Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 08:57:10 +0000 From: ROSMORDUC Serge To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL W3d-wr & the Red Sea? To correct a blunder I made about the newly found inscriptions in Mersa Gaouasis: the mention of biA-pwn.t is not that relevant, as it seems to be a different place than pwn.t itself. However, the same stela also mention pwn.t itself: rd.n Hm=f iwt(=i) r sb.t mr-pr wr snb=f r pwn.t "His Majesty has made that I drove the great steward Senebef to Punt " About the Shipwrecked Sailor: the text IMHO doesn't require nor suggest that the sailor is talking to the chief of his rescue expedition. The sailors says "let me tell you a similar case that happened to me". This supposes the chief of the expedition is completely unaware of the sailor's story, which would not be the case if he had picked him on the island of the Ka. Regards, S. Rosmorduc ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 19:37:25 +0200 From: ROSMORDUC Serge To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL W3d-wr & the Red Sea? Ann & Jon Smyth a écrit : > >> >> How does the mention of Punt correspond to that theory? It is >> not in Egypt proper, so why assume that the "isles in the midst >> of the wAD-wr" are referring to something in the delta? > > > In the Shipwrecked Sailor, the appearance of a character who announces > himself (itself) as "prince of Punt" on an island which is described > as "in w3d-wr", is the principal reason for the argument that the Red > Sea was known as "w3d-wr". The common sea-route to Punt being via the > Red Sea. > This, even though no-one would argue that the island was actually Punt > itself, but the interpretation has been adopted that wherever the > island was it must have been near Punt, ie; somewhere in the Red Sea. > A tenuous and I would say erroneous interpretation. > The two previous texts which were interpreted in a like manner I > already mentioned (May 17/06), the 12th dynasty Stela of Ameny and an > inscription by Hatshepsut at Dier el-Bahari. Neither of which actually > make the required connection between the Red Sea and "w3d-wr". > The problem is that it's rather hard to dismiss Ameny's text without performing some theoretetical acrobacies (for the AEL reader who don't know the texts, the stela, found on the bank of the red sea, mentions, in the list of an expedition's personnel "anx.w wn.w Hr idb n wAD-wr m mSa.w" "people who where on the bank of Wadj-ur as a troup"), which has been recently supplemented with a new stela from the XIIth dynasty found in Mersa Gaouasis (alongside with anchors and various materials linked to ships), and mentioning biA-pwn.t (photo in the Egypte, Afrique & Orient journal, 41 p. 25), which reads : rd.n Hm=f iwt=i r biA-pwn.t "his majesty made me go to bia-punt". Credit must be given to those who have pointed that Wadj-ur is not always the sea, but there are a number of cases where it is. In the numerous examples from religious texts given by Vanderslayen, it seems that Wadj-ur is more or less an watery emanation of the Nun, in particular, surrounding the created world. This fits both the swamps, the lakes, and the various sea they knew. Regards, S. Rosmorduc ============================================================================== From: "Jim Ashton" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL W3d-wr & the Red Sea? Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 11:55:32 +0100 When I read "shipwrecked Sailor", I get the impression that he refers to himself as "Lord of Punt" simply to emphasise the fact that he owns all the incense there and not to locate himself in Punt, or have I misunderstood? Jim Ashton ============================================================================== From: "Ann & Jon Smyth" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL W3d-wr & the Red Sea? Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:51:24 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: "ROSMORDUC Serge" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 1:37 PM Subject: Re: AEL W3d-wr & the Red Sea? > The problem is that it's rather hard to dismiss Ameny's text without > performing some theoretetical acrobacies (for the AEL reader who don't > know the texts, the stela, found on the bank of the red sea, mentions, in > the list of an expedition's personnel "anx.w wn.w Hr idb n wAD-wr m mSa.w" > "people who where on the bank of Wadj-ur as a troup"), which has been > recently supplemented with a new stela from the XIIth dynasty found in > Mersa Gaouasis (alongside with anchors and various materials linked to > ships), and mentioning biA-pwn.t (photo in the Egypte, Afrique & Orient > journal, 41 p. 25), which reads : rd.n Hm=f iwt=i r biA-pwn.t "his majesty > made me go to bia-punt". Yes, this "Stela of Ameni" is where I questioned the relationship between the shipyard /wxrwt/ and Coptos /gbtyw/. From what I have read the "people on the banks" are associated with "w3d-wr", and "w3d-wr" is associated with the shipyard. The critical issue seems to be that we are required to assume the shipyard was at Coptos. The reading being /wxrwt/n/gbtyw/ but this assumes /n/ to mean "at / of" but according to both Allen & Gardiner the usual interpretation would be "for / to". If this is the case then the shipyard was not at Coptos, the ship was built in a shipyard in "w3d-wr" for (delivery to) Coptos. As Coptos was where the expedition will commence, we don't need any theoretical acrobatics, the entire meaning hinges on the interpretation of one word (glyph). Best Wishes, Jon Smyth ============================================================================== From: "Ann & Jon Smyth" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL W3d-wr & the Red Sea? Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 09:22:25 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: "ROSMORDUC Serge" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 4:57 AM Subject: Re: AEL W3d-wr & the Red Sea? > To correct a blunder I made about the newly found inscriptions in Mersa > Gaouasis: > the mention of biA-pwn.t is not that relevant, as it seems to be a > different place than pwn.t itself. Thankyou for that. Was not /biA/ a term used for the Sinai? I think Gardiner suggested that "bi3" means "mining country", so perhaps the quote you refer to mentions two location "bi3" and "pwn.t"?, or alternately together as, "the mining country of Punt"? > However, the same stela also mention pwn.t itself: > rd.n Hm=f iwt(=i) r sb.t mr-pr wr snb=f r pwn.t > "His Majesty has made that I drove the great steward Senebef to Punt " > > About the Shipwrecked Sailor: the text IMHO doesn't require nor suggest > that the sailor is talking to the chief of his rescue expedition. The > sailors says "let me tell you a similar case that happened to me". This > supposes the chief of the expedition is completely unaware of the sailor's > story, which would > not be the case if he had picked him on the island of the Ka. Right or wrong, the Wise Servant in the opening paragraph I take to be the same person as the "Sailor" who relates the tale to the scribe Ameni. However, I take his "Lord" to be a character on land who knows nothing about either event. The Wise Servant in the opening paragraph speaks to the "Lord", "we have come back...", suggesting to me that this Lord was not part of the rescue mission. Therefore I would not have described the "Lord" as the chief of the rescue mission. Best Wishes, Jon Smyth ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 13.51 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:14:53 -0500 Exercise 13.51 snDm - become afraid cause. 