From: "Anpwhotep" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Date: Sun, 22 Feb 98 21:51:57 -0700 Subject: Re: AEL Narmer palette On Sat, 21 Feb 1998 09:34:46 -0500, Jim & Barb Nordyke/Petersen wrote: >Michael Brass requested info on Narmer Palette. >Question: What is the Narmer Palette? >Question: Where do I look for information about this? >Question: Does this have to do with Aegypt? > The Narmer Pallette is a pallette (cosmetic pallette, that is) that is engraved in commemoration of Narmer's uniting of Upper and Lower Egypt. I'm not sure which museum it's in these days, or where to find more detailed info, although you might check on Greg Reeder's site for pointers, since he's got one of the better selections of Egyptological pointers on the web. Bill - -- inpw-Htp.w, hm nTrw, wab inp.w inpwhtp@ix.netcom.com Hail to you, you having come as Khepri, even Khepri who is creator of the gods. You rise and shine on the back of your mother, having appeared in glory as the King of the gods. Your mother Nut shall use her arms on your behalf in making greeting. ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 13:26:55 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Westcar: an eye for an ir ??? Mike Dyall-Smith 'ecrit : > Westcar, the sentence spanning the 2nd last and last pages: > > I sent off a comment by Antonio Loprieno some time ago and I was > wondering what people thought about his interpretation of the eye sign > (iri) also being used for the initial particle ir (which could be written > as a 'mouth' sign). Is this a possible usage of the eye sign or does this > interpretation mean that there is confusion in the hieratic original, ie. > what is transcribed by de Buck as an eye (the verb, iri) is really just a > mouth ({i}r). > I would like to have somebodies opinion on this please.... The photographs of the papyrus in Blackman are not very clear, but the eye-sign is quite readable. You can mix up a 't', and 'r' in hieratic, but the eye sign is quite distinct from these two. As a result, I doubt about this 'ir' being the particle. In some very late texts, like Amenemope, you find some confusions, but more like 'iw' or 'r' for 'iry', not the contrary, and furthermore, in positions where 'iry' is not the full verb, but a mere auxiliary. e.g. Amenemope (25,15) iry wsr (r) xn=f (m) dHA (Late Egyptian third future) written -r -wsr-r:D40-Y1:Z2 -x:n-nw:W-qmA-G41:Y1-=f -d-HA-A-i-i-t:F37B-Hn-Z3-! However, again, this kind of writtings are quite late, and given a) the date of Westcar b) the rather good quality of the text in general, I think our 'ir' is definitly the verb 'to make'. regards, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) 66, rue Alexandre Dumas 75011 Paris tel 01 48 70 37 09 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: CatGuy@lamg.com Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 00:12:16 -0800 Subject: Re: AEL books for learning ancient Egyptian lan On 2/22/98 at 12:59 PM, Ancient Egyptian Language List wrote: AELL> This is not the Osirislist, Milo, are you perhaps posting in the wrong AELL> place? ;) Oops! Right place, wrong title -- somehow got my ancient Egyptian lists confused. --Milo (CatGuy@lamg.com) -- Bast and Tameran witchcraft site at: or ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 13:04:55 +0000 Subject: AEL Sinuhe Forwarded on behalf of Suzie Lutz, who is as of today, a member of the list. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: "Tibs" To: Subject: Sinuhe Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 00:58:26 -0500 Hello! I was told that you might be able to help me. I'm really interested in "The Story of Sinuhe" and I'm currently translating it for my second year hieroglyphics class, and I'm also doing a research/analysis on the story for a History of Egypt class. The problem is our school libary doesn't have much in the lines of good information on Egypt so I was wondering if you could recomend some good sources either books or web pages. So far all I have is an article titled 'The Secret of Sinuhe' (JARCE) written by my proff. Do you have any suggestions? Thank you! -Suzie- -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/index.html ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:03:23 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL New List for Egyptian Culture Dear Friends, I am delighted to announce to you the creation of a new list for the discussion of ancient Egyptian culture, the Egyptologists' Electronic Forum (EEF). This list is primarily designed to serve the community of academic Egyptologists (students and professionals in higher education), a slightly different subscription base than that served by other presently operating lists which deal with Egyptian culture. However, serious lay persons who are dedicated to learning, are also welcome. The list will be carefully moderated and subscribers protected from list abuses through carefully defined