Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 12:31:30 -0800 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Stephen Fryer Subject: Re: AEL "Genitive n" and prepostions At 08:43 AM 97/03/08 -0600, you wrote: >We know that n- is a demonstrative base also. > As far as I know, n- as a demonstrative base has a plural meaning, as in the series pn, tn, nn; or in pA, tA, nA. Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services Lund, BC V0N 2G0 Canada ***************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have. ***************************** ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 09 Mar 1997 12:46:40 -0800 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Stephen Fryer Subject: Re: AEL First lesson At 03:17 PM 97/03/08 +1100, you wrote: >I hope that the experts on the list won't mind the simple questions posed >by us beginners, and that they also won't mind our eavesdropping on their >erudite discussions. > This list was originally created for beginners, so I think that such questions have priority and need no apology. Besides, I think we are all, no matter how far we have progressed (or not ;-) ), still learning about Egyptian, which is as complex and variable as any language. As for evesdropping on esoteric conversations, I think that those of us who engage in such antics should more properly apologize to the rest for burdening the list with such things. From my own lurking on ANE and AEL I feel that it is good for beginners to be aware that these sort of discussions happen, and that perhaps they may broaden ones understanding of the more elementary topics. (Or may reveal that, no matter what the textbooks may say, they aren't really to be dismissed as "elementary") As for your question about "m of predication" I think you understand things, however I will admit that exactly where the boundary between what the Egyptians would or would not have used it for may be a little fuzzy. [I think, given the Egyptians" knowledge of astrophysics, that an Egyptian MIGHT have use "iw ra m sbA" meaning that Re had become a star or was manifesting as a star. Of course we would have to use something awkward like "sbA pw ra" to express our knowledge that the sun is intrinsically a star.] Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services Lund, BC V0N 2G0 Canada ***************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have. ***************************** ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 23:31:17 -0500 From: James_Hoch@mail.campuslife.utoronto.ca (James Hoch) Subject: Re: AEL First Lesson To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Welcome aboard Keith! Stephen has really pegged some good points. First of all, many of us "experts" are teachers at heart, and so we welcome all sincere questions. Second, we, too, never cease to learn new things, and very often these are prompted by questions that hit the basics. In my opinion, the less esoteric the discussion on this list the better. In my opinion, Keith, you have got the basics right on concerning the "m of predication". However, Stephen has raised an interesting question--and pretty well answered it, too. What makes the distinctions in different types of sentences involving equations/identifications appear to be "fuzzy" is not necessarily that the grammar is fuzzy, but involves the point that the speaker was trying to convey. In other words, a speaker might very well have used the "m of predication" in a case where others would not have--the speaker wanting to convey a somewhat different message. Stephen's posited interpretation of a possible *iw ra m sbA is thoroughly possible--if the speaker wanted to suggest that Re is MORE than just a star or star-like phenomenon, and since gods/people/spirits/etc. could take on different manifestations, their identifications were not necessarily inherent ones. The speaker, in this case, would be referring to a particular manifestation of the god, and not equating the god with a celestial body (as perhaps another speaker might hypothetically do). The point is not that anything goes--quite the contrary. The speaker would (unconciously) choose which construction to use based on the point that he/she was making. As students learn early on, just because speakers use the "statement of fact" construction does not mean that they are stating facts! They just are presenting things--in their opinion (or for their particular motives)--as facts. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- CampusLife - University of Toronto http://www.campuslife.utoronto.ca ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:32:07 GMT From: Serge Rosmorduc To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL First lesson >>>>> "Keith" == Keith Wong writes: Keith> iw.f m sS He is a scribe iw mry.t m Hm.t n Any Meryet Keith> is the wife of Any. (?) Keith> are appropriate uses, and Keith> iw ra m sbA The sun is a star iw inpw m nTr Anubis is Keith> a god iw.f m it.i He is my father Keith> are inappropriate because star and god are intrinsic Keith> properties of sun and Anubis respectively, etc. Yes, although you might make sense of them :-) iw=f m it=i would mean something as "he is acting as my father", or "he is a father to me". The same is true for "iw=f m sS", which would mean "he is working as a scribe", vs "sS pw" "he is a scribe". regards, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) 5, rue Beranger 92240 Malakoff tel 01 48 70 37 13 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://www.