From: "A.P.de Visser" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Disput between Man and his Ba Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 15:06:07 +0200 Hallo Timofey and other members This is a very difficult part of the text.. May I suggest some other translations: <23> wDa wi DHwty May Thoth judge me <23> Htp <24> nTr.w xsf xnsw Hr=i who appeases the gods; may Chonsu defend me <25> sS=i ( why < zXA=i >?) m mAat sDm ra mdw<26>=i who is a scribe in truth; may Ra listen to my speech <26>sg(.w) wiA xsf <27> isdes Hr=i who calms the sacred barque,while Isdes defends me N.B. I could not find much abou t this god, only that he belongs to the less important deities. <28> I could not find a reasonable solution for this sentence. < 29> fa.n=f n=i nDm xsf<30> nTr.w StA.w X.t=i he bore for me ( refers probably to <28>).It is pleasant when the gods drive out the secrets of my body. Please give comments on this! Kind regards Bram de Visser ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba (nHpw) Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 21:39:17 +1000 Returning to nHpw in column 16, a few comments on the hieratic by Jon Hirst: >The mysterious glyph could of course be a badly created "t", unusual for this papyrus. >This would give nHtw - also giving "praisers or prayers" (female) >- loosely mourners, although not usually written this way. >The only translation I can find for nHpw is "potter's wheel" which is certainly wrong. >(The last consonant is) definitely "w" (G43) >The mysterious glyph is not "p", which is written as a short horizontal with 3 >(occasionally 2) vertical strokes on top of it, throughout the papyrus. Whatever it is, it appears to mean 'mourners' or 'those who praise', which fits the context well. Jenny ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 24 May 2004 10:06:10 +0300 From: Elena Moltchanova Subject: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Greetings AEL:ers, I've been lurking for a while and I am really enjoying the current discussion of the text. You are doing a great work and I promise to join quiet soon with a regular translation. For now, however, I would just like to share a few thoughts. . 1. In line <6> "iw grt wr r aba" have been translated by many as "It is more than boasting" or "It is worse than boasting". I admit I cannot make sense of this translation. Does the man mean that he is not exaggerating and his soul really is ignoring him. Or what other meaning of "boasting" might he have in mind? 2. I have translated the following: <15> tk(n)=f im=i hrw qsnt <16> aHa=f m pf gs mi iri nHpw as May he be near me in the day of trouble May he stand by this side like a singer does. Can the word "mi" here have the meaning "in the capacity of"? The verb is in subjunctive and may thus express a wish. Does the day of trouble actually mean the day of death? So the man is exhorting his soul to remain by his side and not leave him. In which case maybe "a mourner" suggested by Stephen is a good option. Or can it be that the man asks his soul = his courage not to leave him in the day of trouble, in which case "a singer" (uplifting his spirit) is a better choice? 3. snDm <20> n=i imnt I can see the logic behind the translation in the imperative but can this also be a case of VdS construction? In this case the translation could be either stative: "The West is pleasing to me" or subjunctive: "May the West be (made) pleasing to me". The second probably makes more sense: the speaker wants to see death as an acceptable "pleasant" state. Awaiting your comments, Elena Moltchanova ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 09:41:29 +0300 From: Elena Moltchanova Subject: AEL Dispute between Man and his Ba (20-28) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Hello AEL:ers, Here are my two eurocents. :-) snDm [20] n=i imnt. in iw qsnt. pw pXrt May the West be (made) pleasing to me. Is it troublesome? * in the first sentence VdS word order. The verb snDm is probably in subjunctive. [21] anx iw xt xr=sn. xntD r=k Life is a transition. The trees - they fall. (As for you -) [22] Hr isft. wAH mAir=i Tread upon falsehood. Set aside my miseries. * The sentence "xntD r=k Hr isft" is similar to the one in Allen p. 192: "sDm r=k n=i" literally translated as "listen, with respect to yourself, to me." r=k comes after the imperative verb and doesn't actually need to be translated. [23] wda wi dHwti. Htp May the Thoth judge me * the word wda also has a meaning 'to discern' [24] nTr(w). xzf xnsw Hr=i May the gods be pleased. May Khonsu protect me from myself * I am not sure if this is a right