Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 05:48:44 -0800 (PST) From: Orlando Mezzabotta Subject: Re: AEL new audio-video version of "The Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor " To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Dear Marianne, you write: >I suppose I am getting confused as to the purpose of your vocal >experiments. If you understand that certain final consonants were >mute, how does it serve the knowledge of ancient Egyptian phonology >to pronounce them in order "to make possible hearers more at ease"? *** Well, Marianne, I am not in a position to increase our knowledge of ancient Egyptian phonology, and I have always been very honest about it. It's out of my reach, definitely. So, what's the purpose? Why do I keep experimenting with Egyptian texts? This is my reply /nn njtjt/: 1) Personal fun. 2) My interest in prosody, meters and inner rhythm of languages. For the time being I'm more after accents and stresses, than vowel quality. Let's take for example /m pt/ It doesn't seem to me there is much difference if you pronounce [m(-) pe'] or [m(-) pi't] -- or, assuming the /m/ is stressed [e'mpe] / [e'mpit] or [me'pe] / [me'pit]. Now I certainly agree with you when you say that vocalization is crucial to the rhyme, but that is a subject I haven't yet dealt with. For the moment I limit myself to alliterations and puns. Although, honestly, I hardly believe there were rhymes, unless occasionally. But, I repeat, I haven't scanned the subject, yet. I'll be glad, though, to send you privately some audio samples of /isTw Hm=f m aH=f imi pr aA-xpr-kA-ra mi ra m xnnw pt/ according to the vocal reconstruction you suggest, in order to compare it with my own amateurish reconstruction. 3) It's my way (call it wishful thinking, if you like, or Frankensteinian arrogance) to give some life to texts that in most cases are treated just like the Eliotian "patient etherized upon a table" (The Song of J. Alfred Prufrock); corpses waiting to be grammatically anatomized. You write as well: >I can't unde= rstand your reason for doing what goes against the small >understanding we already have of pronunciation at all. "Comply with the written >form"? Since when? *** It may be a help to follow the text (and my audio reconstruction) for those who are not used to Ancient Egyptian sound. In conclusion I am sure scholars and academics will smile or laugh at my poor experiments (should they ever deign to give a look at them), but, honestly, I don't think to make much harm against "the small und= erstanding we already have of pronunciation at all". Or shall I be targeted as "public enemy"? Were that the case it would be quite simple to switch me off. (I'm only a virtual presence!) All this said, I wish to thank you for your criticism and your hints which I'll take into due (and critical) account for my possible future experiments. And, since we talk of rhymes: Allow me, please, to send you a kiss Orlando ============================================================================== From: "michel.blanc.06" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: RE: AEL new audio-video version of "The Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor " Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 15:47:41 +0100 Dear Orlando, In your reply to Marianne Luban comments on the subject you said: "Now I certainly agree with you when you say that vocalization is crucial to the rhyme, but that is a subject I haven't yet dealt with. For the moment I limit myself to  alliterations and puns. Although, honestly, I hardly believe there were rhymes, unless occasionally. But, I repeat, I haven't scanned the subject, yet." There is a short, but interesting, paper thay I would like to mention: Pierre Grandet and Bernard Mathieu, Introduction à la métrique égyptienne, Cours d'égyptien hiérogliphique, pp. 655-665. , Editions Kheops, Paris 1997. Michel Blanc ============================================================================== From: "Timothy A. Jackson" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL new audio-video version of "The Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor " Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 14:51:57 -0500 I have to say something in support of Signor Orlando Mezzabotta. The Ancient Egyptians spoke an indigenous African Language that grew out of the ground of the Nile valley and may have also carried forms descended from an unknown tongue originating in a common language alluded to in the Biblical Babel story. We have never heard any of them speak. While there is little or NO evidence of this other than the vestiges in cuneiform, triliteral formations in Hebrew, and the various forms of names in the Bible, etc., we can surely be open minded about this. Europe lived nearly a thousand years believing in the unsupported idea that mice were "spontaneously generated" by "germ-plasm" turning into creatures in piles of discarded cloth and garbage. We have to assume that there were honest and dedicated observers that did what they could with what they observed, and learned from the "authorities" of their time. I can tell from the principles of African music as played by the minstrels and griots of the various African cultures, that they had their own nomenclature regarding the "natural voices" of the instruments they played. As scientific Western educated people, we tend to look at Egyptian Grammar after the Latin methods, which have very well defined positions for each tense and