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 08:16:34 -0600 From: "Patrick C. Ryan" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL First Lesson James Hoch wrote: > > Welcome aboard Keith! > > Stephen has really pegged some good points. First of all, many of us > "experts" are teachers at heart, and so we welcome all sincere questions. > Second, we, too, never cease to learn new things, and very often these are > prompted by questions that hit the basics. Back to a basic question, concerning the n-base of demonstratives, Edel writes (p. 88): "Den Demonstrativpronomina nn, nw und nf ist gemeinsam, dass sie nicht adjektivisch gebraucht werden, sondern substantivisch mit neutrischer Bedeutung; sie werden als Maskulina behandelt und SINGULARISCH konstruiert." Similarly, on p. 89, he gives the example of "jw nfr n3", "this is pretty" --- again SINGULAR. I hope this will not be considered esoteric since the construction of n-demonstratives is a rather basic question. Pat > -- > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > CampusLife - University of Toronto http://www.campuslife.utoronto.ca > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- PATRICK C. RYAN {ProtoL9@mail.idt.net} * (501) 227-9947 9115 W. 34th St. * Little Rock, AR 72204-4441 * USA Veit ek, at ek hekk, vindga meidhi, naetr allar niu, geiri undadhr... a theim meidhi er mangi veit hvers hann af rotum renn.' * (Havamal 138) ****************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 10:21:23 -0800 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Stephen Fryer Subject: AEL RE: prepositional phrases At 10:23 AM 97/03/07 +0000, you wrote: >I didn't mean you to think I was quoting Gardiner *at* you or using >the "appeal to authority" argument as you put it. I was just trying >to say that if it is defined as such, the only question that remains >is to define what we mean by adverbial in ancient egyptian. > I'm a little uncomfortable still with the idea of DEFINING prepositional phrases as a priori adverbial. If we do this, as you asay, then we have to define what we mean by adverbial in ancient Egyptian. It seems to me that it would be better to be working the other way around - starting from a genereal definition of "adverbial" and "adverb" and seeing what in Egyptian fulfilled those functions. In English, a prepositional phrase can also function as an adjective. Perhaps the same was true in Egyptian - if we simply define prepostional phrases as adverbial we may be blinding ourselves to certain nuances of meaning. Hypothetical example: sDm sS m Xnnw If we treat "m Xnnw" as adverbial we translate it May the scribe hear (it) in the Residence. However, if it were adjectival, we would have May the scribe in the Residence hear (it). The former treats it as the place where the scribe does the hearing, the second specifies which scribe we are talking about. Unfortunately, in a case like this, Egyptian word order is no help whatever in deciding which is the intended meaning. Perhaps some examples exist which make it clearer whther such use of prepositional phrases actually occurs in Egyptian. (I realize that in Egyptian the latter meaning could also be expressed by sDm sS nty m Xnnw May the scribe who is in the Residence hear (it). This doesn't seem to preclude the possibility of using a phrase adjectivally - after all we can use both structures in English.) Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services Lund, BC V0N 2G0 Canada ***************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have. ***************************** ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 23:57:12 +0000 Subject: AEL Clarification of purpose Dear AEL members, Just recently there has been a little misunderstanding about the purpose of this list. This has been largely due to the somewhat esoteric direction that prevailed in the list last week. What the list is for ==================== Let me just say why this list is here. It has been set up primarily to provide a virtual meeting for those studying the Ancient Egyptian language on there own to ask questions and discuss any points of interest relating to the language(s) of Ancient Egypt. The list is dedicated to the study of the Ancient Egyptian language and texts. We currently have about 125 list members of all levels of ability with respect to the language. If you have an interest in the language, at whatever level, this list is for you. You are positively encouraged to raise any questions related to the language or the study thereof. What the list is NOT for ======================== The list is not intended for establishing the relationship of Ancient Egyptian to Swahili/Outer Mongolian/Indo European etc. etc. Anyone pursuing these issues will be deemed to have upset the balance of ma'at and will be fed to Anubis in his name of "Eater of Subscriptions" (or as others say, will be removed from the list). The list is also not for "showing off" how much you (think) you know, boosting your ego, or putting other people down. We are all here to learn. NOBODY has all the answers. What next? ========== Efforts are being made "behind the scenes" to try to put together some teaching materials to act as an additional focus for on-list study and discussions. Hopefully this won't take too long (inshallah), but I would ask the list to bear with us while these preparations are under way. Please remember that the reason the scope of this list is quite focused is so that we can feel relaxed about discussing the language, and asking questions (however basic), without worrying about taking up bandwidth on just one aspect of ANE studies (as we might have done in the ANE list). Regards, Mark Wilson. ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 08:41:30 +0000 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Marc Line Subject: AEL Colour Hello folks. Whilst surrounded by dictionaries and grammars, such that a house extension has been suggested, I am nonetheless lacking in what I consider to be an important, if not crucial regard. Specifically, I do not have sufficient information as to the colour in which glyphs were painted. Firstly, I should very much like to know if there is such a thing as a publication which, if not providing a comprehensive list of glyphs and the colour/s in which they should be rendered, offers a springboard from whence to proceed. Secondly, does anyone here know whether or not the colour/s in which glyphs were rendered was standardised throughout the period of their use, across the geographic range of their use, and across the contexts of their use? If there was indeed such a standard, from what period did it apply? Thirdly, and finally, given that much of the meaning of glyphs is embodied in their form, to what extent might the colour chosen to render them bear on their interpretation? Monochromatic data such as I have to hand is perfectly adequate for literary purposes but when one wishes to extend that into the arena of artistic creation, one finds that colour information is also necessary. Thanks for your time. Regards Marc XxX ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 15:00:13 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Colour Hello, Marc, > consider to be an important, if not crucial regard. Specifically, I do > not have sufficient information as to the colour in which glyphs were > painted. This is an interesting question. > Firstly, I should very much like to know if there is such a thing as a > publication which, if not providing a comprehensive list of glyphs and > the colour/s in which they should be rendered, offers a springboard from > whence to proceed. I do not know of any such publication, however, I would recommend that you look at color photos of painted relief. The Calverly Broom watercolors of the temple of Sety I at Abydos, would be one publication that I could think of right off hand. > Secondly, does anyone here know whether or not the colour/s in which > glyphs were rendered was standardised throughout the period of their > use, across the geographic range of their use, and across the contexts > of their use? If there was indeed such a standard, from what period did > it apply? I would have to say that there was not really any standard, but that there was usually some form of logic. If an object was part of a human body, it was usually red. If an object was a plant, it was usually green, and so on and so forth. However, many of the earliest inscriptions were all painted with turquoise blue paint, without any regard for the colors of the signs. On the other hand, look at the Wepemnofret stela at UC, Berkeley's Phoebe Hearst Museum, and you will see great care in the coloring of these 4th dynasty signs. > Thirdly, and finally, given that much of the meaning of glyphs is > embodied in their form, to what extent might the colour chosen to render > them bear on their interpretation? I believe that color played little role in meaning. I think that the hieroglyphic writing system was probably developed first as black ink on some vegetal surface, if not papyrus itself, and that, right from its beginnings, it was divorced from the confines of color. But that color was added in elaborate paintings and relief, just as a way of especially enlivening the scenes and inscriptions. > Monochromatic data such as I have to hand is perfectly adequate for > literary purposes but when one wishes to extend that into the arena of > artistic creation, one finds that colour information is also necessary. I agree totally. You might check out some of the recent color books on the Valley of the Kings, such as the new