Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 23:05:47 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL again translation Dear, Mr. Gadalla, Thanks for the note. > I REALLY hope that you and other dedicated scholars on this AEL will use the > Egyptian names/words in some form, and follow it with the Greek name between > parenthesis. For example Hw.t-Hrw (Hathor). When it is appropriate, I always attempt to do so, but it depends on the destination of a post. On the AEL, I assume people are interested in such information, but elsewhere, it is only extra clutter. I think it is important, first of all, for novices to familiarize themselves with the usual usage of Egyptian proper names in Engllish literature. Then, if it is relevant to a discussion, or the list happens to be focused on the Egyptian language, I think it only fair to give a translitertation of the name in Egyptian. However, I do not consider it particularly productive to offer alternate spellings of vocalized versions of such names. It is one thing to offer a possible reconstruction, but quite another to perpetuate or instigate new variant spellings in the English language. If anything, we need to narrow down all these variants into something universally intelligible. I have been on lists where each poster spells them all differently depending upon their particular whims or ideas about what the Egyptian names "should" be. This serves nothing but to offer more confusion to an already complicated situation. > I believe that we always want to stay in touch with the original Egyptian > word/symbol. After all, we are studying and learning about ancient Egypt. "We" as students and scholars of the Egyptian language, yes, however, not everyone is in a position to analyze such information and utilize it. > May the Neteroo stay within you, throughout. "nTr.w" Well, if your wishes are effective, then I shall be a most blessed individual. Thank you. ;-P {oucai hm-p-coeis} (a Coptic farewell meaning "salvation/wellness in the Lord") Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:07:37 +1100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Question On Netscape you can resize the frames. You put the cursor over the horizontal frame division and the cursor changes to a different shape which allows you to drag the frame down, to make it larger. Then you can see the entire text and click the signs to see the vocabulary entries. Does this make sense? Best wishes, Mike Dyall-Smith >>From a quiet participant: >Congratulations on the first year of existence and the enjoyable exchange >of questions and answers! >Question: How does one view the Westcar vocabulary on page 11 past >lines 1-4? The next line instructions are covered up and I cannot >figure out how to get to them. >Thanks for your help! >Herbert J. Burgauer ******************************** Mike Dyall-Smith, Melbourne, Australia m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au ******************************** ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 19:02:28 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Help for the "Just Starting" Jason Perry wrote: > I am in the 8th Grade Welcome! I started in Grade 7 when we studied Ancient Egypt, but that was a LONG time ago (my son claims it must have been around the time of the pyramids) > I started out Wednesday and using what I have gotten from the AEL website > and Egyptlogica Vlaanderen VZW I have learned about 72 symbols and a > vocab base of 36 words. It sound like you are making rapid progress. I wish the Web had been available when I was starting out! You might want ot also look at my pages too: http://home.prcn.org/~sfryer/egypt.html My major question of the moment is how you > change the tense of verbs like > I loved > I am loving > I will love > not nesarrily those but of all verbs. How do you change the tense of > Egyptian verbs. You are really going for the hard questions first! This is still somewhat a topic of debate in Egyptian linguistics. I'll try to give you roughly the right information here, based on the verb sDm, "hear," which is usually used for such paradigms. Present: iw sDm=i I hear iw sDm=n we hear iw sDm=k thou(m.) hear iw sDm=Tn you hear iw sDm=T thou(f.) hear iw sDm=f he hears iw sDm=sn they hear iw sDm=s she hears Past: iw sDm.n=i I heard iw sDm.n=n we heard iw sDm.n=k iw sDm.n=Tn iw sDm.n=T iw sDm.n=f iw sDm.nsn iw sDm.n=s Future: iw=i r sDm I will hear iw=n r sDm we will hear iw=k r sDm iw=Tn r sDm iw=T r sDm iw=f r sDm iw=sn r sDm iw=s r sDm Progressive: iw=i Hr sDm I am hearing iw=n Hr sDm we are hearing iw=k Hr sDm iw=Tn Hr sDm iw=T Hr sDm iw=f Hr sDm iw=sn Hr sDm iw=s Hr sDm Prospective: sDm=i let me hear sDm=n let us hear sDm=k may thou (m.) hear sDm=Tn may you hear sDm=T may thou (f.) hear sDm=f may he hear sDm=sn may they hear sDm=s may she hear I didn't type out all the English in all places in the tables, since I am too lazy to type it and you're smart enough to figure out what goes there anyway. I hope this will help you, even if I can't write the hieroglyphs in an e-mail message. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:16:25 +1100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Westcar: an eye for an ir ??? Westcar, the sentence spanning the 2nd last and last pages: I sent off a comment by Antonio Loprieno some time ago and I was wondering what people thought about his interpretation of the eye sign (iri) also being used for the initial particle ir (which could be written as a 'mouth' sign). Is this a possible usage of the eye sign or does this interpretation mean that there is confusion in the hieratic original, ie. what is transcribed by de Buck as an eye (the verb, iri) is really just a mouth ({i}r). I would like to have somebodies opinion on this please.... Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith ************************************* Mike Dyall-Smith, Ph.D. Department of Microbiology and Immunology, University of Melbourne, 3052 Australia Tel: +(613) 9344-5693 Fax: +(613) 9347-1540 e-m: m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au web: www.microbiol.unimelb.edu.au/mds/ ************************************* ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:29:42 +0100 To: From: Francesca Subject: Re: AEL again translation At 09:36 PM 2/11/98 -0500, Graham wrote: >This is why most Anglophone Egyptologists have concured in recognition of >the necessity to set standard academic spellings and forms for these >names. Students can learn them all this way and see consistency from one >book to another, and if they advance in the Egyptian language, they will >then know more about the names in question, but they should not feel >obliged to pick one of the multitude of crazy spellings out there >everytime they come accross a new Egyptian proper name. >Does this make sense? It does. Indeed, I had not realized that the Italian names from Egyptian transliteration could derive from the Latin part of the language. Thank you so much to you and Giorgio, to have answered my question. Francesca ============================================================================== From: nordpete@webtv.net (Jim & Barb Nordyke/Petersen) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 08:03:52 -0500 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk (Ancient Egyptian Language List) Subject: Re: AEL again translation Moustafa Gadalla recommended: That the Greek name be included in parenthesis along with the Egyptian name. Good Idea, especially for the beginners, like myself. Barbara Petersen nordpete@webtv.net B.Pete. ============================================================================== From: "maria and les " To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Re: Thankyou Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:23:27 -0000 Aayko and Graham, Thankyou both for your help re: names of dogs. The breeds I own are very ancient, and it is most exciting to see pictures of them depicted on walls etc. How interesting that one of the descriptions was" Gazelle" as the standard for one of my breeds is indeed elegant and swift! We have the Ibizan Hound, very much like "Anubis" the Pharaoh Hound, again similar, but smaller in size. And the Sloughi, a dog of the Bedouin. And as for "dustbin" I must say that seems to be the favourite raiding place of them all!! So I did smile at that!! I am a commitee member for The Hunting Dogs of Ancient Egypt, and we strive to keep the breeds as they were, without introducing the fashions that creep into many breeds of dog. I have a busy task ahead of me trying to work out all the hounds names into hieroglypics for the millenium show!!! I am enjoying the list in all the aspects, and for a total beginner, I am finding it all surprisingly easy to follow! Maria Goodman maria@anubis.abel.co.uk ============================================================================== From: USHorus@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 11:08:25 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL again translation I wrote, >>I REALLY hope that you and other dedicated scholars on this AEL will use the Egyptian names/words in some form, and follow it with the Greek name between parenthesis. For example, Hw.t-Hrw (Hathor). >>> Mr. Geoffrey Graham wrote, >When it is appropriate, I always attempt to do so, but it depends on the destination of a post. On the AEL, I assume people are interested in such information, but elsewhere, it is only extra clutter... >> Dear Mr. Graham, You contribute immensely to this AEL, as well as many other areas. I started as an amateur, reading about ancient Egypt. A few years ago, I discovered the importance of stating the Egyptian names/symbols, in understanding their civilization. As an example, the Egyptians called the Karnak Temple 'Apet-sut', which means the Enumerator of the Places. Now, I see this temple in a totally different and expansive light. I started thinking of number symbology, in this temple and other texts as well. As you are well aware, the Egyptian names of things often contained keys to their inter-relatedness. The structure of the words followed the principles of connection, distinction, and inversion. Thanks again for your continuing contributions. May the nTr.w (neteroo) stay within you and all of us. Best Regards, Moustafa Gadalla http://members.aol.com/ushorus ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 17:28:50 -0500 From: "Oscar H. Blayton" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List CC: sfryer@prcn.org Subject: Re: AEL Help for the "Just Starting" Stephen Fryer wrote: > > > Present: > iw sDm=i I hear iw sDm=n we hear > iw sDm=k thou(m.) hear iw sDm=Tn you hear > iw sDm=T thou(f.) hear > iw sDm=f he hears iw sDm=sn they hear > iw sDm=s she hears > > Past: > iw sDm.n=i I heard iw sDm.n=n we heard > iw sDm.n=k iw sDm.n=Tn > iw sDm.n=T > iw sDm.n=f iw