Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:31:43 BST
From: Stephen J Clark <Stephen.Clark@brunel.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: AEL grammar book for intermediates
To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>


On Sat, 25 Apr 1998 23:39:18 -0700 Stephen Fryer wrote:

<snip>

> Sylvain & Julie wrote:
> 
> > I'm about to purchase the following book:
> > 
> > Alan Gardiner's "Egyptian Grammar"
> 
> > Is there a critic amoungst you?  Does anyone have a suggestion?  I'm
> > looking for a fairly detailed book on or including grammar.
> 
> I'd recommend against getting Gardiner.  It is just too out-of-date.  It 
was
> originally written in 1927, and in spite of new editions in 1949 and 
1956,
> nothing substantive has been changed since then.  (Comparing it with a 
book
> written in 1926 and never revised makes this plain.)  Much has been 
learned
> about Egyptian grammar since then.
> 
> I would recommend James Hoch's _Middle Egyptian Grmmar_, which is 
reasonably
> up-to-date, and covers the full range of Egyptian Grammar.  It conatins
> exercises (for some of which answers are available), and reading passages
> (including pretty much the whole of the Story of the Shipwrecked Sailor 
as an
> on-going project).

<snip>

Don't discount Gardiner.

It is still a useful book and more important it is MUCH easier to get hold 
of than Hoch.  I have never been able to find a copy of Hoch in the UK.  
Moreover, I suspect it would be very expensive on import - at least twice 
the cost of Gardiner.

Gardiner contains a good deal that is useful to the beginner and only runs 
into problems when dealing with some of the verbal constructions. However, 
its worth remembering that Gardiner was a grammarian and much of his 
technical jargon will be difficult for a modern reader to understand. 

My advice is use whichever is cheapest and easiest to obtain - any book is 
better than none (even Budge - just). 

Looking forward to seeing Mark Collier's new book.


Steve Clark

==============================================================================

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:04:31 +0200
From: Marti Blesa <marti@grn.es>
To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk
Subject: AEL Roman emperors and Egypt

Hello

This is my first post to the list althought I've been a subscriber since
the beginning. I'm writting a paper on roman emperors and their
relationship with Egypt and I need to know which were their names in
Egypt, mainly how was Hadrian called. If anyone could send it to me I'd
be pleased. If possible could you send them to me in WinGlyph format
(I've got the demo) or in Manual de Codage format. I mainly need the
cartouche from Hadrian.
I need help also in the name of the god Serapis (or Sarapis), I've read
that it can come from a Mesopotamian god or the mixture of Osiris and
Apis, any help with this?
I'm writting a paper on the Serapeum of Villa Adriana in Tripoli for May
4th (I know it's too close but the course was full and I didn't get
access till last week) so I'd be pleased if anyone could help me
off-topic, out of the list in order not to disturb. I'm studying the
relationship between Egyptian and Roman art based in the example of that
Serapeum. It's a paper for a Roman Art subject but as an Egyptologist
I've choosen an Egypt-related theme.

Thanks very much in advance

Marti Blesa


==============================================================================

From: Nubkhas <Nubkhas@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:24:34 EDT
To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: AEL word exist?

In a message dated 98-04-28 13:50:38 EDT, you write:

<< 
 Hi guys,
 
 I have an odd question: was there ever such a word as 'sexy' in AEL?
 
 Cheers,
 Michael.
 
 PS: Frankie, I love you so much.
  >>

Holy Cats!  I think there is such a word.  It would be included in the "Maxims
of 
Ani" where it reads: (warning of foreign women):  "Be on thy guard against a
woman from abroad, who is not known in her own town.  Do not stare at her when
she passes by.  Do not know her carnally:  a deep water, whose windings one
knows not, a woman who is far from her husband.  'I am sleek', she says to
thee every day."
(For "sleek" read "sexy".)  I will try to find the text and determine just
what the
Egyptian word is here.

Marianne Luban
==============================================================================

From: Michael Tilgner <mtilgner@baan.nl>
To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
Subject: AEL AW: AEL word exist?
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 23:05:26 +0200

Dear Michael,

tough question, indeed! My guess: nDm

Rainer Hannig, Grosses Handwoerterbuch Aegyptisch-Deutsch (2800-950 v.
Chr.), Mainz, 1995, p. 449:

	M29-m, n:D-M29-m-..:Y1
	nDm
	(1) to be sweet (general);
	(2) sweet (taste),
	    pleasant (in smell, voice, speech, song, life, way, age),
	    _attractive (body)_ ...;
	(3) ... -
	(9) ...

Does anybody have a better idea?

Best wishes,
Michael Tilgner
mtilgner@baan.nl

> -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
> Von:	mikeyb [SMTP:mikeyb@global.co.za]
> Gesendet am:	Dienstag, 28. April 1998 06:04
> An:	Ancient Egyptian Language List
> Betreff:	AEL word exist?
>=20
> Hi guys,
>=20
> I have an odd question: was there ever such a word as 'sexy' in AEL?
>=20
> Cheers,
> Michael.
>=20
> PS: Frankie, I love you so much.
==============================================================================

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 23:20:11 +0200
From: Frank <biker.spitz@okay.net>
To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: AEL grammar book for intermediates

although it's not an english written publication you should try to read:
Wolfgang Schenkel, Tbinger Einfhrung in die klassisch-gyptische
Sprache und Schrift. (Introduction to classical-egyptian language &
writing); published 1997 at Tbingen.
One of, if not THE, most recent publication dealing with middle
egyptian grammar.
nevertheless, Gardiner's grammar is the standard grammar even nowadays;
of course with a number of corrections and completions - after the time
of some 70 years.


