Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 00:51:53 -0500 From: Don Ferruggia To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL FW: desperately seeking 'nb' If I'm interpreting your message correctly, your friend is trying to translate a passage which makes reference to a falcon on a *nb* basket. He should leave *nb* untranslated: the *nb* basket is a certain shape of basket which was used as the hieroglyphic sign for the letters n + b. Vultures and snakes are often found sitting on the *nb* basket, but the falcon usually sits on a pectoral collar (which looks like a *nb* basket with tassels). But your friend is merely trying to translate, so he should simply continue to call it a *nb* basket. mgierhake@geocities.com wrote: > someone in sci.lang.translation is desperately trying > to figure out what *nb* might mean in an Art history > text. > Can somebody lend a hand? > == forwarded message > > In a scholar text about Early Greek vase painting (10th-5th B.C.), > *nb* [in italic] which is not *Nota Bene* nor, it seems, something like > a translitteration of Egyptian names (hieroglyphics). > > Context: The shape derives from Egypt and in the decoration there > are some Egyptian motifs to identify (a falcon on a *nb* basket). > > What could be this *nb* animal? > > From: "CD" ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 18:55:08 +0000 Subject: AEL (Fwd) Shipwrecked Sailor 154-172 ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Reply-to: "James P. Allen" From: "James P. Allen" To: "AEL (Mark Wilson)" Subject: Shipwrecked Sailor 154-172 Date: Sun, 27 Dec 1998 19:21:30 -0500 154-55) aHa.n dpt tf jj.t(j) mj srt.n.f xnt(w) "Then that boat came, like what he had predicted before." A subject-stative construction, past tense for intransitive verbs. srt.n.f is the relative sDm.n.f. xnt(w) is an adverb from the preposition xnt "in front." 155-56) aHa.n.j Sm.kw, rdj.n.(j) wj Hr xt qAt, sjA.n.j ntjw m Xnw.s "Then I went and put myself on a high tree, and I recognized those who were in it." A subject-stative construction (intransitive) followed by two sDm.n.f clauses (transitive). This is a good example of the Middle Egyptian compound sentence, with three main clauses. The subject of rdj.n.(j) is omitted, as is usually the case when a 1s suffix pronoun is followed by the 1s dependent pronoun. 157) aHa.n.j Sm.kw r smjt st, gm.n.j sw rx.(w) st "Then I went to report it, and I found him (already) aware of it." Same pattern as the previous sentence, with two main clauses. smjt is the infinitive, and st is its object. Normally the infinitive takes a suffix pronoun as object (e.g., r smjt.f "to report him"), but st is used instead of .s when the object is neuter ("it"). rx.(w) st is a circumstantial clause with the 3ms stative, describing the circumstance under which "I found him." rx is the only verb that can normally take a direct object (st) in the stative. 158-59) aHa.n Dd.n.f n.j, snb.t(j) zp 2 nDs r pr.k, mA.k Xrdw.k "Then he said to me: Farewell, farewell, mister, to your house, and see your children." snb.t(j) is the stative used as a wish: literally, "may you be well," a wish for a state, as opposed to snb.k (subjunctive) "may you become well," a wish for an action. mA.k is the subjunctive. It can be understood as a clause of purpose ("so that you may see your children"), a future ("you will see your children"), or a separate wish as translated here. These are all matters of English translation; in Egyptian the form simply expresses action that is somehow willed or uncertain. 159) jmj rn.j nfr.(w) m njwt.k "Make my name good in your town." jmj is the imperative of rdj; its second sign is a biliteral jm, and the first and third sign are its complements; the fourth sign is the determinative. nfr.(w) is the stative, here expressing a resulting state, which the stative sometimes does. The English translation is a good approximation of its meaning: compare the similar English phrases "paint the barn red" or "shoot the lion dead," where "red" and "dead" are states resulting from the action of the verbs "paint" and "shoot." The alternative translation "Put my good name in your town," with nfr interpreted as an adjective, makes less sense in this context. 159-60) m.k Xrt.j pw jm.k "Look, that is what I want from you." An A pw nominal sentence introduced by mk. Xrt is a nisbe (noun or adjective of relation) from the preposition Xr "under." To be "under" something is one of the ways Egyptian expresses possession (since it has no verb "have"). The nisbe Xrt therefore means something like "possession," and the sentence here can be paraphrased more literally as "that is what I have in you": i.e., that is the obligation I am imposing on you. It is interesting that the serpent asks only this of the sailor. In the preceding lines (149-54) he basically rejected the sailor's promises to send offerings (140-42 and 146-47), leaving only the sailor's promises of sacrifices (144-46) and praise (139-40 and 142-44). The serpent evidently asks only the latter. 