one by Wilkinson. There are several color plates which show brightly colored hieroglyphs. The more you look at Egyptian art, the more your sense of what colors various glyphs would be painted becomes instinctive. Oh, by the way, please excuse my American spelling, but we just cannot bring ourselves to spell color "colour" anymore here. I know it must look funny to you, but it would be most pretentious of me to adopt British spellings on here, even though to you they are quite natural and appropriate. ;-) Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 21:47:50 +0000 From: Mark Wilson To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Colour Marc Line wrote: > Specifically, I do > not have sufficient information as to the colour in which glyphs were > painted. > > Firstly, I should very much like to know if there is such a thing as a > publication which, if not providing a comprehensive list of glyphs and > the colour/s in which they should be rendered, offers a springboard from > whence to proceed. Hi Marc, A recent publication may be of interest: _House of Eternity: The Tomb of Nefertari_,John K. McDonald, Thames and Hudson 1996. This book contains many colour photographs of the most wonderfully detailed, painted hieroglyphs. Quite breath taking in fact! Regards, Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk ============================================================================== From: "YED" To: "AEgyptian-List" Subject: AEL About RB 119 Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 08:06:30 +0100 In the present time, I (try to) translate _Book of the dead 125_ (Nu papyrus) from De Buck's Reading book. I have a (light;-) question concerning participle. page 119 line 6 beginning we have "mAAw sw" ; it seems to me it's an imperfective participle but I can decide if passive or active ; in the first case (passive), translation will be "qui est vu" (who is seen), in the second "qui le voit" (who sees him). 1. argue for passive : Gardiner =A7 358 : 2ae gem. mAAw "who is seen" ; Gardiner said about imperfective passive participle (=A7 358) : "the endi= ng -w is much more frequently written than omitted" and about active (=A7 35= 7) : "this ending is sometimes written". 2. argue for active : in first, the sense ; in second the papyrus of Ani (in W. Budge's Book of the Dead - page 205), we have "mAiw sw" and then -= iw was ending pour active ( gardiner =A7 357) "older -iw" but "from the m. plur." How should I know ? More, only in papyrus Nu, plural ending (A1:Z2) follows "sw" ; why ? may = be there is connection with the (construction of) participle ? If AEListers can help me to know the truth (if exists truth) and above al= l how we can decide in general case. thanks all AEListers. amicalement, Yves Dupont - Lyon Croix-Rousse - France ydupont@lyonnet.dtr.fr ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 08:50:36 +0100 (MEZ) From: schenkel@uni-tuebingen.de To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Cc: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Colour/Hieroglyphs Prof.Dr.Wolfgang Schenkel Aegyptologisches Institut Schloss,D-72070 Tuebingen schenkel@uni-tuebingen.de Elisabeth Staehelin, in: Goettinger Miszellen 14 (1974), 49ff. Ead., in: Erik Hornung, Zwei Ramessidische Koenigsgraeber ..., Mainz 1990, S. 101ff. ============================================================================== From: "M. A. R. Barker" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Colour Date: Thu, 13 Mar 97 17:37:20 -0600 Dear Geoff, > Oh, by the way, please excuse my American spelling, but we just cannot > bring ourselves to spell color "colour" anymore here. I know it must look > funny to you, but it would be most pretentious of me to adopt British > spellings on here, even though to you they are quite natural and > appropriate. ;-) Hah! I spell "colour," "honour," "emphasise," etc. all in British style -- drainwashed by my years working in a Canadian university (McGill). It's all what we're used to, and I find I no longer can "write American." :-} Phil Here's my reply to Marc about coluor glyphs. I sent it about the same time you replied to him. ------------ In addition to books mentioned by others, try the following: "A Collection of Hieroglyphs: A Contributioin to the History of Egyptian Writing"; by F. Lt. Griffith; Archaeological Survey of ERgypt, Sixth Memoir, London, 1898. This has nine lovely colour plates, showing many of the glyphs in pastels.cThis is the nearest thing i know to the sort of book you seem to want. You can probably find it at any large library, or can obtain it via interlibrary loan. I think you'll find that there were indeed "standard" colours in some periods for various glyphs. There were also variations. I do not recall any author who related these colours to the hieroglyphs' meanings. I may be wrong. See if you can find the colour treatments of the tomb of Nefertari ("The House of Eternity," by John K. McDonald), the tomb of Seti I (ed. in English & German by Erik Hornung), and others from the 19th Dynasty Valley of the