==============================================================================

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 23:27:19 +0200
From: Frank <biker.spitz@okay.net>
To: Aancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
Subject: AEL story of the eloquent peasant

is there anybody who can send me a transcription of the above mentioned
story?
thanks.


==============================================================================

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 23:00:37 +0200
From: Frank <biker.spitz@okay.net>
To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: AEL Roman emperors and Egypt

I advise you to look for the book titled "HANDBUCH DER GYPTISCHEN
KNIGSNAMEN" written by JRGEN VON BECKERATH and published by Deutscher
Kunstverlag Mnchen 1984, page 302.(not only for the name of this king)
beckerath lists thirteen (!) names of Hadrian written in cartouches.
unfortunately, I can't send you a hieroglyphic writing. if needed I
could send you a transcription with letters/numbers according to the
standard grammar by Gardiner, completed by a transliteration.


==============================================================================

From: Michael Tilgner <mtilgner@baan.nl>
To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
Subject: AEL AW: AEL word exist? insulting words?
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:32:17 +0200

Dear Francesca,

invectives are often obscene. The obscene vocabulary has been ignored =
for a
long time by egyptologists because these words are also tabooed =
nowadays.
Despite an entry "Schimpfwoerter" (invectives) in the "Lexikon der
Aegyptologie", Vol. V, col. 634-638, there isn't much progress to =
report.

The author of that entry (Lothar Stoerk) argued that the corresponding
language level should be used for translation, i.e. that an obscene =
Egyptian
word should have an obscene English equivalent and not a Latin one, =
which is
used generally by egyptologists. In addition, he showed that some =
insulting
texts were translated hiding the original obscene meaning.

Indeed, the Egyptian ideal of behaviour was against sHwr (to abuse, to
slander, to scold, to blame) and Snt (to dispute, to quarrel, to =
blaspheme,
to insult). There are many texts like n Snt=3Di Aa r=3Di (I did not =
insult
anybody more important than me) etc. But, however, in any language =
there is
a set of vulgar and obscene words used for insulting others.

The following words are from Rainer Hannig, Grosses Handwoerterbuch
Aegyptisch-Deutsch (2800-950 v. Chr.), Mainz, 1995.

aA (1) ass (animal) (2) [invective] ass
art (1) anus (2) [invective] asshole
iHs [vulgar] shit (=3D a worthless, offensive, or detestable person) =
from Hs
excrement
mHsHs [invective] shit, one who is defecated, from Hs excrement (common
construction of Egyptian word with m- and duplication of stem)
nk to fuck, nk rA=3Df his mouth speaks obscenely, nk sw aA, nk aA =
Hmt=3Ds an ass
shall fuck him, an ass shall fuck his wife
nkw (1) adulterer (2) [invective] idiot, adulterer, one who is going to
whores
Hm [invective] coward, castrate
sxti castrate, eunuch
kAt (1) vulva (2) whore, a shameless woman, kAt tAHwt shameless hussy!

Stoerk cites the following example for a probably misguiding =
translation:
Pyr 1273 "If Nephthys comes with this her evil coming, let there be =
said to
her this her name 'Imitation woman who has no vagina'. 'Go to the =
Mansions
of Selqet, to that place where you were beaten (on) your =
hinder-parts!'"
(Faulkner)
Stoerk believes that the context and wording needs a sexual =
interpretation
of the last sentence.

In addition, it should be noted from this example that also gods and
goddesses could be insulted.

There were also invectives for foreign peoples.

Nothing is known of obscene or insulting gestures.

Best wishes,
Michael Tilgner
mtilgner@baan.nl

==============================================================================

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 19:26:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Graham <geoffrey.graham@yale.edu>
To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: AEL word exist?

Dear Marianne,

>  I have an odd question: was there ever such a word as 'sexy' in AEL?

> Holy Cats!  I think there is such a word.  It would be included in the "Maxims
> of 
> Ani" where it reads: (warning of foreign women):  "Be on thy guard against a
> woman from abroad, who is not known in her own town.  Do not stare at her when
> she passes by.  Do not know her carnally:  a deep water, whose windings one
> knows not, a woman who is far from her husband.  'I am sleek', she says to
> thee every day."
> (For "sleek" read "sexy".)  I will try to find the text and determine just
> what the
> Egyptian word is here.

I just read this text this semester.  The word is n`j, which is usually
taken to mean "smooth/polished/pleasant".

Yours, Geoff
sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu

==============================================================================

From: Michael Tilgner <mtilgner@baan.nl>
To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
Subject: AEL AW: AEL Roman emperors and Egypt
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:38:10 +0200

Dear Marti,

(1) Name of Hadrian

See Juergen von Beckerath, Handbuch der aegyptischen Koenigsnamen, =
Muenchen,
Berlin, 1984, p. 302

There is a list of 13 writings: Traianos Adrianos (4), Adrianos (8),
Hadrianus Caesar (1) - with different epithets.

If you have the Winglyph 1.2 demo then you can find the hierogylphic
writings in the menu "Extras" list of kings Gr-Rom, name no. 245-257. =
The
other names of the Roman emperors are also there.

(2) Name of Serapis/Sarapis

Lexikon der Aegyptologie, Vol. V, col. 870-874, entry "Serapis":

Serapis is younger form of Sarapis and corresponds to wsir-Hp =
(Osiris-Apis).

Wsjr-Hp is a special Memphite form of Osiris and can be found in a =
temple of
Nektanebos II ("Serapeum"). Under Ptolemaios I this cult was brought to
Alexandria and "hellenized", probably to provide a common god for the
Egyptian and Greek people. It became a city god of Alexandria.

I could not find any reference to Mesopotamia.