161) aHa.n rdj.n.(j) wj Hr Xt.j, awj.j xAm.(w) m bAH.f "Then I put myself on my belly, my arms bent before him." The second clause is a subject-stative construction used to express concomitant circumstance. This sentence describes the typical Egyptian posture of obeisance (on the belly) and respect (arms bent). 162-65) aHa.n rdj.n.f n.j zbt m antjw Hknw jwdnb XzAyt tjSps SAaz(?) msdmt sdw nw mjmj mryt aAt nt sntr nDHyt nt Abw Tzmw gwfw kyw Spss nb nfr "Then he gave me a cargo of myrrh, Hknw-oil, jwdnb-oil, XzAyt-resin, cinnamon, ... galena, tails of giraffe, big chunks of incense, tusks of elephant, hounds, long and short-tailed monkeys, and every good kind of fine thing." The only difficulty here is the word in line 163 that Blackman transcribes as SAaz followed by x with a question mark. The sign read as z ("flat s") could also be the aA sign, which would agree with the preceding a, giving a word SAaA, perhaps "group writing" for a loanword SAa (representing *Sra or *Sla in the Middle Egyptian system of group-writing). The x? sign is probably the determinative of this word, not x. The context suggests some kind of commodity (fruit or mineral), or perhaps a word meaning something like "sack" or "basket" (which might suit the shape of the determinative better). 166) aHa.n Atp.n.j st r dpt tn "Then I loaded it for that boat." Atp r can mean "load on," but that meaning is unlikely here, since lines 169-171 below suggest that the sailor did not go to the boat at this stage. What he loaded it on, of course, is a question; the Egyptian audience would undoubtedly have thought of donkeys, even though none are specifically mentioned as inhabitants of the island. 166-67) xpr.n rdjt.(j) wj Hr Xt.j r dwA-nTr n.f "Finally I put myself on my belly to thank him." xpr.n is a rare variant of aHa.n. Here it is followed by the infinitive, which serves as its subject: literally, "my putting myself on my belly to praise god for him happened." The suffix pronoun is omitted before wj, as it also is in this text with the sDm.n.f (e.g., line 156 rdj.n.(j) wj). 167-68) aHa.n Dd.n.f n.j m.k tw r spr r Xnw n Abd 2 "Then he said to me: Look, you are to arrive home in two months." Egyptian arrives r "to" a place. Xnw "interior" is used in this text (and elsewhere) as an expression similar to our "home." Note that it is determined by the house sign, not the city sign, so this is not a case of the same word used as an idiom for the capital city. The predicate is the subject-r-sDm construction (where sDm is the infinitive), which denotes a predicted future event outside the control of the subject. Egyptian uses the preposition n "to, for" with expressions of time where English uses "in" or "within." 168-69) mH.k qnj.k m Xrdw.k, rnpy.k m Xnw qrst.k "You will fill your embrace with your children and grow young inside your tomb." The verbs are subjunctives, denoting a future event that is willed or desired by the actor. rnpj (or rnpw) is an adjective-verb. When such verbs are used as anything other than a plain adjective (which is actually the participle of the verb), they normally indicate an action rather than a simple quality: thus, rnpy.k means "you will become young," not "you will be young." The clause (or sentence) as a whole is a reference to the Egyptian concept of the afterlife as rebirth, and is used here as an elegant euphemism for "you will be buried in your own tomb." 169-70) aHa.n.(j) hA.kw r mryt m hAw dpt tn "Then I went down to the shore in the vicinity of that boat." The suffix pronoun is probably not written after aHa.n, since this construction seems to require a subject before the stative. 170-72) aHa.n.j Hr jAS n mSa ntj m dpt tn, rdj.n.j Hknw Hr mryt n nb n jw pn, ntjw jm.s r mjtt jrj "Then I was calling to the expeditionary force that was in that boat, and I gave praise on the shore to the lord of that island, and those in it (did) likewise." The use of the subject-Hr-sDm construction here denotes an action that took place over some time (like the English "be ...ing" construction), so the sailor apparently means that he kept calling until the boat answered. If he had said aHa.n jAS.n.j, that would have referred to a single action {"then I called"). In the early Middle Kingdom the word mSa means "expedition" or "expeditionary force." mSa's were sent on peaceful missions (such as the one the sailor was on) as well as military ones. Only in the latter case does mSa mean specifically "army." Since rdj.n.j is the first word of its clause, it probably introduces a dependent clause rather than a new sentence. In this use it is understood as a second verb form dependent on the initial aHa.n, and denotes subsequent past action ("and I gave") rather than prior circumstance ("after I gave"). The final words ntjw jm.s r mjtt jrj are meant as a second subject for rdj.n. jm.s refers to the boat (dpt, feminine), not the island (jw, masculine). r mjtt jrj is a prepositional phrase followed by an adverb formed from the preposition r: literally, "to the