translation. Wilkinson's "The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancienc Egypt" mentions several different aspects of Khonsu. One of them is "decider of the life span". Maybe this is the aspect which the speaker has in mind here. [25]zhA=i mAat. sDm ra mDw=i May I write the truth. May Ra hear my words. * The first sentence may also be transcribed as "zhAw mAat", but then it's difficult to translate. Judging from the sentences before and after it is reasonable to expect a subjunctive VsoSO construction. Therefore zhA=i mAat seems a logical possibility. [26] zg(=i) wiA. xzf [27] isdz Hr=i m at - DSrt May the sacred bark carry me (?) May (god?) protect me from myself in the Holy Chamber. Faulkner gives the meaning of 'zg' as 'to command (the bark)' with this text as the only source. Does anybody know of any other sources or meanings for this word. In any case since (=i) is missing I am not sure that this is the right translation. Assuming the scribe has made no errors, the sacred bark "wiA" is the subject of the sentence, in which case zg cannot be translated 'to command (the bark)'. (because then the subject would come before the verb, i believe). Budge mentions word "zgat" = "to carry round" (Canopus Decree). I am not sure which god's/goddess' name is spelt this way. The closest I found is in Budge, where he says that 'istnnw' is a form of Thoth. (in the Festival song of Isis and Nephtys). BTW if anybody could point me to a good resource on the hierogliphic spelling of various god's names I would be very grateful. cheers, Elena Moltchanova ============================================================================== From: "Marianne Luban" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: RE: AEL Coptic Wizards Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 11:47:34 -0700 >From: "Ronald Galloway" > (snip) >Once again I mean no offence, but it seems you have very little practical >understanding of Coptic as you took oude ("nor") and han ("some") as nouns. >I don't know what materials you are using to learn Coptic, but if you don't >have it, I suggest you start with Lambdin's Introduction to Sahidic Coptic >for a good, basic background. Also, you may wish to stay away from Bohairic >texts (such as this text from Daniel) for the time being as you really need >to understand Sahidic before moving on to later stages of the language. >Lambdin's grammar has basic exercises, reading texts, and so forth, and >includes keys to the exercises. > I found my book. It is called "An Elementary Coptic Grammar of the Sahidic Dialect" by C. C. Walters. Looking through it again, I see that I had remembered its points pretty well (It is only about 80 pages, anyway, including exercises) but can find nothing about "han" or "oude". Does Lambdin explain these? It is a pretty expensive grammar so I'd like to find out more before I invest in it. How many pages? Does it go into things that might be found in texts of other dialects, like Bohairic, as well? Marianne Luban ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 21:48:39 +1000 Hi Elena, >1. In line <6> "iw grt wr r aba" have been translated by many as "It is more than boasting" or "It is worse than boasting". I admit I cannot make sense of this translation. Does the man mean that he is not exaggerating and his soul really is ignoring him. Or what other meaning of "boasting" might he have in mind? < # The way I see it, the man feels that being ignored is worse than the opposite, which would be exaggerating or boasting about his achievements. 2. >May he be near me in the day of trouble >May he stand by this side like a singer does. >Can the word "mi" here have the meaning "in the capacity of"? The verb is in subjunctive and may thus express a wish. Does the day of trouble actually mean the day of death? So the man is exhorting his soul to remain by his side and not leave him. In which case maybe "a mourner" suggested by Stephen is a good option. Or can it be that the man asks his soul = his courage not to leave him in the day of trouble, in which case "a singer" (uplifting his spirit) is a better choice?< # I think he is asking that the soul be like one who would sing his praises. This is more positive than simply mourning his death. To be happy that he is going to the west where all his troubles will disappear. Day of trouble, day of pain, day of misfortune, or perhaps simply 'the difficult day.' This would be the day of judgment before the 42 gods in the Hall of Maet. Is the day of judgment the same day as his day of death, or is it his day of burial? I think probably burial, when the spells inscribed on the coffin come into effect as he passes through the underworld on his way to the Field of Reeds. 