Much luck,
Michael Tilgner
mtilgner@baan.nl

	 -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
	Von:	Marti Blesa [SMTP:marti@grn.es]
	Gesendet am:	Montag, 27. April 1998 22:05
	An:	AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk
	Betreff:	AEL Roman emperors and Egypt

	Hello

	This is my first post to the list althought I've been a subscriber
since
	the beginning. I'm writting a paper on roman emperors and their
	relationship with Egypt and I need to know which were their names in
	Egypt, mainly how was Hadrian called. If anyone could send it to me
I'd
	be pleased. If possible could you send them to me in WinGlyph format
	(I've got the demo) or in Manual de Codage format. I mainly need the
	cartouche from Hadrian.
	I need help also in the name of the god Serapis (or Sarapis), I've
read
	that it can come from a Mesopotamian god or the mixture of Osiris
and
	Apis, any help with this?
	I'm writting a paper on the Serapeum of Villa Adriana in Tripoli for
May
	4th (I know it's too close but the course was full and I didn't get
	access till last week) so I'd be pleased if anyone could help me
	off-topic, out of the list in order not to disturb. I'm studying the
	relationship between Egyptian and Roman art based in the example of
that
	Serapeum. It's a paper for a Roman Art subject but as an
Egyptologist
	I've choosen an Egypt-related theme.

	Thanks very much in advance

	Marti Blesa


==============================================================================

From: Nubkhas <Nubkhas@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 08:24:43 EDT
To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: AEL word exist?

In a message dated 98-04-29 03:32:37 EDT, you write:

<< 
 > Holy Cats!  I think there is such a word.  It would be included in the
"Maxims
 > of 
 > Ani" where it reads: (warning of foreign women):  "Be on thy guard against
a
 > woman from abroad, who is not known in her own town.  Do not stare at her
when
 > she passes by.  Do not know her carnally:  a deep water, whose windings one
 > knows not, a woman who is far from her husband.  'I am sleek', she says to
 > thee every day."
 > (For "sleek" read "sexy".)  I will try to find the text and determine just
 > what the
 > Egyptian word is here.
 
 I just read this text this semester.  The word is n`j, which is usually
 taken to mean "smooth/polished/pleasant".
  >>

Thank you.  I guess that's as close to "sexy" as it gets, and seems to
correspond with what the other poster suggested--"nDm".

Marianne Luban
==============================================================================

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:37:32 -0400 ()
From: Robyn Adams Gillam <gillam@YorkU.CA>
To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: AEL story of the eloquent peasant

The most readily available would be an incomplete version in de Buck's
Reading Book.  I believe the basic publication was by Volten. 

Best Wishes, 

Robyn Gillam
Classical Studies
York University
Toronto, CANADA



On Tue, 28 Apr 1998, Frank wrote:

> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 23:27:19 +0200
> From: Frank <biker.spitz@okay.net>
> Reply-To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
> To: Aancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
> Subject: AEL story of the eloquent peasant
> 
> is there anybody who can send me a transcription of the above mentioned
> story?
> thanks.
> 
> 

==============================================================================

From: Abu Elisha <AbuElisha@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 10:32:55 EDT
To: geoffrey.graham@yale.edu, owner-AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk,
        AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk
Subject: AEL Getting Started in Egyptology

Greetings all.

I'm new to Egyptology, and there's nothing going on in the Central California
Valley.  My background is in Linguistics.  Can anyone suggest a good
foundational text?  Perhaps a straightforward, do-it-yourself guide to
hieroglyphs?  I would be sincerely grateful for any input.

Michael Akard
Modesto, California


==============================================================================

From: Aayko Eyma <ayma@tip.nl>
To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
Subject: AEL AW: AEL Roman emperors and Egypt
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:43:43 +-200

Dear Marti,

>how was Hadrian called. If anyone could send it to me I'd
be pleased. If possible could you send them to me in WinGlyph format
(I've got the demo) or in Manual de Codage format. I mainly need the
cartouche from Hadrian.


****Stephen Quirke's booklet has his cartouche,
but it's just...the plain one with Hadrian. (Only of Domitian he lists
a real fancy Egyptian name).
The cartouche looks like this:

    O4   D21   N35   N29     
(                            O34    )|
    X1    D36   O34   D21

shelter-bread+mouth-arm+wave-bolt+slope-bolt-mouth

h   r    n   q
              z
t    a   z   r 

= htr'nz - qzr 
= Hadrianus Caesar

>I need help also in the name of the god Serapis (or Sarapis), I've read
that it can come from a Mesopotamian god or the mixture of Osiris and
Apis, any help with this?

**Not Mesopotamia, I think. I've read that Ptolemy Lagi 
fetched a statue of this god from Sinope [would be Greek colony in
Asia Minor] to Alexandria; at first this was resented by the Egyptians, 
but later because of linking the Apis worship with this new god, he 
became the prime god of Alexandria and soon of whole of Ptolemaic Egypt.

So apparantly Serapis=Osiris-Apis was a popular etymology,
not a real one?  

Cf. Baines and Malek, 'Atlas', about the burrial place of the Apis
bulls (my translation from Dutch):
"The name, the Serapeum, is derived from Usir-Hapi,
i.e. "the deceased Apis-bull", in Greek: Osorapis, LATER identified
with the ARTIFICIALLY CREATED god Sarapis of the Ptolemeans."

Artificial because he got Greek and Egyptian attributes. I've
seen a picture of him where he has the hellhound Cerberus
at his feet, which would fit what Diodorus Siculus, the Roman
historian, says:
"some say that Sarapis is the god whom the Greeks call Pluto"
(so that would mean god of the dead/netherworld - Osiris)

>I'm writting a paper on the Serapeum of Villa Adriana in Tripoli 

Good luck!