likeness thereunto." James P. Allen, Curator Department of Egyptian Art Metropolitan Museum of Art ============================================================================== From: Michael Tilgner To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: AW: AEL about some bible verses Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 14:36:58 +0100 I wrote: > LAe III, 270-273, s.v. "Josephsgeschichte" [the story of Joseph] > Gn 41:45 Joseph's second name Safenat pa'neah corresponds to Egyptian Dd pA > nTr iw.f anx "the god has said: you will live" Sorry for an error in the translation: Dd pA nTr iw=f anx must be "the god says (has said): _he_ lives (or: will live)" This translation is due to Steindorff, as was already reported by Aayko in his posting. Happy New Year, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@baan.nl ============================================================================== From: "James W Gallup" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL about some bible verses Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 21:18:35 -0600 Hi, I am new to this so bear with me. How do you get Safeneat pa'neah to be anything at all like Dd pA nTr iw.f anx? If someone could please fill me in, I would be most appreciative! -----Original Message----- From: Michael Tilgner To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Date: Monday, December 28, 1998 1:05 PM Subject: AW: AEL about some bible verses >I wrote: > >> LAe III, 270-273, s.v. "Josephsgeschichte" [the story of Joseph] > > > >> Gn 41:45 Joseph's second name Safenat pa'neah corresponds to Egyptian Dd >pA >> nTr iw.f anx "the god has said: you will live" > >Sorry for an error in the translation: >Dd pA nTr iw=f anx must be "the god says (has said): _he_ lives (or: will >live)" > >This translation is due to Steindorff, as was already reported by Aayko in >his posting. > >Happy New Year, >Michael Tilgner >mtilgner@baan.nl ============================================================================== From: Michael Tilgner To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: AW: AW: AEL about some bible verses Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 02:01:35 +0100 Aayko Eyma wrote: > I do not find an AE verb for 'kneel' iw m HfAt "to arrive crawling submissively (being on one's knees)" (Hannig, p. 526) brk "to kneel" (Hannig, p. 257) pAd "to kneel" (Hannig, p. 273) mAs "to kneel" (Hannig, p. 321) Happy New Year, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@baan.nl ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 15:29:03 +0000 Subject: AEL (Fwd) Shipwrecked Sailor 172-89 ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Reply-to: "James P. Allen" From: "James P. Allen" To: "AEL (Mark Wilson)" Subject: Shipwrecked Sailor 172-89 Date: Mon, 28 Dec 1998 21:17:10 -0500 172-74) nat pw jr.n.n m xd r Xnw n jtj, spr.n.n r Xnw Hr Abd 2 mj Ddt.n.f nbt "What we did was to sail north toward the Residence, and it was at 2 months that we reached home, like everything he had said." The first clause has the sDm pw jr.n.f construction, which is an A pw B nominal sentence in which A is an infinitive and B is the relative sDm.n.f. Like most A pw B nominal sentences, it is best translated "B is A." xd means literally "downstream," which of course is north and so can be employed even when the journey is not on the Nile. Xnw n jtj is literally "the home of the sovereign." spr is an intransitive verb, so spr.n.n is probably "emphatic," like most examples of the sDm.n.f of such verbs; what's being emphasized is clearly Hr Abd 2 and not r Xnw. The use of the more specific preposition Hr "on" here instead of the looser n "within" as in line 168 above is probably meant to underline the accuracy of the prophecy. Ddt.n.f is the relative sDm.n.f used here without an antecedent, like a noun rather than an adjective, meaning "that which he said," and nbt modifies it. 174-75) aHa.n.j aq.kw Hr jtj, mz.n.j n.f jnw pn jn.n.j m Xnw n jw pn "Then I entered to the sovereign and brought in to him that produce I had gotten from the interior of that island." The first clause has the subject-stative construction, which is used for the past tense of intransitive verbs in Middle Egyptian, and the second has the sDm.n.f, which is used for the past tense of transitive verbs. Egyptian enters m "to" a place but Hr "to" a person, since m denotes literally "into, inside." The verb mzj means "bring in, introduce." jnw "produce" comes from jnj "get, fetch," and literally refers to what has been gotten. jn.n.j is a relative sDm.n.f modifying jnw pn. 176) aHa.n dwA.n.f-nTr n.j xft Hr qnbt tA r Dr.f "Then he thanked me in front of the assembly of the whole land." In the expression dwA.n.f-nTr, nTr is placed in honorific transposition. dwA.n.f is the sDm.n.f, and nTr is its object: literally, "he praised god for me." 177-79) aHa.n.