From: Michael Tilgner To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AW: Re: AW: Re: AEL Shipwrecked Sailor Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 23:06:03 +0200 Stephen Fryer wrote about my proposal iswt=[t]n "our crew" [t should be omitted]: >> (2) p. 387: n:Z2, n, Late Egyptian too n:n:Z2, t:n:Z2 (after fem. noun) =n >> [suffix, 1 pl.] ... > > Actually, in the early 12th Dynasty, this was a spelling error, which had > become fairl standard practice by Late Egyptian. I forgot to check the date of writing: "... probably Dyn. 11 or early Dyn. 12." ("Lexikon der Aegyptologie", Vol. V, cols. 619-522, entry "Schiffbruechiger" [shipwrecked sailor]) At that time there could be no Late Egyptianisms in the text. Erman transcribed iswt-r=n and commented "of course r is to be deleted" - A. Erman, "Die Geschichte des Schiffbruechigen", in: Zeitschrift fuer Aegyptische Sprache und Altertumskunde, vol. 43, 1-26 (1906). A.M. Blackman, "Middle Egyptian Stories", Brussels 1932, pp. 41-48 and A. de Buck, "Egyptian Readingbook", Leiden 1948, pp. 100-106 both have iswt=[t]n without any comments. All translators translate this part as "our crew". Only John L. Foster, "'The Shipwrecked Sailor': Prose or Verse?", in: Studien zur altaegyptischen Kultur, vol. 15, pp. 69-109 (1988) wrote on p. 89: izwt.tn iy.t ad.t(i) "Your (= our?) crew is returned safely." His literal translation, p. 93: "Be happy, commander! Look, we have reached home! ... Your (?) crew is returned safely, there is no loss to our expedition." Does it makes sense? - This seems to be a minor problem, but if you know that there are more than a dozen - at least! - of rather different interpretations of this text, then you can imagine that the discussion of such a problem - and many, many more - are decisive for its understanding. Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@baan.nl ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 00:52:30 -0400 (EDT) From: "H. Lawson 2" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Hieratic Books Are there any books about, similar to Gardiner's "Egyptian Grammar," that can teach one the Hieratic writing system? Howard Lawson II sfib8@scfn.thpl.lib.fl.us ============================================================================== To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Sun, 05 Jul 1998 23:00:41 -0700 From: "Rohan Fenwick" Cc: Subject: Re: AEL Saying M.E. Hi all. To whoever wanted to know about this pronunciation business, if you have read the recent discussion over the aleph /3/ then you would have noticed that some of us think that /3/ would be pronounced as though you were saying the letter r, a pronunciation perhaps resembling "ar". Rohan Fenwick rfenwick18@hotmail.com ============================================================================== Date: 6 Jul 98 21:47:08 +0100 Subject: Re: AEL The Logic of Egyptian Philology From: "Gavin" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Marianne Luban wrote: >Egyptian is not a Semitic language. >7. The syllabic signs usually have phonetic compliments which, even though logic dictates some are pronounced like vowels, they must remain consonants because they must follow the rules of a certain type of Semitic writing syste which has no biliteral or triliteral signs. >correct me if I get something wrong Yes, sure. You have got confused between two things - logical and grammatical categories. For example in French, one says "La Police", but this does not mean that the police are women. Language does not follow the rules of logic: one says "Mon Amour", because "Ma Amour" is more difficult to pronounce. Similar considerations were doubtless true for the Ancient Egyptians! You see, the two genders "le" and "la" are really just grammatical classes - they might as well be the "red" and "blue" genders. Mistakes with language often arise out of a confusion of grammatical and logical usages. You hear people talk about the lady as the "chairperson of the board", because they think that the "chairman" would have to be a man. Languages have a tendency to start out like Latin by being synthetic, and end up by becoming analytic like Italian. This is because there is a natural dislike of declensions and a tendency to abbreviate in all languages. One talks about "AEL" more for reasons of brevity than logic! In a synthetic language, the words can be in any order, so either prefixes or suffixes must be used to indicate which word goes with which. As a language becomes more analytic, the more rigid the word order must become. Ancient Egyptian is not an inflected language like Latin or Greek. There are no case endings. Whether a noun is the subject or object of the verb is indicated by its position in the sentence. However, distinctions of tense and mood are rarely made