Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 20:15:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Transliteration of Westcar OK, at Marianne's suggestion, here goes... Below is the transliteration of the first page of the part which De Buck uses in his reading book. He begins with folio VI, line 22. That is on De Buck's page 79. I had to take a few bits from page 80 too because the page break is not only in mid sentence, but in mid word. Be aware that De Buck does not put line breaks in places for semantic reasons, but rather for conservation of space, and words are often divided in the process. However, he does put pauses between semantic phrases within the text. I have grouped the text by sentence, rather than by phrase, typing two returns between sentences. Many of the phrases beginning in jw are to be understood as circumsantial clauses within a larger sentence. I have also punctuated the transliteration as I understand the phrases to run. However, do not put too much stock in how I have divided things, but rather, if you have a different interpretation, then translate it accordingly. I do not recommend that anyone attempt to translate the text without perusing the hieroglyphs either. We are working on getting the glyphs up as soon as we possibly can. If you can get a hold of the text in any other fashion before then, you should do so. You may not agree with my transliterations, and there are indeed places where one has to make executive decisions in transliterating. Look at the glyphs as much as you can yourselves, and see what you think. For Lichtheim's translation go to volume 1, p. 217 and begin under her heading "The Magician Djedi". Note that she fills in the lacunae with reasonable suggestions. In what follows, lacunae are marked with ////, but where De Buck has restored legible words in the lacunae, I have gone ahead and transliterated them. I might add, that having looked at photographs of the papyrus, I do not see certain of the signs which he restores on line 22. The only clearly visible one is the {z}, and I have not bothered to transliterate it because one cannot really make terribly much sense out of these few signs anyway. Also, the number of slashes does not necessarily indicate the length of the lacuna perfectly. To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Westcar: Page 80 This piece of transliteration follows immediately after the first one I sent. It begins at the very end of the first line of De Buck's Page 80. In Lichtheim, see Page 218, third paragraph. Numbers in Parentheses are footnotes, and they can be found at the bottom of the post. I have also corrected corrupted or Late Egypian writings using parnetheses. xr m-xt, spr=f r Ddj. To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Looking for translation of "the travels of an egyptian" Can somebody help me to find this translation? I have the hieroglyphic text of "the travels of an egyptian" in Budge's Reading Lessons (Dover). Unfortunately, I don't have any translation of this text (which is different from the travels of Wen Amon (Ounamon). "the travels of an egyptian" = BM papyrus No.10,247 previousely translated in: Birch, Select Papyri Chabas, Voyages d'un Egyptien 1866 Goodwin, Cambridge Essays Record of the Past Vol II -- Amicales salutations / kind regards / mit freundlichen Gruessen, Marc. /////// ( o o ) ----oOOo-----U-----oOOo----------------------------------- Marc DIEBOLD Universit. Louis Pasteur Strasbourg France 4 rue Blaise Pascal 67070 STRASBOURG FRANCE Internl: Phone: (33)3.88.416.149 Fax: (33)3.88.416.060 France : Tel: 03.88.416.149 Fax: 03.88.416.060 mailto:diebold@cournot.u-strasbg.fr Francais: http://cournot.u-strasbg.fr/diebold/homepage.htm English : http://cournot.u-strasbg.fr/diebold/us.htm ---------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 12:09:26 -0500 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: mjj@netins.net (Mary Jo Jackel) Subject: Re: AEL Transliteration of Westcar > It is OK to ask whatever you >need to ask, and no one should be made to feel small for asking. There >are people at all levels monitoring, and we should help one another as >much as we can. This is an opportunity to get something out of the list, >so don't be shy. Just ask! > > >Sincerely, Geoffrey Graham >sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu As a beginner working alone I would appreciate it if someone would tell me what the "sDm" means. I have encountered it many times but have not found any explanation for what it is telling me. I know that every dicipline has it's code words and abbreviations and I hate to show my ignorance. You said to ask so thank you for your kindness. Mary Jo Jackel ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 16:56:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Definition of "sDm=f" Hi, Mary Jo, Welcome to discussion on AEL! > As a beginner working alone I would appreciate it if someone would tell me > what the "sDm" means. I have encountered it many times but have not found > any explanation for what it is telling me. I know that every dicipline has > it's code words and abbreviations and I hate to show my ignorance. You said > to ask so thank you for your kindness. I am really