3. >snDm <20> n=i imnt I can see the logic behind the translation in the imperative but can this also be a case of VdS construction? In this case the translation could be either stative: "The West is pleasing to me" or subjunctive: "May the West be (made) pleasing to me". The second probably makes more sense: the speaker wants to see death as an acceptable "pleasant" state.< # snDm is a causative verb with the initial radical 's' added to the root verb nDm. So has the meaning 'cause to be sweet', 'sweeten', or 'make pleasant' . He is asking the soul 'to make it more pleasant by being united with him, is that such a difficult thing to do?' Jenny ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 21:43:24 +1000 <23> wDa wi Dhwty Htp <24> nTrw <23> May Thoth, who pacifies the gods, judge me. <24> xsf xnsw Hr=i <25> sS mAat <24> May Khonsu, scribe of truth, defend me. <25> sDm ra mdw <26>=i sg wiA <25> May Ra, who commands the sunboat, hear my words. xsf <27>isds Hr=i m at Dsrt <27> May Isdes defend me in the holy chamber, # I found a few references to Isdes : Spell 155 of the Coffin texts says "I know the souls of the New Moon: they are Osiris, Anubis, and Isdes(10)." (note 10, ie. Thoth.) - Faulkner. Spell 27 Coffin texts: "O Isdes, give speech to N." Budge's dictionary = "one of the company of Thoth." <28> Hr-ntt sAr wdn m [Atpw] <28> because the needy one was weighed down with [a load] <29> fAi.n=f n=i nDm xsf <30> nTrw <29> which he has lifted for me. It is joyful that the gods redress <30> StAw Xt=i Ddt.n n=i <31> bA=i the secrets of my body. What my soul said to me: #I found this rather difficult too. My tentative solution more or less follows Faulkner's. sAr - taking the A1 man as a determinative rather than as a pronoun. Some published translations of 28-30. (Parkinson- "The Tale of Sinuhe and other Ancient Egyptian Tales."): "For my need is pressing, a [weight] he has placed on me. It would be a sweet relief, if the gods drove off the heaviness of my body!" (Faulkner - "The Literature of Ancient Egypt" edited by William Kelly Simpson. "because the needy one is weighed down with [the burden] which he has lifted up from me; it is pleasant that the gods should ward off the secret (thoughts) of my body." (Lichtheim - "Ancient Egyptian Literature, vol 1") "For my suffering is too heavy a burden to be borne by me. May it please that the gods repel my body's secrets." (John A.Wilson - "Egyptian Didactic Tales : A dispute over Suicide" in A.N.E.T. pp.405-7) "My wretchedness is heavy..... Pleasant would be the defense of a god for the secrets of my body." Jenny ============================================================================== From: "A.P.de Visser" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between Man and his Ba (20-28) Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 11:56:36 +0200 As to Elena,s question about <26> zg (I think it has to be sg ) Hannig gives the translation < stoppen> or ,so in English. Hannig uses the same determinative, namely A26. Kind regards Bram de Visser ============================================================================== From: "Jeff Dahl" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: AEL Help with Allen Ch 16 #34 Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 22:20:27 -0500 I'm working through J.P Allen's Chapter 16, exercise 34. Line 3 reads: wab Hr rn.f, twri Hr ank(w).f (I think I have typed this in correctly) Are these two sentences examples of the pseudoverbal construction, and what form are the verbs in? I guess I don't understand the grammar of this line. Thanks for your help, Jeff ============================================================================== From: "Szelog, Mike" To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: RE: AEL Coptic Wizards Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 15:30:46 -0400 I have a copy of Lambdin's grammar - It is specifically for Sa'idic Coptic and is probably one of the best grammars of Sa'idic I've seen. Grammar lessons with exercises and a great reading section at the end. That being said, I'm not overly familiar with Sa'idic - both words you reference are Bohairic. The best place to see and hear Bohairic is on one of the many Coptic sites (I can recommend coptichymns.net - there's some spoken examples as well as, of course, the hymns which are chanted). The only negative comment I have for Lambdin's grammar is that the pronunciation he uses is very "classical" - Sa'idic was probably never pronounced quite the way he describes it. It was most likely pronounced just as the traditional Bohairic was pronounced (i.e. 