declension of verb and noun. Looking at the tremendous variations of spelling and determinative of Egyptian language, it points to the idea that there may be rules or principles vastly different from the European (Latin) approach. I believe Signor Mezzabotta is providing a valuable approach to the concept noted by LeFeurvre in the eatly 1950's, of an "internal" approach to understanding Ancient Egyptian Grammar and Language. Respectfully submitted Timothy A. Jackson ============================================================================== From: "Marianne Luban" Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 18:14:52 GMT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: Re: AEL new audio-video version of "The Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor " ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Orlando Mezzabotta To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL new audio-video version of "The Tale of the Shipwrecked= Sailor " Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 05:48:44 -0800 (PST) >Dear Marianne, >>you write: >>I suppose I am getting confused as to the purpose of your vocal >>experiments. If you understand that certain final consonants were >>mute, how does it serve the knowledge of ancient Egyptian phonology >>to pronounce them in order "to make possible hearers more at ease"? >*** Well, Marianne, I am not in a position to increase >our knowledge of ancient Egyptian phonology, and I have always been >very honest about it. It's out of my reach, definitely. >So, what's the purpose? Why do I keep experimenting with Egyptian texts? >This is my reply /nn njtjt/: >1) Personal fun. >2) My interest in prosody, meters and inner rhythm of languages. >For the time being I'm more after accents and stresses, >than vowel quality. Dear Orlando, Yes, I realize you have always disparaged your own efforts but that does not answer my question about "making possible hearers more at ease". Personal fun, of course, but you put your recordings on a website and on YouTube. Who do you think is your audience? I would imagine it was people interested in the Egyptian language--and not so much those interested in poetical elements. Despite what some may believe, I think there are really no actual *experts" in Egyptian phonology--just people doing research in the subject. I believe that anyone who is willing to do this research can add to the body of knowledge. It was my impression that this was your goal. >Let's take for example /m pt/ >It doesn't seem to me there is much difference if you >pronounce [m(-) pe'] or [m(-) pi't] -- or, assuming the /m/ is stressed >[e'mpe] / [e'mpit]� or [me'pe] / [me'pit]. You mentioned vowels--and they really are not that crucial because some can be shaded to sound much alike--but the consonants are vital. Leaving off or vocalizing the final /t/ in "pt" makes a big difference. Coptic indicates there was no "t" sound, so why say it? When doing this, one is obliged to follow some guidelines. >Now I certainly agree with you when you say that vocalization >is crucial to the rhyme, but that is a subject I haven't yet dealt with. >For the moment I limit myself to alliterations and puns. >Although, honestly, I hardly believe there were rhymes, unless occasionally. >But, I repeat, I haven't scanned the subject, yet. There are more rhymes than I once thought, but you are generally correct. >3) It's my way (call it wishful thinking, if you like, >or Frankensteinian arrogance) to give some life to texts >that in most cases are treated just like the Eliotian >"patient etherized upon a table" (The Song of J. Alfred Prufrock); >corpses waiting to be grammatically anatomized. I'm on your side. But, in my opinion, even though full accuracy is never going to be possible, the goal should be "as much as possible". Under the circumstances, no matter how old the text, you probably should use the New Kingdom pronunciation because anything prior is too complicated on account of the grapheme [and phoneme] /A/. >You write as well: >>I can't understand your reason for doing what goes against the small >>understanding we already have of pronunciation at all. "Comply with the written >>form"? Since when? >*** It may be a help to follow the text (and my audio reconstruction) >for those who are not used to Ancient Egyptian sound. Here is where we disagree. In my opinion, this is the wrong kind of help. Because it suggests that spoken Egyptian was like the written--that what one saw was exactly what one got. Does a Brit on the BBC pronounce his final "r's" because they are written? Does a Frenchman vocalize the final "t" for the same reason? >In conclusion I am sure scholars and academics will smile or laugh >at my poor experiments (should they ever deign to give a look at them), >but, honestly, I don't think to make much harm against >"the small understanding we already have of pronunciation at all". >Or shall I be targeted as "public enemy"? >Were that the case it would be quite simple to switch me off. >(I'm only a virtual presence!) As far as I know, you are the only one reading ancient Egyptian texts aloud and asking people to have a listen. In my opinion, you have taken on quite a responsibility. But perhaps we view it differently. Mille baci Marianne Luban http://thetimetravelerreststop.blogspot.com/ ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 15:28:49 -0800 (PST) From: Orlando Mezzabotta Subject: Re: AEL new audio-video version of "The Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor " To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Dear Marianne, you say: >Dear Orlando, >Who do you think is= your audience? I would imagine it was people interested in >the Egyptian language--and not so much those interested in poetical elements. well, Marianne, that is in fact my intention: I do believe that the "poetical elements" and the inner sound-structure may help to get a - may I say it? - more nuanced knowledge of Ancient Egyptian Language (not Egyptian grammar), which is quite a different approach from that of the academics. I say "different", not better! It's a way to look at the language through visual and oral images, not through grammatical categories which probably were alien to the Egyptian themselves (and in this I ag= ree with what Dr Jackson says in his reply). Why couldn't we try to look at the sentences as a sort of story-board? >You mentioned vowels--and they really are not that crucial because some can >be shaded to sound much alike--but the consonants are vital. Leaving off or >vocalizing the final /t/ in "pt" makes a big difference. Coptic indicates there was >no "t" sound, so why say it? When doing this, one is obliged to follow some >guidelines. Sorry, Marianne, but final consonants do not affect metre. You may be right for what concerns the aural result, but, as you know, usually I do not follow Coptic pronounciation. For me Coptic is just a tool to reconstruct possible anterior sounds. Now, although it seems ascertained that final /t/'s and /r/'s had fa= llen probably since the first dynastic period (oh, what a fall was that!) I am not sure in what forms that came about and how it affected the aural structure of the sentences. But, as I said, I may try a different approach in future experiments. >Here is where we disagree. In my opinion, this is the wrong kind of >help. Because it suggests that spoken Egyptian was like the written--that >what one saw was exactly what one got. Does a Brit on the BBC pronounce >his final "r's" because they are written? Does a Frenchman vocalize the final >"t" for the same reason? The fact is that written Egyptian is not alphabetic (be it Hieroglyphic or Hieratic) and that triggers psycholinguistic reactions and mental elaborations quite different from those of our written languages. But for the moment I'd rather not enter into perilous roads. >As far as I know, you are the only one reading ancient Egyptian texts >aloud and asking people to have a listen. Hélas! >In my opinion, you have taken on >quite a responsibility. But perhaps we view it differently. That's sure, but no matter what, you know "che ti voglio bene". Regards Orlando ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 14:01:14 -0800 (PST) From: Orlando Mezzabotta Subject: Re: AEL new audio-video version of "The Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor " To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Dear Michel, I know quite well Grandet & Mathieu's chapter on Egyptian metre, since I started my studies of Ancient Egyptian on their excellent grammar, which I keep consulting. And unfortunately, no matter how much I tried, I couldn't get Mathieu's "études de metrique égyptienne" published by the Revue d'Egyptologie. So I feel quite embarassed when I say that I am not totally convinced by their conclusions. It would be too long to explain why, but I'd like to point out "une question de methode". If it's relatively easy to write essays on metre concerning syllabic poetry, the thing is very different with quantitative poetry or, which is even more difficult, with verses based on cola (a "colon" is a section of a metrical period ), that is, on accented sound units -- which seems to be the case with Egyptian literary texts. (On this point I totally agree with Gerhard Fecht.) It's imperative that you read it aloud, in order to get the possible sounds of the cola, which are grouped according to logical blocks and "acting" intentions. That means that you can put together more words and make a single sound-units of them, stressing the one which fits the context better. There are some rules, of course, but not so constraining! According to my experience, as I keep saying, the basic rhythm is build on groups of three cola, and I am working in that direction in order to see whether my hypothesis has some sense. It would be great if specialized scholars could give it a try "viva voce". They do it in Latin! I am aware that Ancient Egyptian is quite another matter, but I think a "sound" attempt would be worth it. I feel so lonely, like the shipwrecked sailor on the island of the Ka, waiting for the benign serpent! Kind regards Orlando ============================================================================== From: "Tilly Burton" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL new audio-video version of "The Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor " Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 09:40:43 -0000 Dear Marianne But surely Coptic is only of limited use when trying to reconstruct the phonology of a state of the language many, many centuries older? For example, modern English is no guide to how Old English was pronounced (some consonants are now still written but no longer pronounced - just take "knight" as an example). The very fact that the "t" remained ossified in spelling so long after it ceased to be pronounced does indicate that it was indeed distinctly pronounced at the time the spelling was "designed". Do we even know when exactly it was actually