(j) rdj.kw r Smsw, sAH.kw m tpw.f "Then I was made a Follower and endowed with people of his." A good example of an Egyptian compound sentence ("and"). The first clause has the subject-stative construction (the 1s suffix of aHa.n is unwritten), with the stative of a transitive verb, which is the form Middle Egyptian normally uses instead of the passive sDm.f when the subject is pronominal. The same form occurs in the second clause, this time initially, but is understood to be governed by aHa.n.(j), just as in the English translation "and endowed" is understood to be governed by "I was" of the first clause. rdj r followed by a title or noun of function means "appoint": literally, "give to (be)." Smsw "follower" is a low-grade military title. sAH means literally "touch with the toe" (the meaning it has in col. 178 just following). Here (and elsewhere) it's used with the meaning "endow" or "reward," perhaps originally from the notion of being rewarded by being touched by (or allowed to kiss) the pharaoh's foot. tpw means literally "heads": Egyptian used this term to refer to people like we use it to refer to cattle. The papyrus goes back to columns instead of lines here, after line 176. 179-81) mA wj r sA sAH.j tA r sA mA.j dpt.n.j "See me (now), after my landing, after my seeing what I have experienced." At this point the sailor's story ends and the story brings us back to the conversation between the sailor and his commander. mA is imperative; 2ae-gem. verbs (like mAA) can have either the geminated or ungeminated form in the imperative (mAA or mA). The two forms following the compound preposition r sA are infinitives with 1s subjects. The infinitive of mAA "see" is usually mAA, but with a pronominal suffix it's usually mA. This is probably because the last two consonants were in contact (*mvAAvj, where v stands for a vowel), in which case hieroglyphic spelling writes only one, whereas in the form without a suffix subject they had a vowel between them (*mvAvA). dpt.n.j is a relative sDm.n.f used by itself as a noun: literally, "that which I have tasted." 181-82) sDm r.k [HAt(j)-a] "So listen, high official." Another imperative; r.k relates this command to the preceding one. Of the various restorations that have been proposed for the lacuna at the top of col. 182 before the seated man, Blackman notes that [n].j "to me" is too small for the space and [n.j HAt(j) a] "to me, high official" is too large, so he opts for [n r].j "to my voice" (literally, "mouth"). But this is an odd expression, especially in this context, since the sailor has just finished speaking. The restoration suggested here would also fill the space, and nicely refers back to the way the story started (col. 1-2 wDA jb.k HAt(j)-a). By sDm "listen," the sailor means "take heed to what you have just heard." Compare Kagemni (Prisse 2,4-5) jr ntt nbt m zXA Hr pA Sfdw sDm st mj Dd.j st "As for all that is in writing on this roll, heed it like I said it." 182) m.k nfr sDm n r(m)T "Look, hearing is good for people." This same sentence occurs in the text known as "The Man who was Tired of Life" (Lebensm=FCde 66). It has an adjectival predicate (nfr) with an infinitive as its subject (sDm). n r(m)T goes with nfr, not sDm: compare Ptahhotep 534 Ax sDm n zA sDmw "Hearing is effective for a son who hears." 183-84) aHa.n Dd.n.f n.j m jr jqr xnms "Then he said to me: Don't act (so) smart, friend." m is the imperative of the negative verb jmj; it is followed by the negatival complement of the verb jrj. jqr, which also occurs in col. 188 below, means "skilled, accomplished." The phrase as a whole means literally "don't make accomplished." What the commander is referring to is the sailor's last sentence, which makes him sound as if he is one of the great wise men of Egyptian wisdom literature. 184-86) jn m rdjt mw [n] Apd HD tA n zft.f dwA "What, pray tell, is the point of giving water to a bird at the dawn of the morning of its slaughter?" jn is the interrogative particle. Since the combination jn-m "who, what" is regularly written nmj in this text (69-70, 83-83), the following m is probably not the interrogative "who, what" but the enclitic particle "please." rdjt is an infinitive. When jn introduces an infinitive in a question, it means "what about ..., what's the idea of ..., what's the point of ..." (there are several good examples in the contemporary letters of Heqanakht). HD is the imperfective sDm.f of the verb HD "become bright," here used in a clause of circumstance; HD tA "the land becomes bright" is the Egyptian expression for "dawn." zft is another infinitive (originally zfT), and the suffix pronoun is its object. dwA is the noun "morning," here used adverbially. The sentence as a whole means literally "what, please, is (the point of) giving water to a bird when the land becomes bright for its slaughter in the morning." From this pessimistic sentence, perhaps an Egyptian proverb, it's clear that the commander judged his expedition a failure and expected to be punished for it. This "unhappy ending" is unique in Egyptian literature. It was probably intended to teach by counter-example. Both the serpent's story and the sailor's demonstrated how happiness can come from persevering when times are bad. The commander should have taken this to heart (sDm "hear, listen, heed") to help him over his own predicament, but he doesn't. The reference to a bird being "slaughtered" is then a way of saying "see what happens when you don't heed the advice of wise men." The commander is the perfect example of Ptahhotep's teaching (575-77): jr wxA jwt(j) sDm.f, nn jr n.f xt nbt, mA.f rx m xm "As for the fool who does not listen, there is no one who can do anything for him: he sees knowledge as ignorance." 