3-lit. transitive *********************************************************************** 13.51 (snDm) = to sweeten ( to make or to cause to be sweet) caus. 3-lit. transitive (as always) ~active verb The honey sweetened the bread dough. Exercise 13.51 -------------- snDm: "sweeten" root class: caus 3-lit; this is a causative verb and begins with 's'. The 's' is followed by three more radicals, none of which is weak. Since it is a causative, this verb is transitive. ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 01:06:38 +0200 From: ROSMORDUC Serge To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL W3d-wr & the Red Sea? Ann & Jon Smyth a écrit : > > Yes, this "Stela of Ameni" is where I questioned the relationship > between the shipyard /wxrwt/ and Coptos /gbtyw/. > >> From what I have read the "people on the banks" are associated with > > "w3d-wr", and "w3d-wr" is associated with the shipyard. > The critical issue seems to be that we are required to assume the > shipyard was at Coptos. The reading being /wxrwt/n/gbtyw/ but this > assumes /n/ to mean "at / of" but according to both Allen & Gardiner > the usual interpretation would be "for / to". > If this is the case then the shipyard was not at Coptos, the ship was > built in a shipyard in "w3d-wr" for (delivery to) Coptos. > As Coptos was where the expedition will commence, we don't need any > theoretical acrobatics, the entire meaning hinges on the > interpretation of one word (glyph). > > Best Wishes, Jon Smyth The writing "n" for "nywt" (the indirect genitive fem. plur.) is certainly not the rule in good Middle Egyptian, but it is not unheard of either. See Gardiner, § 86 and Allen, p. 41., end of section 4.13. So, grammatically, it's reasonable to assume the "n" denotes an indirect genitive. Regards, S. Rosmorduc ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLPHSTUDY COLLATION 13.54 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:37:04 -0500 13.54 sxpr c3 lit transitive 13.54 -sxpr -causative triliteral (caus. 3-lit.) -intransitive -Allen, in the exercise, gives translation as "bring about." He further states in the introduction to causatives (before 13.5.9) that sxpr means "bring about, cause to happen," from xpr "evolve, happen, occur." Since it is a causative verb form based on the triliteral xpr, it could be "literally" translated, using the dictionary translation of xpr, as "cause to evolve, cause to happen, cause to occur, cause to grow up." 13.54 bring about (make become, create) sxpr S29 - L1 - D21 verb causative 3-lit transitive Verb takes an object "bring about something" ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 13.58 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 17:45:12 -0500 13.58 sti to shoot 3ae inf. transitive (shoot something) Exercise 13.58 -------------- stj: "shoot" root class: In spite of the fact that this verb starts with 's', this is not a causative verb. This can be seen from the translation "shoot", which doesn't represent the causation of an action. This verb has three radicals where the third is the weak consonant 'j', so the root class is 3ae-inf. This is primarily a transitive verb and typically takes a direct object that specifies the thing shot. Exercise 13.58 stj - shoot 3ae-inf. transitive (not causative, according to Faulkner) ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 13.56 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 17:03:40 -0500 13.56 sxr = fell, overthrow transitivecaus. 2-lit (causative biliteral) 13.56 sxr 3-lit: it has three radicals and the third is not weak. Transitive: to overthrow (something or someone) takes a direct object. ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 13.59 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 18:56:36 -0500 Exercise 13.59 -------------- sDr: "lie down, spend the night" root class: 3-lit; this verb has three radicals, none of which is weak. This is an intransitive verb. ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 13.55 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:48:39 -0500 13.55. sxm "gain control" 3-LIT. intransitive Although there is a verb 'xm' (p.465), this is not a causative verb derived from it. The two words are written differently and are unrelated in meaning. Also all causitive verbs are transitive, but this is an intransitive verb. To specify something over which control is gained Egyptian uses a phrase with the preposition 'm' (p.467), not a direct object. ************************************************ 13.55 gain control sxm S29 - S42 - J1 - G17 - D40 or S42 - G17 - A24 verb 3-lit intrans This was confusing for me. The gaining of control seems to refer to the subject gaining "control" i.e. having control, a noun, not controlling something or someone. Faulkner translates the sxm as "have power" Gardiner translates sxm as "have power" also. ( He adds that "m sxm" means "have power over" something or someone. In this case I think sxm becomes a noun not a verb and the object of the preposition "m".) Both Faulkner and Gardner translate "control" as "xrp" in the sense of a controller or administrator controling or governing. ********************************************** 13.55 sxm "gain, have control" 3-lit. (triliteral)intransitive Spelled:S29(s)-S42(sxm)-Aa1(x)-G17(m)-D40(determinative:FORCE) Note: The dictionary states that to express "gain/havecontrol _of_something" one must use m (G17) for "of." ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 13.52 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 16:29:55 -0500 13.52 srwj = remove caus 3ae-inf (causative third weak) Causitive verbs are uniformally transitive Allen 13.5.12 ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 13.57 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 17:11:49 -0500 13.57 sSmi to lead caus. - 3-lit (Smi = to walk) transitive as all caus. Verbs 13.57 sSmj lead caus. 3ae-inf. transitive 8.12 states the example sxpj is lead from xpj walk. 13.57 sSmi = leadtransitivecaus. 