glad that you have asked this question. It is true that "sDm=f" (pronounced "sedjemef") is a jargon word in Egyptology. Sometimes we forget that not everyone has been reading about Egyptian grammar for some time. In Egyptian there are various different kinds of sentences; some are nominal, some adverbial, and some verbal. There are several ways to make verbal sentences. One of the common ones is with the sDm=f. "sDm" is the verb "hear" in Egyptian. This verb has been arbitrarily selected as a good regular transitive verb which can be conjugated and used to produce paradigms in grammar textbooks. In Latin they use "amare", "love", in Arabic they use "qatala", "kill". Certain verbs become customary in the literature of grammarians, because they serve well to demonstrate grammatical forms. One of the verbal conjugations used in Egyptian invloves using the verb with its subject following it. To say "may the lord hear", Egyptian would construct the sentence like so: "sDm nb" ("hear" + "lord"). If we substitute the pronoun "he" for "lord", then we have to use a suffix pronoun: "may he hear" > "sDm=f". Because "he" has come to be designated as a representative of the entire suffix pronoun paradigm, one refers to the construction of "verb + subject" as a "sDm=f". This {=f} ending lets the reader know that the grammarian is refering to the verb form, the subject of which FOLLOWS the verb root (the sDm=f). There are other verb forms, the subjects of which precede, so this is an important distinction. The problem is that in Egyptian there were actually at least four different meanings associated with the sDm=f. This is why Egyptologists talk about them so much. In strong, regular verbs, because Egyptians did not write vowels, we cannot detect any orthographic differences in these forms. However, there are weak verbs which exhibit certain irregularities in various of the forms of the sDm=f. After many years of studying these anomalies, scholars came up with various theories as to what was going on. Before Gardiner, people did not get terribly systematic in their treatment of the sDm=f, and translations were rather loose. Gardiner defined two kinds of sDm=f. He recognized that there might be a distinction between perfective and imperfective forms. Later, Polotsky was able to distinguish four separate sDm=f's, by carefully going back and forth between Coptic, Late Egyptian, and the earlier stages of the language. What he particularly noticed was that certain anomalous forms always occurred in sentences with prepositional phrases. This eventually helped him to see that some Egyptian verbs seemed to emphasize these adverbial adjuncts. Here is a list of the known forms of the sDm=f with the variations that occur in some of the weak and irregular verbs: Verb Type |indicative |Subjunctive |Circumstantial |Emphasizing "hear" sDm=f sDm=f sDm=f sDm=f "love" mr=f mrj=f mr=f mrr=f "be cool" qb=f qb=f qbb=f qbb=f "give" rdj=f dj=f dj=f dd=f "see" m3=f m3(n)=f m33=f m33=f "come" jj=f jj.t=f jj=f jj=f "bring" jn=f jn.t=f jn=f jnn=f Indicative: Indicative is the least common form of the sDm=f. It indicates regular present tense or past. It usually needs to have the particle "jw" in front, or a fronted subject. There is a chance that in some cases, the "indicative" is actually a circumstantial form which has been used in an existential sentence: "jw sDm=f", "The case is while he hears." = "He hears." However, it is best to just translate it as a simple indicative verb in English. In both Old Egyptian and Late Egyptian the indicative sDm=f often has a past tense meaning as well. However, in Middle Egyptian this seems to have happened less. Indicative: "he hears"/"he heard". Subjunctive: In the study of sDm=f's we use this term some what loosely. Actually there are two moods which it includes: subjunctive and prospective. In Old Egyptian, one can distinguish more or less between the two, however in Middle Egyptian the morphology no longer helps us in this regard. Subjunctive: "may he hear"/"let him hear"/"that he might hear" Prospective "he will hear". Circumstantial: This is a dependent clause verb form. The best analogy for it is in the Semitic languages. In Arabic there is something called a "Haal" clause. In English we have to use words like "when", "as", "while", "and", "although", etc. to express these types of clauses, but Afroasiatic languages needed no special connective words. Circumstantial: "as he hears"/"(he) hearing"/"and he hears"/"when he hears"/"although he hears", etc... Emphasizing: You will also find the terms "Nominal" and "Emphatic" used for this form. I do not like either one of them because they both sound misleading. If you call it "nominal", you are placing too much stress on its being a noun, and in reality, it might have been a noun, but we do not translate it as such into our modern languages. If you call it "emphatic" you run the risk of making people think that it is the verb which is emphasized, when actually quite the contrary is the case. I call the form "emphasizing" because what the form does is emphasize another element in the sentence, and it actually DE-EMPHASIZES the verb form itself. In the sentence "I go to the store." one could emphasize various