sDm.nsn > iw sDm.n=s > ====================== Break ====================== > > Progressive: > iw=i Hr sDm I am hearing iw=n Hr sDm we are hearing > iw=k Hr sDm iw=Tn Hr sDm > iw=T Hr sDm > iw=f Hr sDm iw=sn Hr sDm > iw=s Hr sDm > ======================================================= ======================================================= ======================================================= Stephen, Thanks for your response to Jason's question [whick is helpful to me as a beginner], but now I have a question as a result of that response. The Progressive was indicated in Lesson One to be possible in both the present and the past: "iw=f Hr sDm he is/was hearing " If you have the time, could you please explain the difference between the Progressive as opposed to the Past and Present tenses? I think I have an Idea [Perhaps the Progressive indicates a continuance over time, very similar to the use of "he be ..." in eubonics], but this is just a complete stab in the dark. Thanks for all your time and help,as I remain Yours truly, Oscar Blayton Blayton_Law@sprynet.com ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:38:08 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Help for the "Just Starting" Oscar H. Blayton wrote: > Thanks for your response to Jason's question [whick is helpful to me as > a beginner], but now I have a question as a result of that response. > > The Progressive was indicated in Lesson One to be possible in both the > present and the past: "iw=f Hr sDm he is/was > hearing " > > If you have the time, could you please explain the difference between > the Progressive as opposed to the Past and Present tenses? The progressive "tense" just indicates the the action is going on, has not yet been completed at the time under discussion (which could be past or present). The simple past and present tenses speak simply of an action as being either in the present or the past with no reference to whether it is ongoing or not. We have the same distinctions in English: SIMPLE PROGRESSIVE I walk to the store. I am walking to the store. I walked to the store. I was walking to the store. I hope this helps. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 18:02:10 +0100 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Frankie Subject: AEL transliteration help I have been looking for, and cannot find anywhere, a transliteration chart. How can we transliterate the hieroglyphs? The /h/ with the dot underneath is H, right? What about the /h/ with the 'curved line', and all the others /k/, /s/, etc? By the way, does each have a special name? I'd appreciate some help on this as writing hieroglyphs or transliteration symbols as they are in books is not possible on e-mail messages. Thank you Francesca Jourdan ============================================================================== From: Hans van Haarst To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:27:53 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL Westcar: an eye for an ir ??? > Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 20:16:25 +1100 > To: Ancient Egyptian Language > From: Mike Dyall-Smith > Subject: AEL Westcar: an eye for an ir ??? > Reply-to: Ancient Egyptian Language List > Westcar, the sentence spanning the 2nd last and last pages: > > I sent off a comment by Antonio Loprieno some time ago and I was > wondering what people thought about his interpretation of the eye sign > (iri) also being used for the initial particle ir (which could be written > as a 'mouth' sign). Is this a possible usage of the eye sign or does this > interpretation mean that there is confusion in the hieratic original, ie. > what is transcribed by de Buck as an eye (the verb, iri) is really just a > mouth ({i}r). > I would like to have somebodies opinion on this please.... > > Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith > > ************************************* > Mike Dyall-Smith, Ph.D. > Department of Microbiology and Immunology, > University of Melbourne, > 3052 Australia > > Tel: +(613) 9344-5693 > Fax: +(613) 9347-1540 > e-m: m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au > web: www.microbiol.unimelb.edu.au/mds/ > ************************************* > Dear Mike, I never encountered an eye sign used as the particle ir. The best thing to do is to ask Mr. Loprieno for more details. In the transliteration you can easily get a confusion between ir, the verb and ir, the particle, especially when the passive tense is used. Could there be a confusion between hieroglyph and transliteration ? ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 17:51:55 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL transliteration help Dear Francesca, This is a good question, and I am sure others have wished to ask it but have been too shy. There are web sites which explain this, but allow me to elaborate here, for everyone's benefit. The main system employed via e-mail is the Manuel de Codage system. I use this, however, I have a few special quirks which I cannot seem to let go of. So in what follows, I give you the Manuel system with my variants in parentheses: (the areas where I cannot budge are related to the use of vowels to represent consonantal phonemes. Also, please pardon the funny spellings of the English letter names. I don't think there is any standardized way to spell them of which I am presently aware, and I have opted for how they sound.) ascii hieroglyph diacritic character