in writing, so the whole subject is rather problematic.... I have heard Coptic spoken, and to me it sounds similar to Arabic and other "Semitic" languages. Coptic is not as far removed from Ancient Egyptian as you might be think. I suggest you get a cassette tape of Coptic and follow in the steps of Champollion whose excellent knowledge of Copic enabled him to decipher the Rosetta Stone. Anyone interested in cassette language tapes might like to go to: http://agoralang.com/audioforum.html (they are not paying me for this plug) There wasn't a Coptic tape in the last catalog (1997) I have. But you could always email them and ask if they could get one for you: 74537.550@Compuserve.Com Gav. ============================================================================== From: "Mark Vygus" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Weni Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 14:55:14 +0100 Is anyone else going to try and translate a line or two ? Don't be frightened Mark V nsw-bit@msn.com ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 10:53:14 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Hieratic Books H. Lawson 2 wrote: > Are there any books about, similar to Gardiner's "Egyptian Grammar," that > can teach one the Hieratic writing system? Well, Howard, the short answer is "No," at least as far as I have ever been able to determine. The long answer is that hieratic is generally learned from (a) struggling with hieratic texts under tutelage of an Egyptologist, and/or (b) working with photocopies of a couple of out-of-print works by Georg Moeller: _Hieratische Palaeographie_, 3 vols., 1909-1912 _Hieratische Lesestucke_, 3 vols., 1909-1910 Neither of these works is exactly easy to come by, unless you have access to a major Egyptological library (and you'd better be good at reading German in tiny handwriting!). I managed (thanks to friends on the internet!) to get a photocopy of the first volume of Palaeographie, which deals with the period from the beginning to the end of the SIP, and of a couple of hieratic texts from the early Middle Kingdom. Since there seemed to be a major lack of available information I have put up some information (and am still - VERY SLOWLY - working on more) on the Web ("Folls rush in..." etc.): http://home.prcn.org/~sfryer/Hieratic/index.html And I'm afraid taht pretty much sums up the situation, as far as I have found. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 06 Jul 1998 16:53:38 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL saying M.E. fsmith@netsource.co.nz wrote: > As a complete beginner however, I find these vowelless words a problem. > I want to be able to say to myself the words and sentences of M.E. - > this will be more interesting and easier to learn. Egyptian Pronunciation: Part 1: Introduction: The basics of Egyptian pronunciation Part 2: Some ideas on the pronunciation of Egyptian verbs -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 14:12:47 +1100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Hieratic Books Dear Howard, the short answer is no. Hieratic is kind of a 'super speciality' that is not taught. Stephen Fryer's pages are the best source. Have you looked at that yet? Links from the AEL site. Best wishes, Mike D-S >Are there any books about, similar to Gardiner's "Egyptian Grammar," that >can teach one the Hieratic writing system? > >Howard Lawson II >sfib8@scfn.thpl.lib.fl.us ============================================================================== From: Michael Tilgner To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: AW: Re: AEL Hieratic Books Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:21:37 +0200 Stephen Fryer wrote: > working with > photocopies of a couple of out-of-print works by Georg Moeller: > _Hieratische Palaeographie_, 3 vols., 1909-1912 > _Hieratische Lesestucke_, 3 vols., 1909-1910 > Neither of these works is exactly easy to come by, unless you have access to a > major Egyptological library (and you'd better be good at reading German in > tiny handwriting!). The "Hieratische Palaeographie" is available: G. Moeller, "Hieratische Palaeographie. Die aegyptische Buchschrift in ihrer Entwicklung von der 5. Dynastie bis zur roemischen Kaiserzeit. 3 Baende und Ergaenzungsheft zu Band 1 und 2 von H. Grapow, in 1 Band. 2., verbesserte Aufl., Leipzig 1927-1936." Reprint: 1965 It is available from Otto Harrassowitz P. O. Box 2929 D-65019 Wiesbaden GERMANY Tel. ++49 611 530 152 Fax ++ 49 611 530 177 E-Mail hrackow@harrassowitz.de Order no.: 3-535-00225-7 Price: DM 360 There seems to be another book on Hieratic (I don't know it yet): H. Goedicke, "Old hieratic palaeography", Baltimore 1988 The egyptological bookshop Cybele offers the antiquarian copies (may be they haven't been sold yet): G. Moeller, "Hieratische Lesestuecke fuer den akademischen Gebrauch", 2. Heft (FF 400) G. Moeller, "Hieratische Palaeographie. Die aegyptische Buchschrift in ihrer Entwicklung von der fuenften Dynastie", 2. Band (FF 300) Cybele 65 bis, rue Galande F-75005 Paris FRANCE Tel. ++33 1 43 54 16 26 Fax ++33 1 46 33 96 84 E-Mail cybele@worldnet.fr For a short history of Hieratic see "Lexikon der Aegyptologie", Vol. II, cols. 1187-1189, entry "Hieratisch" with literature up to 1977. Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@baan.nl ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 07:27:29 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL saying M.E. Stephen Fryer wrote: > Egyptian Pronunciation: > Part 1: Introduction: The basics of Egyptian pronunciation > Part 2: Some ideas on the pronunciation of Egyptian verbs Oops! The URLs got lost out of that. They are: http://home.prcn.org/~sfryer/pronunciation1.html http://home.prcn.org/~sfryer/pronunciation2.html -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: Michael Tilgner To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: AW: AW: Re: AEL Hieratic Books Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 00:00:41 +0200 I wrote: > There seems to be another book on Hieratic (I don't know it yet): > > H. Goedicke, "Old hieratic palaeography", Baltimore 1988 Goedicke writes: "Since Moeller's first edition of his Hieratische Palaeographie, the available amount of known hieratic writing has increased dramatically. This concerns the period from the beginning of ancient Egyptian history into the Middle Kingdom and also the New Kingdom, in particular the Ramesside Period. For the time between these two periods there is a substantial amount of known but still unpublished material, specifically the group known as 'Kahun papyri'. Until their publication is accomplished any effort to update Moeller's Palaeographie for this period would be premature. The volume offered here is influenced by this situation." The book covers the period from the beginning (1st dyn.) to early 12th dyn. The material is grouped according to Gardiner's sign list. The form of the plates is that introduced by Moeller. Available for $84 from http://www.amazon.com Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@baan.nl ============================================================================== From: Michael Tilgner To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: WG: AEL AW: AEL word for pleasure ? Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 23:06:00 +0200 I wrote on June 22, 1998: > Francesca wrote on May 19, 1998: > >> I have been reading an article (available on-line) written by Umberto Eco >> which says : >> >> << Sometimes the hieroglyphic sign is a number : pleasure, for example, is >> denoted by the number 16, because (allegedly) sexual activity begins at the >> age of sixteen. Since it takes two to have an intercourse, however, this is >> denoted by two sixteen's. >> >> >> Can anyone confirm that this is really how the word "pleasure" is written? > > Dear Francesca, > > your question has not been answered yet, I believe. Today I got Horapollo's > "Hieroglyphica" and unexpectedly found the source of Eco's statement. > > Book I, No. 32 "Quomodo voluptatem?" [desire, lust] "To indicate desire, > they paint the number 16. From this age on men begin to be interested in > relations with women and be taken with the fathering of offsprings." > > No. 33 "Quomodo concubitum?" [sexual intercourse] "They paint this same > number 16 twice, if they want to indicate the intercourse between man and > woman. Since, as said before, children come into being by desire, and the > sexual intercourse by double desire; therefore they correctly add another > 16." (retranslated from German) > > It is said that Horapollo had some knowledge of original hieroglyphic signs, > mostly ideograms, and their meanings (LAe, II, col. 1275, entry > "Horapollo"), but, however, this case seems very strange. In the meantime I found some suggestions in the literature: (1) W. Spiegelberg, "Varia": "4. Die Zahl 16 =3D [Greek text] (I, 32)", in: Zeitschrift fuer Aegyptische Sprache und Altertumskunde [ZAeS], vol. 53, pp. 93-94 (1917). He found a title of Hathor in texts of the Late Period: Hnw-t XVI "mistress of sixteen", for example Pap. Bremner 20, 13 H-W24:t-H-W24:t*H8-B1 V20-Z2-Z2 and 4 more examples. The original meaning of this title is not clear. But in later times (Horapollo!) 