words and cause a difference in meaning. If the sentence were said in answer to the question "Where are you going?" I would wish to lay the stress on the phrase "to the store": "I am going TO THE STORE." Barring the use of capital letters, which I have used to demonstrate this point, the way that written English can accomplish this feat is by making a cleft sentence: "It is to the store that I am going." Egyptians also needed to emphasize prepositional phrases and adverbs. They accomplished this by using the emphasizing sDm=f. Example: "sDm=f m Xnw", "he hears IN THE CAPITAL." or "It is in the capital that he hears." or "His hearing is in the capital." Emphasizing: "his hearing" I hope that this has been of some help. I also hope that I have not inadvertantly misinformed you about it. The sDm=f is a hotly debated topic in Egyptian grammar, and not all of us feel that we have a complete grasp of its nuances. The only way to learn them is through lots of practice. Yours, Geoffrey Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 7 Apr 1997 23:20:10 -0500 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: mjj@netins.net (Mary Jo Jackel) Subject: Re: AEL Definition of "sDm=f" Thank you Geoffrey for a very helpful explanation. Mary Jo ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 15:04:23 +0200 From: Marc DIEBOLD To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Request: Informations about some books. I'd like to buy the following books at eisenbrauns.com I don't have any Idea of their content. Please help me.... 1. De Buck Eg. Reading book. Everybody here seems to know this book. What text are published? In hierogyphics? With translation? 2. Blackmann Middle-Eg. Stories What text are published? In hierogyphics? With translation? 3. Gardiner Late Eg. Stories What text are published? In hierogyphics? With translation? 4. E. Wente Lettrers from ancient Egypt What text are published? In hierogyphics? With translation? Thank you for your help. -- Amicales salutations / kind regards / mit freundlichen Gruessen, Marc. /////// ( o o ) ----oOOo-----U-----oOOo----------------------------------- Marc DIEBOLD Universit. Louis Pasteur Strasbourg France 4 rue Blaise Pascal 67070 STRASBOURG FRANCE Internl: Phone: (33)3.88.416.149 Fax: (33)3.88.416.060 France : Tel: 03.88.416.149 Fax: 03.88.416.060 mailto:diebold@cournot.u-strasbg.fr Francais: http://cournot.u-strasbg.fr/diebold/homepage.htm English : http://cournot.u-strasbg.fr/diebold/us.htm ---------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== From: "YED" To: "AEgyptian-List" Cc: "Geoffroy Graham" Subject: AEL Re : Definition of "sDm=f" form Date: Tue, 8 Apr 1997 22:48:51 +0200 I want to send my thanks to Geoff Graham for his explanation relating to; the different senses, forms and uses of "sDm=f" form. I recodevered some of my uncertain translations and some things appeared to me clearer. "and the light came" thanks again from a student who realize he don't know much. amicalement, Yves Dupont - Lyon Croix-Rousse - France ydupont@lyonnet.dtr.fr ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 08 Apr 1997 22:22:09 -0700 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Stephen Fryer Subject: Re: AEL Transliteration of Westcar At 08:15 PM 97/04/06 -0400, you wrote: Thanks for providing us with the transcriptions. Hopefully we can get the hieroglyphic text available soon, as I find it hard to work from a transcription - a certain amount of semantic information gets lost in the elimination of determinatives, etc. The quickest, and least band-width hungry way to do this is to use the Manuel de Codage format. Mike Dyall-Smith sent me the first page as he created it with MacScribe to check how compatible it was with WinGlyph (demo version). I emended it and sent it back to see if my WinGlyph version worked OK for his MacScribe, but I haven't heard back from him yet about it. Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services Lund, BC V0N 2G0 Canada ***************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have. ***************************** ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 00:42:21 -0700 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Stephen Fryer Subject: AEL Reading Passage Here is a (reasonably) straightforward passage for you to read. It is in Manuel de Codage format, and should be able to display OK with WinGlyph or MacScribe. Admiral Ahmose relates his deeds cut here ------------------------------------------------------ Hr:r:pt D33:n-i-t-i-A1-Z3 N12:ms*s D&d-f D&d-A1-n-t:n:Z2 r:T-A1-Z3 ! nb:t D37-A1 r:x:Y1-t:n:Z2 Hz-Hz-Hz xpr-r:t n:A1 E9-w-a:D40-k-w-i ! M nbw:N33A z:p*zp 4-3 x*t:f Hr:1 n N16 r Dr:r-f Hm-A1-Z3 Hm*t*B1:Z2 ! r mi-t:t i-r:Z2 D63-Y1v-k-w-i M A-H-t*N21:Z2 aSA:Z2 wr:r-t ! i-w r:n-A1 n q:n:D40 M ir:t n:f D35:n H-t:tm-m wr M ! N16 p:n D&t&tA ini-n:A1 wr:r-i-t-i-T17 z:z-m-E6-s n:t*y Hr:r-s M ! s-q:Aa7-A13-anx !! ------------------------------------------------------- cut here Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services Lund, BC V0N 2G0 Canada ***************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have. ***************************** ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 20:26:03 