From: Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 21:48:20 EDT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Computer Programs Are there any good computer programs for learning AEL? Michael Akard Modesto, CA ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:38:42 +1000 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Shipwrecked Sailor line 1-3 Ayko wrote: > Does the first point mean this particle is derived > from preposition (i)n "by"? So "And (then) said by X..... > and (then) said by Y.....etc."? S.Fryer replied > I think it is probably more related to the "ergative" particle in, which > Loprieno discusses in _Ancient Egyptian_. Interesting, but I am a little frustrated. On this topic, Loprieno quotes an article in Lingua Aegyptia vol 2 by Ziedler, which he says is very good. But, Ziedler's article is in german. I can see all sorts of nice tables (on verb forms and possible case endings in protoegyptian) in the article which look fascinating, but the actual text is impenetrable. I know we have a lot of german expertise on the list. I realise this is a big ask, but if I distributed the text to people a paragraph at a time, would there be any willing translators? There is a section of only a couple of pages that would be nice to do first. Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith ******************************** Mike Dyall-Smith, Melbourne, Australia m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au ******************************** ============================================================================== From: Michael Tilgner To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: Re: AEL How the ancient Egyptians greet a newborn child Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:27:49 +0200 Marc van Kollenburg wrote: >> Hermann Grapow discussed how the ancient Egyptians greeted their newborn > [snip] > > Can you give me more information about this publication? Dear Marc, Hermann Grapow studied some conversational features in ancient Egyptian in a series of articles " Wie die alten Aegypter sich anredeten, wie sie sich gruessten, und wie sie miteinander sprachen" [How the ancient Egyptians addressed each other, how they greeted each other, and how they talk with each other], Abhandlungen der Preussischen Akademie der Wissenschaften [APAW], Phil.-hist. Klasse, 1939, Nr. 11, 1940, Nr. 12, 1941, Nr. 11, 1942, Nr. 7, topics, which are now summarized as "Anreden" [terms of address] - see "Lexikon der Aegyptologie", Vol. I, 1975, cols. 292-293. The articles of Grapow's publication deal with: Part I: On the form and syntax of the terms of address, invocations, exclamations, wishes, and greetings Part II: Usage of terms of address Part III: Usage of invocations, exclamations, wishes, and greetings Part IV: Questions and answers; structure of conversations and their reproduction in texts; of speaking/talking with each other and about others; of ways of speaking and of the language of spoken utterances [seems to be an early study of - in Saussurian terms - the "parole" (actual speech forms) of AEL] The journal APAW is only available at university libraries. It seems to me that this topic has not been discussed any further in such detailed form in the last 60 years. Good luck Michael Tilgner Mtilgner@baan.nl ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:35:20 +1000 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Computer Programs Michael Akard wrote: >Are there any good computer programs for learning AEL? Not that I am aware of. There are a couple of drilling/memory programs (using hypercard for apple macs),but these don't very basic items (signs and vocab). One of these ('Scribe of KMT') I wrote because of the lack of such programs. Nigel Strudwick wrote a hypercard program on basic (Polotskyan) grammar. Obviously a lot of scope here Michael (and little competition) .... ;-) If you could get enough money, time, and professional support, the sky is the limit ! Mike Dyall-Smith ******************************** Mike Dyall-Smith, Melbourne, Australia m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au ******************************** ============================================================================== From: Date: Mon, 8 Jun 1998 18:48:26 EDT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Cc: osirisl@idirect.ca Subject: AEL Weni: the Head of the "Db.t" Hello again, As I said in another post, I am still in the beginning of the "Weni" text, trying to get an idea about some of the more obscure or mysterious references. Another of these arises in this phrase: isT i3wti m sr n Db.t xr Hn n Ppi I was chief of the "Db chamber" under the Majesty of Pepi Although this remains untranslated in Budge's "An Introduction to Ancient Egyptian Literature" (and Lichtheim calls it the "robing room"), I don't see anything too obscure or mysterious about this title. If this was perchance discussed long ago before I returned to the AEL, forgive me for bringing it up again. However, I don't think "Db.t" refers to the "robing-room" in this case, although "Chief of the Wardrobe" may have been an important title in the court, as well. Except I think that Weni was perhaps too good a "businessman" to be wasted among the linens. Right from the start we get the idea that Weni was perhaps "overseer of tillage" ("mr pr Ar") and deputy inspector of the estates of Pharaoh. He may have even been what amounts to "Secretary of Agriculture". His common sense evidently caused the king to make him a judge, as well. In fact, it looks as though the Pharaoh trusted in