3ae-inf (causative of 3ae-inf. roots) ============================================================================== From: Ogden Goelet To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 04:17:53 -0400 Subject: Re: AEL W3d-wr & the Red Sea? Dear AEL Listers, I would like to add a few remarks to this thread about wAD-wr and the Red Sea, having published an article many years ago on this subject ["WAD-wr and Lexicographical Method," in U. Luft, ed., The Intellectual Heritage of Egypt (K=E1kosy Fs.). Studia Aegyptiaca 14 (Budapest 1992) 205-214]. I shall separate my remarks into two e-mails, because the second part of my thoughts, which deal with expeditions to Punt, Koptos, and the Wadi Gawasus is long-ish. (1) The Shipwrecked Sailor The opening lines are narrated by the Smsw-iqr, a rather bland term which means something like "the efficient servant / functionary." He is apparently attempting to calm down an expedition leader who has returned home from a less-than-successful expedition, which luckily has returned with its entire force intact. The precise place from where this expedition has returned is never explained, but apparently it is somewhere from below the southern border, since the expedition has passed Bigga, which lies just south of Aswan. There is no reference to "rowing a long time." The expedition has probably landed near the Residence, which would probably refer to Lisht during the Middle Kingdom when the story was written. The Smsw-iqr tells the expedition leader, who is apparently fearful that he has to report his failure to the king, not to worry, because he himself has been in a similar situation--i.e. an expedition that has met with misfortune. As he puts it, "... may I relate the like that happened to me..." There is no implication that the current expedition and the Smsw-iqr's expedition to Punt had anything to do with each other, and that includes the route. These are two separate events and, I would suggest, involved two different routes. The Smsw-iqr begins by saying that he "went off to the mine- country of the Sovereign (Sm.kw r bjA n Jty) and (h3.kw r wAD-wr m dpt) I went down to the sea in a boat." He is eventually shipwrecked when his boat is swamped by a large wave. While on the island he encounters a god who manifests himself in the form of a large snake. He later indentifies himself as follows: jnk js HqA Pwnt "I am indeed the ruler of Punt," and admonishes the sailor for promising to bring his various things that are very common to that country, (j)n wr n.k antyw xpr.t(i) nb snTr "Is it (now) the case that you have much myrrh, and you have become a possessor of incense?" i.e. are you (the shipwrecked Smsw- iqr) suddenly pretending to have all the produce of my own country? The Snake God therefore is also chiding the Smsw-iqr for effectively promising to "carry coals to Newcastle," or, to use a more ancient equivalent "bring owls to Athens." Ogden Goelet ============================================================================== From: Ogden Goelet To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2006 11:29:32 -0400 Subject: RE: AEL W3d-wr & the Red Sea? Dear AEL listers, I was going to produce a rather lengthy discussion of the texts that mention travel to the wAD-wr, but, as the great Gershwin song goes, "Summertime and the livin' is easy ..." Instead, I will just reproduce some passages from the article that I wrote many years ago that deal with the key point, namely the significance of the verbs used in those contexts, then conclude with a few excerpts that address the underlying lexicographical methodology that Vandersleyen has used. I would like to emphasize that although I was discussing just one text in the remarks below, these observations could be applied to several other texts, including the description of the R. III expedition that appears in the Harris Papyrus: Lexicographical questions can seldom be answered by examining only the word or words under investigation. Often, as in the present instance [I was discussing here the inscription of Henu which was found in situ in the Wadi Hammamat], other terms as well as the very context in which they appear can play a significant role in the process. The key verbs of motion in Henu's inscription - pri and hAi - form a well-known pair of antonyms respectively meaning "to go up, ascend" and "to go down, descend," or just simply "go" and "come = back." These two verbs, either singly or together, are used during the period from the Old to the Middle Kingdoms in many of the graffiti left by quarrying expeditions at such places as Hatnub, the Wadi Hammamat and the Wadi el-Hudi to describe the trip into the desert and the return to the Nile Valley. In the present inscription pri and hAi apparently refer to Henu's journey upland from Koptos into the Wadi Hammamat and his return back to Koptos where he started. As we know from their frequent use in the appel aux vivants, Egyptian texts are much more apt to use the contrasting pair xd "to go downstream/northwards" and xnty "to go downstream/ southwards," when referring to travel north and south along the Nile valley, by boat or otherwise. In this text the association of pri with travel into the desert seems insured not only by the designation of Koptos as the starting point, but also by the association of the "rulers dwelling in the Red Land" with that part of the trip. Bearing in mind this specialized usage of the verbs pri and hAi, we can summarize Henu's itinerary in and out of the Wadi Hammamat. After describing his royal commission, Henu starts his travel narrative by setting out (pri m) from Koptos, the logical place to begin if one's intent was to travel through the Wadi Hammamat and/or the Wadi Gawâsîs. He dug wells or cisterns along his route before the reached the wAD wr, where he built the ships his commission called for. He then descended (hAi m) from WAg and(?) the Wadi Hammamat, perhaps stopping to quarry stones along the way. In fact, it seems likely that the present graffito was inscribed at this juncture. That this inscription describes or implies any extensive travel along the Nile in the execution of Henu's commission seems most improbable. Whatever the word may mean elsewhere, wAD-wr almost surely refers to the Red Sea and not the Nile in this inscription and this context. Then, my summary of the R. III expedition: Not only is the itinerary here quite clearly delineated, but also many aspects of this Dynasty XX narrative parallel Henu's inscription. Wherever Punt may have been located, once Ramesses III's expedition had returned from there, it landed in the hill country (x3st) of Koptos, a statement which in itself would make travel along the Nile inefficient and improbable for the return leg of the journey, especially if a northern canal between the Red Sea and the Nile had existed at the time. The goods were removed from the ships, then loaded on men and donkeys for the intermediate trip overland (m oryt) to the Nile quay at Koptos (or itrw mrit). At that point the goods were (re-)loaded on ships bound northwards (m xd) for the royal residence. Although this Ramesside text does not mention the wAD-wr, it nonetheless lends more weight to the