16 seemed to be a writing for "pleasure, desire". May be 16 was the name of a festival celebrated on the 16th of a month? It may be a transition from "festival" to a more general term "desire", first as epitheton of Hathor, later independent of her. So the epitheton was "mistress of desire", who was identified as Aphrodite by the Greeks. (2) H. Schaefer, "Noch einmal die Zahl 16 =3D [Greek text] (Horapollo I,32) ...", in: ZAeS, vol. 55, pp. 93-94 (1918). Schaefer did not accept Spiegelberg's solution and proposed a homophony between Coptic _mntase_ "sixteen" and a word for "desire", composed by _mnt_, _met_, a prefix for abstract designations and an unknown stem, which might be _aso_ or _so_. See, for example, sah. mntatso, boh. metatatso "unrestrainedness". Any comment of our coptologists? (3) van de Walle/Vergote, "Traduction des Hieroglyphica d'Horapollon", in: Chronique d'=C9gypte, vol. 18, no. 35, 39-89 (Book I), no. 36, 199-239 (1943), here pp. 66-67 The number 16 could refer to the Nil height in prosperous years. Plinius, Nat. Hist., V, 58 and XXXVI, 58 gave a description of statues of the Nile-god with 16 children. Now it's your choice! Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@baan.nl ============================================================================== From: "Peter Abdon" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 07:06:50 PDT I am a beginner of AEL and wonder if there is a good grammar and a good dictionary? I have heard about Gardiner. What does his book contain? Is ther also a book with the transcription of the two and-three letter signs? Peter Abdon Lund, Sweden ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 8 Jul 1998 20:00:07 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL Books Dear Peter, Welcome aboard! Have you taken a look at the AEL homepage? There is a an introduction to hieroglyphs which includes a short bibliography at the end. The URL is http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/hierointro.html A new book by Mark Collier and Bill Manley is also worth considering: _How to Read Egyptian Hieroglyphs: A step-by-step approach to teach yourself_, Mark Collier and Bill Manley, British Museum Press, 0 7141 1910 5 Regarding Gardiner, Mike Dyall-Smith has put together some pages relating to the first few exercises of Gardiner. These are linked from the AEL homepage, or you can go directly to: http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/texts/ael/gardiner/index.htm Best wishes, -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/index.html ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 22:30:33 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AW: Re: AEL Hieratic Books Michael Tilgner wrote: > > Neither of these works is exactly easy to come by, unless you have access > to a > > major Egyptological library (and you'd better be good at reading German in > > tiny handwriting!). > > The "Hieratische Palaeographie" is available: > It is available from > Otto Harrassowitz > P. O. Box 2929 > D-65019 Wiesbaden > GERMANY > Order no.: 3-535-00225-7 > Price: DM 360 > G. Moeller, "Hieratische Lesestuecke fuer den akademischen Gebrauch", 2. > Heft (FF 400) > G. Moeller, "Hieratische Palaeographie. Die aegyptische Buchschrift in ihrer > Entwicklung von der fuenften Dynastie", 2. Band (FF 300) > > Cybele > 65 bis, rue Galande > F-75005 Paris > FRANCE Unfortunately, both the prices and location of the sources still leave them in the "not exactly easy to come by" category for me. Ordering books from the States is awkward enough. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 21:48:59 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL News For those who might be interested. I have posted a transliteration of the entire Story of the Shipwrecked Sailor. I make no guarantee that this is 100% accurate or reliable, but it should be at least usable. http://home.prcn.org/~sfryer/Hieratic/papyrus/index.html I have also *FINALLY* got Lesson 4 of Basic Lessons in Hieratic posted. Sorry -no exercises yet (at least I've made SOME progress this week!). I hope to have those done too very shortly. http://home.prcn.org/~sfryer/Hieratic/index.html -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 02:08:29 EDT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Hieratic Books In a message dated 7/7/98 3:51:05 AM Central Daylight Time, m.dyall- smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au (Mike D-S) writes: > Dear Howard, the short answer is no. Hieratic is kind of a 'super > speciality' that is not taught. Stephen Fryer's pages are the best source. > Have you looked at that yet? Links from the AEL site. > Best wishes, Mike D-S Hello Mike: If it's "not taught," then why am I slated to begin coursework in it this coming winter? I think what you mean is that it's not something which is taught with enough frequency to warrant a formal published grammar? And a question to those who *have* tackled this monster, if I might since I have the floor -- how bad is it? How many sleepless nights do I have to look forward to? ;) (Tamara)=| nebethet@aol.com ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 