186-89) jw.f pw, HAt.f r pH(wj).fj, mj gmyt m zXA, [m] zXA zXA jqr n Dbawf, zA-jmny jmn-aA anx.(w) (w)DA.(w) s(nb.w) "That is how it comes, beginning to end, like what has been found in writing, in the writing of the scribe of accomplished fingers, Ameny's son Amen-aa, may he be alive, sound, and healthy." This final sentence is known as the colophon. It identifies the scribe who actually wrote this papyrus (not the author). It is essentially an A pw nominal sentence in which A is the relative (nominal) sDm.f jw.f. gmyt is the passive participle. The expression zXA jqr n Dbaw.f means literally "the accomplished scribe of his fingers": Egyptian makes the adjective modify the owner of the attribute, whereas English makes it modify the attribute. The sequence A zA B in Middle Egyptian means "A's son B," not "A son of B" as it does in the New Kingdom. The final expression--normally translated "LPH"--is actually three 3d-person statives used as a wish. I hope these comments have helped in your study of the text. Best wishes, James P. Allen, Curator Department of Egyptian Art Metropolitan Museum of Art ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Shipwrecked Sailor L129-189 Date: Tue, 29 Dec 1998 19:59:28 PST Thanks again to Prof.Allen for his enlightening comments on this story. I have been a bit slow lately and have not sent in any of my efforts since Line 129. Rather than send the whole lot, here is my translation only, from Line 129 to 189 "Then a star fell and they went forth as fire because of it. When it happened I was not with them. When they burned up I was not in their midst. Then I (could have) died for them when I found them as one heap of corpses. If you are brave and control your heart you will fill your embrace with your children, and kiss your wife. You will see your house, it is more beautiful than anything. You will reach home. You will be in it in the midst of your brothers and sisters. I was stretched out on my belly, I touched the ground before him, and I said to him: I shall speak of your power to the sovereign. I shall inform him of your greatness. I shall cause to be brought to you ladanum, sacred oil, laudanum, XzAyt-spice, and incense of the temples, which pleases every god. (ladanum:- Rock Rose, fixative for perfume. laudanum:- tincture of Opium. XzAyt-spice:- perhaps Cassia (cinnamomum cassia), used in incense.) When I relate what happened to me, what I have seen of your power, praises will be given to you in the city before the court officials of the entire land. I shall slaughter bulls for you for a burnt offering. I shall wring the necks of geese for you. I will cause to be brought to you ships loaded with every precious thing of Egypt, like what is done for a god who loves people in a far land which the people do not know. Then he laughed at me for these (things) that I foolishly said. He said to me: You do not have much myrrh or any form of incense. Indeed, I am the ruler of Punt, and the myrrh, it is my own. That sacred oil which you said would be brought, there is much on this island. When it happens that you are separated from this island, never (again) will you see this island, it having become as water. Then that boat came like he foretold at first. I went and placed me up a tall tree and I recognized those who were in it. When I went to report it I found he knew it. Then he said to me: Farewell, farewell, little man, to your house, where you will see your children. Make my name good in your city. Behold, it is what I require from you. Then I placed me on my belly, my arms bent before him. Then he gave to me the cargo of myrrh, sacred oil, laudanum, XzAyt-spice, cinnamon, SAaz, eyepaint, tails of giraffes, great lumps of incense, tusks of elephants, hounds, long tailed monkeys, ky-monkeys and all the beautiful riches. Then I loaded it into this boat. When it was done, I placed me on my belly to praise god for him. Then he said to me: Behold, you will arrive home after two months. You will fill your embrace with your children. You will be young/vigorous in your home. You will be buried. Then I went down to the shore near this boat, I called out to the crew who were in this boat. Then I gave praise on the shore for the lord of this island, those who were in it did likewise. We made the journey northward to the residence of the sovereign. We reached home after two months like all that he had said. Then I entered to the sovereign and I presented to