From: "Morrison" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language" Subject: AEL Allen's Middle Egyptian Grammar Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 22:24:54 +0930 Dear List Members, A group of us in South Australia have been studying Egyptian Language from Collier and Manley's book, and were intending to move on to James Allen's Middle Egyptian Grammar. Some of us already have copies of the book, but when others recently made enquiries, at least two Australian booksellers said that it is currently out of print, and a reprint is still being considered. Is anyone able to confirm this? If anyone knows of an Australian bookseller who currently has copies of the book actually in stock, I would appreciate their contact details, so I can pass them on to other members of our hieroglyph study group. Thanks, Anne Morrison ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 08:40:04 -0400 From: Brian Subject: Re: AEL Greatly confused over 13th dynas To: Ancient Egyptian Language List << See my other reply regarding Tutimaios. I may be able to extract Ryholt's chronology of these periods over the weekend. >> A summary of Ryholt's chronology of the Second Intermediate Period is now available on my website, http://www.yare.org . Please select Ancient History | Chronology to get to the appropriate area. Please be aware that Ryholt is quite open and honest about the assumptions he has made, which include fitting in all the data into an Old Chronology (Sothic dating, etc.) setting. The order of the kings is more likely to be accurate than the reign lengths and dates IMHO. Brian Yare ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 08:40:01 -0400 From: Brian Subject: Re: AEL hieroglyphs vs. hieratic writing To: Ancient Egyptian Language List << I fyou can lay hands on it I recommend Ancient Egyptian Calligraphy A beginners guide to writing hieroglyphs by Henry George Fischer Metropolitan Museum of Art ISBN 0-87099-337-2. It shows in details how = to write the hieroglyphs >> I bought this at Cybele in Paris a couple of weeks ago. About FF250 IIRC, and very very clearly written. When I get a round tuit I'll post a review, and maybe a short extract, on my website. Brian Yare ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 15:34:43 +0200 Subject: AEL Karnak, being a harem ??? From: "andre.malahov-dombasle@nomade.fr" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Dear all ! I have noticed that a word for "(royal) harem" ("ipA.t ((n)sw.t)" [(M23)-X1:O46-O1]) and the city name of Karnak ("ipA.t s.wt" [O46:X1+O1-Q1-Q1-Q1-X1-O49]) have the same stem, that of "ipA.t". As far as I know, in Karnak there is only one temple of a feminine deity - that of Mut, Amon's consort. Others are of masculine deities - Amon's, Horus', Ptah's, Montou's. I remember Karnak was called the "divine harem". How can it be explained ? Also I do not understand the role of 3 Q1's. If one interprets the plural form of Q1 as an apposition, one gets "a harem, consisting of several thrones". If one supposes that "s.t" symbolises a deity, it would be written on the first place (inversion). I am lost here. Thanks in advance, Andre Malahov-Dombasle ------------------- L'e-mail gratuit pas comme les autres. Pour cr=E9er votre adresse : http://www.nomade.fr/courrier/ouvrir.asp NOMADE.FR, pourquoi chercher ailleurs ? ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 09:23:29 -0400 From: Brian Subject: Re: AEL hieroglyphs vs. hieratic writing To: Ancient Egyptian Language List << I bought this at Cybele in Paris a couple of weeks ago. About FF250 IIRC, and very very clearly written. When I get a round tuit I'll post a review, and maybe a short extract, on my website. >> In view of the less than flattering views of someone else on the list, I looked at Fischer again over a couple of pints of Marstons Pedigree at lunchtime. While I still like the book, it could be a lot better, and GBP25 does seem OTT. Brian Yare ============================================================================== From: UrHekau@aol.com Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:34:57 EDT Subject: Re: AEL Transliteration of passage from Thutmose III stela? To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk In a message dated 4/23/01 5:17:45 AM Central Daylight Time, ReKhepera@aol.com writes: > Can a list subscriber please supply me with the transliteration (minus number > > coding or fonts I lack) for the following passage, found on the Gebel Barkal > > stela of Thutmose III? > > Thank you. > > Daniel Harnan > > Then my majesty established my stela upon that mountain of Naharin by > carving out in mountain stone on the western side of the Euphrates: My >opponents do not exist in the southern lands, the northerners come bowing to my >might. aHa.n Hn.f s-mn.n Hn.f wd.j Hr dw pf n nhrn m Sd m dw Hr gs imnt pXAr wr mw; nn rqy(w).j m tAw rsw; w(DA)w mHtjw m ksw n bAw.j > It is Ra who commanded it for me. As I enclosed that which his eye has > encircled, so he has given me the land in its length and width since I bound > together nine bows the islands in the middle of the sea, the Aegean islands > and the rebellious lands in ra wd.st xr.j arf.n.j Snj ntw n Axwtj.f (?), dj.n.f n.j tA m Aw.f wsx.f dmA.n.j pDtjw psD , jA w Hrj ibw nw wD wr HAw nbw bStt This is the best I can do with the passage. Corrections are welcome. Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 11:39:55 +1000 From: Jenny Carrington To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Transliteration of passage from Thutmose III stela? >Gebel Barkal stela of Thutmose III The hieroglyphic text is in de Bucks Egyptian Readingbook, p. 56-63. This passage on p.58. lines 6-9. There is an English translation in Egyptian Historical Records of the Later Eighteenth Dynasty Fascicle I, by Barbara Cumming. Aris and Phillips. 