Kings. Some of these tombs are in glorious colour. Earlier works, such as "The Tomb of Ramesses VI," by A. Piankoff and E. Rambova, Bollingen Foundation, 1954, contain boxed plates with 2 in colour. I wish you success! Regards, Phil Barker ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 21:41:10 -0600 From: Saida To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Affirmative Dear List Members, As I do not have access to a Coptic dictionary here, will someone please tell me how one says "yes" or "certainly" in Coptic? Thanks in advance. Marianne Wells ============================================================================== To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: David Maclennan Subject: Re: AEL Colour Date: 14 Mar 1997 16:56:44 +1200 In , Mark Wilson wrote: >A recent publication may be of interest: _House of Eternity: The Tomb of >Nefertari_,John K. McDonald, Thames and Hudson 1996. > >This book contains many colour photographs of the most wonderfully detailed, >painted hieroglyphs. Quite breath taking in fact! I'd like to get this book! How much is it? David Maclennan ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 11:29:25 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL Colour > In , Mark Wilson wrote: > > >A recent publication may be of interest: _House of Eternity: The Tomb of > >Nefertari_,John K. McDonald, Thames and Hudson 1996. David Maclennan wrote: > I'd like to get this book! How much is it? If I remember correctly David, it's about 13 UK pounds. Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 10:50:17 +0000 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Marc Line Subject: Re: AEL Colour Hello Geoff Thanks for your reply and whilst writing, I should also like to take the opportunity to express my thanks to you for your work on Lesson 1. Re: Books on glyph colours. >I do not know of any such publication, however, I would recommend that you >look at color photos of painted relief. The Calverly Broom watercolors of >the temple of Sety I at Abydos, would be one publication that I could >think of right off hand. Alas Geoff, I suspected that such would be the case. However, your suggestion has merit and I was not aware that the Sety I Temple had been published thus. Remiss of me as it is my favourite Temple. Whilst there, I took a great many photos but without flash, many of the colours from the shaded areas were lost. I have the Thames and Hudson book on the Tomb of Nefertari as I was not allowed to take a camera in there at all. This takes me some way towards my destination but there are still hundreds of glyphs which are not shown. I'll certainly try to get my hands on the Calverly Broom publication. Thank you for the pointer. Re: Standardisation? >I would have to say that there was not really any standard, but that there >was usually some form of logic. If an object was part of a human body, it >was usually red. If an object was a plant, it was usually green, and so >on and so forth. However, many of the earliest inscriptions were all >painted with turquoise blue paint, without any regard for the colors of >the signs. On the other hand, look at the Wepemnofret stela at UC, >Berkeley's Phoebe Hearst Museum, and you will see great care in the >coloring of these 4th dynasty signs. Indeed, and my thanks for another useful pointer. I wouldn't want to eat any of that blue bread though!! :)) Re: Colour and meaning? >I believe that color played little role in meaning. I think that the >hieroglyphic writing system was probably developed first as black ink on >some vegetal surface, if not papyrus itself, and that, right from its >beginnings, it was divorced from the confines of color. But that color >was added in elaborate paintings and relief, just as a way of especially >enlivening the scenes and inscriptions. That would make sense. I suppose it would be safe to assume that run- of-the-mill works would be executed in monochrome whilst higher status works, such as the reliefs for Temples and tombs, would be required to be polychromatic. Re: The need for colour accuracy in artistic work. >I agree totally. You might check out some of the recent color books on >the Valley of the Kings, such as the new one by Wilkinson. There are >several color plates which show brightly colored hieroglyphs. The more >you look at Egyptian art, the more your sense of what colors various >glyphs would be painted becomes instinctive. Again, thanks for the pointer. I knew that Wilkinson had recently published again on Egyptian art as I have been in communication with a friend who executed the line-drawings for it. However, I didn't know that he had published on KV material. Hmmm, looks like I need to get out more! :)) >Oh, by the way, please excuse my American spelling, but we just cannot >bring ourselves to spell color "colour" anymore here. I know it must look >funny to you, but it would be most pretentious of me to adopt British >spellings on here, even though to you they are quite natural and >appropriate. ;-) (smile) There is no need to apologise