the intelligence and discretion of Weni to do just about any important task and he had every title (except perhaps Keeper of the Royal Seal) from Bearer of the Royal Sandals (the man who followed the king wherever he went) to Governor of the South. As Weni says "I counted everything that was due to the Palace in the South twice and all the labor that was due to the Palace in the South I counted twice". In other words, Weni was an accountant, too. I get a general sense from this autobiography that King Pepi felt Weni was able to calculate everything as to its cost efficiency whether it was farming , quarrying or excavation. That is why I think , he being the "Head of the Db.t chamber", that the "Db.t" was some sort of an exchequer (department in charge of revenue) or that it was perhaps even the "pr Db.t" or "Chamber of Commerce", an institution still existing in most American cities. The term "Db" certainly has to do with "trade or barter", "Dbw" meaning "revenue or income". Captains of vessels that were engaged in trade were called "imi iriti wi3 Db" (Erman, L.D., ii 115b, f, m, 116a) or perhaps "wi3 Db imi iriti". Even the term "deben" (the commercial weight) had to do with this "Db". No doubt, a considerable space had to be set aside for keeping the accounts of the administration. The old nursery rhyme says "The king was in his counting house counting all his money...". There was no "money" in the Old Kingdom, of course, but that there was a "counting house" is very likely. As a bit of trivia unrelated to ancient Egypt, the term "exchequer" came about because the Norman kings of England and a habit people had then of keeping accounts on a table marked with squares, on which accounts of revenue were kept with counters. This is from the late Latin "scaccarium" or "chessboard". Thus, he "squared the accounts" or "we are square now". Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 10:09:13 -0400 From: Raven Brooke To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Weni: the Head of the "Db.t" Hello, As the word Db3 is defined as a garment *worn by god*, wouldn't the prestige implied by the title "chief of the robing room" make it a suitable post for an upper level coutier? Also, one could hardly find a better opportunity for a confidential breifing of the king, before he began his morning duries, than attending him as he dressed each day. Yours, Raven Brooke ============================================================================== From: Joyce Clark <9605627c@student.gla.ac.uk> To: AEgyptian-L Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 16:40:08 +0000 Subject: AEL Help Hi there, I'm new to this list, and fairly new to E-mailing so I'm sure that I'll get things wrong at times. If I do, I would appreciate being put right. The reason for this message is that I am about to embark on teaching myself ancient Egyptian and would appreciate any advice on a good book to start on. I am not a novice to language study, knowing French, Russian, Latin, Hebrew and Greek, so not too simplistic a book is required. If anyone can help please let me know titles - preferably including the ISBN number. Thanks in anticipation, Joyce Clark ============================================================================== From: Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 11:04:19 EDT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL "Tales from the Egyptian Crypts" Greetings! Did any of you see the program, "Mummies: Tales from the Egyptian Crypts?" It was on TLC recently (too dramatic for my taste; I guess I'm spoiled on Bob Brier!), and there was an interesting discussion of hieroglyphs, two points of which I would like to pass before you: 1) During this discussion it was said that less than 1 percent of the population could read hieroglyphs, and most of the scribes and priests read and wrote only hieratic. Can you confirm this? 2) [*most importantly*] The narrator also said that during the Ptolemaic period, scribes would frequently make mistakes carving the hieroglyphic inscriptions, and that someone else would have to come along and redo the correct symbol on top of the wrong one. BUT the examples shown in the program looked far too intentional to be mistakes, and the "wrong" symbol was clearly visible from underneath. It was as if the second glyph had been carefully lain on top of the first, being careful not to disrupt it in any way. As I was fuming over this, I came across Hoch's discussion of Combination Signs (s.42), symbols which were sometimes joined together for aesthetic reasons, and some of his examples looked very much like what I had seen described as "mistakes." As I read the explanation, I uttered a triumphal "Hah!," but would still appreciate any scholarly comments on your parts. Michael Akard Modesto, California ============================================================================== From: Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 13:31:40 EDT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Weni: the Head of the "Db.t" In a message dated 98-06-09 13:11:29 EDT, you write: << As the word Db3 is defined as a garment *worn by god*, wouldn't the prestige implied by the title "chief of the robing room" make it a suitable post for an upper level coutier? Also, one could hardly find a better opportunity for a confidential breifing of the king, before he began his morning duries, than attending him as he dressed each day. >> Yes, perhaps, but you have to admit that in terms referring to clothing or cloth, one generally can find some sort of determinative like V6 or S28 there--although by no means always--but it is in most attestations of "Db" referring to clothing or dressing in my dictionary. These determinatives are present in "wardrobe" terms like "sH n mnxwt" (clothes chamber) and "iri mnx.t" (keeper of the wardrobe). Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 12:58:28 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL "Tales from the Egyptian Crypts" AbuElisha@aol.com wrote: > 1) During this discussion it was said that less than 1 percent of the > population could read hieroglyphs, and most of the scribes and priests read > and wrote only hieratic. Can you confirm this? The literate learned first to write the every-day stuff, namely hieratic. Only the advanced students who needed to know learned hieroglyphic. And of those who did learn hieroglyphs, many had difficulty reading them and frequently made mistakes in reading. See Parkinson, _Voices from Ancient Egypt_, pp147-8 for comments and examples of this. > 2) [*most importantly*] The narrator also said that during the Ptolemaic > period, scribes would frequently make mistakes carving the hieroglyphic > inscriptions, and that someone else would have to come along and redo the > correct symbol on top of the wrong one. BUT the examples shown in the program > looked far too intentional to be mistakes, and the "wrong" symbol was clearly > visible from underneath. It was as if the second glyph had been carefully > lain on top of the first, being careful not to disrupt it in any way. As I > was fuming over this, I came across Hoch's discussion of Combination Signs > (s.42), symbols which were sometimes joined together for aesthetic reasons, > and some of his examples looked very much like what I had seen described as > "mistakes." As I read the explanation, I uttered a triumphal "Hah!," but > would still appreciate any scholarly comments on your parts. It is quite possible that you are correct, since there was a proliferation of combination signs in Ptolemaic times (in fact of signs of all types, boosting the nimber from the usual 700 or so to over 4000!). However, it is quite likely that mistakes did happen and the they were, at least in some instances, corrected. An example of this comes from the Middle Kingdom tomb of Senwosret-Ankh: The interior of the chamber was inscribed with a complete set of Pyramid texts. Quite a number of mistakes had been made and corrected after proof-reading. The kinds of mistakes made would seem to indicate that the hieroglyphs were drawn based on a hieratic document. In the New Kingdom, there are examples of painted hieroglyphic texts in tombs which were first roughed in with red and then refined and corrected in black, before final carving and painting. "Errare humanum est!" -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 12:38:22 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Help Joyce Clark wrote: > The reason for this message is that I am about to embark on teaching > myself ancient Egyptian and would appreciate any advice on a good > book to start on. I am not a novice to language study, knowing > French, Russian, Latin, Hebrew and Greek, so not too simplistic a > book is required. > > If anyone can help please let me know titles - preferably including > the ISBN number. The best I know of for learning from is _Middle Egyptian Grammar_, James Hoch, published by BenBen. I'm not sure how easy it will be to get it in the UK, but you can get it direct from the author at James_Hoch@mail.campuslife.utoronto.ca . And of course you should practice on any and every hieroglyphic text you come across. One fairly cheap and available collection for study (starting with single words) is _Egyptian Readingbook_, A. deBuck, ISBN 0-89005-213-1. You can also order both of these from Eisenbraun's ( http://www.eisenbrauns.com/ ). Your knowledge of Hebrew will probably help out, as being more closely related to Egyptian than any of the European languages - they have some family quirks in common. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 09 Jun 1998 17:44:31 -0400 From: Don Feruggia To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Weni L14-L16 Mike Dyall-Smith wrote: > So can anyone comment on the alternation between sDm.n=f and indicative sDm=f > ??? The modern concept of the "sentence" is relatively recent, historically. Egyptian falls more into the pattern of the Greek "period", a long sentence containing many complex phrases, or even into the pattern of natural speech. If you listen to people talk, not necessarily educated people, like on the street or in a bar, people don't talk in sentences, people talk in phrases, self-contained units of though, strung together more or less loosely, that seems to be how our brains work. The above is an example of real-life speech. Let's call it an "utterance", since it isn't really a sentence. Few English teachers would approve of it and few editors would print it, but that is how people talk. Thousands of years of literary tradition have taught us to convert loose utterances like this to well-formed sentences before we write them down. Writing at the dawn of literature, however, the Egyptians didn't have this tradition. Their writings (especially early writings) are often as loosely constructed as natural utterances. Phrase is heaped upon phrase until the utterance has nowhere else to go, then a new utterance is started. The sDm.n-f form in this passage doesn't start an independent utterance: it is merely heaped on the one before it (and to try to analyze the exact relationship between the two is more of a psychological