1982 >Then my majesty established my stela upon that mountain of Naharin by carving out in mountain stone on the western side of the Euphrates aHa.n smn.n Hm=i wD=i Hr Dw pf n nhrn m Sd m Dw Hr gs imnty pXr-wr >My opponents do not exist in the southern lands, the northerners come bowing to my might. nn rqy=i m tAw rsw iw mHt(y)w m ksw n bAw=i >It is Ra who commanded it for me. in ra wD st xr=i >As I enclosed that which his eye has encircled, so he has given me the land in its length and width since I bound together nine bows, the islands in the middle of the sea, the Aegean islands and the rebellious lands. arf.n=i Snt n Axt=f rdi.n=f n=i tA m Aw=f wsx=f dmA.n=i psDt(-pDwt) iww Hry-ibw nw wAD-wr HAw-nbw xAswt bStt m Htp Jenny Carrington carrington@impulse.net.au http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Nook/7916/ArtWorks.html ============================================================================== From: "Enrique J Perez" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Allen's Middle Egyptian Grammar Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 22:28:29 -0700 Did you try Amazon.com? They might still have it available. Also, University of California, Berkeley uses the book. You might contact the university bookstore to see if they still have any copies on their shelves. It is currently in use for a current extension class (I am in it!). Enrique -----Original Message----- From: Morrison To: Ancient Egyptian Language Date: Monday, April 23, 2001 3:54 PM Subject: AEL Allen's Middle Egyptian Grammar >--- See http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ for AEL resources. >--- Copyright in the following belongs to the undersigned. >--- To reply privately, send to ianannem@senet.com.au > >Dear List Members, > >A group of us in South Australia have been studying Egyptian Language >from Collier and Manley's book, and were intending to move on to James >Allen's Middle Egyptian Grammar. Some of us already have copies of the >book, but when others recently made enquiries, at least two Australian >booksellers said that it is currently out of print, and a reprint is >still being considered. Is anyone able to confirm this? If anyone knows >of an Australian bookseller who currently has copies of the book >actually in stock, I would appreciate their contact details, so I can >pass them on to other members of our hieroglyph study group. > >Thanks, > >Anne Morrison > ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 07:06:33 -0600 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: charley rhodes Subject: Re: AEL Allen's Middle Egyptian Grammar Try Bibliofind online. They will be able to locate potential sources for the book even if it is out of print. c.rhodes ============================================================================== Subject: Re: AEL Allen's Middle Egyptian Grammar Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 10:47:12 -0400 From: Michael G Smith To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" There is another website I have found that does an excellent job locating out-of-print books and booksellers that have them. It is: www.abebooks.com They have located books for me that I could find nowhere else, including Amazon.com and Borders.com. Michael Smith ============================================================================== From: "Michael Tilgner" To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL Stelas as trees? Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 22:44:46 +0200 Daniel Harnan wrote: >> I have found some instance of stelas apparently being referred to as trees. In one case (the of the Hatshepsut obelisk), the term "ashet-tree" is used. Alas, I have not be able to discern the meaning of ashet. Is there indeed evidence for the stela being a symbolic representation of a tree? >> the Ished tree is mentioned on the North face of the Hatshepsut obelisk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/Hatshepsut/north_face.gif [I repeat my posting of June 27, 1999 to AEL, week 124]: >> Line 2 s.mn.n it=s imn rn=s wr mAa.t-kA-ra Hr iSd Spsy "Her father Amun made to endure/perpetuated her great name Maat-ka-Re on the noble Ished-tree" Line 3 gn.wt=s m HH.w n.w rnp.wt "(and) her annals in (for) millions of years (= for an infinite number of years)" << Katherine Griffis wrote a contribution on the ished tree for EEF: http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/4482/Ished.html Some additional remarks: IDENTIFICATION It seems that the ished tree is not identified with the "Mimusops Schimperi Hochst" (persea tree) any longer, but with "Balanites aegyptiaca Del." [1] But I do not know whether the discussion is over now ... ILLUSTRATIONS A list of illustrations and ancient Egyptian texts about the ished tree is given and analyzed in [2]. The illustration from Erman's book in Katherine's contribution can also be found in [4]. A wonderful detail of this plate is in [5]. A photograph may easily be found in [3], which is the upper Karnak drawing in Katherine's article. Jenny Carrington made a painting of her own of this scene: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Nook/7916/ArtWorks.html SPLITTING THE ISHED TREE The ished tree is dealt with in Spell 17 of BD: "I am that great Cat who split the ished-tree on its side in Heliopolis on that night of making war on behalf of those who warded off the rebels and on that day in which were destroyed the enemies of the Lord of All. What does it mean? As for that Cat, he is Re himself ... As for the splitting of the ished-tree on its side in Heliopolis, it was when the Children of Impotence carried out what they did." [6] Spell 125: "I have seen the dividing of the ished-tree in Rosetjau ..." [7] The vignette is showing the Great Cat near the ished tree destroying the snake Apophis. [e.g. 8] The term "Children of Impotence" is obviously a general designation for the enemies of Re as may be concluded from the vignette. But what is the meaning of the "splitting of the ished tree"? ORIGINS Katherine wrote: >> Redford points out this motif scene begins with the