rules. The list tone is more or less that of an informal university seminar. The EEF is a companion list to the AEL, so all of you should continue to direct your discussions on hieroglyphs, texts, and Egyptian grammar to the AEL, while the EEF will treat only extremely advanced discussions of Egyptian language since it primarily exists as a forum for Egyptian culture (art, archaeology, history, religion, literature, etc.). To read the list's charter, rules, and procedures, and/or subscribe, please direct your web pointer to: http://www.netins.net/showcase/ankh/eefmain.html I wish you all well! Yours, Geoffrey Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== From: "Nicholas,Patrizia Myall" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Lesson 2 exercise Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:21:17 +0100 Dear Geoff thank you a lot for correcting my exercise it's been a great help since I am learning on my own. I really hope that you and Stephen will continue with the lessons on line for us beginners! Excuse me if I start to call you with your first name but I receive with great pleasure the E mail from the list and I start to consider you all as friends! I am sending my answers to exercise 2 hoping you have time to correct them. Sincerely Patrizia Di Paolo 1 jw=j Hr sDm Hm.t=k nfr.t I hear your beautiful wife.(Coud I use "listen" instead of "hear" or "beautiful" instead of "good"?) 2 mk mw.t=Tn r jtj.t jx.t jz Look,your mother will take possession of ligt (???) 3 jw sn=f jnj.t jH.t dSr.t His brother will bring the red cow 4 w3D xt.w=sn Our trees are green 5 bjn z3=f nDs his son is bad and small 6 wsx Tj.t Hw.t=s The table of her mansion is wide 7 mk nb.t pr Hr s-nm hj=s wr Look! The lady of the house feeds her great husband 8 jw=sn r jnj.t m-D3j.ty nfr.ty They will bring a pair of good books 9 dns nbw=n mk n r jnj.t=f Our gold is havy,look we will bring it! 10 wr jt.w nb=sn nfr sw He is a great and good lord of our fathers. ============================================================================== From: "Leo Bores" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 15:58:55 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL Sinuhe > I was told that you might be able to help me. I'm really interested > in "The Story of Sinuhe" and I'm currently translating it for my > second year hieroglyphic \ The "Story of Sinuhe" can be found in Vol. I, Ancient Egyptian Literature, Miriam Lichtenheim, Univ. California Press, 1975. Leo === Leo D. Bores, M.D. 8049 N. 85th Way Scottsdale, AZ 85258 FAX:602-998-1552 ============================================================================== From: "Tibs" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Sinuhe Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 22:57:41 -0500 The "Story of Sinuhe" can be found in Vol. I, Ancient Egyptian Literature, Miriam Lichtenheim, Univ. California Press, 1975. Leo === Thanks for the info but I already have that translation (plus I'm trying to translate it on my own). What I was really looking for was some references that I can use to write an analytical paper for my class. Suzie ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:37:08 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Sinuhe Leo Bores 'ecrit : > > I was told that you might be able to help me. I'm really interested > > in "The Story of Sinuhe" and I'm currently translating it for my > > second year hieroglyphic > \ If you read french, a fascinating study of texts from this period, and in particular Sinuhe, is
Littérature et politique dans l'Égypte de la XIIieme dynastie Posener, G., Éditions Champion, Paris 1969
It seems to be out of print, so you should look in a university library. ============================================================================== From: BisnoCC@aol.com Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:40:37 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Sinuhe Ronald Bullock, The Story of Sinuhe, London, no date but 1970's(?). Text, translation, and analysis. AF Rainey, The World of Sinuhe, in Israel Oriental Studies I (1972), 369-408, is an interesting historical commentary. I hope this helps. Jay Bisno Culver City ============================================================================== To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Cc: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 16:10:36 -0800 Subject: Re: AEL Narmer palette From: anema@juno.com (Aida E Nema) The Narmer Palette was in the Cairo Museum on the top floor Aida Nema ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 20:16:56 -0600 From: Bob Vigliotti To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar: an eye for an ir ??? I am new at hieroglyphic studies. Iin describing the language, these symbols were used; D40-Y1 Z2...x n,etc.. Are these computerized glyphs? Is there a name for this system of notation? If so, where can I obtain it? regards Bob Vigliotti (rvigliot@isd.net) St. Paul MN 55102 USA Serge Rosmorduc wrote: > Mike Dyall-Smith 'ecrit : > Westcar, the sentence spanning the 2nd last and last pages: > > > > I sent off a comment by Antonio Loprieno some time ago and I was > > wondering what people thought about his interpretation of the eye sign > > (iri) also being used for the initial particle ir (which could be written > > as a 'mouth' sign). Is this a possible usage of the eye sign or does this > > interpretation mean that there is confusion in the hieratic original, ie. > > what is transcribed by de Buck as an eye (the verb, iri) is really just a > > mouth ({i}r). > > I would like to have somebodies opinion on this please.... > > The photographs of the papyrus in Blackman are not very clear, but the > eye-sign is quite readable. You can mix up a 't', and 'r' in hieratic, > but the eye sign is quite distinct from these two. > > As a result, I doubt about this 'ir' being the particle. In some very > late texts, like Amenemope, you find some confusions, but more like > 'iw' or 'r' for 'iry', not the contrary, and furthermore, in positions > where 'iry' is not the full verb, but a mere auxiliary. > > e.g. Amenemope (25,15) > iry wsr (r) xn=f (m) dHA (Late Egyptian third future) > written > -r -wsr-r:D40-Y1:Z2 -x:n-nw:W-qmA-G41:Y1-=f -d-HA-A-i-i-t:F37B-Hn-Z3-! > > However, again, this kind of writtings are quite late, and given > a) the date of Westcar > b) the rather good quality of the text in general, > I think our 'ir' is definitly the verb 'to make'. > > regards, > > -- > > Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) > 66, rue Alexandre Dumas > 75011 Paris > tel 01 48 70 37 09 > fax 01 48 70 86 49 > http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:01:12 +0000 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Tony Gist Subject: AEL Beginners lessons I have been lurking around for quite a while now and as a *complete* novice I must admit to being completely out of my depth. Is there any kind soul who would consider starting a thread of introductory lessons where people like myself can learn and contribute? I know there are a number of good introductory www sites that introduce the basics but these are obviously non-interactive. I have Gardiner's text book but find it very hard going. I do feel if we could start a beginners thread then many people could benefit. I hope that the more experienced members of this list would not object to this idea. Comments anyone? -- Tony Gist ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 11:22:41 +0100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Francesca Subject: Re: AEL Westcar: an eye for an ir ??? At 08:16 PM 2/24/98 -0600, bob vigliotti wrote: >I am new at hieroglyphic studies. Iin describing the language, these symbols were used; >D40-Y1 Z2...x n,etc.. Are these computerized glyphs? Is there a name for this system of >notation? If so, where can I obtain it? These are indeed computerized symbols for hieroglyphs. Check out the CCER site for the Glyph for Windows at The demo version is available at this site. Regards, Francesca ============================================================================== From: nordpete@webtv.net (Jim & Barb Nordyke/Petersen) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 07:04:02 -0500 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk (Ancient Egyptian Language List) Subject: Re: AEL Narmer palette Thank-you for the location, I was there in Aug '93 and tried to take photos inside, not sure if I have one of it. If so it was by accident. Do you know if any photos available on net, or who to ask for this info? Thanks again for your assistance. Barbara Petersen nordpete@webtv.net ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:36:41 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Lesson 2 exercise Buongiorno, Patrizia, I am sorry it has taken me so long, but I am now moderating a new list on top of being a student, so I have little time. > 1 jw=j Hr sDm Hm.t=k nfr.t > I hear your beautiful wife.(Coud I use "listen" instead of "hear" or > "beautiful" instead of "good"?) Yes. > 2 mk mw.t=Tn r jtj.t jx.t jz ^.t > Look,your mother will take possession of ligt (???) Look, your mother shall take a light (not heavy) thing/possession/object. > 3 jw sn=f jnj.t jH.t dSr.t ^r > His brother will bring the red cow Yes. > 4 w3D xt.w=sn > Our trees are green Yes. > 5 bjn z3=f nDs > his son is bad and small His small son is bad. > 6 wsx Tj.t Hw.t=s > The table of her mansion is wide Yes. > 7 mk nb.t pr Hr s-nm hj=s wr > Look! The lady of the house feeds her great husband Yes. > 8 jw=sn r jnj.t m-D3j.ty nfr.ty > They will bring a pair of good books Yes. > 9 dns nbw=n mk n r jnj.t=f > Our gold is havy,look we will bring it! Yes. > 10 wr jt.w nb=sn nfr sw > He is a great and good lord of our fathers. The fathers/ancestors of their lord is great and he is good. Yours, Geoff ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:26:36 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar: an eye for an ir ??? Bob Vigliotti wrote: > > I am new at hieroglyphic studies. Iin describing the language, these symbols were used; > D40-Y1 Z2...x n,etc.. Are these computerized glyphs? Is there a name for this system of > notation? If so, where can I obtain it? > regards The standard system from transcribing hieroglyphic texts into a form suitable for computer and e-mail is called "Manuel de Codage" format. You can get a complete description of it at: http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/codage/codage.htm A simplified version of this is used for transliteration of Egyptian in e-mail messages. Information on this part of it is available as a table at: http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/codage/codage.htm I hope this helps. Best wishes for your studies of Egyptian! -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 19:09:18 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL Narmer palette On 25 Feb 98 at 7:04, Jim & Barb Nordyke/Petersen wrote: > Thank-you for the location, I was there in Aug '93 and tried to take > photos inside, not sure if I have one of it. If so it was by accident. > Do you know if any photos available on net, or who to ask for this info? I don't know whether you can find a photo of it on the net, but you should be able to find one in many of the introductory books on ancient Egypt. Can I also request that people respond privately to this thread, as it is not really related to the Ancient Egyptian language. Thanks, Mark Wilson Owner-AEL -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/index.html ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 19:09:17 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL Beginners lessons On 25 Feb 98 at 9:01, Tony Gist wrote: > I have been lurking around for quite a while now and as a *complete* > novice I must admit to being completely out of my depth. Is there any > kind soul who would consider starting a thread of introductory lessons > where people like myself can learn and contribute? There are some introductory lessons on the AEL web page: http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/exercises If you feel confident enough to attempt any of them, post your answers to the list and I'm sure someone will look over them for you. Regards, -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/index.html ============================================================================== From: "Tibs" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Beginners lessons Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:58:53 -0500 Is there any >kind soul who would consider starting a thread of introductory lessons >where people like myself can learn and contribute? I really like that idea. I've been learning hieroglyphics for the last 4 years now but I always like to refresh my beginner lesons. I learned from Gardiner's book but I was fortunate to have a proff. teach me. I couldn't imagine trying to learn from Gardiner on my own. I'll contribute as much as I can and hopefully learn more. I am currently taking a break from my attempt at translating "The Story of Sinuhe" and it is pretty slow going. I don't know how to start a thread (I'm very new at this list thing) but I will join one when started. ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 15:08:31 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Beginners lessons Tony Gist wrote: > > I have been lurking around for quite a while now and as a *complete* > novice I must admit to being completely out of my depth. Is there any > kind soul who would consider starting a thread of introductory lessons > where people like myself can learn and contribute? We have actually been attempting something of the sort. Unfortunately, those of us who have been trying to put together some sort of coherent sequence seem to be rather overwhelmed with other things that require our time. Believe me, it certainly it isn't from not attaching very high value to such a project! > I know there are a number of good introductory www sites that introduce > the basics but these are obviously non-interactive. I don't know if you know of my Little Egyptian Reading Book, which may give you a little elementary practice (as far as it goes anyway). I suppose I need to do something about making it clear that if people need help with it, I do answer e-mail. I have also been working on some hieratic lessons for those who know the hieroglyphic script and at least come grammar and vocabulary, which I have made (I think) reasonably interactive. > I have Gardiner's > text book but find it very hard going. I do feel if we could start a > beginners thread then many people could benefit. I'm afraid that Gardiner is not very good for beginners trying to learn on their own (I should know!). Perhaps you could indicate how far you have