him these gifts which I had brought from the interior of that island. Then he praised god for me before the court officials of the entire land. I was appointed a Follower and I was endowed with 200 people. Look at me, after I reached land, after I saw what I experienced. Listen to what I say. Behold it is good to listen to people. Then he (the prince) said to me: Do not act superior, my friend. Who gives water to a goose at dawn when it is to be slaughtered in the morning? It is finished, from its beginning to its end, like what was found in writing, [and then] written by the scribe, skillful of fingers, Ameni, son of Amena. Life, prosperity, health." m Htp Jenny Carrington ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 18:44:03 +1100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Weni update Dear exasperated Weni-philes, I've finally managed to complete the vocab. pages for the last pages of Weni. This has taken me some time to complete (I have to make links from the image of each word to the appropriate entry in the vocabulary; and I have to do the vocabulary at the same time). So, all is ready, and I will try and kick off the discussion in the near future. Point your browser to: http://www.ccer.theo.uu.nl/texts/ael/weni.ael/index.htm Best wishes, Mike Dyall-Smith PS: report any bugs you find directly to me please. ******************************** Mike Dyall-Smith, Melbourne, Australia m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au ******************************** ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 01:33:56 +1100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Weni L31 The commentary is now updated to include the proposed translations by Mark V. and Jenny C. Looking over the posts I believe we have yet to discuss the grammar of line 31 and etc. We got slightly distracted by a discussion on the i>w shift in early egyptian to middle egyptian (eg. .ki > .kw, in 1st pers. sing. stative ending). So, kicking off here, my comments on line 31 (using Mark's translation): Line 31: iri.n(=i) wdi ir tA m pH.w qAi.w.w n.i.w TAz.t (31) Hr mH.w.t tA Hr.i.w-Sa I put to land at the back of the height of the mountain range to the north of the land of the Sand-Dwellers, [M.Vygus] I wonder if the iri.n=f form is a second tense/emphatic verb form. Literally, 'Where I made a landing was at the back of...." This type of sentence is what James Hoch calls an 'explicatory sentence', ie. the speaker is describing the details surrounding the action. Here I am guessing that Weni was pretty pleased with the way he planned this attack. More comments: m pH.w: prep. + noun: 'to the back' or 'from behind' qAi.w.w (n.) height: this is put directly after 'back', so is a 'direct genitive' or 'bound' construction, ie. 'back OF the height(s?)' n.i.w Taz.t: indirect genitive using n.i. The genitive is transliterated as a plural, to fit with the preceding plural noun. So the noun should mean 'heights', or 'peaks' etc. (??) sT gs twt n.i mSa pn m Hri.t while (the other) half of this army were travelling by land [M.Vygus] gs twt, the entire half. I think the english translation of 'the other half' is a good choice here. twt must be an intensifier, after all you can't have more than or less than a half. m Hri.t, the verb is in the infinitive and preceded by the preposition m. This is the construction that denotes ongoing action (here, 'travelling), and verbs of motion are preceded by the preposition m rather than Hr (or r, if future). ii.n(=i) nDrw.n(=i) sn mrw-qd=sn smA.i (32) btk nb im=sn I returned (doubled-back ?) , I obstructed all of them and slew every rebel amongst them [M.Vygus] ii.n(=i); The initial verb form is bare, and past tense (Loprieno calls this the 'past perfect'). There may be some confusion about this verb, does it refer to coming back to the other half of the army (a pincer movement) or does it recount the return to Egypt, 'having obstructed... and slaughtered every rebel....". Perhaps someone can persuade me one way or the other. regards, Mike D-S ******************************** Mike Dyall-Smith, Melbourne, Australia m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au ******************************** ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Shipwrecked Sailor L183-84 Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:54:59 PST I have been wondering about line 183-84. Prof.Allen has: >183-84) aHa.n Dd.n.f n.j m jr jqr xnms "Then he said to me: Don't act (so) smart, friend." In the translation I posted I had: >"Then he (the prince) said to me: Do not act superior, my friend." But there are two seated man signs that can be taken as suffix pronouns rather than determinatives, (as both iqr and xnms already have determinatives), so that we have: m iri iqr=i xnms=i This changes the subject from the sailor to the prince and, I think, makes more sense of the proverb: "Who gives water to a goose at dawn when it is to be slaughtered in the morning?" It then becomes: "Do not make me to be accomplished, my