Middle Kingdom Period: "It is not without significance that this most popular scene appears first in the 12th Dynasty. >> Welvaert argues [9] that the ished-tree was introduced into an older type of legitimation scenes by Thutmosis I. "He tried to proof his bond with Sesostris I by a divine intervention, a sign of the gods", namely by writing of both their names on the leaves of the tree of the creator-god to whom every Egyptian ruler owes his kingship. Welvaert cites recent (1972) findings of fragments of such a scene. NOTES [1] Sylvia Schoske, "'Anch' - Blumen fuer das Leben. Pflanzen im alten Aegypten" [Ankh - Flowers for Life. Plants in Ancient Egypt], Munich, 1992, p. 11 [2] Wolfgang Helck, Ramessidische Inschriften aus Karnak [Ramesside inscriptions from Karnak], ZAeS, vol. 82, pp. 98-140, section: "Die Szene des Aufschreibens des Namens auf dem iSd-Baum" [The scene of writing down the name on the ished tree], pp. 117-140 [3] Kazimierz Michalowski, Karnak, Praeger, 1970, fig. 27 (Thanks to Jenny Carrington who pointed me to this illustration). [4] Jean-Francois Champollion, Monument de l'Egypte et de la Nubie, vol. IV, Paris, 1845 (reprint edition of reduced size, Geneva, 1972), pl. CCCXXXIV - caption: "Rhamesseion, au fond d'une salle interieure du palais") [5] Francois-Xavier Hery, Thierry Enel, L'univers de l'Egypte ressuscite par Champollion, Aix-en-Provence, 1992, p. 42 [6] Raymond O. Faulkner, The Ancient Egyptian Book of the Dead, London, 1993, p. 48. Similar CT IV, 282-291. [7] l.c., p. 32 [8] Evelyn Rossiter, Die aegyptischen Totenbuecher [The Egyptian Books of the Dead], n.d., p. 89 [9] Eric Welvaert, On the Origin of the Ished-Scene, GM 151, pp. 101-107, 1996. The author added additional references to Helck's list [2]. ============================================================================== From: SAMUEL E KIMPTON To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Allen's Middle Egyptian Grammar Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 17:32:22 -0700 Try Oxbow Books or the David Brown Book Company as well! If all else fails there is also bibliofind.com. Sam Kimpton ============================================================================== From: SAMUEL E KIMPTON To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Allen's Middle Egyptian Grammar Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 17:36:52 -0700 I also forgot to mention. Allen's Grammar is available from Amazon.com and the hardback edition may be obtained for less than the paperback. Good luck; I think Allen did a great job with his grammar. Sam Kimpton ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 21:30:45 -0700 From: "Sheldon Gosline" To: aegyptian-l@rostau.demon.co.uk Cc: Brian_Yare@compuserve.com Subject: Re: AEL hieroglyphs vs. hieratic writing You should note that while Fischer's book can tell you how MODERN Egyptologists standardly transcribe the more common hieroglyphic signs, this book has little or nothing to do with either ancient hieroglyphs or hieratic. Regards, S L Gosline, Hieratic Font Project > > ><< I fyou can lay hands on it I recommend Ancient Egyptian Calligraphy >A beginners guide to writing hieroglyphs by Henry George Fischer >Metropolitan Museum of Art ISBN 0-87099-337-2. It shows in details how >to write the hieroglyphs >> > >I bought this at Cybele in Paris a couple of weeks ago. About FF250 >IIRC, and very very clearly written. When I get a round tuit I'll post >a review, and maybe a short extract, on my website. > >Brian Yare > > ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 03:49:21 -0400 From: Brian Subject: Re: AEL Greatly confused over 13th dynas To: Ancient Egyptian Language List << A summary of Ryholt's chronology of the Second Intermediate Period is now available on my website, http://www.yare.org . Please select Ancient History | Chronology to get to the appropriate area. >> I've added Ryholt's attestations as to the two Dedumoses. They are linked from the 16th Dynasty part of the above-mentioned chronology table. A link to download the "transliteration italic" font is also provided for PC users. I've also included a page of links to e-mail lists, including this one. Brian Yare ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 05:01:53 -0400 From: Brian Subject: Re: AEL Allen's Middle Egyptian Grammar To: Ancient Egyptian Language List << Try Oxbow Books or the David Brown Book Company as well! If all else fails there is also bibliofind.com. >> Cybele (in Paris) had several copies in stock a couple of weeks ago - check their website too. Brian Yare ============================================================================== From: "Thomas Sima" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Allen's Middle Egyptian Grammar Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:04:39 -0400 I'm not sure how many copies they have left, but the last time I was at the Metropolitan Museum of Art (I live in New York), there were something like four copies in their bookstore. Their website is metmuseum.org - you can't just buy the books online but they have phone numbers listed so you could place your order over the phone. All the best, Thomas Sima ============================================================================== From: ReKhepera@aol.com Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 13:57:59 EDT Subject: AEL Name/title iAHy? To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk I have found in an Egyptian word-list a "name/title" iAHy. Does anyone know to whom this title was applied? Thank you. Daniel Harnan ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 17:29:21 -0100 From: "Oscar H. Blayton" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL words relating to mathematics I am trying to find the different AEL words for "mathematics" and any other words dealing with concepts relating to mathematical functions. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Oscar H. Blayton ============================================================================== From: SAMUEL E KIMPTON To: Subject: AEL Zeitschrift fur Aegyptishe Sprache Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 23:59:38 -0700 Does anyone have information pertaining to the Zeitschrift fur Aegyptische Sprach. Specifically contact and subscription information? I tried accessing the website but the URL was either false or it was down. Thanks for your help! Sam Kimpton ============================================================================== From: "Ulla Poulsen" To: "AEL" Subject: AEL Help with translation Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 10:41:02 +0200 Could someone please help me with a translation of the following: (he is) the mountain who keeps away the storm when the heaven rages is the title slayer of lords translated as ski nbw? thank you very much Ulla Poulsen dragonlady@email.dk ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 09:35:18 +0000 From: "Dominic R. Scales" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Zeitschrift fur Aegyptishe Sprache SAMUEL E KIMPTON wrote: >=20 > --- See http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ for AEL resources. > --- Copyright in the following belongs to the undersigned. > --- To reply privately, send to bessel@europa.com >=20 > Does anyone have information pertaining to the > Zeitschrift fur Aegyptische Sprach. Specifically > contact and subscription information? I tried > accessing the website but the URL was either > false or it was down. >=20 > Thanks for your help! >=20 > Sam Kimpton Hi Sam, here's the info you are looking for. Regards, Dominic ------- Zeitschrift f=FCr =C4gyptische Sprache und Altertumskunde=20 (http://www.akademie-verlag.de/journals/2234.htm) Herausgeber: Elke Blumenthal, Erik Hornung=20 Erscheint in 2 Heften pro Jahr=20 Jahresabonnement (Inland): DM 258,-=20 Jahresabonnement (Ausland): DM 270,-=20 Jahresabonnement zum Vorzugspreis f=FCr Studenten (Inland): DM 102,-=20 Jahresabonnement zum Vorzugspreis f=FCr Studenten (Ausland): DM 110,-=20 Einzelheft: DM 148,-=20 Jeweils zzgl. Versandkosten Die "Zeitschrift f=FCr =C4gyptische Sprache und Altertumskunde", das =E4l teste =E4gyptologische Fachorgan, umfa=DFt das gesamte Gebiet der =C4gyptologie einschlie=DFlich der Demotistik und die Nachbardisziplinen Koptologie und Meroitistik.=20 Die Aufs=E4tze und Miszellen gelten der Sprache, Geschichte, Religion, Kunst und materiellen Kultur des antiken Niltals, den Wirkungen des alten =C4gypten auf Mitwelt und Nachwelt sowie der Geschichte der =C4gyptologie. The "Zeitschrift f=FCr =C4gyptische Sprache und Altertumskunde" is the oldest egyptological journal, it covers the whole field of Egyptology including Demotic, Coptic and Meroitic studies. The contributions examine the language, history, religion, art and, material culture of the ancient Nile valley. In addition, they deal with the history of Egyptology and with Egypt?s influence on contemporaneous cultures and ist revival in modern civilizations. Redaktionsanschrift: Frau Professor=20 Dr. Elke Blumenthal=20 Universit=E4t Leipzig=20 =C4gyptologisches Institut, =C4gyptisches Museum=20 Schillerstra=DFe 6=20 04109 Leipzig=20 Tel. (0341) 973 70 10=20 FAX (0341) 973 70 29 --=20 Dipl. Phys. Dominic R. Scales | Aero-Sensing Radarsysteme GmbH Tel: +49 (0)8153-90 88 90 | c/o DLR Oberpfaffenhofen Fax: +49 (0)8153-908 700 | 82234 Wessling, Germany WWW: aerosensing.de | email: Dominic.Scales@aerosensing.de ============================================================================== From: "Branko" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Allen's Middle Egyptian Grammar Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 22:47:56 +0200 Try obtaining the book from the Publisher itself - Cambridge University Press online bookshop. For hardback edition: http://uk.cambridge.org/order/WebBook.asp?ISBN=0521653126 or paperback edition: http://uk.cambridge.org/order/WebBook.asp?ISBN=0521774837 They state all are still available. Good luck. Branimir Cucek Zagreb, Croatia ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 13:16:36 +0300 From: Elena Moltchanova Subject: AEL translating texts To: "AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk" Dear AEL:ers! Thank you for such an enthusiastic response on my hieroglyphics-hieratic query. I find hieratic fascinating and I am going to study it, but for now I am using cursive hieroglyphs. I am finally sure, that I will be able to read my own scribblings later, even if nobody else will 8oP I am moving on slowly but steadily through the Allen's Grammar.I will undoubtedly need to reread it at least 10 times, but anyway I can feel some progress. So in a couple of month I would like to try myself at reading the 'real' texts. I have ordered Faulkner's dictionary. I have found many texts on the AEL-site and I have got several books by Budge published by Dover. (I have heard that they are very outdated and often inadequate, but I have _already_ got them plus I am going to spend my summer in a place, where Internet access is not as easily available as it is to me now). So my first question concerns Budge: are there many inaccuracies in his copies? I know that his translations are often very inaccurate, but right now I am more interested in the usability of hieroglyphic texts. Secondly, I suppouse everyone has his/her own methods of reading a text. Could you please give some hints. I find it difficult that Egyptians didn't separate sentences or words in either way. I have studied Chinese, where they don't separate words either, but there is no phonogram-ideogram duality like in Egyptian, so you don't need to wonder to which word the sign belongs. Do you start by searching out familiar words, or certain determinatives or do you just start 'decoding' from the very beginning sign by sign? Also the order of the words in AE is very unusual for me, but I suppouse I will just get used to it after some time. Best regards, Elena