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Reading Passage/MacScribe/ To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Reply to: Reading Passage/MacScribe/WinGlyph Regarding Stephen Fryer's recent Ahmose text given in Winglyph/MacScribe format. As Stephen mentioned earlier we have found some incompatibility between the formats produced by Winglyph and MacScribe. Stephen found my MacScribe format had lost characters. Now, with Stephen's text I found several characters missing (replaced by question marks) in MacScribe. This is a real nuisance! At present, the best solution I can only think of is using graphic files available from a web page. This also overcomes the problems people may have in downloading the Wglyph/MacScribe demo's. Mark or Graham will be announcing the availability of a sizable chunk of the Westcar papyrus as GIF's (easily downloadable/printable). I asked Hans van den Berg (CCER) for his comments on this incompatibility between WG and MS and he has given his permission for his answer to be repeated here (below the line). Feel free to be very excited.... ----------------------------------------- "MacScribe's sign groups are different from Glyph's groups. The problem here is actually a problem of incompatibility with the... Manuel de Codage. The Manuel doesn't provide code conventions for these groups, so separate solutions were devised for MS and Glyph. Unfortunately, they aren't compatible. That is, up till now. Glyph 2.0 --to be released soon-- does read MacScribe's group notations, thus doing away with the problem, but with the 1.1 demo it certainly won't work. Glyph 2.0 will come with a *free* Glyph viewer, which will be a good solution for people who now use the demo to display Glyph texts. To enhance its graphic functionality, however, Glyph 2.0 will introduce a new encoding standard (hooray!) based on SGML, called EHML or "Egyptian Hieroglyphic Markup Language". Keep your eye on this development, it's going to be tremendously important for the future of hieroglyphic text processing. After all, the classical Manuel de Codage is hopelessly outdated...! Greetings, Hans" ----------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 09 Apr 1997 21:06:53 +0100 From: Mark Wilson To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Reading exercise ready!! Dear all, I am pleased to be able to announce that the reading exercise from the Westcar Papyrus is now available on the web page. Simply point your browser at http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ and click on "Khufu and the magician". I'd like to say a big thank you to Michael Dyal-Smith for his excellent work setting the text for us, and also to Geoffrey Graham for overseeing the work. Both have been working frantically over the last few days preparing these texts for the list. What to do now ============== The following have been suggested for how we might proceed next. 1. There are 2 pages of hieroglyphic text. Let's just look at the first page for the next 2 or 3 weeks. If you have any questions about the second page, please save them until we get to that page. 2. Anyone who is willing to have a go at translating the text is invited to submit their translation to the list, BUT please only post 2 or 3 sentences of translation per person. It doesn't matter if there is a little duplication, so long as we eventually get translations for the whole page. 3. If you get stuck, or have any questions at all about the text, please do ask!! Hopefully this text will bring out some interesting language points. Enjoy!! Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 17:45:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Westcar and a brief hyatus Hello, Thank you, Mark and Mike for getting the web pages ready. I think you have both done a splendid job! Mark has coordinated everything so smoothly, and Mike has put long hours into making the most accurate and readable set of glyphs possible, as well as creating a home page for the various pages of the story. Be sure you don't miss paying the pages a visit. I am really excited about this phase of the list's development and I hope that people of all levels will feel to contribute on list. Regrettably, I am preparing to leave for the American Research Center in Cairo conference in Ann Arbor, Michigan just as the new site has become ready for the list. If discussion begins, please do not mistakenly feel that I am neglecting anyone by not answering any questions addressed to me. On the other hand, maybe some of you will be relieved, since I have a tendency to talk a lot on list! ;-) I will be back on Monday, and hope that I will not have missed too much of the fun by then. Sincerely, Geoffrey Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 10 Apr 1997 08:13:50 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Reading exercise/Wes To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Reply to: RE>AEL Reading exercise/Westcar Dear AEL members, My thanks to Mark and Graham regarding the Westcar papyrus project. Graham had the idea, motivation, and skill. Mark supported it with his usual enthusiasm and an uncanny ability to handle web servers and file transfers. I just like writing glyphs. I would urge all members who