Geoff. Frankly, so much of what I write and read nowadays consists of communications with colleagues and friends across the pond, it is surprising that I am not dropping the "u" myself! As "two peoples separated by a common language", we must all use that with which we are most comfortable and thank the Gods for cultural diversity, the engine driving the richness of the human experience! :) Thanks Geoff, very much Warm regards Marc XxX ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 10:59:06 +0000 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Marc Line Subject: Re: AEL Colour Mark Wilson typed: >A recent publication may be of interest: _House of Eternity: The Tomb of >Nefertari_,John K. McDonald, Thames and Hudson 1996. > >This book contains many colour photographs of the most wonderfully detailed, >painted hieroglyphs. Quite breath taking in fact! Hello Mark Thanks for the reply. Yes, I have the book of which you speak. I picked it up at the Ashmolean Museum around new year. It is, indeed, a splendid publication, bringing back the memory of those 20 minutes or so that I was privileged enough to actually be in the tomb itself. So, I should heartily endorse your recommendation to anyone else who might be interested in what are arguably the most beautiful tomb paintings thus far discovered in Egypt. I think it's about time I visited the Museum Bookshop again! :)) Best regards my friend Marc XxX ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 15:17:26 +0100 (MET) To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: "Yolanda Zwaan (CCER)" Subject: Re: AEL Colour Well, I don't know. I will ask my collegue who is might be more into this. he 's gone for the week, but I'll ask him to get back to you. sincerely, Yolanda Zwaan, CCER. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Centre for Computer-aided Egyptological Research Utrecht University Trans 2 Heidelberglaan 2 NL-3584 CS Utrecht The Netherlands http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 12:18:25 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Affirmative Hi, Marianne, > As I do not have access to a Coptic dictionary here, will someone please > tell me how one says "yes" or "certainly" in Coptic? Thanks in advance. Just as long as we don't get off into another discussion of all the languages of the world... ;-) In Coptic, "yes" could be expressed in more than one way, depending on the circumstances. However, I am on vacation and away from my notes and books for the moment. I do happen to remember one Coptic word for "yes" though. It is "se". And, NO, I do not think it is related to Spanish! ;-) In Late Egyptian "yes" could be expressed as "jrj=j" meaning "I will do", in answer to a request, for instance, or "tjw" probably meaning something like "thus", affirming that something already stated is true. There were probably other ways to express "yes" but I just can't think of them off the top of my head. There may be others on here who can think of the ones I have left out. Please, let us know, if you have any suggestions. Unfortunately, dead languages are not taught like the living ones, and it is easy to go through several years of Egyptian or even Coptic without having learned the words that any native speaker would have thought were essential to converstation. We only get tantalizing glimpses into the spoken language, in the form of quoted conversation snippets, etc. It might be fun to put together an excercise that would be like one for spoken French or some modern Berlitz course. Maybe I will try to make a lesson like that some day. heheheh! ;-) For the moment, I am remembering more such things from Late Egyptian than I am from Middle Egyptian. Hemmm, let's see: j-nD Hr=k "Greetings to you" jj.tj "welcome" xr-<=k "how are you?" Definitely there is food for thought. Maybe we can collect a list of them and come up with a conversational exercise therefrom? Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 16:43:18 +0000 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Marc Line Subject: Re: AEL Colour/Hieroglyphs Prof. Schenkel wrote: >Elisabeth Staehelin, in: Goettinger Miszellen 14 (1974), 49ff. >Ead., in: Erik Hornung, Zwei Ramessidische Koenigsgraeber ..., Mainz 1990, >S. 101ff. Dear Prof. Schenkel (deep breath, here goes) Bitte entschuldigen Sie meinen grauenhaften Deutschen. Vielleicht=20 sollte ich diese Sprache lernen, bevor ich gl=E4tte, betrachten Sie das=20 Gehen keine, f=F6rdern Sie mit Hieroglyphen. Danke f=FCr Ihren Zeiger, ich= =20 werde erforschen, um zu ermitteln ob oder nicht k=F6nnte ich f=E4hig sein,= =20 die Ver=F6ffentlichung zu erwerben. =20 =20 Beste Gr=FC=DFe Marc ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 11:28:51 -0800 (PST) To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: thare@leland.Stanford.EDU (Tom Hare) Subject: AEL The Color of Hieroglyphs Regarding Marc Line's question about the colors used for hieroglyphs: You might want to check out William Stevenson Smith's 1946 book, _A History of Egyptian Sculpture and Painting in the