To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: Re: AEL The problem of Ptahhotep 20-21 solved From: Vyvyan Pinches Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 22:28:58 -0400 (EDT) Timofey, Thank you for a great piece of detective work. This reminds me that I should spend some time going thoroughly through Gardiner. Thank you for the compliment, which was not deserved but certainly appreciated. Although Gardiner refers to this as being a Late Egyptian phenomenon, it must have begun much earlier, since the ME version of Ptah Hotep supposedly dates from the 12th dynasty. I cannot promise any more discoveries - this was just a lucky guess. In the meantime, if you have the time + the inclination, I would love to have any comments you could make on the two queries I had mentioned in my last posting: >70) dd=k xpr iqr=k r=f m gr it is by silence that you make manifest (lit. "that you cause to come into being") your superiority over him. >If we agree with this punctuation, this is the classic way to translate an emphatic sentence, preposing the rheme - m gr - and subordinating the theme - dd=k xpr iqr=k r=f. Which brings up the whole question of: 1) what the basis of Zaba's division of the text is and: 2) even if it is not entirely subjective, whether this should significantly affect our translation. This is something I have already adverted to twice, in a spirit of simple curiosity, but so far no one has stepped up to the plate. Let me state it more plainly: If Zaba's line division is based solely on how he understands the text, then by allowing that division to guide our interpretation, we are simply blindly following in his footsteps. If, on the other hand, his division reflects the actual layout of the hieratic text, we then have to ask ourselves how significant that layout is when attempting to translate the text. >My own experience of hieratic is limited to the "Shipwrecked Sailor" and that only superficially, but my impression is that the economy of the lines is dictated solely by the exigencies of space, and has nothing to do with the meaning of the text itself. I notice that Jenny and Timofey were anxious to determine Zaba's intentions without in any way questioning the underlying assumption that the layout of a text has something to do with its meaning. Admittedly the style of a "wisdom" text necessarily differs from that of apure narrative, although not everyone would agree that the "Shipwrecked Sailor" has no elements of prosody. There is a metrical "feel" in Ptahhotep, which may indeed translate into a need to divide the text into symmetrical "bytes.", but has this been done by the scribe or the transcriber? >In more practical terms, what we have here is a clear second tense (and I hope we all understand what I mean by this - loath as I am to use a term from Coptic grammar to refer to ME, it is much briefer than saying "non-attributive relative", a real mouthful) namely dd=k - which both Timofey and Jenny translate as though it were a subjunctive, without explaining why - which can be translated in a limited number of ways. If it is being used in an emphatic sense, as a theme, then it must be accompanied by a corresponding rheme, into which a negative imperative would not fit. The only other use of a second tense which would seem to make any sense here is that described in Allen 25.11.1 in the protasis of a conditional sentence. So, disregarding the line division, the translation could run "Should you make manifest your superiority over him, do not be silent when he utters evil (which I believe really means "When he talks nonsense"). Comments, please, on both points." And: >81) qsn pw HDDw Hwrw-jb >troubled (lit."a troubled man") is the injured man who is poor of understanding. >I have the distinct impression I must have missed something here. Both Jenny and Timofey correctly identify HDDw as an imperfective ptcple, Timofey with the added explanation that the -w ending somehow converts it into a nominal form (I may have misunderstood this). Neither refer to the obvious fact that, based on the form of the verb, it is a passive participle - the active would be HDDj or HDDy. (Admittedly Allen does make the point that in texts written after the Middle kingdom occasionally an w would be added, but usually written Z7 rather than G43) Strangely, all other translations (that I have seen) take the same line. I concede that HDDw could be a noun of agent, but I have found no evidence to indicate this. Is this a case of follow-my-leader? Admittedly, it makes good sense to say that he who kicks a man when he is down is a rotter, but equally true is that to be kicked when one is already down is a wretched experience. I would really welcome some constructive thinking on this. These may be elementary points, but I would welcome any elucidation you could provide. Best wishes, Vyv. ============================================================================== From: Shmakov Timofey To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Translations suggested on OsirisNet Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2010 20:24:32 +0400 Dear AEL members, Some of us are acquainted with the site www.osirisnet.net, a useful one that provides good photos of the tombs, mastaba etc. But the readings/translations it suggests, to put it mildly, are "arguable". Of course, specialist would not use this