theory that one section of the route taken by products from Punt involved an overland journey from the Red Sea shore to Koptos. This does not exclude the possibility that there may have been other ways products from that distant land reached Egypt, such as direct or indirect trade along the Nile. These considerations lead me to believe strongly that the discussion of Punt's location, Punt-trade and the wAD-wr have been hampered by desires to find only one solution to the problems involved in each question. My remarks on some of the Wadi G. texts (but not the more recent discovereies, nor the recent find of a disassembled ship there, which would strengthen these observations considerably): Most of the inscription describes the journey in the form of a royal command that presumably was carried out as exactly as Intf-iqr had been charged. The clear implication of the first part of this text is that the ships were first prefabricated at the dockyards of Koptos, then later put together close to where the commemorative stela was erected. It is unclear whether the vizier did more than organize the work=3B the actual construction seems to have been supervised by the herald Ameny and was done "on the shore (idb) of the wAD-wr." Once the ships had been assembled, the inscription states that they were dispatched (sbi) to Punt and returned back to the Wadi Gawâsîs area. The return journey implied by this procedure would have required a trip back overland, which would be similar to the Wadi Hammamat route described in both the inscription of Henu and Papyrus Harris I. Given the location of Intf-iqr's stela, it would take an enormous stretch of the imagination to suppose that wAD-wr in this case refers either to the Nile or the Delta rather than the nearby Red Sea. In addition to Intf-iqr's stela, several more objects have been found at Mersa Gawâsîs or else can be firmly attributed to this site. The inscribed material firmly establishes the nautical nature of this site. There are several mentions of boats or titles connected with them. A particularly interesting piece of evidence is a shrine that was formed out of slab stelae and seven heavy stone anchors, erected on behalf of a man called anxw. Although these various objects provide more evidence concerning the role this small harbor and refuge had in Punt trade and Red Sea travel, none use the word w3z- wr, and consequently will not be treated here. On the other hand, these texts employ other words such as nnw and Sn-wr which many authors have also connected with "sea" or "ocean," material which I hope to examine elsewhere at a later date. Given all these undeniable nautical connections, can we really believe that all the textual material found at Mersa Gawâsîs never referred to the most salient geographic feature of the site -- the Red Sea? If so, I am reminded here of a humorous poem: "Mother may I go out to swim? Yes, my darling daughter: Hang your clothes on a hickory limb And don't go near the water." And finally, a few remarks on the lexicography of Nibbi and Vandersleyen: 4. WAD-wr and Lexicographical Method In my discussion of wAD-wr above I have deliberately treated only a few examples of its usage. I have neither sought all meanings of wAD-wr nor the one meaning of the term. Instead, I have attempted to consider only a few aspects of a large corpus of material. However, in lexicography selectivity is normally the order of the day. As I have intimated above, some of the treatments of w3z-wr have been marred by an attempt to assign it only one meaning. Although I believe that wAD-wr often means "sea" or "ocean," I would be very surprized to find that it means that alone in every instance. Words occur in contexts, and from context to context words can change their meanings, sometimes dramatically. A canon produced by a synod of bishops, for instance, is not as pleasant-sounding as one created by Bach. Every language, furthermore, has words whose meaning has changed over the course of time. In the case of wAD wr, the picture is quite confused. C. Favane-Meeks has shown how that word refers to the Delta and its environs in a number of religious texts beginning with the Middle Kingdom and extending into the Late Period. However, if I understand her arguments correctly, she also believes that at other times and in different contexts the term can be used to describe the Mediterranean Sea as well. Working with yet another essentially religious source, H. Beinlich has recently shown that wAD-wr certainly is used to mean as a word for the Fayyum in the so-called Fayyum Papyrus. In my discussion of a few Middle Kingdom texts from the Wadi Hammamat above, I showed how wAD-wr refered to the Red Sea in those inscriptions. Since the material is, to say the least, diachronic and involves a different genre of texts in each instance, clearly there is no way in which these meanings can, or should be reconciled. A tenacious and often dogmatic insistance that wAD-wr have only one meaning, and that the Egyptians never had anything to do with the sea, is reminiscent of a famous incident that occurred while Ludwig Wittgenstein was attending one of Bertrand Russell's classes at Oxford. Wittgenstein, who believed that nothing empirical was knowable, once responded to Russell's statement that there was no rhinoceros in the lecture hall by stubbornly looking under each desk and chair in the room. A single approach to a complex problem does not result in a logical methodology. I apologize for my long-windedness here, but I think that the remarks as a whole, especially in connection with the verb pair pri and hAi are quite important to the question at hand. Ogden Goelet ============================================================================== From: "A. K. Eyma" To: Subject: Re: AEL W3d-wr & the Red Sea? Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 00:02:24 +0200 >A tenacious and often dogmatic insistance that wAD-wr have >only one meaning, ... A single approach to a complex problem >does not result in a logical methodology. **Very true - and if I may be so bold: to what silliness that can lead can be seen in the work of Nibbi. And as someone wrote here: it needs a lot of "acrobatics" to cram every evidence (cq explain not fitting evidence away) into one meaning, be it "only Delta/Nile" or "only sea". That geographical terms often shift in time, when the worldview of the users widens, also can be seen in other concepts, like eg the Keftiu (an issue Jon and others 'battled' about on another forum) or the Haunebu (another hairy term, connected with the w3D-wr). I personally feel that the term was indeed originally applied to the outstretched reed fields of the Delta islands, as a kind of psychological boundary to the north AND to the east (Bitter Lakes) of Egypt. A vague and semi-mythical /symbolic term in the Nine Bows sphere. It is only logical that when the worldview widened, that it began to include those other northern