From: "Jenny Carrington" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 10:12:05 +1000 Hi Mark-Jan, > line 40) aq sDm jm=f mtrt-jb nb > May hearing enter him, and all sincerity*. > [...] >Reconsidering sDm, I see >that Hannig has the exact phrase aq sDm jm=f, with sDm translated as >"obedience". I would now opt for: > May obedience and all sincerity enter him. I'm not sure about "obedience". In the context I still feel that 'hearing / listening' is the operative word. (But that's my personal preference, it could well be 'obedience'.) 'Sincerity' is ok, it's not so far away from 'exactness of heart' really. However you look at it, it's all to do with the correct transference of knowledge. My translation of the next passage is fairly similar to yours. (42) HAt-a m Tsw n mdt nfrt Beginning of the maxims of fine speech, (43a) Ddt (i)n r-pat HAt-a which are spoken by the heir, the local prince, Ddt - Perfective Passive Participle, with a feminine 't' ending, because of 'mdt'. (43b) it-nTr mry-nTr God's Father, beloved of the god (44) sA-nsw smsw n Xt.f the eldest king's son of his body (46) imy-r niwt TAty ptH Htp overseer of the city, the vizier Ptahhotep, (47) m sbA xmw r rx in teaching the ignorant about knowledge (48) r tp-Hsb mdt nfrt according to the standard of good speech, (49) m Axt n sDmt(y).fy with benefit to those who will listen, **sDmt(y).fy = future passive participle (50) m wggt n nty r tht st with woe to those who will disobey it. (51) Dd.in.f xr sA.f Then he said to his son: ================ Is anyone else working on this? It would be great to have more people join in with comments or questions. m Htp Jenny ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 11:57:34 -0700 (PDT) From: sonofthemummy Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Hi; The early translators had to keep plugging in translated words until they found one that fit well in all cases. In this case, I think that "faithful" might be a better one. Evidently, the Egyptians valued someone who would report what he saw or heard without adding, subtracting, or distorting. In today's litigious and entertainment-driven society, this seems now almost an alien concept. We can be fairly sure that giving faithful testimony was the indication. But, choosing how to render it into English, we have to decide whether to go with one word or use more, if being faithful to the original requires that of us, owing to the impoverishment of modern conceptions or vocabulary. Bob ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 01:42:09 +0100 Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep From: Mark-Jan Nederhof To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Hi Jenny, > (42) HAt-a m Tsw n mdt nfrt > Beginning of the maxims of fine speech, A small issue, but I like your choice of "fine", which fits better than other translations I considered for this adjective. > (43a) Ddt (i)n r-pat HAt-a > which are spoken by the heir, the local prince, I think your emendation of (i)n is unnecessary. The form Ddt.n seems plausible enough to me. > (47) m sbA xmw r rx > in teaching the ignorant about knowledge I had taken r rx to be preposition + infinitive "to know". You (and Hannig's dictionary) opt for preposition + noun "about knowledge". The translation may be the same either way, and perhaps it is a moot point, especially if one takes noun rx to be substantival use of the infinitive rx. But I just wonder whether I misunderstand the range of possible meanings of r + infinitive. More concretely, I'm puzzled why Hannig cites this precise phrase under noun rx rather than under verb rx. Would r + infinitive otherwise mean that "to know" refers to "teaching" rather than to "the ignorant", which is of course not what is meant? > (48) r tp-Hsb mdt nfrt > according to the standard of good speech, You missed out 'n'. I wonder whether your translation of mdt nfrt is intentionally inconsistent with the earlier occurrence. > Is anyone else working on this? It would be great to have more people join > in with comments or questions. Hear, hear! Mark-Jan ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 13:22:17 +0200 (CEST) From: "omezzab@tin.it" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: AEL Ptahhotep and Sesostris Dear AEL members, a couple of questions about Egyptian names. First Ptahhotep. I just noticed it is a palindrome: "ptH-Htp". The same goes with its pronounciation, since, according to Loprieno "ptH" should be pronounced /pita:H / and "Htp" /Ha:tip". So, could that name be pronounced "PitHa:tip" (stress on /a/)? Second name: Sesostris. Where does it come from? No matter how hard I try I cannot trace it back to /z-n(y)-wsrt/. My only possible guess, but highly questionable, is that the hieroglyphic sign for /n/ N35 has been read /z/ O34. So we have "z-z-wsrt" with a sound which may have a certain resemblance with its Greek counterpart. Any "sounder" explanation? Thank you all Orlando ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 10:17:01 -0700 (PDT) From: sonofthemummy Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep To: Ancient Egyptian Language List (50) m wggt n nty r tht st with woe to those who will disobey it. == Hi; I think I need to suggest that this one goes down a bit quickly, borrowing maybe a bit of the kind of posture we find in later, more sentimental paradigms. It seems to me that wggt suggests accumulating negative consequences