than a literary endeavor). sDm.n-f is often used in this way: it was apparently not a very emphatic form, good for continuing a thought (maybe it's even a weakened form of sDm.in-f? just a thought). Loprieno notes this use of sDm.n-f on page 187: "This pattern is common in past contexts, where the bare sDm.n-f sets forth the rhythm of narration." The phrases following this, listing the locations that sent troops, bring the utterance to a logical dead-end so a new utterance is started with the indicative sDm-f (hAb wi Hm-f Xr.i-HAt mSa pn). Note that the army (mSa pn) has to be explicitly mentioned to pick up the thread of the narrative, which had been lost. New utterances in Weni are often started with the indicative sDm-f, the stative, or a topicalized subject. These must have been somewhat emphatic forms in speech. ============================================================================== From: Tom Dawkes To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 09:47:50 GMT0BST Subject: Re: AEL Help Joyce A very up-to=date introduction is Collier, Mark and Hanley, Bill How to Read Hieroglyphs : A Step by Step Guide to Teach Yourself. Brit.Museum P., Mar 98. - 23cm.160p. 200ill.R.Parkinson. - 0-7141-1910-5 It deals with temple texts not literary ones but is very well printed with lots of examples It costs stlg9.99 plus stlg1.90 p&p from British Museum Press tel: 01713231234. The standard work is Alan Gardiner's Egyptian Grammar 3d ed. (1957) Aris & Phillips. 0900416351. stlg25. It is essentially 70-80 years old in approach. Prof Joris Borghouts of Leiden is reported to be working on a standard grammar in English, based on his 2-vol Dutch grammar of 1993. Happy hunting! --------------------------------- Tom Dawkes Arts & Social Studies Library University of Wales Cardiff PO Box 430 Cardiff CF1 3XT United Kingdom Phone: 01222-874818 x 5691 Email: DawkesT@cf.ac.uk http://www.cf.ac.uk/uwcc/liby/arts.html --------------------------------- ============================================================================== From: Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:59:52 EDT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL One Less Queen In the Harem? Here is some information I received from a kind source, who asked me to pass it on: "Roccati, quoting a title reported in texts from the mastaba of queen Mereshankh, interpreted the word i3m.t as "favourite" and renders: "There was a trial in the royal harem against the great favourite, the royal wife, in secret...". He says that the title of "great favourite" in Old Kingdom designated the role of teacher of the queen; evidently he supposes that the royal wife involved had (previously?) the title of teacher of a queen. He quotes also the same title in the inscriptions of the family of the vizier Djau from Abydos. Edda Bresciani, Letteratura e Poesia dell'Antico Egitto, Turin 1990, rendered the passage (I translate from Italian): " There was a trial in the harem against the great royal wife Iametes..." without further remarks." Marianne Luban ============================================================================== From: Joyce Clark <9605627c@student.gla.ac.uk> To: AEgyptian-L Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 14:15:31 +0000 Subject: AEL Help Thanks to all those who sent me helpful ideas on where to start studying. No doubt I'll be in touch again. Joyce Clark ============================================================================== From: "Rohan Fenwick" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Re: Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 22:36:47 PDT Hi Michael, It is true that only about one percent of the general Egyptian population were literate. Being a scribe required many years of schooling from childhood, and hieroglyphic was only used for monumental inscriptions. Hieratic was an everyday script, so I would imagine that it was taught first. Oddly, modern Egyptian enthusiasts learn hieroglyphic first (myself included) and only try hieratic after they are comfortable with hieroglyphic. In reply to your query about superpositioned hieroglyphs, if you go to the Center for Computer-aided Egyptological Research and look at Page 3 of the Westcar Papyrus, you will see at least four hieroglyphs that have been combined. The only one of these I can remember is a symbol that combines the "doorbolt" s with the determinative showing a pair of legs. The page can be found at: http://home.prcn.org/~sfryer/westcar/index.html Try page 3 to start with. Regards, Rohan Fenwick Brisbane, Queensland, Australia ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================== To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: "Kurt Osterwald-Lenum" Subject: AEL Re: cartouches Date: Thu, 11 Jun 98 10:52:19 PDT Dear friends, I am a newcomer to this subject. I am very interested in translating name cartouches,but I am running into difficulties becaurse the official translation not follow the glyphs. If you look at "tut-ankh-amon" cartouches you will see the glyphs: #1: RA-KHEPER-U-NEB #1a: #2: AMEN-TUT-ANKH-HEQ-AN-SUTEN #2a: amen-tut-ankh-prinz of Heliopolis-king of south The official translation as far as I know says: #1: KHEPERU-NEB-RA #2: TUT-ANKH-AMEN Why do they not translate from left to right or right to left but jump in and our? Can anyone help me? Regards Kurt #2A: ============================================================================== From: Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:07:30 EDT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Egyptian Workshop 2.0 