have an interest in learning ancient egyptian (even the humble, shy, or otherwise lurking types) to 'pick up the reed' and take advantage of what is being offered. You have a classic text, a possible transcription (to be haggled over), and people willing to offer assistance. For those with MacScribe here are the files for the two GIF's of the Westcar papyrus. Those with real versions of Winglyph (ie. non-demo) will be able to make the necessary changes by comparison to the GIF's. The files will allow you to reformat the text, or use some of it in your posts of transcriptions and translations etc. Happy reading! Mike Dyall-Smith, Melbourne, Australia mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au First page: (copy only the text between the two lines). -------------------------------------- ++Created by : MacScribe 1.2b4 (c) 1989-1993 Eric Aubourg +ORL aHa-D36:D54-p:Z7-ir:n-sw-t:n-zA-G5-D37:D37-f-A50-r-md-d:t-A2-D{{25,0,95}}&&d{{51,109,58}}-f-#-.-.-#-A2-n-z{{25,425,100}}:p{{40,5,100}}-#-.-.-! #-.-#-.-.-#-m-r:x-Y1:t-n-n:t-tyw-M33\t1-Z9:D54-D35-r:x-Y1:n-X1-Z7-mA:Aa11-D36:X1*Z5-Y1:Z2-r-g:r-grg-G37:Z2-! .-#-.-.-#-Hm-Z1-G7-k-m-h-A-W-Y1:Z2-k-D{{25,0,100}}&&z{{25,197,65}}-k-D35-r:x-Y1:f-#-.-.-.-.-.-.-! #-D{{25,0,95}}&&d{{51,109,58}}-i-n-Hm-Z1-G7-f-i-Ss:z-t-A2-p:Z7-G5-D37:D37-f-A50-zA-G7-A1-! D{{25,0,95}}&&d{{51,109,58}}-i-n-sw-t:n-zA-G5-D37:D37-f-A50-i-Z7-wn:n-n:D-s-G37:A1-Dd-Dd-i-Y1:A1-r:n-A2-f-N42:z-A7-f-m-! .-Dd-Dd-Y1-<-s-nfr-f:r-Z7->-mA:Aa11-D36-xrw-Z7-A2-! i-Z7:f-m-n:D-s-G37:A1-n-M4-X1:V1-10-i-Z7:f-Hr-Z1-M42-m-A2-t:X2-X4:Z2-V1{{25,266,63}}*V1{{166,266,63}}*V1{{306,266,63}}:V1{{115,5,63}}*V1{{241,5,63}}-r-mn:n-D41:F51-n-E1-Z1-m-i-Z7:f-F51:Z2-! .-H-n:a-s-wr:r-i-mw-A2-H-q:t-Hnqt:Z2-d:z-Hnqt-Z7-r-mn:n-Y1-m-h-r-Z7-ra-Z1-p:n-i-Z7:f-r:x-Y1-! .-Tz:z-Z7:D40-D1-Z1-H-s-q-Z9:D40-i-Z7:f-r:x-Y1-r:a:t-Sm-m-D54-mA-A-i-F29-Z1-Hr-Z1-sA-Z1-f-V12-Z1-f-! .-Hr-Z1-tA:N23*Z1-i-Z7:f-r:x-Y1-t:n-nw-Z7-T14-G41-Y1:Z2-O45{{69,239,102}}:t{{25,70,53}}*pr{{209,35,47}}-M33\t1-n:t-wn:n-t:pr-n:t-t{{25,30,67}}*G26{{210,0,95}}*Z4{{579,35,64}}-G7-! i-s-t-wr:r-S:ra-Hm-Z1:n-sw-bit-<-x:f-Z7->-mA:Aa11-D36-xrw-Z7-A2-Hr-Z1-H-H-y:D54-n:f-n:A-n-i-p:t-O45-pr-M33\t1-n:t-wn:n-t:pr-! .-n:t-t{{25,30,67}}*G26{{210,0,95}}*Z4{{579,35,64}}-G7-r-ir:t-n-f-mi-t:t-Y1-i-r:y-D35-Axt:t*pr-f-! D{{25,0,100}}&&d{{45,119,61}}-i-n-Hm-Z1-G7-f-D{{25,0,100}}&&z{{15,147,61}}-k-i-r:f-G5-D37:D37-f-A50-zA-G7-A1-W25-N35:X1*Z7-k-n:A1-sw-Z7-! aHa-a:n-s-s-p:d-M44-Y1-aHa-a-Z7-P1:Z2-n-sw-t:n-zA-G5-D37:D37-f-A50-! SA-A-z:D54-p-Z7-ir:n-f-m-xnt-n:t-X-ti-i-i-t:P1-r-Dd-Dd-Y1-<-s-nfr-f:r-Z7->-mA:Aa11-D36-xrw-Z7-A2-! x:r-xr-m-xt:x-t:D54-n:A-n-aHa-a-Z7-P1:Z2-mn:n-i-qd-P1-r-mr:r-i-i-t{{25,375,100}}:N23{{38,5,100}}-Z1-SA-A-z:D54-p-Z7-! .-ir:n-f-m-Hr:r-t:y-D54-s-nDm-m-Y1:n-f-m-q:n-i-W-D32:xt-n-U116-n{{25,425,100}}:Z1{{185,10,100}}*Z1{{370,10,100}}-M1{{163,5,95}}*xt{{25,174,95}}-n:b-bA-A-W-xt:Z2-! .-m-s-s-nDm-m-M1{{163,5,95}}*xt{{25,174,95}}-g:n-X-N34-r:f-m-nbw! ------------------------------------------------------- Second page ------------------------------------------------------- ++Created by : MacScribe 1.2b4 (c) 1989-1993 Eric Aubourg +ORL x:r-xr-m-xt:x-t:D54-N11:r-D54:f-r-Dd-Dd-Y1:A1-! aHa-a:n-sk-H-Y1-G41-A-q:n-i-W-D32:xt-! aHa-a:D54-p-W-ir:n-f-r-W-Sd:d-A2-f-! gm-m-n:f-sw-W-s-M37:r-A55-Hr-Z1-t^^U1-A-m-Aa19-Z1-m-z:S-Z9-O1-n-#-.-#-pr-Z1-f-! .-Hm-W:A1-Xr:r-tp-Z1-f-Hr-Z1-a-m-a-m-D51:D40-n:f-k-i-i-A1-Hr-Z1-s-i-in:n-V1:D40-D56-D56-f:y-! aHa-a:n-D{{26,93,78}}:d{{25,179,50}}:n{{35,15,67}}-sw-t:n-zA-G5-D37:D37-f-A50-.-i-W-x{{338,225,100}}:r{{25,5,81}}*t{{650,0,100}}-Y1:Z2-k-mi-i-anx-n:x-! .-tp-Z1-m-t:n-i-A19-x:r-i-A-W:t-A19-st-t:pr-mn:n-i-y-qd-Z6-st-t:pr-q:r-s-Q6:D40-! .-st-t:pr-F36-A-Y1-tA:N23*Z1-s-M37:r-A55-r-O42-p:ra-H6-W-G37-m-xA-A-t:Aa2-G37:Z2-! .-D35:n-k-H-k-H-t-A2-n:t-s-r-i-i-t-A2-! Aa27-nw-A2-x:r*t-Y1:Z2-i-mA:x-i-i-F39{{25,139,84}}:Z9{{43,0,63}}-Y1:A1-p-W-! ii-i-D54:n-A1-aA:a-A-N31-r:n-i-s-A2-r:k-m-F13:p-W:t-Z9-A2-n:t-i-t:f-G7-A1-<-x:f-W->-mA:Aa11-a-xrw-W-A2-! M42-m-A2-k-A50-s-s-Y1:Z2-n-D37:D37-sw-t:n-G7-D:f-A-W-G41-Y1:Z2-n-M42-m-W:Z2-Sms-s-W-D54:A1-M33\t3-f-! O35-b-D54:f-t-W-m-aHa-a:w-ra:Z1-nfr-f:r-n-i-t:f-W-G7-Z2:k-M42-m-W:Z2-nTr-Xr:r-xAst-! D&&d-i-n-Dd-Dd-i-Y1:A1-p:n-m-Htp:t-p-zp{{25,217,87}}:Z1{{100,5,87}}*Z1{{204,5,87}}-G5-D37:D37-f-A50-sw-t:n-zA-mr:r-i-i-A2-n-i-t:f-G7-f-! H*W14:z-A2-t-W-i-t:f-G7-k-<-x:f-W->-mA:Aa11-a-xrw-W-A2-! s-xnt-n:t-D20-Y1:f-st-t:pr-k-m-i-A-W-A19-A1:Z2-! Sn:n-t:V1-A2-kA-Z1-k-x:t-Y1:Z2-r-x*t:f-Z6:k-! r:x-Y1-bA-Z1-Z6:k-N31{{25,185,120}}:t{{35,5,80}}*Z2{{310,5,65}}-a:f-D46:X1*Y1-r-s-b-x:t-O32-pr-n:t-H-b-s-S28-A24-b-bA-A-g-ir-! nD-nw-A2-x:r*t-Y1:Z2-sw-t:n-zA-p-W-! aHa-a:n-Aw-W-D40:n-n:f-sw-t:n-zA-G5-D37:D37-f-A50-a:Z1-W:y-f:y-! aHa-a:n-s-aHa-a:D54-n:f-sw-W-! w-U29-A-D54:p-W-ir:n-f-H-n:a:f-r-mr:r-i-i-t:N23-Z1-Hr-Z1-r:a:t-n:f-a:Z1-f ------------------------------------------------ ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 9 Apr 1997 16:46:41 -0400 (EDT) From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Westcar Text Dear all, When posting in connection with the Westcar text, please start the subject line with WESTCAR so that people can easily find your posts related to the exercise. It might also be worth indicating which line(s) of the hieroglyphic transcript you are refering to. For example, if you have something to say about line 1 start the subject with: WESTCAR translation line 1 or WESTCAR transliteration line 1 depending on whether you are talking about the translation or transliteration. If your post doesn't easily fit into one of these categories, just use your judgement. Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ Aditionally, Geoffrey Graham sends us the following suggestions/guidlines for attempting the Westcar text now on the web page:- Try to identify the verbs in the text. Then, if you feel up to it, suggest what form of the verb that each example represents. If you like, you can tackle this one or two sentences at a time. If you designate these forms incorrectly, there is no shame involved. You will not be the only one OR the first one to have difficulty with Egyptian grammar. I make plenty of mistakes myself, and I look forward to getting them corrected so that I can learn and improve. Do not be afraid to post! This is what this list is for. Those who can help you will gladly do so, and I do not think that you will be ridiculed. Conversely, when someone is kind enough to share their work with us, we should try to acknowledge them, and enter into discussion with them, if we think we know something that can help, or if we have a relevant point, or even a question which their posting inspired. No one should ever put down someone else's work in any way. We are talking about the grammar of a very difficult language, and everyone goes through all the learning stages along the way. If you are not ready to talk about verbs or their various moods or nuances, then check the transliteration against the hieroglyphs to the best of your ability, and then ask questions when you cannot see the relationship between the two. Ask, ask, ask! This is the surest way to get answers and learn. And, someone just might find places where I, the transliterator have made errors. I am VERY open to suggestions as to how to interpret the text. My transliteration is NO final word on how it is to be read. There are various interpretations which even a seasoned translator will have to decide between, and maybe one of them will make more sense to you. If someone feels up to it, maybe they could offer us an alternative transliteration suggesting a different translational nuance. I almost need not ask for this, as I am sure there are plenty of people out there that can and will do just that! ;-) Take as much of the text as you feel comfortable working with. You can decide to translate one sentence every day. Do not be afraid of band-width clutter. I believe that most of us can benefit by tackling each sentence in some depth. There is no reason that we should not have a thread for each important segment of the papyrus. Then people joining in can move from one thread to the next WHEN they are ready to do so, even if this means that a thread might tackle the same things more than once for more than one questioner or new translator. On the other hand, it might also be of value to have threads for different levels, so long as there are a few higher level people who will take it upon themselves to monitor and add good advice and correction in the lower level threads. What I would like to see here is the fulfillment of this list's goals. We need the input of the new students, so that they will be served by the list.. Until we have people of ALL levels discussing this material, we will not have reached the full potential of the AEL. Yours, Geoffrey Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== From: akirklan@unlgrad1.unl.edu (Alan Kirkland) Subject: AEL hieroglyphic copy of Satire of the Trades To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 11 Apr 1997 10:01:18 -0500 (CDT) Dear all, I would appreciate it if someone out there could tell me if there is available a copy of the hieroglyphic transcription for the "Satire of the Trades". I have found a number of English and French translations, but what I need at the moment is the hieroglyphic transcrition. Any ideas? Any and all help would be more than appreciated. Thanx lots, and by the bye when did the preposition [m] become "as" instead of "in"? Saw this in a recent set of examples, and am wondering. Cheers, Alan -- "We stand on the shoulders of Giants, who were lifted up by Titans, and all we can and will accomplish we owe to them." Alan F.C.W. Kirkland University of Nebraska akirklan@unlgrad1.unl.edu ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 14:12:42 GMT From: AMRHERO@acs.auc.eun.eg To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: RE: AEL hieroglyphic copy of Satire of the Trades To my knowledge, the complete hierographic text of the Satire of the Trades could be found in Wolfgang Helck. Die Lehre des DW3-Htjj. 2 vols. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz, 1970. Amrhero ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 02:37:43 -0400 (EDT) From: NebetHet@aol.com To: akirklan@unlgrad1.unl.edu, AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL hieroglyphic copy of Satire of the Trades In a message dated 4/11/97 5:56:35 PM, akirklan@unlgrad1.unl.edu (Alan Kirkland) wrote: > I would appreciate it if someone out there could tell me if there >is available a copy of the hieroglyphic transcription for the "Satire >of the Trades". I have found a number of English and French >translations, but what I need at the moment is the hieroglyphic >transcrition. Any ideas? Any and all help would be more than >appreciated. Em hotep Alan! My course with Frank Yurco is currently working on this text... you can find a German translation with the hieroglyphs (not the clearest, but they'll do) in: Die Lehre des Dw3-Htjj (in 2 Teilen) Textzusammenstellung von Wolfgang Helck 1970, Otto Harrassowitz, Wiesbaden ISBN 3-447-00789-3 I hope this helps. It's a challenge, with all the Ramesside additions and errors. Ankh udja seneb em hotep! (Tamara)=| (Rev. Tamara Siuda, http://users.aol.com/hetnetjer/private/hetntr.html) ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 03:20:48 -0500 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Christopher Jacobs Subject: AEL WESTCAR lines 1-7, et al. (i.e. introductory disclaimer) I have found the past two months of exchanges fascinating, if often over my head, and occasionally actually at a level below my limited knowledge. I am vaguely familiar with a couple of English re-tellings of this passage, but I am enjoying trying to decipher the original. I should preface my (likely very crude) translation by saying Egyptology and ancient Egyptian have been essentially a hobby since I was in high school some 25 years ago. I have taught English composition and Intro to Film at the college level, have a very basic knowledge of German, but only two years of Latin, one year of Greek (the term "aroist," incidentally comes from AORISTOS, meaning "unbounded" or "undefined" --a Greek verb form usually used for simple past and which is not in the perfective, imperfective, subjunctive, imperative, et al.), plus a smattering of "tourist" Arabic and French, and some interesting but less-than-comprehensive introductory Coptic lessons I downloaded from the net. I bought a copy of Gardiner at age 18 (when it was still only $10.50 new), starting from the beginning several times, but have always gotten bogged down between lessons 10 and 20. Budge's "Easy" Lessons in Hieroglyphs seemed like going from First Grade into College after one day, but started to make some sense after plowing through the first 10 chapters of Gardiner, even clarifying a few things. The following was arrived at using a combination of Gardiner, Budge's 2-vol. dictionary and the vocabulary to his reading book (Dover reprints), and Faulkner's Middle Egyptian Dictionary. The most difficult part is locating and transliterating unfamiliar signs I have not memorized the sounds for, mainly through Gardiner's sign list. Anyway, here goes, rather literally (with parenthetical comments)... 1) Stood up this (or is "pu" here more like the Coptic "pe"?) did king son of Horus give to a speech he said ... in time = "He, this king son of Horus, has stood up and given a speech. He said ... in time" (or is it: "This one stood up and gave the king, son of Horus, a speech...") 2) ... in knowledge of which ( - ? - ) not that knowledge of true (things) to false (things) 3) your majesty in your time yourself he knew not. 4) Said by his majesty: What (did) this king give, son of Horus? 5) Said by King, son of Horus, There is a commoner, Djedi his name, (implied: "when," or "at the time?") he sat 6) in stability ("he dwelt for a long time?") Seneferu, true of voice, 7) He is as a commoner of (to? from?) year 5; he is upon eating 500 loaves and shoulders of beef ( - ? - ) ("as he is meat?!") I warned you it would be crude. I'm sure future submissions will be far more elegant. (But I love those idioms "He stood up and did" and "he is upon doing" though I am not positive what their exact sense should tranlate as.) I also think it would be very much of interest, as has been suggested, if a GIF or JPG of the hieratic version were also available to compare with the glyphs. I hope this has not been too long and/or off-topic... I, for one, would be intersted to know the level of other beginners in this list and brief accounts of personal struggles with the language to put my own in perspective. Chris Jacobs Egyptophile and would-be historical novelist (set in 4th Cent. A.D. Egypt) ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 12 Apr 1997 21:49:15 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Request: Informations about some books. >>>>> "Marc" == Marc DIEBOLD writes: Marc> 1. De Buck Eg. Reading book. Everybody here seems to know Marc> this book. What text are published? In hierogyphics? With Marc> translation? A wide range of texts in hieroglyphs. No translation. Akin to Sethe'lesestucke. Middle Egyptian Autobiograaphies, royal stelas from the new kingdom, a few litterary texts... Marc> 2. Blackmann Middle-Eg. Stories What text are published? Marc> In hierogyphics? With translation? Hierogyphs only. Sinouhe + the shipwrecked sailor. For Sinouhe, a more recent edition has appeared in Bibliotheca AEgyptiaca. Marc> 3. Gardiner Late Eg. Stories What text are published? In Marc> hierogyphics? With translation? Lots of Hierogyphics tales in Late Egyptian. The two brothers, Horus and Seth, Wennamun, truth and falsehood, the doomed prince, the shepard who saw a princess, and one or