Aayko Eyma


==============================================================================

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:36:13 +0200
From: Marti Blesa <marti@grn.es>
To: ael <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
Subject: AEL Egyptian wordprocessing & Egyptian names

Hello again

Thank you very much to all that helped me with my search for the name of
the Roman emperors in Ancient Egyptian.
I've got another question that it's a bit off-list (sorry again, I'm
very ashamed but I don't know who could I ask better than you).
I've got the excellent Sech Nesou from Serge's Rosmorduc but I don't
know how to install it properly under MikTek 1.10, if anyone in the list
is using it I'd be greatly pleased as I have no idea how to do it. If
anyone uses it with another Latex package I could try to use it that
way. I need a lot to be able to write in hyeroglyphs but till know all I
can do is use the fonts of the CCER and "fight" a bit with MS Word 97 in
order to properly put signs in their places, changing the distance
between letters, rising some of them and so in order to write signs on
top of others and the result is not very good.
Now a question that is related to the list. I'm trying to learn
hieroglyphs on my own, and I'm enjoying it a lot. I'm improving quite a
lot using the only books I have (Gardiner's and an old Egyptian Grammar
written by Eduardo Alfonso y Hernan in Spanish which isn't quite good).
I'm currently studying History and I plan to do a doctorate in
Egyptology. As there is no Egypt related subject in my university I have
to learn on my own. There's one thing that I cannot understand well, how
to read king's names inside the cartouches. I thought I had to read them
from the side opposite to the knot to the knot but sometimes the order
is reversed (like Nebkheprure) or some signs seem to be read first than
others. I know it must be a silly question to the people who already
know well hieroglyphs but it puzzles me a lot and Gardiner's doesn't
help much.

Thanks in advance.

Marti Blesa


==============================================================================

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:36:49 -0700
From: Kasia & Malcolm Jarrett <kasia@HUMnet.UCLA.EDU>
To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: AEL story of the eloquent peasant

Hi!

How about Parkinson, R. B., ed. 1991. The Tale of the Eloquent Peasant.
Oxford: Griffith Institute, Ashmolean Museum.  It's probably availabe through
Amazon.com. I got it through Eisenbraun's. It is complete with concordances of
all the manuscripts.

--Kasia Szpakowska

> 
> On Tue, 28 Apr 1998, Frank wrote:
> 
> > Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 23:27:19 +0200
> > From: Frank <biker.spitz@okay.net>
> > Reply-To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
> > To: Aancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
> > Subject: AEL story of the eloquent peasant
> >
> > is there anybody who can send me a transcription of the above mentioned
> > story?
> > thanks.
> >
> >
==============================================================================

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 22:45:04 +0200
From: Marti Blesa <marti@grn.es>
To: ael <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
Subject: AEL Emperor names (Late Egyptian constructions?)

Hello dear members

It's me again (sorry!). I've been trying to transcribe and translate
Hadrian names from the list in WinGlyph without succeeding. I wonder if
it's because it's Late Egyptian or if it's my fault as a novice in
Egyptian. I haven't got a proper dictionary so I must use Gardiner's
vocabulary. I've only managed to read the name 3dryns that I think must
be Hadrian. For example the second name begins with s3 r< (son of Re) tr
inw ? i.... The ? is the egg symbol that I don't know how to transcribe.
The same group appears in the first inscription with small changes tr
ynw ?...
Any help will be welcome as I find myself completely lost. I'm planning
to buy Faulkner's dictionary but I don't know if it'll help me for Late
Egyptian. Anyway I prefer Middle Egyptian, but now I need to translate
this for my paper at the university.

Thanks again

Marti Blesa


==============================================================================

Date:	Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:22:36 -0400
From:	James_Hoch@mail.campuslife.utoronto.ca (James Hoch)
Subject: AEL Ordering Hoch's Grammar (long)
To:	AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk

Hello all,

There has been some interest in how to order my book on the AEL list, so I
thought it best to update (if you are not interested in these details, please
delete NOW).  Things have changed somewhat since I first put the book out and
since I first put announcements on the internet.  It is easily ordered through
me by e-mail, or by standard mail to the publisher.  It is also available
through several bookhandlers, Eisenbraun's, for instance.  It has not been
promoted to booksellers more generally since it is still in "pre-production"
form.  As a concerned author (this was not written for the big bucks), I would
sincerely appreciate any comments and criticisms that you have.  I hope to
incorporate your suggestions into my "production" volume.  Here is my standard
reply to queries:

My book on Egyptian grammar--although not entirely finished--has been
published as volume 15 of the series SSEA Publications.  (SSEA = Society for
the Study of Egyptian Antiquities) You may order through me via e-mail,
regular mail, or through the Society (addresses, below). Shipment is by
surface mail (by ship).  I also attach (at the end of the message) a
description.

The price is: 1 copy $50 (U.S.)                      
                      5 or more copies--40% discount

Addresses:

james_hoch@campuslife.utoronto.ca  (I can pass orders on to Benben)

Benben Publications/SSEA Publications
1483 Carmen Drive
Mississauga, Ontario  L5G 3Z2
Canada

Best wishes,
James Hoch

****************************************************************



Middle Egyptian Grammar (ISBN 0-920168-12-4) by James E. Hoch:

Length 385 pp. + xx; proposed final length: ca 500 pp. including appendices
(NOW SOMEWHAT REDUCED IN PAGE LENGTH [but not reduced in content] TO KEEP IT
LIGHTER), index of grammatical matters, glossary of Egyptian vocabulary, and
it will contain a sign list in the August 1998 version. The current version
contains an index, key to about 1/2 of the exercises, and an Egyptian-English
vocabulary list. The book is Volume 15 of SSEA Publications and the
co-publisher is Benben Publications.