'eta' is not like Attic Greek /e/, but rather almost like the /=E6/ in "bat" when stressed - unstressed, it's /i/). I have been told the best book for Bohairic (I don't have it - am ordering it, though) is one in English and Arabic entitled, which I don't happen to have the info right at hand - do a search on Amazon.com under Bohairic grammars and the book will come up - I think the author's name is Mathar (?). Bohairic is more the language which is spoken today by those Copts who speak Coptic. There's even a chat room (I can provide the info for that as well, if you'd like). It's on certain days for a few hours and most of the conversation (which is live) is in Bohairic Coptic (both varieties - Greco-Bohairic, and Traditional/Old Bohairic - depending on the speakers). A great way to hear the spoken language(and practice your own Coptic)! Mike S ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 13:48:40 -0300 (ART) From: Jonas Souza Subject: AEL help with ME pronunciation To: aegyptian-l@rostau.org.uk For those who know more about the reconstructed ME phonology than me: I've started to build a small Middle Egyptian dictionary for my website in which I try to show how some of the words were pronounced, giving a coptic example. It is at www.geocities.com/babel1800/dict/dict.htm I would like to hear some opinion about it. It's in Portuguese, but don't mind! Just look at the reconstructions. (better if you have the 'inscribe phonetic' and 'foreign1' fonts) Thanks J. Souza ============================================================================== From: "Timofey" Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between Man and his Ba To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 19:45:50 +0400 How do you do Jenny! How do you do mr. Bram de Visser! Hi Lena, I am glad you join us. Dear mr. Bram de Visser, I really like you translation. I don't notice this clause-play. May I do some supplements: <21> xnd r=k <22> Hr isf.t wAH(.w) mAir=i Tread, you! upon sins who ignores (=ignorant of) my misery! <23> wDa wi DHwty Htp(.w) <24> nTr.w May Thoth judge me who appeases the gods. <23> xsf xnsw Hr=i sS m mAat May Khonsu defend me who is the scribe in truth # Question: Khonsu is the moon-god; I don't see connection with a scribe, you should agree with me that it would make more sense if it were: 'May Thoth judge me who is a scribe in truth' <25> sDm ra mdw<26>=i sg(.w) wiA May Ra listen to my speech who commands the sacred barque <26> xsf <27> is-ds Hr=i (i)m(.y) a.t Dsr.t May Jar-god (Isdes) defend me who is the dweller of holy chamber. # Maybe is-ds translates something like 'Like Jar', I think this god has connection with Khnum who is 'Potter ' god? <28> Hr ntt sAr=i wdn [m...] <29> fAj.n=f n=i nDm because of my heavy need He has presented pleasure to me <29> xsf <30> nTr.w StA.w X.t=i May (other) gods oppose to secret of my body. May (other) gods oppose to my soul. 'Secret of my body' = 'What my body hides' = 'my soul' Do you fill that our guy brings his soul to TRIAL!!! Thoth is a judge. Khonsu with Jar-god are layers. Ra is the listener. Other Gods are prosecutors. <30> Dd.t.n n=i <31> bA=i n ntk is s.i iw=k trj Has been said by my soul to me: You are indeed not a man! You are really... Respect to all AELiers Timofey ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL Help with Allen Ch 16 #34 Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 22:25:19 +1000 Hi Jeff, >I'm working through J.P Allen's Chapter 16, exercise 34. Line 3 reads: >wab Hr rn.f, twri Hr ank(w).f (I think I have typed this in correctly) >Are these two sentences examples of the pseudoverbal construction, and what >form are the verbs in? I guess I don't understand the grammar of this line. The verb form is Imperative. When addressed to more than one person the Imperatives can be written with plural strokes, -'wab' and 'twri'. The particle "Behold" at the beginning of line 4 having the second person plural suffix pronoun (m.Tn) instead of the usual singular (m.k), is another clue to recognizing the plural endings of the Imperative. The 'Hr' is a simple preposition rather than a part of the pseudoverbal construction. m Htp Jenny ============================================================================== From: "Ronald Galloway" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: RE: AEL Coptic Wizards Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 08:35:19 +0000 on 5/25/04 8:47 PM, Marianne Luban wrote: > Does Lambdin explain these? Yes. >It is a pretty expensive grammar