Old Kingdom_ (Boston, 2nd ed., 1949) if you can find it. I believe there is an appendix in the back with detailed information about the colors used for glyphs in two or three important tombs. The list is arranged according to Gardiner's sign list, and indicates whether the glyph in question is wholly in one color, or outlined in one and filled in with another, or otherwise detailed. There are only a few black and white line drawings accompanying the list, but it may be of help as regards Old Kingdom practice. For later on in Egyptian history, it seems as though you're getting lots of suggestions already. Good luck, Tom Hare _________________________________________________________________ Thomas Hare e-mail: thare@leland.stanford.edu Department of Comparative Literature Telephone: (415)725-8228 Chair, Department of Asian Languages Stanford University Stanford, CA 94305-2034 _________________________________________________________________ ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 14:48:28 -0600 From: Saida To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Re: Affirmative Yesterday I asked for information about Coptic affirmative responses and, unfortunately, received a "negative response". Perhaps if I disclose my reason for asking, someone who has access to a Coptic dictionary will tell me how one says "yes" and "certainly" in Coptic. Interjections, of course, are not numerous in ancient Egyptian writings. As an amateur in Egyptian philology, I have given considerable thought recently to how the Egyptians, writing aside, just replied "yes" or "no" when asked a question. I hasten to admit that all my dictionaries and grammars are old ones and latter-day opinion would be very welcome. Gardiner suggested "tiw" as "yes" and "nn" for "no". I would suggest *double reed, measuring cord* (yyw), which my dictionary tentatively defines as "certainly(?)"--to be pronounced as "ayu" or "aywa". "Aywa" is still used as the affirmative response in Egypt today. Most other Arabic-speaking nations used to use another Arabic affirmative response "na'am", but, for all I know, the Egyptian "yes" may have caught on due to Egyptian films, TV, etc. Gardiner's "nn" for "no", I feel, is both right and wrong. It would not surprise me at all were the Egyptian "no" something like the German "nein" or, perhaps, "nayn". Yet even in colloquial German "no" is just plain "nay" and that is what gets my vote for how the average Egyptian said "no". "nn" or "ne, ne" may just be a double "no" (not to be confused with the "nn" for "not"). One might say that it is appropriate for a language with so many Semitic hallmarks as Middle Egyptian to have the same word for "no" and "not", but I feel, in this instance, Egyptian goes its own way again, having a different, if similar, term for "no" and "not", just as we do in English. I suspect the Egyptian "not" to have been pronounced close to "enen" or reduced to "nen". If that is too reminiscent of the Anglo-Saxon "aye" and "nay" for some to be comfortable with, then all I can say is that perhaps there are many Middle Egyptian terms uncomfortably close to Anglo-Saxon terms of the same meaning but, I daresay, this is not the place to discuss this phenomenon. Marianne Wells ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 00:10:25 GMT From: Serge Rosmorduc To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL About RB 119 >>>>> "YED" == YED writes: Hello, YED> beginning we have "mAAw sw" ; it seems to me it's an 'sw' being a object complement shows that the participle can only be active. The writting accuracy varies with time in middle egyptian, and Books of the Deads are not the best written texts as far as grammar matters. In this case, however, we have a reasonable 'w' ending for a plural --- nothing very astonishing. I wonder, and perhaps the people skilled in phonetics could help, wether the presence of the pronoun could favorise the writing of the 'w'. YED> More, only in papyrus Nu, plural ending (A1:Z2) follows "sw" YED> ; why ? may = be there is connection with the (construction YED> of) participle ? This is an interesting phenomenon with some participial phrases : the phrase mAAw-sw is take as a whole, and like a noun, receives a determinative. see Gardiner, par. 354, end of page 271 for examples. regards, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) 5, rue Beranger 92240 Malakoff tel 01 48 70 37 13 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://www.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 14:02:29 +0200 From: Jean-Pierre GUGLIELMI To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Affirmative Saida wrote: > > Dear List Members, > > As I do not have access to a Coptic dictionary here, will someone please > tell me how one says "yes" or "certainly" in Coptic? Thanks in advance. > > Marianne Wells "Yes" in copitc is : "se" writen "CE" (sigma epsilon) "yes indeed" = "se tonou" greek letters "CE TWNOY" (W=omega) "yeah !"= "sho" (sh = sh sign) ==============================================================================