The book is a teaching grammar (not a theoretical or reference grammar,
although it contains advanced level grammar and makes use of up-to-date
theoretical approaches).  It contains 16 lessons. Each lesson has a thorough
exercise with translation and parsing sections. Later translations and
exercises contain fairly extended passages. Reading passages from original
texts begin in lesson 7 (a poem of a man contemplating death / suicide from
the "Dispute between a man and his ba". The (virtually) complete text of the
"Shipwrecked Sailor" appears in serial form (with suitable cliff-hangers) in
the remainder of the reading passages. The exercises are difficult, but
interesting from the point of view of Egyptian culture, education, religion,
history, medicine, and literature.

The theoretical approach is "Standard Theory" with some innovations. The
examples  are mostly in complete sentences (not just phrases and sentence
fragments) and occasionally consist of short passages to provide grammatical
and semantic context (and review).  The book starts from the beginning steps
and takes students to advanced levels of grammar.  It is, however, an academic
grammar book, and not a handbook to introduce one to the script.  It is used
in many major universities in North America, as well as in Australia, New
Zealand, Czech Republic, Japan, etc. (See
http://www.utoronto.ca/gsunion/hoch/institutions.html for details on
institutions using it for university level instruction.)

The publisher has set the following prices:

US & overseas orders: $50 (US)
Canadian orders: $60 (Canadian)

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==============================================================================

From: Michael Tilgner <mtilgner@baan.nl>
To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
Subject: AEL AW: AEL Emperor names (Late Egyptian constructions?)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:00:38 +0200

Dear Marti,

as far as I know, this is the Egyptian kind of writing foreign names in
hieroglyphs. It has nothing to do with Late Egyptian. It's the same =
with the
Japanese or Chinese writing systems; these peoples also have to find
approximate sound combinations, which cannot be translated in a =
meaningful
sense. Therefore egyptologists use always the Latin or Greek name when
translating Egyptian hieroglyphic texts with these names.

You can get the hieroglyphs by using WinGlyph. For example the first
Egyptian name of Hadrian is

	G39&N5-<1-t:r-i-i-W24:H8-W10:t-R-D4:W24*z-S34-D&t&N17-C9A-N36-2>

so you get all the signs.

The readings are in general [y =3D M17a =3D M17-M17 =3D i-i]:

	Hadrian =3D	Atryns
	Traian =3D		tryns
	Caesar =3D	kisrs

The epithets are

	sA ra "son of Re"
	anx Dt "living forever", "he may live forever"
	mri Ast "loved by Isis", "beloved of Isis"
	nti xw "who is a noble one"

So I would translate the example above

sA ra tryns Atryns anx Dt mry Ast "son of Re Traianos Adrianos, he may =
live
forever, beloved of Isis".=20

It seems that sA ra was added by the WinGlyph people; the original has =
in a
cartouche Awtkrtr kysrs "Autocrator Caesar" before this name, as cited =
by
the book below, p. 59. But I don't know whether before these signs =
there is
a sA ra.

More information can be found in:

Jean-Claude Grenier, "Les titulatures des empereurs romains dans les
documents en langue e=B4gyptienne", Fondation E=B4gyptologique Reine =
E=B4lizabeth,
Bruxelles, 1989 (Papyrologica Bruxellensia, 22)

Much luck,
Michael Tilgner
mtilgner@baan.nl

> -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
> Von:	Marti Blesa [SMTP:marti@grn.es]
> Gesendet am:	Mittwoch, 29. April 1998 21:45
> An:	ael
> Betreff:	AEL Emperor names (Late Egyptian constructions?)
>=20
> Hello dear members
>=20
> It's me again (sorry!). I've been trying to transcribe and translate
> Hadrian names from the list in WinGlyph without succeeding. I wonder =
if
> it's because it's Late Egyptian or if it's my fault as a novice in
> Egyptian. I haven't got a proper dictionary so I must use Gardiner's
> vocabulary. I've only managed to read the name 3dryns that I think =
must
> be Hadrian. For example the second name begins with s3 r< (son of Re) =
tr
> inw ? i.... The ? is the egg symbol that I don't know how to =
transcribe.
> The same group appears in the first inscription with small changes tr
> ynw ?...
> Any help will be welcome as I find myself completely lost. I'm =
planning
> to buy Faulkner's dictionary but I don't know if it'll help me for =
Late
> Egyptian. Anyway I prefer Middle Egyptian, but now I need to =
translate
> this for my paper at the university.
>=20
> Thanks again
>=20
> Marti Blesa
>=20
==============================================================================

Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 08:22:26 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Greg Davidson from Math Computer Lab (RLM 8.136)" <greg@math.utexas.edu>
To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
Subject: AEL books

Can someone suggest a text on Old Egyptian and/or Hieratic (or at least
one that deals with it)?  I have looked long and hard (on the Web) and
have yet to see a book on either topic.

Greg Davidson
greg@math.utexas.edu

==============================================================================

From: Aayko Eyma <ayma@tip.nl>
To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
Subject: AEL AW: AEL Emperor names (Late Egyptian constructions?)
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 20:28:55 +-200


Dear Marti,
I see your problems - and I hope someone else will solve them :)
I'm not familiar with glyphs in Greek-Roman times at all, which 
does not stop me from puzzling along, in the hope someone will 
want to fill in the blanks below and check my guesses.