so I'd like to find out more before I >invest in it. How many pages? xvii + 377 > Does it go into things that might be found in texts of other dialects, >like Bohairic, as well? There is some basic historical information about the dialects in the introduction, but no, it is not a Bohairic grammar and he does not address any grammatical points regarding it. For that you will need a specialized dialectical grammar, such as Walter Till's Koptische Dialektgrammatik mit Lesestücken und Wörterbuch. I don't know of any scholarly grammar specifically for Bohairic, but if you wanted, I suppose you could get Nabil Mattar's A Study in Bohairic (Hope Publishing House, 1990). This is more for "revival" Bohairic and church usage, rather than historical Bohairic texts. Generally those learning Coptic (at least those with an academic background), first learn Sahidic and then study other dialects based on that, similiar to how you normally learn Middle Egyptian before moving on to Old or Late Egyptian. Hope this helps, Ronald ============================================================================== From: "Marianne Luban" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: RE: AEL help with ME pronunciation Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 10:40:46 -0700 >From: Jonas Souza > >For those who know more about the reconstructed ME phonology than me: >I've started to build a small Middle Egyptian dictionary for my website in >which I try to show how some of the words were pronounced, giving a coptic >example. > >It is at www.geocities.com/babel1800/dict/dict.htm > >I would like to hear some opinion about it. >It's in Portuguese, but don't mind! Just look at the reconstructions. > >(better if you have the 'inscribe phonetic' and 'foreign1' fonts) > One comment (and caveat) that I would have is that Coptic and certain spellings of earlier Egyptian demonstrate that the final /t/ was usually not vocalized. That's why ( jrt.t s.f. leite (*yaratat > copta erote)) jrtt was written with two /t/s--but only the penultimate one survived in pronunciation. Marianne Luban ============================================================================== From: "A.K. Eyma" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL help with ME pronunciation Date: Thu, 27 May 2004 22:34:40 +0200 >It is at www.geocities.com/babel1800/dict/dict.htm > >I would like to hear some opinion about it. >It's in Portuguese, but don't mind! Just look at the reconstructions. > >(better if you have the 'inscribe phonetic' and 'foreign1' fonts) **These fonts are downloadable at the base of the site http://www.geocities.com/babel1800 Not looked at all of them, but a few: jtrw is not Coptic iero but eioor. eiero is 'Nile' = itrw aA yatrVw > ya3rVw > yo3r = eioor (one may differ on details) If pedra means stone: jnr "stone"is Coptic o:ne "stone" 3a:nVr > 3a:nV3 (ini) > 3o:ne Should have O39 Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between Man and his Ba To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: S_Comee@jpf.go.jp Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 16:51:32 +0900 Well, I have been away for a while, and it's about time I try to catch up with Jenny and Timofey and Bram and the others, so I'll start where I left off. I think that I basically agree with what the others have done so far, although I may have phrased it differently. <23> wDa wi DHwty Htp(.w) <24> nTr.w 'May Thoth judge me [as] one who appeases the gods. # At first, I saw these first two sentences as prayers that the gods may serve as witness for what a good man he is, so he is calling upon the gods to judge or defend him *as* one who does what is right, etc. I have added the *as* in brackets, since it does not translate a word in the original Egyptian. But now I am not sure. Does this sentence want to be as I have it, or do you think it should be: 'May Thoth, who appeases the gods, judge me.'??? <23> xsf xnsw Hr=i sS m mAat May Khonsu defend me [as] one who is a scribe in truth. # Note: the son of Amun and Mut of Thebes, Khonsu was regarded not only as a moon god, but also as a god of time and a god of knowledge. It is presumably as a god of knowledge that he is being mentioned in proximity to Thoth and in relation to a scribe. Also, I wonder if *mAat* here might be more than just truth, more like the sense of divine order and harmony, for which reason I have translated it as harmony. And should this sentence be: 'May Khonsu, who is a scribe of Truth, defend me'??? Such a structure would certainly match that of the two following sentences. . . . <25> sDm ra mdw<26>=i sg(.w) wiA May Ra, who