08:32:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Geoffrey Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Hieratic Books Dear Tam, You wrote: > And a question to those who *have* tackled this monster, if I might since > I have the floor -- how bad is it? How many sleepless nights do I have to > look forward to? ;) You will be just fine, so long as you already are good with Egyptian. Hieratic signs correspond one-for-one with hieroglyphic ones. I recommend that you use a hieratic text which already has a hieroglyphic transcription, and you can teach yourself to read it almost more than anyone can teach you to do so. It takes a tiny bit of getting used to, but by the time you have worked a day or two on one text, you will already have a decent grasp of that handwriting, and will only struggle over a few less common signs. I don't know whether you have any Late Egyptian background, but many people have had the best results learing hieratic from Papyrus d'Orbiney, "the Tale of Two Brothers". This is entirely in Late Egyptian, but its hieratic is extremely clear and straightforward. Middle Kingdom hieratic is somewhat more difficult to read than New Kingdom hieratic. It has more ligatures between signs, and it is often written in a scraawly sort of way. Late Egyptian hieratic tends to be more tight and has more discreet signs. While learning hieratic, mostly on my own, since, as you have mentioned, it is rarely tought in a structured environment, I made flash cards of all the signs and ligatures I encountered, until I got so used to it that I no longer needed them. The biggest problem with hieratic is that every scribe had his/her own handwriting, and you need to constantly re-adjust your eye to perceive how each text is written, making a mental paleography. It does not hurt to also make yourself a paleography of the text on paper. Probaby the most useful thing which will force you to learn hieratic well, and almost no instructors ever require or even suggest it, is to get yourself a wide-nibbed calligraphy pen and copy every line of the hieratic texts you are reading, learning how the scribe's strokes were made. Once you know how to make the signs yourself, you will have a much keener eye for picking out what any scribe was doing when they wrote the signs on the page before you. You might also sit with that pen and, as a kind of drill, write the signs you have just learned several times over in a row, so you get the feel for how they are made and what kinds of corruptions are likely to occur in them when you try making them quickly. I used to, in the very beginning, put a line of hieratic calligraphy at the top of my page, then do a line of the same text transcribed into hierogyphs underneath it (of course it must face the same way as the hieratic, and therefore go from right to left). Under this I did a transliteration. When you are working backwards (right to left), you can transliterate each separable word or phrase in the correct order for English (left to right), separating each word/phrase with a small vertical line or slash. Then underneath this, I would translate the text. So I ended up with pages of interspersed hieratic, hieroglyphic, transliteration, and English translation. You will find that having your notes this way will be very convenient when you attempt to review anything. On the other hand, one should not read from such a page in class or alone if one is trying to drill oneself and learn. In class, you should have only the pure hiertic text in front of you, having already analyzed and understood it at home. You should attempt to work only from the original, but use your notes in the event that you just cannot figure something out. As silly as it sounds, some students actually practice for classes, going over the hieratic several times coaching themselves in how to read it. This is actually very good exercise and drilling, and should not be regarded as some kind of "cheating". Moreover, it is fool-hardy NOT to use a pony (a book with "the answers" in it) when you are learning hieratic. You will not really gain that much by struggling through it unassisted. You should try to read the hieratic on your own, and then prompt yourself with the available transcriptions however often you need to in order to learn. Your goal is, of course, to stop needing the transcription, so you should keep trying to see how far you can get without peaking. Basically, this is the method for learning hieratic. It has worked for me, and I think it is pretty much what has worked for other students as well. I actually really like hieratic. It is hard not to become excited and enthusiastic about it once you are really working with it and finding that you can actually read it. I bet you will feel the same way in no