Greetings All! Have any of your heard about Dr. Allen Fletcher's computer program, Egyptian Workshop 2.0? I saw it advertised on the Ancient Egypt page. Michael Akard Modesto, California ============================================================================== From: Sid Kitchel Subject: Re: AEL Re: cartouches To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Kurt Osterwald-Lenum wrote: |-> |-> Dear friends, |-> |-> I am a newcomer to this subject. I am very interested in |-> translating name cartouches,but I am running into difficulties |-> becaurse the official translation not follow the glyphs. If you look |-> at "tut-ankh-amon" cartouches you will see the glyphs: |-> |-> #1: RA-KHEPER-U-NEB |-> |-> #1a: |-> |-> #2: AMEN-TUT-ANKH-HEQ-AN-SUTEN |-> |-> #2a: amen-tut-ankh-prinz of Heliopolis-king of south |-> |-> The official translation as far as I know says: |-> |-> #1: KHEPERU-NEB-RA |-> |-> #2: TUT-ANKH-AMEN |-> |-> Why do they not translate from left to right or right to left |-> but jump in and our? |-> |-> Can anyone help me? I'll try. You've run into a "problem" of writing not transliteration. You see "AMEN-TUT-ANKH" because the Ancient Egyptians were honoring the written form of Amen by placing it first. This occurs in many cartouches where royal names often contain the names of gods. The same analysis applies to Nebkheperure in #1 above. We know the "correct" order of syllables from other sources. --Sid -- Sid Kitchel__________________________________________Informix Software, Inc. Email: kitchel@informix.com Suite 670 Voice: 503-721-2369 921 SW Washington St. FAX: 503-221-2633 Portland, OR 97205 ============================================================================== From: "Rohan Fenwick" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Re: cartouches Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:23:32 PDT Hi Kurt, You wrote "I am very interested in translating name cartouches,but I am running into difficulties becaurse the official translation not follow the glyphs." The Egyptian language was quite a strange one as far as reading goes. The symbols were not necessarily placed "in order" as such, they were placed this way for aesthetic reasons. The glyphs were placed this way to make the script "look better", to fit an inscription neatly onto a block of stone or a monument. This is the same reason some hieroglyphs were joined together to form single glyphs, even though they were usually placed apart. Even we have partly this same conception in English; if you read any newspaper, you will see this. eg. ___Take any newspaper article and read it. Some words, for exa- ___m p l e , a r e h y p h e n a t e d , a n d s o m e ___are stretched to fit an area. There was no consideration for people trying to read it 4000 years later, because they would have had no idea we would try to read it. In the cartouche of Tutankhamun, the glyphs actually read t w t ankh y mn (phoneticically complemented on the n). Feel free to email if you have any further questions. Rohan Fenwick Brisbane, Queensland, Australia rfenwick18@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================== From: "Rohan Fenwick" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Program Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 18:49:25 PDT Hi all, I'm just wondering about some major points to include in an AEL program. I'm starting on a HyperCard program very soon that covers the basics and some advanced of Ancient Egyptian, and I'm looking for advice and examples of maybe some sentences in Egyptian with the transliteration and translation as well as grammar and verb conjugation. If you can help, email me. Thanks! Rohan Fenwick ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================== From: Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 02:43:32 EDT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Re: AEL Re: cartouches Hi Kurt! Regarding the inscriptions: >>#1: RA-KHEPER-U-NEB and >> #2: AMEN-TUT-ANKH-HEQ-AN-SUTEN The first thing you're seeing, which is immediately dismaying when you don't know what's going on, is a case of honorific transposition occurring in both names. What that means is, if a person's name includes the name of a god, such as Ra or Amen, that portion of the name will be written first, even though it isn't pronounced first. Imagine if all the traditional Christian names which contain "el" (God) were written that way! The name Daniel would be written Eldani. My own name, Michael, would be spelled Elmicha. That's kind of what's happening with kheper-u-ra and tut-ankh-amon. Al and Steve, did I get that mostly right? Hope that helps, Kurt! Michael Akard Modesto, California ============================================================================== From: Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 13:51:51 EDT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL KMT vs. GPT Hi. At the risk of beating a dead horse, have you guys discussed the origin of the name 'Egypt?' It's often mentioned that 'Egypt' and 'Copt' have their origins in the Greek name for Egypt, 'Aigyptos.' Or something like that. But isn't it equally plausible that the Greek name, with the hard consonants has its foundation in the actual AE ? It seems like more than a coincidence that all three phones correspond respectively in place of articulation. If a Greek traveller were attempting to transliterate the country's name, possibly pronounced something like /ekemt/, it would be easy to mis-hear the penultimate phoneme as the stop /p/, rather than the nasal /m/, especially if