Special Name ______________________________________________________________________ A (3) Egyptian vulture "double apostrophe" "aleph" i (j) reedstalk "apostophe-dotted-eye" "yodh" y double reedstalks "why" "double yodh" a (`) arm "inverted apostrophe" "`ayin" w quail chick "double-ewe" "waw" b foot "bee" p stool "pee" f horned viper "eff" m owl "emm" n water waves "enn" r mouth "arr" h house plan "hache" "first hache" H wick "dotted-hache" "second hache" x darkened circle "contact-lens-hache" "third hache" X cow belly "underscore-hache" "fourth hache" z door bolt "zed" or "zee" "first ess" s folded cloth "accute-ess" "second ess" S pool "hachek-ess" "esh" or "shin" q sand dune "dotted-kay" or "que" "qof" k handled basket "kay" g pot stand "gee" t loaf of bread "tee" T tether "underscore-tee" "tjee" d hand "dee" D cobra "underscore-dee" "djandja" Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:02:44 -0500 From: "Oscar H. Blayton" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Help for the "Just Starting" Stephen Fryer wrote: > > The progressive "tense" just indicates the the action is going on, has not yet > been completed at the time under discussion (which could be past or present). > The simple past and present tenses speak simply of an action as being either in > the present or the past with no reference to whether it is ongoing or not. > > We have the same distinctions in English: > SIMPLE PROGRESSIVE > I walk to the store. I am walking to the store. > I walked to the store. I was walking to the store. > > I hope this helps. > ============================================ Dear Stephen, Thanks for your response to my e-mail regarding the progressive tense, but I still have a question, and perhaps it comes from some confusion on my part. Paradigm I in Exercise 1 used the term "jw=f Hr mrj.t" for "he is/was loving". How do I distinguish the "past progressive", i.e. "He was loving" from the "present" progressive", i.e. "He is loving", "He was loving" if I use "jw=f Hr mrj.t" for both "past" and "present" progressive? I hope my question is not too lacking in understanding in the basic concepts, as I remain Yours truly, Oscar Blayton ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 08:03:23 +1100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Question Dear H.J.Burgauer, I think I've found the reason why this frame is not working whereas the previos ones are fine. Can you give it another try and see if the text now fits into the frame properly? Thanks, Mike Dyall-Smith ************************************* Mike Dyall-Smith, Ph.D. Department of Microbiology and Immunology, University of Melbourne, 3052 Australia Tel: +(613) 9344-5693 Fax: +(613) 9347-1540 e-m: m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au web: www.microbiol.unimelb.edu.au/mds/ ************************************* ============================================================================== From: nordpete@webtv.net (Jim & Barb Nordyke/Petersen) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 09:34:46 -0500 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk (Ancient Egyptian Language List) Cc: mikeyb@global.co.za Subject: Re: AEL Narmer palette Michael Brass requested info on Narmer Palette. Question: What is the Narmer Palette? Question: Where do I look for information about this? Question: Does this have to do with Aegypt? Thank-you for assistance. Barbara Petersen nordpete@webtv.net ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 22:58:30 +0100 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Francesca Subject: AEL transliteration I would like to thank Paola, Geoffrey Graham and Stephen Fryer, who have helped me with transliteration question I had. I have been to the CCER site and found the information very useful. Thank you Francesca Jourdan ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 13:40:47 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Help for the "Just Starting" Oscar H. Blayton wrote: > Paradigm I in Exercise 1 used the term "jw=f Hr mrj.t" for "he is/was > loving". > > How do I distinguish the "past progressive", i.e. "He was loving" from > the "present" progressive", i.e. "He is loving", "He was loving" if I > use "jw=f Hr mrj.t" for both "past" and "present" progressive? > > I hope my question is not too lacking in understanding in the basic > concepts, Actually it is a good point to remember that the various types of "non-verbal" sentences do not give us the time of the event described. The "progressive tense" is one of these. It says nothing in itself about the time of the action, only that it is something that is happening. The time has to be inferred from the context of the sentence, that is what else is being talkedd about. An isolated example has no such context, so we can't really know whether it is past, present or future. Similarly the "future tense is also actually "non-verbal." We could easily have this construction showing up in a past context so that rather than "he will..." it might mean "he was going to..." I hope this helps. Remember that the Egyptian language did not treat time as an absolute, but as relative to either the speaker, or to the actions under discussion. This is rather different than European languages, though not so much from Classical Arabic or Biblical Hebrew. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ==============================================================================