Moltchanova ============================================================================== From: ReKhepera@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 11:01:27 EDT Subject: AEL HAy-kAR title/name? To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk I have found a HAy-kAR in an University of Michigan word-list, where it is defined as "who is behind the shrine". Can anyone tell me to whom this name/title was applied? Was it a priestly rank? Thank you. Daniel Harnan ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 20:31:06 +0100 Subject: Re: AEL translating texts Hi, > So my first question concerns Budge: are there many inaccuracies in his > copies? I know that his translations are often very inaccurate, but > right now I am more interested in the usability of hieroglyphic texts. Probably the most useful aspect of his books are the hieroglyphic texts themselves. His transliterations and translations of the texts are considered to be quite poor by today's standards. Our understanding of ancient Egyptian has advanced greatly since Budge's day. There is an interesting summary by Geoff Graham of the usefulness Budge's books in general at: http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/faq/week108_budge.txt Mark Wilson. ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 08:40:02 +0200 Subject: Re: AEL translating texts From: "andre.malahov-dombasle@nomade.fr" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk ---------- Initial message ----------- > I am moving on slowly but steadily through the Allen's Grammar.I will > undoubtedly need to reread it at least 10 times, but anyway I can feel > some progress. > So in a couple of month I would like to try myself at reading the 'real' > texts. I have ordered Faulkner's dictionary. I have found many texts on > the AEL-site and I have got several books by Budge published by Dover. > (I have heard that they are very outdated and often inadequate, but I > have _already_ got them plus I am going to spend my summer in a place, > where Internet access is not as easily available as it is to me now). Dear Elena ! While you are struggling through the thickets of the Egyptian, you can now begin reading texts. "The autobiography of Weni" and "Westcar Papirys" (Texts Menu) are supplied with all sorts of commentaries and vocabulary. As it is in every language, accumulating lexics is to be started at the earliest stage possible. > So my first question concerns Budge: are there many inaccuracies in his > copies? I know that his translations are often very inaccurate, but > right now I am more interested in the usability of hieroglyphic texts. The real value of Budge is hieroglyphique reproduction but one should not rely on his transliterations and translations (see numerous messages to list). > Secondly, I suppouse everyone has his/her own methods of reading a text. > Could you please give some hints. I find it difficult that Egyptians > didn't separate sentences or words in either way. I have studied > Chinese, where they don't separate words either, but there is no > phonogram-ideogram duality like in Egyptian, so you don't need to wonder > to which word the sign belongs. Do you start by searching out familiar > words, or certain determinatives or do you just start 'decoding' from > the very beginning sign by sign? Also the order of the words in AE is > very unusual for me, but I suppouse I will just get used to it after > some time. Let me explain what I do. First I look if there are familiar words or phrases or common abbreviations or titles, then I locate the common determinatives, but one has to be careful here - quite often a single determinative stands for the whole word. Sometimes these determinatives have Z1, sometimes not. Then I look for plural forms and common prepositions ("n", "m", "r"). Then I try to decipher if what follows those prepositions are nouns or not. Usually after that I get the sleketon of the phrase and then I finish it by identifying the remaining words. Regards, Andre Malahov-Dombasle ------------------- L'e-mail gratuit pas comme les autres. Pour cr=E9er votre adresse : http://www.nomade.fr/courrier/ouvrir.asp NOMADE.FR, pourquoi chercher ailleurs ? ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 12:26:23 -0700 From: sfryer@prcn.org (Stephen Fryer) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL translating texts Mark Wilson wrote: > > So my first question concerns Budge: are there many inaccuracies in his > > copies? I know that his translations are often very inaccurate, but > > right now I am more interested in the usability of hieroglyphic texts. > > Probably the most useful aspect of his books are the hieroglyphic > texts themselves. His transliterations and translations of the texts > are considered to be quite poor by today's standards. Our > understanding of ancient Egyptian has advanced greatly since > Budge's day. For texts that were originally in hieroglyphs (inscriptions, etc.) he is maybe reasonably relaiable, but for things transcribed from hieratic he can be, at best, misleading and frequently just plain wrong. At least that is the case for what I have been able to check. And don't trust his translations as far as you can throw them! -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: Aegyptou@aol.com Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 18:58:30 EDT Subject: AEL Budge & Beyond To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk In a message dated 4/26/01 1:33:53 PM Central Daylight Time, markw@rostau.demon.co.uk writes: << http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/faq/week108_budge.txt >> A very useful reference. Tangential to the question of Budge, does anyone know if someone has published and gone on record as to the reliability in general of the Description d'Egypte? Ideally, this would include not only the recording of texts prior to understanding them, but also lost monuments of art and architecture, Egyptian as well as