islands (of the Aegean!). In the same vein, the gulfs of the Red Sea and the Sea itself (of which the water is probably green) as extension of the Bitter Lakes got included into the term. (Something similar you see in the Hebrew term Yam Suf (Reed Sea), originally refering to the Bitter Lakes, but in later times also to the Red Sea up to the Gulf of Eilath, even though the term in meaning is quite inappropriate for salt water.) That the original more confined and mythical meaning of wAD-wr was preserved in religious texts should not surprise us. (I'm not fully sure what meaning applies in the PTs. The association with Osiris makes reed fields perhaps more likely, which as seen above "encircle" the north of Egypt. I'm hesitant to project the concept of an oceanos on AE texts. But I'm not sure.) As to the Shipwrecked Sailor: I think the most straightforward interpretation is that the destiny was Sinai (mine country), after first decending overland to the coast to take a ship; that a storm at sea (that kind of waves are hard to imagine on the Nile) drove the ship south, to an island that was thought to be in the larger Punt region (hence the snake's title), so in the vague south-east, and then the Sailor had to sail "north" back home as the story tells. Also, the snake and other symbolisms are Solar, and thus fit the Ta-netjer concept (bountiful regions of Re, of sunrise), like Lebanon and Punt did -- i.e. to the east of Egypt, not just the south (Nubia). Yes, you can all explain it away, but why would one? I do not think one would if there was no dogma to save. Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 13.72 Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 02:54:03 -0500 13.72 dr 2-lit: has two radicals Transitive: to remove (something) takes a direct object 13.72 dr = remove, repulse transitive 2-lit. ( biliteral ) ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 13.68 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:07:52 -0500 13.68 gmgm = smash ABAB = 4-lit Transitive eg He smashed the rock - the action is transferred to the object 13.68 gmgm = smash 4-lit quadriteral - verb with four radicals ABCD or ABAB) this being ABAB Transitive Allen 13.5.6 ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 13.69 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:27:38 -0500 13.69 gr = become still AB = 2-lit Intransitive e.g. The crowd became still - action is not transferred to an object ***************************************************************** 13.69 gr 2 lit intransitive 13.69 gr - to be silent. Two radicals, both of them normal (not weak). So it's a biliteral (2-lit.) The definition shows it to be an intransitive verb. ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 13.70 Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 02:50:24 -0500 13.70 tmm 2ae gem transitive *********************************************************** 13.70. tmm "close, shut" 2AE-GEM. transitive The pattern of this verb is ABB; so it belongs to the 2AE-GEM. (second-geminate) class. This is a transitive verb: one always closes or shuts something e.g. a door, your mouth. 13.70 tmm "close, shut" 2ae-gem. (second geminate) ABB transitive (close/shut "something") Spelled: X1(t):U15(tm)-G17(m)-G17(m)-A24(determinative=FORCE/EFFORT) ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 13.71 Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 02:52:48 -0500 13.71. Tzj "pick up" 3AE-INF. transitive Another verb with with the pattern ABj. Like nearly all verbs with this pattern, it belongs to the 3AE-INF. (third-weak) class. Picking up is an action performed on something, e.g. "Jack picks up litter". So this is a transitive verb. 13.71 pick up (lift) Tzj V13 - O34 - T14 - D40 (j weak - not glyphed) verb 3ae-inf transitive verb takes an object ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 13.60 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 19:06:20 -0500 13.60 Smj - to walk, to go. Three radicals, the last one the weak consonant 'j'. That makes it a third-weak (intransitive) verb. ************************************************************* 13.60 smj = go, walk 3ae-inf (third-weak ABj) Intransitive Allen 13.5.4 ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 13.61 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 19:32:22 -0500 13.61 Smsj = follow ABCj = 4ae-inf Transitive eg I followed the procession - does not effect the object *********************************************************** 13.61Smsj"follow"4ae-inf. (fourth weak verb) ABCjtransitive (follow "something/one") Spelled: T18(Sms)-S29(s)-D54(determinative: MOTION)(see dictionary for alternate spelling) 13.61 Smsj - to follow.First off, it's transitive (follow the leader, follow the yellow brick road) A) How many radicals? 4.B) Is the first radical 's'? No, so it isn't a causative.C) Is the last radical weak? Yes. So, it's a weak quadriliteral (4ae-inf.) ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 13.62 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 19:43:58 -0500 13.62 Szp 3 lit transitive 13.62 receive Szp O43 - Q3 - D40 verb 3-lit transitive verb takes an object. 13.62 Szp "receive, accept" 3-lit. (triliteral verb) ABC transitive (accept "something") Spelled: O43(Szp)-Q3(p):D40(determinative=EFFORT/FORCE) ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 13.65 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 20:40:56 -0500 13.65 qd build 2lit transitive Action of the verb is transferred to an object. HMWK 13.65 qd = build transitive 2-lit. ( biliteral ) HMWK 13.65 Exercise 13.65 qd - build 2-lit. transitive ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 13.66 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:01:20 -0500 13.66 qdd to sleep 2ae gem intransitive 13.66 qdd - sleep 2ae-gem. intransitive ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 13.67 Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2006 21:04:33 -0500 13.67 gmj = find 3ae-inf Third weak verb with three radicals in which the third radical is the weak consonant j Transitive Allen 13.5.4 Exercise 13.67 -------------- gmj: "find" root class: 3ae-inf; this verb has three radicals, and the last one is the weak consonant 'j' This is a transitive verb; it takes a direct object that specifies the object that is found. ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 13.73 Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 03:13:42 -0500 13.73 DAi to cross 3ae inf transitive (to cross something) 13.73 DAj cross 3ae-inf. transitive Action transferred to an object. 13.73 DAi = cross transitive 3ae-inf = verbs with three radicals in which the third radical is the weak consonant i or w (ABi, ABw) ============================================================================== From: "KMOTC" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL ALLEN GLYPHSTUDY COLLATION 13.74 Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 03:16:31 -0500 Exercise 13.74 -------------- Dd: "say, speak" root class: 2-lit; this verb consists of two radicals This is primarily a transitive verb. ============================================================================== From: "Ann & Jon Smyth" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL W3d-wr & the Red Sea? Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 12:51:52 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ogden Goelet" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 11:29 AM Subject: RE: AEL W3d-wr & the Red Sea? > He dug wells or cisterns along his route >before the reached the wAD wr, where he built the ships his commission >called for. He then descended (hAi m) from WAg and(?) the Wadi >Hammamat, perhaps stopping to quarry stones along the way. In fact, >it seems likely that the present graffito was inscribed at this >juncture. That this inscription describes or implies any extensive >travel along the Nile in the execution of Henu's commission seems most >improbable. Whatever the word may mean elsewhere, wAD-wr almost >surely refers to the Red Sea and not the Nile in this inscription and >this context. ---------- Dear Ogden & group. Very much appreciated, an interesting read. As I agree that in this particular case the inclusion of "w3d-wr" would likely imply the Red Sea, I had to look this inscription up. It appears in Denkmaller, II, 150 a, if anyone is interested, and I hope so because I would appreciate some input from yourself and anyone who can add some clarification. This address only gets you so far.. http://edoc3.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/lepsius/tafelwa2.html you must be sure to also 'click' on the following: - ABTHEILUNG II - BAND IV - Seite 150a May I ask, is Lepsius copy corrupt? The glyphs I think that are being interpreted as "w3d-wr" appear to be, M12 - G36 - N37. xA/wr/sTAt (is this not a measure?) It is possible that N37 is a poorly drawn N36 "mr" (canal), but regardless, unless Lepsius hand rendition is corrupt I have never seen "w3d-wr" rendered in such a way. How sure are we that this set of glyphs represent "w3d-wr", and by what examples? Thanks, Jon Smyth ============================================================================== From: Ogden Goelet To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2006 10:20:31 -0400 Subject: Re: AEL W3d-wr & the Red Sea? Dear Jon and others, The inscription in question --"Hammamat 114"--was much more accurately copied, photographed and published elsewhere. I would be hesitant to rely on Lepsius. The reference I have for the text itself, which was accopanied by a photograph of the entire inscription, is: J. Couyat and P. Montet, _Les inscriptions hi=E9roglyphiques et hi=E9ratiques du Ouâdi Hammâmât._ MIFAO 34 (Cairo 1912-1914) 81-84, with pl. 31. If you wish, I could e-mail a PDF file to you with the entire article, references and al. It would not, however, have the pagination of the work as it was published in the Kakosy Fs. There were not many glyphs in it, but I had to remove even these few because I am not in NYC at the moment and far away from the sources on which I based the article. Nonetheless, the relevant texts are transliterated. Some of the texts in question have been discussed many, many times, so the presence of wAD-wr is not in question in the sources I used, even if other parts of these texts have long posed problems. Ogden Goelet ============================================================================== From: "Ann & Jon Smyth" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL W3d-wr & the Red Sea? Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2006 10:49:49 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ogden Goelet" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 11:29 AM Subject: RE: AEL W3d-wr & the Red Sea? >The clear implication of the first part of this >text is that the ships were first prefabricated at the dockyards of >Koptos, then later put together close to where the commemorative stela >was erected. It is unclear whether the vizier did more than organize >the work; the actual construction seems to have been supervised by the >herald Ameny and was done "on the shore (idb) of the wAD-wr." Once >the ships had been assembled, the inscription states that they were >dispatched (sbi) to Punt and returned back to the Wadi Gawâsîs area. >The return journey implied by this procedure would have required a >trip back overland, which would be similar to the Wadi Hammamat route >described in both the inscription of Henu and Papyrus Harris I. Given >the location of Intf-iqr's stela, it would take an enormous stretch of >the imagination to suppose that wAD-wr in this case refers either to >the Nile or the Delta rather than the nearby Red Sea. ----- Dear Ogden. You are likely aware of Vandersleyen's opinion concerning the use of this text as evidence that the Red Sea was known as "w3d-wr", though others may not be so. Prof. Vandersleyen calls upon the analysis of this text by Claude Obsomer in 1995, and consequently he agree's that the initial building of the fleet was done in shipyards at Coptos, the fleet then dissassembled, transported through the wadi Hammammat and re-assembled near to the site where the stela was located. However, Vandersleyen differs with respect to the presence of the official assembly from Abydos (Great Council of Ta-wr, Head of the south). This assembly, which may have included the vizier Ante-foker himself was not present on the banks of "w3d-wr" to supervise but must have been present for some official occation. Such an occation would be the completion of the project and perhaps the official launch, even if only ceremonial in nature, the distance from Abydos to Coptos is roughly 120 km and it is quite within reason to expect an assembly to appear for the ceremonial launch. Vandersleyen suggests that any hypothesis which requires this official assembly from Abydos to venture a further 180 km or so on an arduous journey through the wadi Hammammat and maintain both them and the 3756 other persons in the desert is "irrational", to say the least. Vandersleyen writes: La "foule" présente où se faisait le travail est impressionnante; il y a là notamment ce "Conseil des Grands de "Ta-wr" de la Tête du Sud" "Ta-wr" est le nom du nome d'Abydos. On peut admettre que les Grands de "Ta-wr" se soient déplacés jusqu'à Coptos pour assister à la construction des bateaux, c'est-à-dire en remontant le Nil sur une distance d'environ 120km, mais ce Conseil a-t-il traversé quelque 180 km de désert inconfortable pour aller aux bords de la mer Rouge assister au remontage des bateaux de l'expédition, travail d'une durée inconnue ?De même entretenir 3756 personnes en un lieu aussi désertique pendant qu' "Ameny était occupé à construire ces bateaux" serait assez irrationnel. Although I do think he makes a good point, I do not think it is a significant argument, certainly not enough to counter the "w3d-wr" = Red