the speaker was speaking in a moderately fast speed and was using casual, relaxed pronunciation. You phoneticians out there, what do you think? (Please silence me if this is 'old hat.') Michael Akard Modesto, California ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:24:18 -0400 From: Raven Brooke To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Re: cartouches Rohan Fenwick wrote: > > Hi Kurt, > You wrote > "I am very interested in > translating name cartouches,but I am running into difficulties > becaurse the official translation not follow the glyphs." > The Egyptian language was quite a strange one as far as reading goes. > The symbols were not necessarily placed "in order" as such, they were > placed this way for aesthetic reasons. The glyphs were placed this way > to make the script "look better", to fit an inscription neatly onto a > block of stone or a monument. and may I add: Also, there were honorific considerations, as when the name of a god, or the word god, was included as part of a name: the god's name would be written first even if it were not pronounced that way. Kings also had more than one name, and the one by which we know them is not always the one used on monuments. There were also a few 'glyphs that were not part of the king's name but were sometimes written with it anyway, the meanings of which were "power", "ruler" and the like. I'll bet the ancient scribes *did* expect their writings to be read all these years later, they just never guessed that *we* wouldn't be *them*. ; ) Yours, Raven Brooke. ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:44:26 -0400 From: Raven Brooke To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Weni: the Head of the "Db.t" Hi Marianne, You wrote: Yes, perhaps, but you have to admit that in terms referring to clothing or cloth, one generally can find some sort of determinative like V6 or S28 there--although by no means always--but it is in most attestations of "Db" referring to clothing or dressing in my dictionary. Well, I would not neccessarily expect a "clothing" determinative in a word meant to denote a room, and this one does in fact have a "house" (O1) determinitive, as does the same word when used to mean "sarcophagus". In Faulkner's dictiomary the determinitive used for Db3, garment worn by god, is U30 (3 of them), which is said by Gardiner to represent a pitchfork (!). Since the same or similar word is used to refer to: 1.garment worn by god 2.crowning 3.robing-room 4.sarcophagus 5.altars Could there be some religious (or other) reason for this spelling? Any comment from our resident experts? Raven Brooke ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 16:48:58 +0200 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL "Tales from the Egyptian Crypts" Stephen Fryer 'ecrit : > AbuElisha@aol.com wrote: > > > 1) During this discussion it was said that less than 1 percent of the > > population could read hieroglyphs, and most of the scribes and priests read > > and wrote only hieratic. Can you confirm this? The percentage in itself is IMHO quite arbitrary, and depends on many factors, such as the definition of litterate. One thing is quite sure, the scribes first learned hieratic. As Stephen has said, the skills of most of them in hieroglyphic writing where limited. In the graffito left by mining expeditions, we have many example of hieroglyphs written by administrative scribes ; in many cases, you find hieratic signs in the middle of hieroglyphs, because the scribe did not know how to draw them. > > 2) [*most importantly*] The narrator also said that during the Ptolemaic > > period, scribes would frequently make mistakes carving the hieroglyphic > > inscriptions, and that someone else would have to come along and redo the > > correct symbol on top of the wrong one. BUT the examples shown in the program > > looked far too intentional to be mistakes, and the "wrong" symbol was clearly > > visible from underneath. It was as if the second glyph had been carefull I haven't seen the show, but in many cases, when the error was found only after carving, the sign would be filled with plaster, and the new sign would be carved on top. As plaster is not very resistent, it has often falled, and we are left with a mixing of signs. regards, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) IUT de Montreuil 140 rue de la Nouvelle France 93100 Montreuil FRANCE tel 01 48 70 37 09 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== From: Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 12:02:57 EDT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Re: Westcar Papyrus Thanks Rohan, I enjoyed the papyrus. There were indeed some interesting examples of combination signs. Regarding my earlier comment about Mummies: Tales from the Egyptian Crypts, I must recant some of what I said. The view of symbols superimposed upon one another did look quite higgledy-piggledy, and Al Beren's explanation of the correction plaster falling off over time seems a likely explanation. There were views of combination signs as well, but these were shown only in passing, and not described as mistakes. Thanks again! Michael Akard Modesto, California ============================================================================== From: Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 00:49:18 EDT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Weni: the Head of the "Db.t" In a message dated 98-06-12 19:50:11 EDT, you write: << Well, I would not neccessarily expect a "clothing" determinative in a word meant to denote a room, and this one does in fact have a "house" (O1) determinitive, as does the same word when used to mean "sarcophagus".