Classical. Thanks, JHS ============================================================================== From: "H.V. and Eileen Shultz" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL translating texts Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 17:39:59 -0700 Hello AEL People, In researching Net (Neith) I've been reading Budge for the broad over view of everything under the sun about this ancient deity... but is there someone who can point me to a more recent translation or understanding of texts mentioning this Goddess? She's the one who arbitrated the Horus and Set disagreement over the right of inheritance. I'm hoping to find connections to Aseneth the daughter of the Priest of On referred to in the texts relating the story of Joseph (Ben Jacob) in Genesis. Thank you for any help, Hercel Shultz >From the Southern California Sand Dunes Brawley California ============================================================================== From: "H.V. and Eileen Shultz" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Budge & Beyond Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 05:07:40 -0700 JHS, Looking at the art renditions done by Napoleons expedition of the monuments, statues, and other presently available items depicted, the result is either right on or it is pretty much (as even a group of 12 year olds once said, "Goofy looking.") Compare some structures drawn by the French with water colors (Lithographs) by the British artist David Roberts and the differences are pretty much evident. HOWEVER, there is a lot of interesting things to be seen in Description d'Egypte that are worth just knowing about. Perhaps style was more important than accuracy in the French report? But it seems to be evidence of the "first impression" a European nation had of an art form truly exotic and compelling. H.V. Shultz ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 3:58 PM Subject: AEL Budge & Beyond : --- See http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ for AEL resources. : --- Copyright in the following belongs to the undersigned. : --- To reply privately, send to Aegyptou@aol.com : : In a message dated 4/26/01 1:33:53 PM Central Daylight Time, : markw@rostau.demon.co.uk writes: : : << http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/faq/week108_budge. txt >> : : A very useful reference. Tangential to the question of Budge, does anyone : know if someone has published and gone on record as to the reliability in : general of the ? Ideally, this would include not only : the recording of texts prior to understanding them, but also lost monuments : of art and architecture, Egyptian as well as Classical. : : Thanks, JHS : ============================================================================== From: "H.V. and Eileen Shultz" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Budge & Beyond Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 05:23:57 -0700 Concerning.... : Compare some structures drawn by the French with water : colors (Lithographs) by the British artist David Roberts and : the differences are pretty much evident. HOWEVER, there is a : lot of interesting things to be seen in Description d'Egypte : that are worth just knowing about. To JHS, There is a wonderful large book that has color prints by Roberts shown with a present day photo of the site illustrated by the artist. It is remarkable by the fact that Roberts shows THE PAINT STILL ON THE PILLARS in the Hypostyle Halls of various temples. It will bring tears to your eyes! I think we purchased a copy through a discount dealer... it is called; YESTERDAY AND TODAY EGYPT ------------------ Lithographs and Diaries by David Roberts, R.A. by Fabio Boubon and photographs by Antonio Attini Stewart, Tabori and Chang New York 1996 Sincerely, Hercel Shultz Southern California ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 10:55:13 -0400 From: Brian Subject: Re: AEL Kom Ombo wall To: Ancient Egyptian Language List << actually I'm not an expert at all about ancient names of Egyptian towns. But I know that Gardiner (he's always the one) has written (several years ago) a very comprehensive book about this topic: Alan Henderson Gardiner "Ancient Egyptian Onomastica" 1947 - Oxford University Press - London (I don't have ISBN number) >> Volume II and the plates have arrived on inter-library loan, so I'm into some serious study this weekend. Volume I is still outstanding. The books are dated 1947 and have no ISBNs. I don't see a copyright notice either, but assume it's covered by the usual rules. :-( Brian Yare ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 16:36:57 +0200 (METDST) From: "Nederhof M.J." To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL align peasant Starting at: http://www.dfki.uni-sb.de/~nederhof/AEL/peasant/guest20.html Jerome proposed: > nn wSb r Dd.t=f nb.t > ; > without an answer to anything he says, > > in mr.w.t wn=f <111> Hr Dd > ; > so that he will be <111> speaking. > > gr ix in.t(w) n=n mdw=f m sXA sDm=n s.t > ; > Be silent, then let his speech be brought to us in writing that we > may hear it. I would like to propose a different way of dividing this into sentences, since GEG (pp. 119 and 136) states that in-mrwt occurs at the head of a sentence. We then obtain: <110> ..... jn-mrwt wn=f <111> Hr Dd gr ; <110> ..... So that he will be <111> speaking, be silent. which also seems to fit better semantically. In the first phrase above, "wSb" can also be the infinitive, "answering", and this is, from a grammatical viewpoint, perhaps more likely. > <112> ... HAm.t > wife Should that not be "Hm.t" ? > mk iw wa m nA <113> n sx.ty r Sw.t pr=f ... r tA ... > ; > Behold, there comes one of these <113> peasants to the > emptiness of his house ... to the land ... That's a tough one. My guess is that "r tA" is attached to "iw" at the beginning of the sentence, so that we obtain: <112> .... jw wa m nA <113> n sxtj r Swt pr=f r tA ; <112> .... That one of these peasants comes <113> to Egypt is because of the emptiness of his house. where I use the translation of r by "concerning". Some published translations try to make something out of the translation of r by "until", so that we obtain something like "... when his house is all but empty", but there is rather a large difference between this and the options provided by the dictionaries. jr grt anx sxtj pn <114> m-Haw=f ; Make, moreover, provisions for this peasant <114> himself. Literally: "make the life of this peasant", where a direct genitive is used; cf. the indirect genitive (not dative) at <112>. > <117> ... Hw.t-HqA > ruler's palace Assuming a transposition here is unnecessary. Hannig has "HqA Hwt", "Gutsherr", and Faulkner has "district governor". Regards, Mark-Jan ============================================================================== From: "Chris Macksey" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL translating texts Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 10:56:03 -0500 >> I am moving on slowly but steadily through the Allen's Grammar.I will >> undoubtedly need to reread it at least 10 times, but anyway I can feel >> some progress. >> So in a couple of month I would like to try myself at reading the 'real' >> texts. I have ordered Faulkner's dictionary. I have found many texts on >> the AEL-site and I have got several books by Budge published by Dover. >> (I have heard that they are very outdated and often inadequate, but I >> have _already_ got them plus I am going to spend my summer in a place, >> where Internet access is not as easily available as it is to me now). >Dear Elena ! >While you are struggling through the thickets of the >Egyptian, you can now begin reading texts. "The >autobiography of Weni" and "Westcar Papirys" (Texts Menu) >are supplied with all sorts of commentaries and >vocabulary. As it is in every language, accumulating >lexics is to be started at the earliest stage possible. I agree. I started with Hoch's grammar, but, after going through it once (and basically translating the Shipwrecked Sailor in doing so), I was able to move on to Westcar pretty quickly. It's a good introductory text, and the commentaries from AEL are quite good. >> So my first question concerns Budge: are there many inaccuracies in his >> copies? I know that his translations are often very inaccurate, but >> right now I am more interested in the usability of hieroglyphic texts. >The real value of Budge is hieroglyphique reproduction >but one should not rely on his transliterations and >translations (see numerous messages to list). Actually, one of Budge's books was the reason why I decided to actually learn Egyptian! I had bought his publication of the Papryus of Ani, purely out of interest (mythology, of all sorts, is a hobby of mine). As I was reading it, I noticed that some parts of his translation were "off". I couldn't tell what they actually said, but I could tell that they *didn't* say what he said they did. So, I started digging on the Web, found AEL, and I've been hooked ever since. I've since re-examined that book (the only one of Budge that I own), and I've found that (mostly) his copies of the glyphs are right (there are a few errors, but they're easily spottable and correctable), but his translations and transliterations are quite unreliable. I would view Budge as a good source for hieroglyphic texts that you might not be able to get elsewhere, but not much more. >> Secondly, I suppouse everyone has his/her own methods of reading a text. >> Could you please give some hints. I find it difficult that Egyptians >> didn't separate sentences or words in either way. I have studied >> Chinese, where they don't separate words either, but there is no >> phonogram-ideogram duality like in Egyptian, so you don't need to wonder >> to which word the sign belongs. Do you start by searching out familiar >> words, or certain determinatives or do you just start 'decoding' from >> the very beginning sign by sign? Also the order of the words in AE is >> very unusual for me, but I suppouse I will just get used to it after >> some time. >Let me explain what I do. First I look if there are >familiar words or phrases or common abbreviations or >titles, then I locate the common determinatives, but one >has to be careful here - quite often a single >determinative stands for the whole word. Sometimes these >determinatives have Z1, sometimes not. >Then I look for plural forms and common prepositions >("n", "m", "r"). Then I try to decipher if what follows >those prepositions are nouns or not. Usually after that I >get the sleketon of the phrase and then I finish it by >identifying the remaining words. My technique is similar, although I have two different techniques - one for "easy" sentences, and one for "hard" ones. In both cases, I use a "four line system" - I have the original glyphs, a line for transliteration, a line for literal translation, and, lastly a "proper" translation. Normally, I scan the text from beginning to end (at least for the chunk I'm working on at the moment), transliterating along the way, placing word breaks at determinatives, and common words written without determinatives (this isn't an unreasonably huge list, you'll get the hang of it with practice). I find that by transliterating it first, I can get the word breaks more or less right (with notable exceptions like n=f being either a verb ending, or a preposition/pronoun combo) - it also helps me easily eliminate phonetic complements (e.g. nfr-f-r). I translate the overall structure of the sentence, and then I grab Faulkner and fill in the few remaining words (usually the nouns). I then translate from "literal Egyptian" to an "idiomized" version. For "hard" sentences, I ignore the word meanings almost completely. I instead attempt to determine the grammatical form of the sentence, and attempt to place the words into a grammatical category (i.e. this is an AB nominal sentence, so both of these words must be