The only piece about glyphs in this period I have is from
Baines and Malek (Atlas):
1- they say the 'lips' are a form of the 'mouth', so _r_. Good for us!
2- from the text they give I would deduce that the jar, _nw_,
now renders plain _n_. Is in our Hadrain too!
3- they say the 'hand', _d_, now got value _t_; I will give
it below as _d/t_.

Other signs that give us problems are the  'egg' H8,  and 
the bowl W10. 

My guess would be, that principle 2 also goes for most other signs.
For from the Hadrian names below, I would tentatively deduce:
- the 'egg' was used for _s_, being derived from _s3_ (which was what the
sign could express in the old days) (the egg was/is also a det. in
names of goddesses)  
- the 'eye' was used for _j_, being derived from normal _jr_
- the 'red crown' was used for _n_, being from normal _n.t_
- the W10 bowl would be _j_, being derived from normal _ j'b_. 
- the lion _rw_ is now _r_, the tent-post O29  _'3_ is _'_, sun _r'_ is _r_, 
land _t3_ is _t_, and fire-drill U28, normally being _D3_, is now _D/d_.
These hypothetical 'short' forms (cryptography) I have indicated in the
transcriptions below with an *.

Further deductions:
- the kheper beatle would be something like _d/t_  at this time??
- the chnum/ba ram would be something like _s/z_ at this time??
and fairly certain:
- the 'reed' at the start can function as glottal stop (as of old);
indicated below with [j].

An other problem is that no. 1-4 have a double name; 
the first name rather being Traianus than Hadrianus. However,
to my knowledge the full name of Hadrian was Publius Aelius Hadrianus,
so I wonder. Perhaps he took on the name of his predecessor
for a while??

Can anyone confirm all the above? :)
And the ventures below?

Sorry for the wild speculations - but this
is a beginner's learning list after all :)

Below the 13 Hadrians dissected, for those not yet hiding under
their desk.

best wishes,
Aayko Eyma 


Line numbers are the Hadrian cartouches in WinGlyph.
{} indicates Gardiner glyph, or unknown glyph

1)  t.r.y.n*.s*.j*.t.r. j*.n*.z.'nx.D.t.{#2}.{#3}.mr(j)

#2 = cannot read that in the demo; but surely N17. For 
this group (snake-bread-land) is the wellknown 
"forever"/"eternity"). So together: may he live forever, or the like
#3 = goddess; seems  Hw.t-Hr to me.
Surely the z was s by now, but for the transcription
difference I let it stand.

treyenes-[j*]etreienez - May he live forever, Beloved of Hathor 

2) t.r.j.n*.s*.j.j*.t.r.y.n*.s*.'nx.D.t.{#2}

trienes-[j]etreyenes - May he live forever!
                           
3) d/t.r.j*.y.n.z.3.d/t.r.y.n.z

d/triyenez-[3]ed/treyenez

4) {#1}.r.j*.y.n.z.3.d/t.r.y.n.z

?-riyenez- [3]edreyenez

#1 = kheper-beetle; must be a phoneme here?
Logically a _d/'t_.
You see what a good idea it was of the writer
to spell the name a second time? :)

5) j.t.y.r.j.n*.j.z.n*.t.x(w).{D43}

[j]eteyriniz- he who protects(?)

_n*.t_ has no goddess det.; so it is not Nut,
also because in (9) it is spelled _nty_, "who, which".
I'm not sure about the protect part.

6) j.t.r.j*.n.z.'nx.D.t.{#2}.st.mr(j)

[j]etrienez - May he live forever! Beloved of Isis

Hurrying through the second half:

7) j.t.r.j. n* .j. {#5}.n*.t.x(w).{D43}
    
    {#5} I presume the ram b3/Chnum
     must indicate a _s/z_?
  
[j]etrieni-? + etc.

No ending s, unless the ram functions as such.

8) 3.t.r*.j.n*.z.n*.t.x(w).{D43}

[3]etrienez + etc.

9) ' *.{#7}.r*.' *.n. {#5}.n.t.y.x(w).{D43}
    #7 = looks like a fancy variant of N16, so likely _t*_ from _t3_ 
    the N6 (sun N5 with uraeus) is just _r' _(occures pre-Greek), so _r*_.

[']etre'en-? + etc

the ajin  ' for the i-a stop/passage we also see below.

10) {#4}.{#1}.r.y.n*.s.n*.t.x(w).{D43}
          #4= winged solar disk; no fonetic value?
             or an alef kind of thing.

?-?-reyenes + etc.

11) {#4}.{#1}.r*.y.{#5}.x(w).{D43}

?-?-reye-? + etc.

No n in sight! Must be a writing error

12) {#4}.D/d.r*.{#6}.' *.n.z.n*.t.x(w).{D43}
        #6 = cannot see that one in the demo; 
          likely just an id. stroke?

?-edj/dre'enez + etc.

13) this is he plain&sane one I mentioned 
in previous post ;) 
h.t.r.'.n.z.q.z.r.
hetre'enez - qezer
Hadrianus Caesar

I think you basically would need confirmation of the
chnum ram and the cheper beetle; the rest could be put down
in your paper as a fairly good bluff.... :P....not much choise with
a deadline like yours...? :)

Aayko 
just having fun

PS:
Note the ram and beetle in the names
of Domitian, Trajanus and Severus. Also
there the ram at the end for -s, and the beetle
for d/t- at the beginning. 
Baines and Malek mention some signs
that got totally different values in the Greek-Roman
period:
G6/5 = bjk --> p
N37 = S -->n
G25 = 3x  -->t'
So the principle is there.