time at all. Good luck to you on your course. Yours, Geoff Graham M.Phil., Yale Egyptology sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 07:03:50 +0000 From: Kasia Szpakowska To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Hieratic Books Hi! to my mind, reading hieratic is just reading handwriting. Some of it is AWFUL (like my handwriting, which often looks like hieratic), and others are quite yummy to read. Just take it slow, & get a good night's rest :-) --Kasia NebetHet@aol.com wrote: > > > And a question to those who *have* tackled this monster, if I might since > I have the floor -- how bad is it? How many sleepless nights do I have to > look forward to? ;) > > (Tamara)=| > nebethet@aol.com ============================================================================== From: Michael Tilgner To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: AEL Modern pronounciation of Ancient Egyptian Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 16:39:16 +0200 Dear listmembers, recently there had been some discussions on the pronounciation of Ancient Egyptian and it was explained that nowadays egyptologists used an artificial pronounciation by convention. I would like to add some observations: A (= 3) Aleph and a Ajin are pronounced identically as "a" (like in French) i, y (= i-i), w are pronounced like "i" or "u" resp. or as "y" or "w" resp. at the beginning of a word or suspected syllable e is inserted between consonants There are some differences in different countries: iw is, are: Gardiner, Exercise I [= Ex. I] proposed "yew", in Germany [= G] "i-oo" [i = ee like bee; oo = ou like you] im there, therein ...: Ex. I - "yem", G - "im" iaH Moon: Ex. II - "yaeH", G - "yaH" without e wia ship, bark: Ex. II - "weya", G - "oo-i-a" niwt town, city: Ex. II - "neywet", G - "ni-oot" rSwt joy, gladness: Ex. II - "reshwet", G - "reshoot" Wni by English speakers: Weni "veni"? or "weni"? In Germany: "oo-ni" (entry "Uni" in "Lexikon der Aegyptologie") wnn to be "venen"? "wenen"? In Germany: "oo-nen" Let's talk about full consonants: It's my experience from Western speakers that they do not make any difference between q and k and pronounce identically "k". And what about h, H, x, X? German speakers do not differentiate between h and H, pronouncing "h". x and X are known phonems and are pronounced accordingly. And English or French speakers? What do they pronounce? And r? I know of at least three different "r": The English/American "r" (backward in the mouth), French "r" (at the tip of the tongue) and German r (in between). mri to love sounds like "meri" (German "r") if spoken by German speakers. Do American speakers say: "merrry" (like "Mary" = American "r")? Gardiner, p. 26: "Individual teachers have their own methods of pronounciation, but the method just described is probably as good as any, and is recommended here." What I want to say is: Though the egyptologists are now using this recommended method, the artificial pronounciation of Ancient Egyptian is also influenced by the native language of its modern speakers. And - my observation! - they do not try very hard to pronounce the consonants correctly. But, may be, my sample is too small? Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@baan.nl ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 17:50:40 -0700 From: Patrick De Smet - Rodrigues To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Something useful! Dear List members, Recently I stumbled across this very useful website: . I couldn't believe my eyes: all kinds of on-line dictionaries, ready to use, most of them totally free. Definitely something to bookmark, make publicity for and use, use, use. Even AE is featured! (No, not the Woerterbuch I'm afraid...) Take your time to browse around and do have a look at the multilingual and specialized dictionaries and thesaurus lists. If you ever find yourself struggling again with some German, Spanish, Portuguese, French, Dutch,... words or phrases, and you don't have access to paper dictionaries, try the "EURODICAUTOM" on-line dictionary (to be found amongst the multilingual ones). Of course, don't expect miracles: "canopic jars" and "Ennead" were unknown to this dictionary, but for the rest: super! Cheers, Patrick De Smet - Rodrigues udjat@skynet.be Udjat, Eye in the Sky ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 19:28:32 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Something useful! Patrick De Smet - Rodrigues wrote: > Even AE is featured! (No, not the Woerterbuch I'm afraid...) This is the Beinlich wordlist at the Cambridge Egyptology resources page. Egyptian -> German. Unless they have improved their search engine, it works better to download the list and stick it into an MS Works, or Excel, database on your own computer. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: "Chad Bochan" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 19:27:08 +1000 Subject: Re: AEL Something useful! Stephen Fryer wrote: > This is the Beinlich wordlist at the Cambridge Egyptology resources page. > Egyptian -> German. Unless they have improved their search engine, it works > better to download the list and stick it into an MS Works, or Excel, database > on your own computer. > Is the Beinlich list the only wordlist available? Unfortunately I don't speak German and so such a list has limited use for me. I was wondering however: I have seen, on the Altavista search engine for example, that there are free online document translators, which can translate inter alia German documents to English. Does anyone know if it is possible to painlessly run the Beinlich wordlist through a multilingual translator to get an English Beinlich wordlist that can be put on the AEL website? Maybe it would also be possible, given that there are Egyptian hieroglyphic fonts floating all over the web, to include in such a list the hieroglyphic representations of English words as well? I would have no idea how to do these things. Does anyone else know if this is possible? Chad. 8^) ============================================================================== From: "Mark Vygus" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Weni L23-25 Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 15:56:53 +0100 Some more to be getting on with L22/23 ii n mSa pn m Htp this army returned in safety L23 xbA n =f tA Hri Sa it had ravaged the land of the Sand-Dwellers L24 ii n mSa pn m Htp this army returned in safety pds n =f tA Hryw Sa it had flattened the land of the Sand-Dwellers ii n mSa pn m Htp this army returned in safety sSn n =f wnwt =f it had overthrown its strongholds ii n mSa pn m Htp this army returned in safety L24/25 Sa n =f dAbw =f iArrwt =f it had cut down its figs and vines ii n mSa pn m Htp this army returned in safety st n =f xt m //////// =f nb it had thrust fire in all its //////// L25/26 ii n mSa pn m Htp this army returned in safety L26 smA n =f TAswt im =f m Dbaw aSAw it had killed its troops by many tens of thousands ii n mSa pn m Htp this army returned in safety Mark V nsw-bit@msn.com ============================================================================== From: "Mark Vygus" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Weni 23-26 Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 16:52:35 +0100 Sorry, my first post was a rough draft without punctuation L22/23 ii .n mSa pn m Htp This army returned in safety L23 xbA.n =f tA Hr.i.w-Sa it had ravaged the land of the Sand-Dwellers L24 ii.n mSa pn m Htp This army returned in safety pds.n =f tA Hr.i.w-Sa It had flattened the land of the Sand-Dwellers ii.n mSa pn m Htp This army returned in safety sSn.n =f wn.w.t =f it had overthrown its strongholds ii.n mSa pn m Htp This army returned in safety L24/25 Sai.n =f dAb.w =f iArr.w.t =f it had cut down its figs and its vines ii.n mSa pn m Htp This army returned in safety sti.n =f xt m ////// =f nb.w it had thrust fire in all its ///////// L25/26 ii.n mSa pn m Htp This army returned in safety L26 smA.n =f TAs.w.t im =f m Dba.w aSA.w It had killed its troops by many tens of thousands ii.n mSa pn m Htp This army returned in safety Mark V nsw-bit@msn.com ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 12 Jul 98 21:17:18 UT From: "Michael Mac Donagh" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk, "Chad Bochan" Subject: RE: AEL Something useful! Dear Chad, It is certainly possible to run selections form the Beinlich List through a computer translation package. I have done so quite successfully using Globalink's Power Translator (which I got free from a magazine disc) so I know it works. It would, in theory, be possible to run the entire list through such a package. However, you would have to check the output quite carefully since the translator you use may not be able to cope with academic / Egyptological German. I have encountered some quite amusing mis-translations of quite innocent terms. I do not know how the on-line translators would cope - there is one way to find out! It would also be possible to use hieroglyphic fonts. However. the task would be the equivalent of putting the Worterbuch (plus its updates) on the net which would take a lot of time to do properly. I believe that work is underway on a project to update the Worterbuch and publish it in digital format but I do not know how far the task has progressed. There is another problem and that is which of the various hieroglyphic fonts should one use for typeset images? However scanned images are a possibility. Regards, Mike_Mac_Donagh@msn.com ==============================================================================