due to oversights in judgment, and tht may suggest more a sense of intellectual disregard than moral infraction. There is a strong sense of cause and effect in PtahHotep, I think; and, when English translations fall short, it seems to me that it is because the meaning has been magnetized by authoritarian ideas that came after Egypt than the authoritative ones that were alive and well in maat culture. We all grew up with the Bible, which was about the personality of a deity. But with the Egyptians, there was more a focus on the character of the deity or deities, affording a means by which they could be emulated, not just pleased. Bob ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 22:42:28 +1000 Hi Mark-Jan, >> (43a) Ddt (i)n r-pat HAt-a >> which are spoken by the heir, the local prince, > >I think your emendation of (i)n is unnecessary. The form >Ddt.n seems plausible enough to me. If it isn't 'in' how do you account for 'by' in the translation, and what form is Ddt? I puzzled over this for a while and concluded it was a Perfective Passive Participle plus 'in' which is always followed by a noun. (Allen, p.84). 'in' indicates the agent (a noun) with a passive verb. >> (42) HAt-a m Tsw n mdt nfrt >> Beginning of the maxims of fine speech, >> >> (48) r tp-Hsb mdt nfrt >> according to the standard of good speech, > >You missed out 'n'. > >I wonder whether your translation of mdt nfrt >is intentionally inconsistent with the earlier occurrence. Thanks for noting the missed 'n'. I suppose I should have been consistent with the translation of mdt nfrt, though I did feel there was a subtle difference between the eloquence of the verse implied in the first instance, and the more rigid expectation of a standard, in the second instance. >> (47) m sbA xmw r rx >> in teaching the ignorant about knowledge > >I had taken r rx to be preposition + infinitive "to know". You (and >Hannig's dictionary) >opt for preposition + noun "about knowledge". The translation may be the >same either way, and perhaps it is a moot point, especially if one takes >noun rx >to be substantival use of the infinitive rx. But I just wonder whether >I misunderstand >the range of possible meanings of r + infinitive. More concretely, I'm >puzzled why Hannig >cites this precise phrase under noun rx rather than under verb rx. >Would r + infinitive >otherwise mean that "to know" refers to "teaching" rather than to "the >ignorant", which is of course not what is meant? I just felt the verb at the end of the sentence seemed awkward, and did not fit the Verb-Subject-Object word order. If you take out 'the ignorant' for a moment, and ask "teaching what?", a noun seems more plausible. At least, that was my reasoning. But then r+infinitive acts as a noun anyway, in the pseudo-verbal construction. It also denotes action yet to happen, which is the case here, as he is yet to begin instructing his son. Or preposition and infinitive (not necessarily pseudo-verbal). The infinitive by itself, being a verbal noun, would still fit the word order. So I am still none the wiser. There must be something in the syntax which distinguishes the correct construction. I'll keep working on it. Beginning of the maxims of fine speech which are spoken by [........] Ptahhotep, in teaching the ignorant (in order to know about) / (about knowledge concerning) the standard of (good) / (fine) speech. Pick one! Jenny ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 22:46:47 +1000 Hi Bob, (49) m Axt n sDmt(y).fy with benefit to those who will listen, (50) m wggt n nty r tht st with woe to those who will disobey it. We need to look at the preceding line(49) along with (50). As they counterbalance each other. Axt = beneficial, useful, profitable. Faulkner has "what is good, profitable, useful" for this specific use. wggt = woe. Faulkner's only reference is to this text. wgg can also mean weakness or misery. I think 'misery' also pairs well with 'benefit'. sDm = hear, listen, obey, understand. tht = go astray, neglect it, falsify, err. Faulkner's reference has 'disobey', which of course is a direct opposite if you read sDm as 'obey'. So basically if you listen and learn, you will benefit. If you make errors (through neglect or design) you will suffer. More a practical result than a moral judgement. m Htp Jenny -------------------------------------------------- From: "sonofthemummy" Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 3:17 AM To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep > > (50) m wggt n nty r tht st > with woe to those who will disobey it. > > == > > Hi; > I think I need to suggest that this one goes down a bit quickly, borrowing > maybe a bit of the kind of posture we find in later, more sentimental > paradigms. It seems to me that wggt suggests accumulating negative > consequences due to oversights in judgment, and tht may suggest more a > sense of intellectual disregard than moral infraction. There is a strong > sense of cause and effect in PtahHotep, I think; and, when English > translations fall short, it seems to me that it is because the meaning has > been magnetized by authoritarian ideas that came after Egypt than the > authoritative ones that were alive and well in maat culture. We all grew > up with the Bible, which was about the personality of a deity. But with > the Egyptians, there was more a focus on the character of the deity or > deities, affording a means by which