==============================================================================

From: "Mark Vygus" <nsw-bit@email.msn.com>
To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
Subject: AEL Photographs in Egypt
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 22:04:40 +0100

I am off to Egypt in just over a weeks time and I was wondering whether
anyone knows if you are allowed to use a tripod when taking photos in Karnak
/ Luxor temples etc..
I know they are not allowed in Museums or tombs, but tyhe Temples ?

Its a lot to carry if I cant use it !

Thank you
Mark  nsw-bit@msn.com



==============================================================================

From: Nubkhas <Nubkhas@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 18:13:43 EDT
To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: AEL AW: AEL Emperor names (Late Egyptian constructions?)

In a message dated 98-05-01 17:09:37 EDT, you write:

<< Further deductions:
 - the kheper beatle would be something like _d/t_  at this time??
 - the chnum/ba ram would be something like _s/z_ at this time??
 and fairly certain:
 - the 'reed' at the start can function as glottal stop (as of old);
 indicated below with [j].>>

I have trouble reading your transliteration style and I don't have the
glyphs so can't comment very well.  Are you sure they are not just "xpri" and
Khnum?

 
 >>An other problem is that no. 1-4 have a double name; 
 the first name rather being Traianus than Hadrianus. However,
 to my knowledge the full name of Hadrian was Publius Aelius Hadrianus,
 so I wonder. Perhaps he took on the name of his predecessor
 for a while??>>

It's probably just a matter of "We write them as we hear them".  "Trajan" was
not pronounced with a "j".  That is just Anglicized Latin.  As for
"Hadrianus"--perhaps by then they were already dropping "h's" in the Italian
style. Certainly, Italian names don't use it.  "Humbert"= "Umberto", "Hadrian=
"Adriano".
In one cartouche I see "3trinws nxt" and, in another, "3wtwkrtr kysers titis
<lys
3trynws"

 
Marianne Luban
==============================================================================

Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 15:39:47 -0700
From: Ron Fellows <rfellows@abac.com>
To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: AEL Photographs in Egypt

Mark:

You are right about the tombs and museums, however, you can take a
camera into the Cairo Museum if you do NOT use a flash. I was there in
January and the Museum fee was either EL 10 or $10 (don't remember
which). The museum is so dark that not much comes out without a flash
even with 800 film.

If the Cairo is not too crouded, you will be approached by the "guards"
to photograph with "full flash" for a little baksheesh.

I'm not sure about a tripod in Karnak and Luxor Temples, but they are
soooo big I doubt it would be in the way of tourists. BTW, take plenty
of film, I took 500 photos in Egypt.  There is something wonderful
wherever you point your camera. Have a great trip!!!
Ron Fellows, CM, Editor, The Glyph
==============================================================================

Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 23:13:05 +0100
To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
From: maria and les <maria@anubis.abel.co.uk>
Subject: AEL Hieroglyphic Workshop/Mark Collier

Recently there was talk on the book by Mark Collier " How to read Egyptian
Hieroglyphs"
I am going to a Workshop that is being run by him and Bill Manley on May
12th, this is being held in Cambridge U.K.
If there are any questions that anyone would like put to him I would be
happy to relay them, and of course get what answers I can!!
He will also be signing copies of his book.
Best Wishes
Maria
Maria & Les Goodman
Akh-anubis Ibizan Hounds  Pharaoh Hounds & Sloughis
Sylphlyke Greyhounds & Whippets
Breeders & Exhibitors of quality hounds.
htttp//:www.abel.net.uk/~anubis
==============================================================================

Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 19:49:58 -0700
From: Al Berens <djoser@pacbell.net>
To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: AEL Photographs in Egypt

You can use a tripod for a hefty fee. They think anyone using a tripod
must be a professional who plans to sell his photos.

I tried using a monopod, but they are wise to that too. Someone
suggested a cane with a tripod attachment on it. A couple of travel
clothing companies sell them.

For photographing in the tombs (KV etc.) I have been using either Fuji
800 for prints or Kodak 1600 Professional slide film (it can be set to
any speed). 

I'm off myself the first two weeks in June.

Good hunting.

Al Berens
ARCE/NC
djoser@pacbell.net
==============================================================================

From: Nubkhas <Nubkhas@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 09:32:23 EDT
To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk
Subject: AEL Judicial Papyrus of Turin

In my translation of the papyrus that gives an account of the trial
of those participating in the "harem plot" during the reign of Ramesses III,
a certain Pai-bak-kamen (sic) is called "Chief of the Chamber" and, another,
Pa-tjau-emdi-Amon, is called "Agent of the Harem in the Retinue".  There
is also the phrase "the wives of the men of the gate of the harem".  Does
anybody know what the original Egyptian is for the titles and for "gate of
the harem" is?

Marianne Luban
==============================================================================

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 12:09:51 -0400
To: Ancient Egyptian Language List <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
From: Gerald Kadish <kadishg@binghamton.edu>
Subject: Re: AEL books

	The major grammar of Old Egyptian is the 2-volume Altaegyptische Grammatik
of Elmar Edel. vol. I (=Analecta Orientalis, vol. 34) 1955; vol. II (=
Analecta Orientalis, vol. 39) 1964. Eric Doret has written a book on Old
and Middle Egyptian (citation not to hand, I'm afraid).

	Hans Goedicke has published _Old Hieratic Paleography_ (Baltimore: Halgo,
Inc., 1988). The ISBN # is 0-9613805-4-3.

	I hope this will help.  -- Gerry Kadish
Gerald E. Kadish
Professor of History and Near Eastern Studies
Department of History
Binghamton University
Binghamton, NY 13902-6000
(607) 777-2488
e-mail address: kadishg@binghamton.edu

==============================================================================

From: Michael Tilgner <mtilgner@baan.nl>
To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
Subject: AEL AW: AEL Emperor names (Late Egyptian constructions?)
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 19:42:30 +0200 

Dear Marti,

again about the Egyptian writings of Hadrian.