friend." In other words: Do not build up my confidence (give water), when I am about to be reprimanded (slaughtered). m Htp Jenny Carrington ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 22:32:01 +1100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Weni:Download site option I have uploaded a .zip file of the entire site, which seems to download and work fine on my platform. It may be useful for those with slow or variable connections to download the entire site. You can then view the files (much more rapidly) on your own computer using your browser to open up the files (eg. the "Open page..." option under the 'File' menu in Navigator 4.06). Don't expect the zip file to be identical as I update the site more often than I update the zip file. Best wishes, Mike ******************************** Mike Dyall-Smith, Melbourne, Australia m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au ******************************** ============================================================================== From: AntoinViel@aol.com Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 13:43:44 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Gardiner Chapter 12 Hello everyone, Still working with Gardiner's grammar, I have tackled Chapter 12 - Exercise A ( Translate into English) and, even before everything is finished, I already have a few questions. Exercise A- Sentence 1 - The sentence begins with "It is unpleasant in every place, this year is heavier (= worse) than last year because of masters (who are) full of crimes. There is no justice" and I think my translation is not too bad. However, the continuation is not as clear: " HA n=i ib m iqr sxw" >>> May that the heart be for me (= I wish my hear would be ) excellent of councels " (r)di=i gr tA m mAirw=f" >> I cause the earth to be silent in its misery. If my translation is correct ( this is not sure!), I do not understand the connection between the last two sentences: who can "I" who "causes the earth to be silent" be? Surely, there is something I have not understood. Sentence 2 : iw wn s imn xti rnn=f, aSA n=f x.wt There is / was a man called Amen-xti (= Amon is Victorious?) , he owns / owned a lot of things. But I can't decide whether it is A/ " aSA n=f x.wt" i.e. adjective + dative + noun >> things are / were abundant to him , or B/ " aSA.n=f x.wt" i.e. sDm.n=f form of the adjective-verb + noun >> he was abundant of things However I feel the meaning is the same whether it is A or B, except perhaps the tense. There will be more questions to come about exercise A . I have also had a first quick look at exercise B (Translate into Egyptian) and I wouild like to ask two basic questions A/ Which pronoun is used after a preposition? Is it ALWAYS , with no exception, a suffix one ? (cf, sentence 2 "more powerful than he." >>"wsr r=f ?" B/ Word order: To translate "the river is empty of crocodiles" do I say : 1/ nn empty of crocodiles the river or 2/ nn empty the river of crocodiles. I think I have understood that both are possible, but is one "better" or more usual than the other? I hope someone will find a few linutes to answer me. Thank you in advance. Happy New Year. Jean-Claude Viel - Vernon - France email: AntoinViel@aol.com ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 01:46:13 +1100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Weni 32 wn(=i) m AT.w(.t.i) Hw.t-aAi Xr.i-Tbw.t.i rDi wi n.i-sw.t bi.t.i mri.i-n.i-raw nb(=i) anx.w D.t m HAt.i-a im.i-rA Sma.w xnt m Abw mH.w.t m mdn.i.t While I was (still only) Chamberlain of the Palace and Sandal-bearer The King of Upper & Lower Egypt (Merenre) my lord,who lives forever placed me as Mayor, and Overseer of Upper Egypt, south from Yebu, north to Medenit [translation of M.Vygus] Comments: a) No initial particle, as is common in Old Egyptian. Sentence begins with the verb wnn (to be/exist). The focus of the situation is that he was given these new responsibilities WHILE just a Chamberlain of the palace and sandal-bearer; ie. a temporal (time) focus. I think the verb form is the indicative sDm=f (an early egyptian past tense form). Do others agree?? Questions: I believe wn is used instead of iw because of the temporal focus. Is this correct? How would you write the same sentence in Middle Egyptian? b) m At.w(.t.i), 'as a chamberlain'. Uses m of predication. c) Hw.t-aAi, the 'great house', ie. the palace d) Xr.i-Tbw.t.i, lit. bearer of (the) sandals = sandal-bearer A court title given to close associates of the king. Any comments about this position?? e) rDi - what verb form here, indicative? Regards, Mike ************************************* Mike Dyall-Smith, Ph.D. Department of Microbiology and Immunology, University of Melbourne, 3052 Australia Tel: +(613) 9344-5693 Fax: +(613) 9347-1540 e-m: m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au web: www.microbiol.unimelb.edu.au/mds/ ************************************* ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: "AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk" Subject: AW: AEL (Fwd) Shipwrecked Sailor 172-89 Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 14:42:43 +-100 >177-79) aHa.n.