they could be emulated, not just > pleased. > Bob > > ============================================================================== Subject: Re: AEL Ptahhotep and Sesostris From: Rhio Barnhart Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 17:04:33 -0700 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Orlando, Sesostris is a Greek interpretation/corruption of an Egyptian name that appears in Herodotus. See; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sesostris Also see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senusret Many thanks for your ongoing work. Regards, RHB ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 09:28:12 -0700 (PDT) From: sonofthemummy Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Hi; Much good thinking, there. Yeah, I think that earlier in the text, wggt seems to mean "misery" as a natural consequence old age. I, my self, would read sDm as "heed", and then would read tht as "disregard", as the author makes so many statements of principle that require a certain accumulated ability to apply. Your comments help guard me from thinking too presumptively. Thanks, so much! Best wishes Bob ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 12:41:34 -0700 (PDT) From: sonofthemummy Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep--convenient paper copy work sheets To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Hi; If anyone wants to use my study guide, it is at: http://www.scribd.com/doc/21403019/The-Maxims-of-PtahHotep Scribd has changed its display app and it is no longer compatible with the browser I use, and the PDF looks jumbled in the window. But, if downloaded, it still looks fine in Acrobat. I am sure there are plenty of mistakes, but the pages can be printed out as desired on standard letter sized paper, with plenty of room for notes, amendments, etc.. Bob ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 09:17:27 -0700 (PDT) From: sonofthemummy Subject: Re: AEL Ptahhotep and Sesostris To: Ancient Egyptian Language List I think that there is a word in Sanskrit, pitar, which means "father". Since scientists have noticed a link between the residents of Cairo and genetic profiles in India, I think it may have some bearing. ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 21:13:15 +0100 Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep From: Mark-Jan Nederhof To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Hi Jenny, >>> (43a) Ddt (i)n r-pat HAt-a >>> which are spoken by the heir, the local prince, >> >> I think your emendation of (i)n is unnecessary. The form >> Ddt.n seems plausible enough to me. > > > If it isn't 'in' how do you account for 'by' in the translation, and what > form is Ddt? > I puzzled over this for a while and concluded it was a Perfective Passive > Participle plus 'in' which is always followed by a noun. (Allen, p.84). > 'in' indicates the agent (a noun) with a passive verb. Ddt.n is probably a perfect relative form. (Allen chapter 24.) "spoken by X" or "which X spoke". >>> (47) m sbA xmw r rx >>> in teaching the ignorant about knowledge > [...] > If you take out 'the ignorant' for a > moment, and ask "teaching what?", a noun seems more plausible. At least, > that was my reasoning. But then r+infinitive acts as a noun anyway, in the > pseudo-verbal construction. It also denotes action yet to happen, which is > the case here, as he is yet to begin instructing his son. > Or preposition and infinitive (not necessarily pseudo-verbal). The > infinitive by itself, being a verbal noun, would still fit the word order. > So I am still none the wiser. There must be something in the syntax which > distinguishes the correct construction. I'll keep working on it. I don't think that involving the pseudo-verbal construction in this discussion is helpful. A pseudo-verbal construction would be noun + r + infinitive, here we have preposition + noun + r + infinitive. Also word order is not the issue. A construction r + infinitive for expressing purpose at the end of a sentence is common. E.g. ... r jnt aqw "... to get food" (here with object). I suspect the key lies in the meaning and in the dependency between sbA and r, not in the word order. Mark-Jan ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2010 15:00:57 +0100 Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep--convenient paper copy work sheets From: Mark-Jan Nederhof To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Hi Bob, I don't know the cause of the problems in Scribd (in my browser it doesn't work either), but did you know I have specialised software for this kind of thing? It can also produce PDF that is very similar in nature to what you have. With my own (so far unfinished) translation, an example is: http://www.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/~mjn/ptahhotep/text.pdf (And you don't have to register to get it, unlike Scribd.) Furthermore, anyone can add their own translation, allowing footnotes, etc., with the software at: http://www.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/~mjn/ptahhotep/ The hieroglyphic (originally from Bob Myers; once more thanks for this) has been meticulously corrected, checked and double checked against Zaba's transcription. Apart from scans of the latter, this may currently be the most reliable transcription available on-line. Mark-Jan ==============================================================================