nouns, so these ones must be the adjectives, etc.). Once I've got the sentence structure nailed down, I then try to look up the words and fit them in. I've found that for difficult readings, this strategy works quite well. ======================== Chris Macksey c_macksey@hotmail.com ======================== ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 19:24:05 +0200 From: Richard Watson Subject: AEL Stela transliteration To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Dear list, I have transliterated a New Kingdom stela (I think) from the British Mesuem (number 579). I'm not sure which king it's dedicated to, but maybe one of you could tell me? Here it is: Htp-di-nsw 3sir nb ddw hnty-imntw ntr '3 nb 3bdw Inp(w) nb ts-dsr rh3st ntr(w) imnw 3bdw di-ntr n(w) prt-hrw t hnkt k3 3pd ss mnht n k3 im3h(y) twsr-rwr d_d I'nhw sw3t(y)..sn hr m'h't tn m hd hsft tnm mr-rr tn(w) h?ss tn(w) ntr(w) tn(w) d_d tn(w) h3 t hnkt h3 m k3 3pd h3 ss mnht htpt df(3w) prriwit ns 3sir I've written it in line order. It's a standerd offering formular to Osiris. I know what some of it says, but not all of it. If you would like the full graphical version, I'll gladly send it to you :) Ok, so my transliteration might not be igzact, but it is my first stela that I've transliterated! Oh and by the way, I've missed out a signs :) But I don't think it matters. It's just a determanative I think. Thanks, Richard "DuckMan" Watson (ricwatson@mweb.co.za) ICQ# 61022641 ============================================================================== From: ReKhepera@aol.com Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 15:47:59 EDT Subject: AEL Stela of Thutmose I in Naharin? To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk I have found some references to Thutmose I raising a stela in Naharin (Mitanni) and have tried to track down the translitereted/translated inscription, but with no success. I do have a translation of Thutmose III's claim to have erected a stela in Naharin. Did Thutmose I actually raise a stela at/near Carchemish or have various Web sites confused him with Thutmose III? Daniel Harnan ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 08:21:06 +0200 Subject: AEL ???, the great mistress of the House of the Book From: "andre.malahov-dombasle@nomade.fr" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Hello ! Who is the great mistress of the House of the Book ? Her name is R20:X1+Z1, then goes "wr.t nb.t pr(Z1) mDA.t (Z1)". Is she a chronicle keeper ? What is the phonetic value of R20 ? Thanks in advance, Andre Malahov-Dombasle ------------------- L'e-mail gratuit pas comme les autres. Pour cr=E9er votre adresse : http://www.nomade.fr/courrier/ouvrir.asp NOMADE.FR, pourquoi chercher ailleurs ? ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 22:23:12 +1000 From: Jenny Carrington To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL ???, the great mistress of the House of the Book "andre.malahov-dombasle@nomade.fr" wrote: > Who is the great mistress of the House of the Book ? > Her name is R20:X1+Z1, then goes "wr.t nb.t pr(Z1) mDA.t > (Z1)". Is she a chronicle keeper ? > What is the phonetic value of R20 ? sSAt Seshat, Goddess of Writing and Books, Keeper of the Royal Annals. Seshat, the female counterpart to Thoth, was the goddess of reckoning and measurement. She reckoned the life period of the king, marking the years by making knotches on a palm stick, which was an early form of tally keeping. She granted him sed festivals and wrote his name on the leaves of the Ished tree to record the years of his reign. She recorded the booty acquired from military expeditions. She was also known as the Mistress of Builders, and is depicted with the king stretching the cord as part of the foundation ritual, to measure out the ground plan of buildings. Such as depicted in the temple of Seti at Abydos, and the temple of Horus at Edfu. The way her symbol was represented has changed. In the 3rd dynasty it looks like a flower surmounted by a month sign and a pair of feathers. By 12th dynasty the feathers are incorprated into the month sign which is then divided down the centre and soon comes to be represented as 2 cows horns. It has also been suggested that the flower (or leaves) might be a star. m Htp Jenny Carrington ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 01:51:26 -0500 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Jerome Colburn Subject: Re: AEL align peasant At 04:36 PM 04/27/2001 +0200, Nederhof M.J. wrote: > > <112> ... HAm.t > > wife > >Should that not be "Hm.t" ? On the basis of Coptic (s)hi:me (sg.), hiome (pl.), some consonant seems to be necessary between the H and the m. Vergote restores an A < *r there and connects the word to Semitic Hrm in the sense of "dedicated, reserved". ********************************** * Jerome Colburn * jscolbur@prairienet.org * im nfr mdw pn m bAH mryw mdw-nTr ********************************** ============================================================================== From: "Jose Barrios Garcia" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL words relating to mathematics Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 18:22:24 +0100 Dear Oscar, You could find a quite extensive glossary of mathematical terms in pp. 194-204 of the following book. Sylvia Couchoud (1993 Mathematiques Egyptiennes. Recherches sur les Connaissances Mathematiques de l'Egypte Pharaonique. Paris, Le Leopard d'Or, 1993. Yours - Jose Barrios ========================================= http://webpages.ull.es/users/jbarrios/page/index.htm ========================================= ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Oscar H. Blayton" > > I am trying to find the different AEL words for "mathematics" and any > other words dealing with concepts relating to mathematical functions. > > Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. > > Oscar H. Blayton ==============================================================================