commands the sacred barque, hear my words. <26> xsf <27> is-ds Hr=i (i)m(.y) a.t Dsr.t May Isdes, who is the dweller of holy chamber, defend me. # Isdes is the 'lord of the west'. Not only is he is one of the judges of the dead; according to Wb V S. 616, *Dsr.t* is part of the Theban Necropolis. <28> Hr ntt sAr=i wdn [m...] <29> fAi.n=f n=i Because my need weighs heavy [in ???], he carried sweetness to me. # I do not understand what to do with the *m* after *wdn*, or how it relates either to this clause or the next. The next clause seems to be a *sDm.n=f* form with the verb*fAi*, but just WHO is the HE signified by the *=f*? Is the man still talking about Isdes? Does anyone know what this part is talking about??? <29> xsf <30> nTr.w StA.w X.t=i May the gods defend the secrets of my body.' # Wb III S. 335 gives *defend* as one meaning of *xsf.* (This is, of course, the same verb as in line 26 above.) <30> Dd.t.n n=i <31> bA=i n ntk is s iw=k tr <31> anx What my soul said to me: 'Are you not a man? Are you truly alive? # I prefer to translate the relative form *Dd.t* AS a relative form. <31> tp-tr xm=k mHy=k Hr anx <32> mi nb aHa mr.w=i How will you profit by caring about life like a lord who erects my pyramids?' # This part is most perplexing. Faulk (615) give profit as a meaning a *km* as a noun, so I have extrapolated a verbal form, and (243) be concerned (for), take thought (for), ponder (on), care (for) for *mHi* and guardian (god) for *mHy* ---which is how I arrived at my version. What do others think about this line??? Is the part about a 'lord who erects my pyramids' correct?? Might the man be asking the BA how the BA will profit by protecting the man's life??? m Htp, Stephen ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba (line 28) Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 10:19:06 +1000 Stephen: > <28> Hr ntt sAr=i wdn [m...] <29> fAi.n=f n=i > Because my need weighs heavy [in ???], he carried sweetness to me. > # I do not understand what to do with the *m* after *wdn*, or > how it relates either to this clause or the next. The next clause > seems to be a *sDm.n=f* form with the verb*fAi*, but just WHO is the > HE signified by the *=f*? Is the man still talking about Isdes? > Does anyone know what this part is talking about??? I would say yes, he is talking about Isdes. Firstly because this line begins with 'because' so it must logically follow on from the previous line, "May Isdes...(etc)" And secondly because I think the holy chamber refers to the Judgement Hall where the man's heart is weighed in the balance against the feather of Maat. I have a book called "Rebel in the Soul - a sacred text of ancient Egypt" with translation and text by Bika Reed. (Inner Traditions, NY, 1978). (It is of course the Dispute between a Man and his Ba.) She writes: "Isdes, the spiritualised intellect symbolized by a baboon, sits atop the scales of judgment. ......Isdes, the intelligence of the heart, is the baboon sacred to Toth. The man calls upon this baboon to lift the weight from his heart and thus redress the balance in his favour." I wonder if Hr=i might mean 'prepare me'. Faulkner has this meaning on p.176 of his dictionary. The two determinatives he includes having been omitted in our text. That starts to make more sense. <27> May Isdes prepare me for the holy chamber, [...by lifting the weight from my heart.] m Htp Jenny ============================================================================== From: "Thomas Sima" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: RE: AEL help with ME pronunciation Date: Fri, 28 May 2004 15:49:54 -0400 Dear Jonas, Some thoughts on your dictionary: 1. What time period exactly are you trying to reconstruct? By the XVIIIth Dynasty at least we know that the feminine -t endings were already reduced, so your reconstructed phonetic values would need to be altered to reflect that. 2. The hieroglyph j appears to have been both an /a/ and an /i/ sound; that is, some of the words with an initial j may never have had a y- sound. In addition, we know that, even if the j had a 100% correspondence to y- at earlier stages of the language, it most certainly did not by the XVIIIth Dynasty. 