(j) rdj.kw r Smsw, sAH.kw m tpw.f "Then I was made a Follower >and endowed with people of his." **I wonder whether there is a problem here in the hieratic text? Two different editions? Lichtheim also has "serfs of his", in line with Prof. Allen's. But my hieroglyphs have _tp.w 200_, so in line with Jenny's >I was appointed a Follower and I was >endowed with 200 people. Could you judge from the hieratic, Stephen? Best wishes, Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 20:20:30 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Gardiner Chapter 12 AntoinViel@aol.com writes: > Hello everyone, > Still working with Gardiner's grammar, I have tackled Chapter 12 - Exercise A > ( Translate into English) and, even before everything is finished, I already > have a few questions. > > Exercise A- Sentence 1 - The sentence begins with "It is unpleasant in every > place, this year is heavier (= worse) than last year because of masters (who > are) full of crimes. There is no justice" and I think my translation is not > too bad. However, the continuation is not as clear: " HA n=i ib m iqr sxw" >>> > May that the heart be for me (= I wish my hear would be ) excellent of > councels " (r)di=i gr tA m mAirw=f" >> I cause the earth to be silent in its > misery. If my translation is correct ( this is not sure!), I do not > understand the connection between the last two sentences: who can "I" who > "causes the earth to be silent" be? Surely, there is something I have not > understood. The "di=i" is a prospective : ... that I might cause the earth ... I remember the sentence gave me problems when I did the exercice. The problem is more the meaning than the grammar. There are two possible views : either take it at face value : what he wants is silence (a bit cynical) or suppose that the earth will be silent because the misery will have ended. The context should be of some help, here. It looks like "the admonitions of an Egyptian sage". > Sentence 2 : iw wn s imn xti rnn=f, aSA n=f x.wt There is / was a man called > Amen-xti (= Amon is Victorious?) , he owns / owned a lot of things. > But I can't decide whether it is > A/ " aSA n=f x.wt" i.e. adjective + dative + noun >> things are / were > abundant to him , or > B/ " aSA.n=f x.wt" i.e. sDm.n=f form of the adjective-verb + noun >> he > was abundant of things > However I feel the meaning is the same whether it is A or B, except perhaps > the tense. The subject of the adjective verb would be xt, not =f. You would have a difference of meaning, also : he is rich (that's his more or less permanent nature) vs. he has become rich. B/ =f as subject would need the causative "saSA.n=f xt" > A/ Which pronoun is used after a preposition? Is it ALWAYS , with no > exception, a suffix one ? (cf, sentence 2 "more powerful than he." >>"wsr r=f > ?" To the best of my knowledge, yes. The independant pronoun can be used concurrently with the suffix in a few constructions (possessive), but preposition call for a suffix. > B/ Word order: To translate "the river is empty of crocodiles" do I say : > 1/ nn empty of crocodiles the river or 2/ nn empty the river of crocodiles. I > think I have understood that both are possible, but is one "better" or more > usual than the other? > 2/. The order is the same as with sDm=f : Subject Circumstances, The only things that can go before the subject being suffixal dative (n=f) pronominal object (sw) There can be exceptions, for which you'll see paragraph 507. > I hope someone will find a few linutes to answer me. Thank you in advance. > Happy New Year. > Jean-Claude Viel - Vernon - France > email: AntoinViel@aol.com ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 03 Jan 1999 13:25:38 -0800 From: sfryer@prcn.org (Stephen Fryer) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AW: AEL (Fwd) Shipwrecked Sailor 172-89 Aayko Eyma wrote: > >177-79) aHa.n.(j) rdj.kw r Smsw, sAH.kw m tpw.f "Then I was made a Follower > >and endowed with people of his." > > **I wonder whether there is a problem here > in the hieratic text? Two different editions? > Lichtheim also has "serfs of his", in line with > Prof. Allen's. But my hieroglyphs have _tp.w 200_, > so in line with Jenny's > >I was appointed a Follower and I was > >endowed with 200 people. > > Could you judge from the hieratic, Stephen? I looked at the Hieratic, and while the character in question is quite clear, it MIGHT be taken as an unusually poorly written f. However it looks to me more like the sign for 200 in Middle Hieratic as given in Moeller for late MK (Illahun) - and relates well to other versions for the 200 sign in Moeller. All the other f's on this page are quite neatly, and differently, written. So on the whole, I would say it was _tp.w 200_ "200 persons." -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ==============================================================================