site, but lots of amateurs and people interested in Egyptian culture use it and so have "arguable" idea of what is represented and inscribed in the tombs of Egypt of all periods. I just want to give the tomb of Horemheb (http://www.osirisnet.net/tombes/pharaons/horemheb/e_horemheb_part1.htm) as an example of such "arguable" readings and treatments suggested: Well Chamber, Right (east) wall: >Isis grants Horemheb "the throne of Osiris in order to be in peace". It is actually /Htp.k/ in the original, "that you may be content", not "in order to be in peace", Antechamber - I, Left (west) wall: >jackal, who offers him protection. Anubis holds a Was-sceptre It is actually a /wAs/-staff, not scepter. >she in return offers him the "regalness of Wennefer (Osiris)". the term /swyt/ rather has the meaning "king's dignity", "king's rank", not "kingship" or "regalness". >customary 4 times for the granting of "rising like Ra, in the sky". It is actually /dj.n(.j) n.k xaa ra m pt/ "I have made for you the Sun to appear/shine forth in the sky" /xaa/ is not a noun ("rising"), but the verbal (non-attr. relative form) object of the verb dj "give, cause, make". >4) Next, Horemheb offers wine to Hathor as Goddess of the West, wearing the black wig, >underworld. In return Hathor grants him "the throne of Osiris, eternally". It is actually: /Dt zp 2/, i. e. "/Dt/ twice" which is /Dt Dt/ where the first /Dt/ is a noun "person" (often loosely "body"), the second /Dt/ is a noun "/Dt/-time" (often loosely "eternity"), this is the descendant of more early expression with the same meaning /n Dt Dt/ (Wb.V:506:3) the expression /Dt zp 2/ means literally "of /Dt/-time's person", i. e. "during /Dt/-time/in the course of Dt-time". The term /Dt/ is actually does not have a meaning "eternity" as it was supposed to have a limit, cf. Sin. B 212: /dj.sn n.k nHH nn Drw.f Dt nn Hntj.s/ "May they give you /nHH/-time without its limit (and) /Dt/-time without its period", besides /Dt/-time had "length" (/Awt/, in /m Awt Dt/ "in the length of /Dt/-time") and "person" (/Dt/, in the common expression /n Dt Dt/ "of the person of /Dt/-time", i. e. during /Dt/-time) - something that badly combines with "eternity" (which could not have such measurable part as "length"). /Dt/-time was supposed to be eternal if the king would cultivate natural order "maat" (/jr mAat/ "do maat") and suppress "chaos" (/jzft/). The term /Dt/ was original linear time notion of Egyptians since this term occurred in the Old Kingdom long before occurrence and using of the term /nHH/. Some Egyptologist suppose that term /nHH/ has a meaning something like "end of days", "beginning of new era" as it is usually occurs in expression /Dt r nHH/ "during /Dt/-time up to /nHH/-time". >Rear (north) wall - left: >The king, in the same kilt as before Osiris, sacrificially stands in front of Ptah, his green->painted body is wrapped into the usual close-fitting garment This is not close-fitting garment, this is actually mummy-wrappings, and Ptah is represented as a mummy, note, that he also has two crossed red lines on his body - a feature of any mummy (for example mummy of Tutankhamon-Osiris in the tomb of Tutankhamon). Moreover, note that his hands are not free (as they are wrapped too) and hardly appear from behind the mummy-wrappings. Right (east) wall: >4) Horemheb now passes into the presence of Hathor, wearing her horns and solar disk on top >of the blue and black striped wig. Again the 4-fold worship, and a promise of "an eternity of >Joy". This is not a promise of "an eternity of Joy", the text at the king's feet refers to Hathor, not to the king, it reads: /dwA nTr zp 4 jr.n.s (n)HH m Awt-jb Hr awj nb tAwj/ "Worshipping of the god, four times: she (i. e. Hathor) has spent (lit. made) /nHH/-time on the arms of lord of the Two Lands" Hathor's gift (not "promise") is at Hathor's feet: /dj.n(.j) n.k xaa ra m pt/ "I have made for you the Sun to appear/shine forth in the sky" >2) Horemheb, wearing the kilt with a centre piece but of an ochre colour, meets with Isis, who >has her normal name hieroglyph on top of her black wig. Her dress is plain, white and >sleeveless. He worships her the customary 4 times, so that she will "treat him like Ra" It is actually /(dwA nTr zp 4) jr rn.{s}. mj ra/ "(Worshipping of the god, four times), so that his (mistakenly "her") name may achieve (lit. make) <...> like (that of) the Sun" It is usually /dj anx/ or /anx(.w) Dt/ instead of <...> in the texts (though without /rn/ name, only /jr.f/ "that he may achieve"), i. e. "Worshipping...that he (i. e. king) may achieve (lit. make) ", but it has been missed or omitted on the wall, probably for the lack of space. But in the tomb of Ramses I similar passage reads (at the throne of Atum-Sun-Khepri): /rdjt mDt stA mrt 4 jr rn.f Dt/ "Giving ointment, pulling four /mrt/-boxes, so that his (i. e. king's) name may achieve (lit. make) /Dt/-time". >Horemheb offers Osiris wine in order to be granted the "gift of life, each day, like Ra". >"gift of life, each day, like Ra" It is something fantastic! The text is actually /rdjt jrp n nb (n)HH jr.f mj ra ra nb/ "Giving wine to the lord of /nHH/-time, that he (i. e. king) may achieve (lit. make) <...> like the Sun, every day". -- Timofey Shmakov, Russian Federation Omsk State Agrarian University ==============================================================================