Juergen von Beckerath, "Handbuch der aegyptischen Koenigsnamen",
Muenchen/Berlin, 1984 (Muenchner Aegyptologische Studien, 20)

Hieroglyphic writings, p. 302 (also used in WinGlyph).

Transcriptions, p. 126:
E1.	Traianos Adrianos anx-Dt mri-Ast
E2.	Traianos Adrianos anx-Dt
E3.	Traianos Adrianos
E4.	Traianos Adrianos
E5.	Adrianos nti xw
E6.	Adrianos anx-Dt mri-Ast
E7. 	Adrianos nti xw
E8	Adrianos nti xw
E9.	Adrianos nti xw
E10.	Adrianos nti xw
E11.	Adrianos nti xw
E12.	Adrianos nti xw
E13.	Hadrianus Caesar

E =3D Eigenname (name of birth)

Roman names are not transcribed (see also Index, p. 156).

Anx-Dt "he may live forever"
Mri-Ast "loved by Isis", "beloved of Isis"
nti xw "who is a noble one"

Jean-Claude Grenier, "Les titulatures des empereurs romains dans les
documents en langue e=B4gyptienne", Bruxelles, 1989 (Papyrologica
Bruxellensia, 22)

Grenier did not take the various graphic representations into account. =
"To
analyse this phenomenon ... is .. a study of its own which cannot have =
a
place in the frame which we set us here for ourself." (p. 5)

He used the following transcriptions, pp. 100-101, without giving any
indication how he derived them:

Atrins =3D [Greek start] 'Adriano=B4s [Greek end]
Kisrs =3D [Greek start] Kai~sar [Greek end]
Trins =3D [Greek start] Traiano=B4s [Greek end]

The titulary transcribed in Egyptian reproduced (or are thought to
reproduce) an original written in Greek (p. 6).

[In my earlier posting I was a little confused by  Grenier's =
transcription
scheme.]

Though the Greek and Roman names played an important role for the
decipherment of hieroglyphs, the sound values are not easy to derive, =
as one
has to conclude from this book, which I haven't seen yet myself:

Franc,ois Daumas et al., "Valeurs phone=B4tiques des signes =
hie=B4roglyphiques
d'e=B4poque gre=B4co-romaine", Vol. 1 and 2, Montpellier, 1988 [432 =
p.], Vol. 3,
Montpellier, 1990 [pp. 433-664], Vol. 4, Montpellier, 1995 [pp. =
653?-859]
(Orientalia Monspeliensa, 4)

Therefore, don't worry! You may skip the exact phonetic values in your =
paper
and you will be in a good company of prominent egyptologists!

Now to Aayko's attempt to transcribe the hieroglyphs in Hadrian's =
names.
It's possible to identify the hieroglyphs when pasting the name into =
your
WinGlyph document.

#1 =3D L1, #2 =3D N17, #3 =3D C9A, #4 =3D N58, #5 =3D E11, #6 =3D Z1, =
#7 =3D N16A, {D43} =3D
D237

The following signs belong to the extended list: C9A, D237, N58, N16A

n*.t.x(w).{D43} / n.t.y.x(w).{D43} / x(w).{D43} =3D nt(i)-x(w)-D237 =3D =
nti xw
st.mr(j) =3D mri-Ast (the name of a god/goddess was often put first, =
but must
be read according to grammar)

Best wishes,
Michael Tilgner
mtilgner@baan.nl

==============================================================================

From: Michael Tilgner <mtilgner@baan.nl>
To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
Subject: AEL AW: AEL: word exist?
Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 20:02:01 +0200 

Once again to the question: Is there a word for "sexy"?

See also "Love Songs" in: Miriam Lichtheim, Ancient Egyptian =
Literature,
Vol. II: The New Kingdom, Berkeley/Los Angeles/London, 1976, pp. =
181-193,
where women are praised with wonderful lyrics.

Rainer Hannig, Grosses Handwoerterbuch Aegyptisch-Deutsch (2800-950 v.
Chr.), Mainz, 1995:

bnr (1) sweet (taste) (2) pleasant (smell), well speaking (mouth, =
tongue,
words), beloved, kind (person); _craved for (erotic)_, adored, idolized =
-
bnrt mrwt beloved (woman, goddess), "sweet charm" [...]

nfr (1) [general] good, beautiful, perfect (persons, things, abstracta)
[...] (6) beautiful, pretty (young woman, face, jewellery, sun) nfr si =
r Hmt
nbt ntt m tA pn r-Dr=3Df "she is more beautiful than any woman in this =
whole
country" [...]

Best regards,
Michael Tilgner
mtilgner@baan.nl

> -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
> Von:	mikeyb [SMTP:mikeyb@global.co.za]
> Gesendet am:	Dienstag, 28. April 1998 06:04
> An:	Ancient Egyptian Language List
> Betreff:	AEL word exist?
>=20
> Hi guys,
>=20
> I have an odd question: was there ever such a word as 'sexy' in AEL?
>=20
> Cheers,
> Michael.
>=20
> PS: Frankie, I love you so much.
==============================================================================

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 22:48:58 +1000
To: Ancient Egyptian Language <AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk>
From: Mike Dyall-Smith <m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au>
Subject: AEL Gardiner Ex. chpt 2

I am just resurfacing and am thinking of putting together a web-digest of
the Gardiner exercises. I have found very little in my archives of the list
on the exercises from chapter 2. Was there any discussion of the answers?
Regards, Mike D-S

********************************
Mike Dyall-Smith,
Melbourne, Australia
m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au
********************************


==============================================================================