two more. Marc> 4. E. Wente Lettrers from ancient Egypt What text are Marc> published? In hierogyphics? With translation? Only translations, of texts from all periods. For original letters in late Egyptian, see Cerny's late ramesside letters. Hope this helps, Serge ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 18:05:23 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Westcar Text, line 1 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Reply to: RE>AEL Westcar Text, line 1 Just to get the ball rolling. What a terrible first line to analyse! I make the first part of the sentence a form of bipartite nominal syntax of the form: infinitive pw iri.n=f (=past relative form) The infinitive is a verbal noun, and is the predicate. The subject is past the relative form of iri (to do/act/etc), which is an adjectival phrase. In this case the translation might be: "What prince Hrddf did concerning this matter/speech was to rise, saying." Or more simply, "Prince Hrddf rose and said..." I have not looked at any published translations. I am not a professional egyptologist. Please feel free to ATTACK (:-)> [I have a beard]. Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne, Australia mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 19:42:21 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Westcar Text, line 1 To: to AEL REGARDING RE>AEL Westcar Text, line 1 > a form of bipartite nominal syntax er, I meant tripartite (predicate pw subject). The Dd=f is straightforward. Dd (to say/speak) with suffix pronoun (3rd person, singular). The situation is a narrative relating a past event, so the tense in english would reflect this: "he said...", or just tack it on to the previous with "... and said...". Mike Dyall-Smith, Melbourne, Australia ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 13 Apr 1997 14:14:00 +0100 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Marc Line Subject: AEL WESTCAR (Part 1) lines 5-8 Hello folks In the hope that one post will burst the dam as it were...... :) After nearly 6 hours of slaving over a hot Faulkner, the first part of the Westcar exercise is fully translated in front of me. Damned if I can work from translit though so I'm grateful for the glyphs. Hopefully, the following will make sense. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (line5) Said by, king's son, Heru-tata-f, is, exists, commoner, Djedi, name, his, dwell, he, in, (line6) Djed, Sneferu, vindicated/justified. (line7) He is, as, commoner, of, years, 110. He is, on, eat, bread, 500, arm/shoulder, meat of a bull, from, its flesh, (line8) together with, drink, beer, beer measure, many, as well as, in, daytime, this. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ All of which I take to mean: (see notes below) Prince Heru-tata-f said, "It is true to say that there is a commoner/person by the name of Djedi who lives in the estate of Sneferu. He is 110 years old. He eats 500 loaves of bread, together with the shoulder of a bull, as well as drinking many measures of beer in a single day." Notes: 1. Heru-tata-f, presumably one of the sons of Khufu? Should this be better taken as something like Djedef-Hor? I don't know what makes me think that except perhaps for the word-play potentials which might exist in such a pronunciation. (Djedef-Hor / Djedi / Djed-Sneferu) 2. I've used the word 'Prince' to replace 'king's son' even though there seems to be a distinction between the two states in the Egyptian mind. Is it too rash to do this? 3. The occurrence of person and place names raises the question of how does one distinguish, except by context, when a group of glyphs is referring to a proper name? 4. I've taken Djed-Sneferu to mean "the estate of Sneferu, linking the Djed (stable/enduring) to the concept of estate via Dt (I10:X1:N16), meaning variously eternity/for ever/estate. Is this inspired, presumptuous or just plain stupid? Not being aware of a place by the name of Djed-Sneferu, it seemed like a useful get-out. :) 5. The justified/vindicated groups following the names within cartouches, I've taken to be meaning, "it is true to say" in prefix. I'm a little uneasy about that as it could just as easily, and likely more probably, be a part of the King's name-set. 6. Am I correct in thinking that the notion of someone being 110 years old is a regional colloquial term for someone who is advanced in years? I seem to remember the term being applied to someone in a Biblical context. 7. I am intrigued by Geoff's translit of (M23-X1:N35) as n.y-sw.t instead of swtn. Whilst it is, of course, in line with Gardiner, who says that the word probably was pronounced ni-swt, can anyone tell me whence Gardiner, and presumably others, drew that conclusion? 8. Ending on a lighter note, Khufu's determination to know the number of the secret chambers of the sanctuary of Djehuti seems to know no bounds if he is prepared to seek the counsel of a 110 year old obese drunk!! :)) All comments, corrections and blows to the head gratefully accepted and eagerly awaited!!! :)) My gratitude to all who have laboured long and hard to produce this stimulating exercise, thank you. Best regards Marc X ==============================================================================