dropped - even the New Kingdom spans a very long time of language evolution? Presumably this also varied with dialect; and is it not also possible that classical Middle Egyptian might have been pronounced differently from everyday language anyway, even in the New Kingdom? I would have thought that Orlando has therefore some justification in pronouncing it in a literary Middle Egyptian text. Kind regards Tilly Burton ahatnakth@aol.com ============================================================================== From: "Timothy A. Jackson" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL new audio-video version of "The Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor " Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 22:07:40 -0500 Coptic has a far greater relation to the Latin and Greek structure of speech and image than it does to Ancient Egyptian. In a sentence of Sa'idi there is 70 % Greek and the Egyptian forms stand out by themselves almost as short and courtly bows to ageless tradition. Just as Demotic and Late Hieratic are far more dependent on "foreign" logic than the picture language of an indigenous African culture, we must look deeply into a people who would slam their front doors because a Lion or Crocodile was walking down the main street of town looking for unwary children, and who employed Baboons to harvest figs from trees efficiently. Taking a cheetah or leopard along with you on a hunting trip would automatically change your human way of thinking and working. The animal headed "Gods" reflect the world of form and substance that these wonderful people lived in. We are as far removed culturally from them as we are from the possible inhabitants of other planets. That is the main argument for keeping an open mind about it at all times, if we hope to finally understand. Timothy A. Jackson ============================================================================== From: "Marianne Luban" Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 17:20:06 GMT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: Re: AEL new audio-video version of "The Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor " ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Orlando Mezzabotta To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL new audio-video version of "The Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor " Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2012 15:28:49 -0800 (PST) I wrote: >>Here is where we disagree. In my opinion, this is the wrong kind of >>help. Because it suggests that spoken Egyptian was like the written--that >>what one saw was exactly what one got. Does a Brit on the BBC pronounce >>his final "r's" because they are written? Does a Frenchman vocalize the final >>"t" for the same reason? Orlando >The fact is that written Egyptian is not alphabetic >(be it Hieroglyphic or Hieratic) and that triggers >psycholinguistic reactions and mental elaborations >quite different from those of our written languages. >But for the moment I'd rather not enter into >perilous roads. = In my opinion, you embarked on a perilous road the day you decided to make these recording--but that is no bad reflection on you. Terra incognita. As to the "psycholinguistic reactions" and "mental elaborations" I can say nothing but, again, you are comparing written to spoken--and these do not necessarily agree. In some written languages, they do more than others. Italian is written with an alphabet, too, but, unlike with French and English, as long as you know certain rules of pronunciation, what you see is what you get--in good Italian, at least. Same with Spanish. And let us not start discussing what can happen when people pronounce in a sloppy way. Some always do. There is always refined and less so--probably ever since ancient times. Marianne Luban http://thetimetravelerreststop.blogspot.com/ ============================================================================== From: "Jeff & Heather Burzacott" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL new audio-video version of "The Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor " Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 23:48:19 +1030 Dear Orlando, I have been following this back and forth about your vocalisation of 'The Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor'. Keep going! We can debate endlessly about the 't', but from what I can gather, that is not really the point. I am inspired by your passion and enterprise. The world is changed only by those who 'zig' when everyone else 'zags'. Congratulations Orlando. Kind regards, Jeff Burzacott ============================================================================== From: "Timothy A. Jackson" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL new audio-video version of "The Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor " Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 21:52:38 -0500 Signor Mezzabotta is onto a true path to understanding. Just as valid as the Herculean Labors of the Grammatical technicians. He is asking us to suspend disbelief and try to look at the issue "their" way. (The M'ka Kheru Ya oo) I absolutely LOVE the allusion to a "Story Board"! Not to suspend scientific method, but to allow immersion in the very strange, and then to ask the scientist to help explain it. Timothy A. Jackson ============================================================================== From: "Timothy A. Jackson" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL new audio-video version of "The Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor " Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 22:09:19 -0500 I would also point out as a picture, the letter "T" represents a pivot or fulcrum used in levering heavy weights. I hardly believe that it would ever have been relegated to a condition of silence. EVER ============================================================================== From: "Marianne Luban" Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 16:52:37 GMT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: Re: AEL new audio-video version of "The Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor " ---------- Original Message ---------- From: "Tilly Burton" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL new audio-video version of "The Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor " Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2012 09:40:43 -0000 >But surely Coptic is only of limited use when trying to reconstruct the >phonology of a state of the language many, many centuries older? For >example, modern English is no guide to how Old English was pronounced (some >consonants are now still written but no longer pronounced - just take >"knight" as an example). I have seen this analogy used many times, but I don't see why the evolution of the English language should have any bearing on that of another. Coptic is invaluable because it is written with an alphabet that employs vowels. In older Egyptian we get none. When it comes to the consonants, there is a pattern in Coptic when it comes to the "r" and the final "t". But that has already been seen long before in how contemporaries wrote Egyptian names and toponyms using a different graphic system. >The very fact that the "t" remained ossified in spelling so long after it >ceased to be pronounced does indicate that it was indeed distinctly >pronounced at the time the spelling was "designed". Do we even know when >exactly it was actually dropped - even the New Kingdom spans a very long >time of language evolution? The New Kingdom lasted several centuries--but it was eons from that period back to when the Egyptian writing system was first designed. I can't tell you when the final /t/ began to fall out in pronounciation, but a good clue, I believe, is that the Egyptians found it necessary sometimes to write two /t/'s together when they wanted to indicate that there was a "t" sound there. Without it being common knowledge that a single /t/ was silent or merely created a final vowel sound, this would not have been required. > Presumably this also varied with dialect; and >is it not also possible that classical Middle Egyptian might have been >pronounced differently from everyday language anyway, even in the New >Kingdom? I would have thought that Orlando has therefore some >justification in pronouncing it in a literary Middle Egyptian text. Judging from Coptic, it was mainly the vowels that varied in the dialects, and the usage of /S/ as opposed to /x/. In Fayyumic, "l" was sustitued for /r/ but I don't think this affected the final /r/. I'm wondering how you think anybody in, say, the New Kingdom, would know how Middle Egyptian had been pronounced. There were no recordings and, when Middle Egyptian was written, it continued to be written the same for a long time. In fact, Middle Egyptian, as written, doesn't even differ that much from Old Egyptian. If, however, Orlando wanted to read a text aloud from the *Middle Kingdom* with something like a Middle Kingdom pronunciation [and he didn't say he did] he would run afoul of the /A/--which was used to write Semitic "r" in the Middle Kingdom orthography. He knows this, himself, and already explained why he vocalized the final /r/ and /t/--to match the writing. This is where he and I disagree. Marianne Luban http://thetimetravelerreststop.blogspot.com/ ============================================================================== From: "Marianne Luban" Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2012 19:34:41 GMT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: RE: AEL new audio-video version of "The Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor " ---------- Original Message ---------- From: "Timothy A. Jackson" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL new audio-video version of "The Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor " Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2012 22:07:40 -0500 >Coptic has a far greater relation to the Latin and Greek structure of speech >and image than it does to Ancient Egyptian. In a sentence of Sa'idi there is >70 % Greek That is all absolutely untrue. Marianne Luban ============================================================================== From: "Gaspard Van Haver" To: Subject: AEL The crown of the god Ptah-Sokar-Osiris in the tomb of Khaemwaset(QV 44) Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 22:29:33 +0100 Dear members, The god Ptah-Sokar-Osiris wears in the tomb of Khaemwaset(QV 44)a crown. This crown is the two feathers crown/the double feathers crown. What is the correct notation of this crown? -the two feather crown/the double feather crown -the two feathers crown/the double feathers crown -the Two Feather Crown/the Double Feather Crown -the Two Feathers Crown/the Double Feathers Crown Thank you for your very appreciated help! Kind regards G.VAN HAVER Member of the AEL ==============================================================================