3. Do you have any access to Amarna Letter loanwords from Egyptian and Egyptian names? They are quite instructive, although it is best to get a better understanding of Akkadian phonology before drawing too many conclusions from them. For example, the name usually translated as "Pa-wi-ra" could also be "Pa-wu-ra" or even "Pa-wa-ra" because the vowel value is unknown and all three values are possible for the cuneiform symbol used. 4. Do you have access to proper Coptic phonology? The best asset in this department as far as I know is Vergote's Grammaire Copte. In any case, don't use the "accepted" pronunciations given in most grammars (such as Lambdin's) as they are definitely incorrect and incomplete and represent nothing more than an imposition of the Erasmian pronunciation system on Coptic. The Greco-Bohairic is similarly an artificial convention; "traditional" Bohairic seems to be close to the true pronunciation of Coptic, with some minor changes. For example, the pronunciation of the god Amun was most likely /Ama:n/ in the XVIIIth Dynasty, with a shift of the a: to an "aw" sound (as represented by Greek omega, which did not, according to W. Sidney Allen, assume an o: value until sometime around the third century A.D.) which became an "ou" sound in some Coptic dialects, though in other, more conservative dialects it seems to have remained "aw". I hope this was helpful. Best Regards, Tom Sima ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 22:18:48 +0400 From: Len & Jan Bailey Subject: AEL Fw: Fw: translation of name To: List AEL Dear list members, At Akhet-Aten there was a building called Nry Aten. Does this mean "Habitat of the Aten"? regards Jan Bailey ============================================================================== From: "John Colegate" To: Subject: AEL Help with M.E. Pronunciation Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 10:40:34 +0100 Thomas Sima wrote "Do you have any access to Amarna Letter loanwords from Egyptian and Egyptian names? They are quite instructive, although it is best to get a better understanding of Akkadian phonology before drawing too many conclusions from them....." Does anyone know where these names from the Amarna Letters (and from Ramesside documents, etc. in Akkadian) are available on the internet or in a book (currently in print), in concise form, (i.e a document that contains all or a number of such references to the names and their Akkadian cuneiform renderings)?. Thanks to anyone who can help with this. John C. ============================================================================== From: "A.P.de Visser" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between Man and his Ba Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 11:37:57 +0200 Some remarks about Stephens translation of <31> and <32>: ptr (not ) km=k mHy=k Hr anx mi nb aHa=w Faulkner gives for in the plural form ( the pyramid-sign included) . So here is my attempt: < What do you win when you care for life like a wealthy man? > =Is a future tense or is it an active participle(but with a suffix=k this is not usual?) kind regards Bram ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 22:48:24 +1000 Still thinking about the passage where he appeals to the gods. Why the different constructions? "May Thoth..." uses the dependant pronoun for the Object. Khonsu and Isdes... use preposition and suffix pronoun. Is this a case of honourific transposition, placing the god's names before the pronominal object? Ra... the basic VSO I wrote: >I wonder if Hr=i might mean 'prepare me'. Faulkner has this meaning on p.176 of his >dictionary. The two determinatives he includes having been omitted in our text. oops! I forgot for a moment about the 'xsf' on the previous line, so I guess I can rule that idea out. Continuing... <31> n ntk is s iw=k tr <31>Are you not a man? Are you really Negation of nominal sentence. According to Allen: nj A is B. Where nj and is stand either side of the first noun (A) or in this case the independent pronoun. "You are not a man." Gardiner says 'is' sometimes marks an interrogative tone. "Are you not a man?" In the light of the rest of this retort by the Ba, I think it should be translated as a question. tr - interrogative enclitic particle used only in questions, inside the sentence, after the first word. 'tr' is not translated though can mean actually, or really. <32> anx(t) ptr km=k mHy=k Hr anx <32> alive? What do you profit if you are concerned (anxious) about life # mHy - Why the 'y' ending? ---subjunctive? <33> mi nb aHaw Dd=i n Sm=i <33> like a lord of riches? I said: I cannot go #That pyramid sign (O24) could be M35 instead.. which gives aHaw = heaps, wealth, riches. (It makes more sense than "like a lord attending my tomb".) # n Sm=i - negation of the Perfect (?) <34> iw nfA r tA nHmn tw Hr tfyt nn Those are to the earth.(?) Surely you are running away. <35> nwt=k xnri nb Hr Dd You will not be cared for. Every criminal says: ....... m Htp Jenny ==============================================================================