managed to get, or what specific problems you are having, so that we know a little better how we might help you. (I don't know if you're aware that there are answers for the exercises in Gardiner's chapters 1-9 posted at: http://www.ashmol.ox.ac.uk/gri/8gramt.html and: http://www.ashmol.ox.ac.uk/gri/8gramt9.html They may give you some help.) -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 19:59:43 -0500 From: "Oscar H. Blayton" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Narmer palette Jim & Barb Nordyke/Petersen wrote: >=20 > Do you know if any photos available on net, or who to ask for this info= ? >=20 > Barbara Petersen > nordpete@webtv.net =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Barbara, Here are two URLs for photos of the Narmer Palette. The first is for the front side, and the second is for the reverse. I like this site because the photo is placed next to a drawing that clearly shows the images on the palette. This are from a site belonging to the Univ. of Hawaii. http://alaike.lcc.hawaii.edu/sg/101images/pal_f_l.html http://alaike.lcc.hawaii.edu/sg/101images/pal_b_l.html Oscar Blayton Blayton_Law@sprynet.com --=20 =D0=CF=11=E0=A1=B1=1A=E1 ============================================================================== From: "Paola Tesoriere" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: RE: AEL Beginners lessons Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 22:43:42 -0300 Hi, everyone. I agree too! I am about to get married therefore won't be here from middle march to middle april but I'm willing to participate all the same. May be one of the more advanced people in this list will like to help? Paola. -----Mensaje original----- De: Tibs Para: Ancient Egyptian Language List Fecha: Mircoles 25 de Febrero de 1998 10:03 PM Asunto: Re: AEL Beginners lessons > > >Is there any >>kind soul who would consider starting a thread of introductory lessons >>where people like myself can learn and contribute? > > >I really like that idea. I've been learning hieroglyphics for the last 4 >years now but I always like to refresh my beginner lesons. I learned from >Gardiner's book but I was fortunate to have a proff. teach me. I couldn't >imagine trying to learn from Gardiner on my own. I'll contribute as much as >I can and hopefully learn more. I am currently taking a break from my >attempt at translating "The Story of Sinuhe" and it is pretty slow going. I >don't know how to start a thread (I'm very new at this list thing) but I >will join one when started. > > > ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 13:20:23 +0000 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Tony Gist Subject: Re: AEL Beginners lessons In article <000601bd4230$2fd084e0$546bb5cf@dbmarsh>, Tibs writes > > >Is there any >>kind soul who would consider starting a thread of introductory lessons >>where people like myself can learn and contribute? > > >I really like that idea. I've been learning hieroglyphics for the last 4 >years now but I always like to refresh my beginner lesons. > I'll contribute as much as >I can and hopefully learn more. I am currently taking a break from my >attempt at translating "The Story of Sinuhe" and it is pretty slow going. I >don't know how to start a thread (I'm very new at this list thing) but I >will join one when started. > What I would really like to see happen is a regular ongoing discussion of the very basics of Ancient Egyptian. I am sure that a number of people who subscribe to this excellent list are in a very similar position to myself - raw beginners who perhaps feel intimidated by the advanced nature of many of postings. We are all possibly frightened of making fools of ourselves by discussing the very elementary aspects of Ancient Egyptian. Many of the WWW pages on introductory Ancient Egyptian are very good but they obviously lack the interaction that a list like AEgyptian has. -- Tony Gist ============================================================================== From: "Mark Vygus" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Weni P1/L5-8a Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 20:24:14 -0000 dbH=ki m-a Hm n.i nb=i ini.ti n(=i) I begged the majesty of my lord (to have) brought to (me) qrs.w-inr-HD m rA-Aw a sarcophagus of white stone from Tura rDi Hm=f DAi xtm.w-nTr Hna TAz.t His majesty caused the seal-bearer of the god to cross over together with a company n.i.t apr-aHa.w Xr.i a=f of sailors under his command ir ini.t n(=i) qrs.w pn m rA-Aw in order to bring to (me) this sarcophagus from Tura ii.n=f m-a=f m sAT aAi n.i Xnw it arrived with him in a great barge of the court Hna aA=f together with its lid, rw.t rA.w.t snw gmH.wy zAT a falsedoor lintel, two doorjambs and a libation stone ni zp pAw.ti iri.t mrw.ti.t n bAk nb on no occasion had the like been done for any servant (before) Mark V nsw-bit@msn.com ==============================================================================