>> "Chief of the Coffin Chamber"?? I don't know.... >> In Faulkner's dictiomary the determinitive used for Db3, garment worn by god, is U30 (3 of them), which is said by Gardiner to represent a pitchfork (!). >> My U30 doesn't look anything like a pitchfork. Gardiner's U30 is a "potter's kiln". You sure you have the right number? This "Db.t" is up to interpretation, I'm afraid. You are not going to be able to figure it out on the basis of attestations this time. Marianne Luban ============================================================================== From: Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 10:20:03 EDT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL KMT vs. GPT I'm unsure whether there are other opinions on the subject, but Antonio Loprieno's _Ancient Egyptian_ cites the reconstructed pronunciation of km.t as /ku:mat/ with an aspirated k; hence coptic /Khe:me/ (XHME). As for the whole Aiguptos thing, I don't know. Seems unlikely, given modern reconstructions of AE, that there would be a word 'ekemte'... but then again, what do I know? When is the first attestation of the Greek Aiguptos, anyway? That would give us something to work with. Brian Betty urnammak@aol.com ============================================================================== From: "Mark Vygus" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL KMT vs. GPT Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 19:53:34 +0100 According to Cerny in 'The legacy of Egypt' oxford uni press, chapter 8. the word Egypt comes from the Greek Aiguptos which in turn comes from the Egyptian Hwt-kA-ptH (The mansion of the soul of Ptah) which was one of the names given to Memphis. It was the Greeks who decided to call the country after this town and not the Egyptians. kmt is a different word altogether. Mark V nsw-bit@msn.com ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: "AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk" Subject: AEL AW: AEL KMT vs. GPT Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 22:04:58 +-200 >When is the first attestation of the Greek Aiguptos, anyway? That would give us something to work with. Brian Betty urnammak@aol.com *** It's already in the Linear B tablets (Mycenaean Greek): _ai-ku-pi-ti-yo_ "the Egyptian" (personal name or ethnicon), so ca. 1300 BC, which became Aiguptios in Homer (ca. 600 BC?) and Classical Greek. kind regards, Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== From: Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 17:42:25 EDT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Re: AEL KMT vs. GPT I don't know when the first attestation of the Greek 'Aigyptos' is dated= . The issue we're dealing with is whether the two names for Egypt, the word= s,=0A"aigypt(os)" and "kemet (or ku:mat)" are directly related, or whethe= r the=0Aformer developed independently of the latter and just happens, by= some=0Astrange, cosmic(!?) coincidence to consist of hard consonants whi= ch correspond=0Aperfectly in place of articulation to kmt. In the reconstruction /ku:mat/, what would happen to the listener's perce= ption=0Aof the name, if the final syllable were unstressed, as is common = in other=0Alanguages, and the /a/ -> / /? Or even /a/ -> /=F8/? The nas= al /m/ would very=0Alikely assimilate in manner of articulation to that o= f the final /t/,=0Aresulting in /m/ -> /p/. The resulting form would be = /ku:mat/ -> /ku:pt/,=0Aalmost identical in sound to the modern word, 'Cop= t.' But what about the initial in the Greek? Any Hellenists out there w= ho=0Acan provide enlightenment as to whether the suffix is/was a pro= ductive=0Aform in AG? Michael Akard Modesto, California ============================================================================== From: Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 17:48:22 EDT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL 'Slave' vs 'Majesty' Greetings. I find it interesting that the word /Hr/ is used to indicate both a slave and a king. The only difference seems to be in the determinative. Why is this? Can anybody comment? Michael Akard Modesto, California ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 10:07:15 +1000 To: Ancient Egyptian Language From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Weni vocab Dear Weni-philes, I have been working on the clickable vocab for Weni page 3. Although the opening screen starts with the transliteration in the lower frame, clicking on the signs will load the vocab and give you the definitions, so it is working. So if you go to : http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/texts/ael/weni.ael/vocab/p3vocab/p3frmset.htm You can begin working on the next page. Let me know if you have any problems. Regards, Mike D-S ******************************** Mike Dyall-Smith, Melbourne, Australia m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au ******************************** ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 20:18:10 -0400 From: Raven Brooke To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Weni: the Head of the "Db.t" dear Marianne, You wrote:> My U30 doesn't look anything like a pitchfork. > Gardiner's U30 is a "potter's kiln". You sure you have the right number? Sorry, my error, I'm afraid! The sign given in Faulkners dictionary is O 30, reversed; it is just located between signs U12 and U13. Gardiner does list it as a pitchfork. ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 18:06:31 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL 'Slave' vs 'Majesty' AbuElisha@aol.com wrote: > I find it interesting that the word /Hr/ is used to indicate both a slave and > a king. The only difference seems to be in the determinative. > > Why is this? Can anybody comment? I presume you mer Hm not "Hr" I asked the same question a while back, and never got any really good answer. Basically it seems to come down to the fact that there was just one word here, meaning "person". This could be applied I suppose to someone too exalted to name, or too humble to be worth naming. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: Date: Sat, 13 Jun 1998 22:53:01 EDT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Re: Re: AEL KMT vs. GPT Thank you Al, Aayko and Mark for your revealing explanations. Even I could follow them! Regarding the Egyptian word, KMT, what is known about its meaning? Cheers! Michael Akard Modesto, California ============================================================================== From: Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 00:37:26 EDT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Re: AEL Weni vocab Dear Mike D-S, Boy, you put a lot of work into this interactive vocab page! I really like it! Thanks! Yours, Michael Akard Modesto, California ============================================================================== From: Michael Tilgner To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: AEL AW: AEL AW: AEL KMT vs. GPT Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:12:22 +0200 Aayko Eyma wrote about the origin of the word "Egypt" (Aigyptos): > *** It's already in the Linear B tablets (Mycenaean Greek): > _ai-ku-pi-ti-yo_ "the Egyptian" (personal name or ethnicon), > so ca. 1300 BC, which became Aiguptios in Homer (ca. 600 BC?) > and Classical Greek. Dear Aayko, can you give a source for this information? Thanks, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@baan.nl ============================================================================== From: Michael Tilgner To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: AEL AW: AEL 'Slave' vs 'Majesty' Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 11:12:00 +0200 Michael Akard wrote: > I find it interesting that the word /Hr/ is used to indicate both a slave and > a king. The only difference seems to be in the determinative. I suppose you are talking about Hm. The "Lexikon der Aegyptologie", Vol. V, 1984, cols. 982-987, entry "Sklaven" [slaves] reports - col. 983 -: The original meaning of Hm is "body", which would explain that Hm could designate the king "as a physical person" as well as a person of lesser rights. See also Hm "servant", e.g. Hm-nTr priest ("servant of god"). Sign U36 "club used by fullers in washing" does not have any relation with the original meaning. BTW, our notion of "slave" is influenced by Roman conceptions which are not all valid for Egypt. Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@baan.nl ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL a little big question Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 16:40:48 +-200 Hi all, I was wondering whether there was any consistency in the use of _wr_ and +_' 3_. Both mean great in size/quantity as well as great in quality/rank/seniority. F.e. wr and '3 can both mean 'magnate' (big shot). But you do not have the '3.w of foreign lands, I think, like you have wr.w, or do you? wr seems to appear in the quality/rank-meaning very often, but that does not mean that '3 dominates in the size-meaning - we still have the big sea w3D-wr f.e. Cf. wr-ib = "insolent" '3 ib (Hr) = "to be arrogant, to plume oneself on" both expressing having a too big Ego. So are there any rules here, or is this just a historically grown situation of when what appears? Why did we not end up with a Pharur? ;) Well, you'll get the picture. kind regards, Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 09:25:22 +0000 From: Kasia & Malcolm Jarrett To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL 'Slave' vs 'Majesty' HI! An excellent article on the issue of Slaves in ancient Egypt can be found in: Loprieno, Antonio. Slaves. In: The Egyptians. Ed. Sergio Donadoni. Trans. Robert Bianchi, Anna Lisa Crone, Charles Lambert, Thomas Ritter. Chicago, London: The University of Chicago Press, 1997. 185-220. --Kasia Szpakowska ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: AEL AW: AEL KMT vs. GPT Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 17:26:16 +-200 > *** It's already in the Linear B tablets (Mycenaean Greek): > _ai-ku-pi-ti-yo_ "the Egyptian" (personal name or ethnicon), > so ca. 1300 BC, which became Aiguptios in Homer (ca. 600 BC?) > and Classical Greek. **Dear Michael, The Mycenaean occurence is in: - Talanta vol. XXVIII-XXIX, p.157 and in - Michael Wood 'In search for the Trojan War' (1985), chapter 6 and I think in most other books that in some way dealing with Linear B; these are the ones I remembered. And apparantly (strictly judging by them being among the references in Talanta) also in the authorative volumes: J.K. McArthur - Place-names in the Knossos tablets (1993), p.35 E.H. Cline - Sailing the wine-dark sea (1994), p. 128 Hope you have access to any of these. I'm no expert, so can't explain the full story: Egypt < Aegyptus < Aiguptos < *Aikupito(?) < Ht-k3-ptH notably that 'ai' instead of '[h]a' (cf. Athribis, Hathor) seems strange, but what do I know? Memphis was of course taken pars pro toto ('capital' for whole nation). kind regards, Aayko ==============================================================================