Sea proposal. However, I think if we are to entertain this text as interpreted above then some questions must be asked. This hypothesis presumes that the stela in question found at the Red Sea end of the wadi was the only one created, in fact if there was a second copy erected at Coptos, the hypothesis would fall apart. Knowing how frequently we find multiple copies of the same royal inscriptions then we might ask why would this surviving copy be erected in such an out of the way location? I suggest that this stela may be one of a pair, the first erected at the more populous end of the wadi at Coptos, and subsequently lost to posterity, the second erected at the Wadi Gawasus, and due to its out of the way location, has survived. The main flaw however, is that the Herald Ameny has been assigned a once in a lifetime task, one that will earn him a place in the annals of history. The responsibilities assigned to Ameny then would be to procure the timbers, design and build a most prestigious fleet for a very auspicious occation, but, for some inexplicable reason he fails to make any mention of it. There is much more prestige to be had when the world learns he was responsible for designing & building the initial fleet of ships, as opposed to telling us all that he only re-assembled them. That is what I find wrong with the hypothesis present above. I suggest: The Herald Ameny was commissioned to supervise the design and construction of this royal fleet. This was carried out at the shipyard (at/of) Coptos. At the appointed time an official assembly arrived from Abydos to witness the ceremonial launch of, either the fleet as a whole or the principal vessel (we have no idea the number of ships involved). After which the fleet was disassembled, loaded for transportation through the wadi Hammammat then re-assembled at the port by the Red Sea. The stela, I speculate one of an initial pair, actually describes the construction carried out at Coptos, in the shipyard by "w3d-wr". The subsequent dismantling, transportation & re-assembly is of no consequence and is not recorded. As far as the royal scribe is concerned these technicalities are not worthy of note as they are accounted for under the auspices of "building the fleet". This stela then identifies the Nile as "w3d-wr", and not, as previously proposed, the Red Sea. Very Best Wishes, Jon Smyth. ============================================================================== From: Ogden Goelet To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2006 13:18:50 -0400 Subject: Re: AEL W3d-wr & the Red Sea? Dear Jon, Please consider the use of the verb pair h3i "to descend," i.e. into the desert NOT go down (south) along the Nile=3B and pri "to ascend," i.e. go up into the desert. This pair appears in many of the texts that deal with the wAD-wr and with the Wadi Hammamat -- many of Vandersleyen's proposals fail on this significant point. In addition, what the devil is that boat doing disassembled at the Wadi Gawasis? What were all those stelae doing there? Perhaps that hippo is under the next desk? Sincerely, Ogden Goelet ============================================================================== From: "Ann & Jon Smyth" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Aayko (was: AEL W3d-wr & the Red Sea?) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 18:56:17 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: "A. K. Eyma" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 6:02 PM Subject: Re: AEL W3d-wr & the Red Sea? > I personally feel that the term was indeed originally applied to > the outstretched reed fields of the Delta islands, as a kind of > psychological boundary to the north AND to the east (Bitter > Lakes) of Egypt. A vague and semi-mythical /symbolic term > in the Nine Bows sphere. > It is only logical that when the worldview widened, that it > began to include those other northern islands (of the Aegean!). Dear Aayko Just to clarify, I am more interested in isolating those few inscriptions that do most likely refer to the Nile or the Delta. Not that I feel "w3d-wr" only means Nile or Delta. The conventional view espoused for the past hundred or so years has been reflected in the numerous translations which from Breasted through to Pritchard and prettywell most publications inbetween, including I think all hieroglyphic dictionaries up to the present, "w3d-wr" has been translated as "sea". This, is what needs reviewing, conventional wisdom needs to relax and accept a broader interpretation, and I don't think this will happen until we see this change reflected in such works as Hannig's dictionary. From reading Vandersleyen's work, which is not a preference of mine but, I am not aware of any other study that has come close to reviewing the subject to the extent that Professor Vandersleyen has. From reading his work I can easily see that in many cases the Delta is referred to as "w3d-wr", however, it also appears to be a term used for the Nile and many parts of the Egyptian terrain that is watered by the Nile. Places such as the Faiyum, and several eastern canals around Heliopolis. Because of this I suspect "w3d-wr" refers to the Nile, but only in flood season, hence it will also extend to the Delta, Faiyum and canal zones. I think it might be interesting to look at the few inscriptions that mention w3d-wr in a present context to see if they are all datable to the inundation (Axt) season, or perhaps those that mention w3d-wr in a recently past context, like recently following an expedition where the inscription might be dated to the end of the inundation season or perhaps early in the Harvest (prt) season. Something for a rainy day perhaps? The Nile may have been known by different names in different seasons, we might think of Horus, as a child, at sunrise, at sunset, etc. Different aspects carry different names, then likewise possibly the Nile too. We know the Nile was simply "ijtrw" in some cases, but "Hapy" in others, perhaps w3d-wr is a term which has been missed. And, if this appears to be the case then it will not require any giant leap of faith to see why some scribes may have regarded the eastern end of the Mediterranean as also part of w3d-wr - after all it was fed by the Nile. Where would an ancient scribe draw the line between the 'ends' (limits) of the Nile basin in flood season and the beginning of the Mediterranean? We can view the Med. Sea from space but the ancients viewed the Mediterranean from the shoreline, a much more difficult perspective when trying to determine a dividing line, hence Cyprus, in the eyes of a scribe, may have been "in the midst of w3d-wr". The scribe thinks the Nile in flood extends all the way "out to the north". Best Wishes, Jon Smyth ============================================================================== From: "Ann & Jon Smyth" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Ships of the Desert? (was: AEL W3d-wr & the Red Sea?) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 17:30:52 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ogden Goelet" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 1:18 PM Subject: Re: AEL W3d-wr & the Red Sea? >Dear Jon, >Please consider the use of the verb pair h3i "to descend," i.e. >into the desert NOT go down (south) along the Nile; and pri "to >ascend," i.e. go up into the desert. Dear Ogden. Yes, I agree. Just thumbing through Allen to confirm the above. Can I ask though, doesn't "h3.w", "h3y", or "h33.(w)" meaning "descend/ded" infer a northern orientation (ie; down/back?), likewise "pri" is to "ascend", to go south (ie; up/forward?). Given that the Egyptian worldly orientation was to the south and that south was also "forward", I would have expected this to also be "up"? >This pair appears in many of the >texts that deal with the wAD-wr and with the Wadi Hammamat -- many of >Vandersleyen's proposals fail on this significant point. Well, in all fairness, the work I am reading, W3d-wr, Another aspect of the valley of the Nile, Vandersleyen is not translating the inscriptions himself he is merely using the latest translation of the respective authors who publish the inscriptions. So I can't see how he is influencing the translations or making failed proposals in this work. >In addition, what the devil is that boat doing disassembled at the Wadi >Gawasis? A disassembled boat at a coastal location is not so challenging, we cannot know if that boat was being taken apart for revamping, possibly the boatmen removing the best parts for another ship. Has this ship simply fallen apart?, perhaps it was in the process of being built but left unfinished. I must confess I would need to know more about the find to make a better judgement. However, if you were to find a disassembled boat in the middle of wadi Hammamat, that might be "checkmate" on your part. :-) Didn't Thutmosis III use boats on one of his campaigns said to have been at the Euphrates? I don't recall any mention of disassembling boats or even transporting boats on any Egyptian campaign in northern Syria/ Palestine. Why would he even take them with him, did he know the Euphrates was up ahead, or was it normal practice to include ships on foreign campaigns? - they never wrote about them either, so I wouldn't be too concerned that the ships built by Ameny at Coptos were not written about as being transported intact across the desert - apparently it was normal practice. A little bit of trivia, were you aware that the wadi Kena (near Kuft) has flooded to a considerable depth in modern times, and that the remains of an ancient dam has been unearthed in the wadi Garawi, just south of Cairo. Ameny may not have had to haul his few ships (Hatshepsut had three for her voyage to Punt, I think) all the way across the dry desert. Depending on what time of year it was he may have taken advantage of the Nile floods which often filled these wadi's for some considerable distance into the desert. Points to consider I guess. All the best, Jon Smyth ============================================================================== From: "Ann & Jon Smyth" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Rock Drawings? (was: AEL W3d-wr & the Red Sea?) Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2006 09:23:37 -0400 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ogden Goelet" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 1:18 PM Subject: Re: AEL W3d-wr & the Red Sea? Dear Jon, >Please consider the use of the verb pair h3i "to descend," i.e. >into the desert NOT go down (south) along the Nile; and pri "to >ascend," i.e. go up into the desert. This pair appears in many of the >texts that deal with the wAD-wr and with the Wadi Hammamat -- many of >Vandersleyen's proposals fail on this significant point. In addition, >what the devil is that boat doing disassembled at the Wadi Gawasis? >What were all those stelae doing there? Dear Ogden. One of the drawbacks I frequently come across during the process of interpreting ancient writings is that rarely do our interpretations begin with a clean slate so to speak. We begin, in most case, with some well formed assumption already in hand - agreed? The question I must ask is, "does the interpretation of this stela of Ameny come with any well formed assumptions?" Regardless of whom I read from Breasted through to today including Obsomer, Vandersleyen and of course, your good self, we (myself included) have all *assumed* these ships were "dismantled, transported and re-assembled" at the Red Sea port. This *assumption* is also required in order to interpret the "assembly" mentioned in the stela as referring to "re-assembly at the Red Sea". I also noticed in your paraphrase of this inscription you used the word "assembly" instead of "construction", perhaps in order to lead the reader down a particular path? By what example do we *assume* these ships were actually dismantled after they were constructed at Coptos? Dear Ogden, are you aware that the many wadi's in the eastern desert, Hammamat included, are repleat with ancient artwork dating from even the pre-dynastic period, which show two methods of journeying through these regions? May I humbly suggest two works which may throw some light on this issue, Travels in the Upper Egyptian Desert, Weigall, 1909, and, Rock Drawings of Southern Upper Egypt, 2 vol. Winkler, 1938-9. Both these works show ample evidence that the ancients were able to actually manouver (I hesitate to use the word 'sail',) very large ships along these wadi's, presumably at certain times of the year. But, for the sake of this discussion, these rock drawings also show many examples of "stick" men towing these large vessels by hand. In no case is there any evidence to suggest boats were taken apart and transported in pieces. We must ask ourselves, is this "disassembly" of boats simply another case of modern man imposing his technology on the ancient world? Do we have any ancient reference to support your (everyone's) assumption that these ships built by Ameny at Coptos *may* have been taken apart for the journey across the desert? I prefer to argue by example, I can show examples of complete ships being man-handled across the desert, can you show any examples (by text or relief) of ships in pieces being transported in the same way? If not - the "re-assembly at the Red Sea" argument is sunk !, hence the stela *must* refer to the initial construction at the shipyards of Coptos, at the banks of W3d-wr on the Nile - agreed? Very Best Wishes, and have a great weekend, Jon Smyth ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 16:06:01 -0400 From: "ARTHUR MOSS" Subject: Re: Ships of the Desert? (was: AEL W3d-wr & the Red Sea?) To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" I honestly don't know very many ancient egyptian words, but the title of this email caught my eye. I recently learned in Hebrew School that camels are sometimes called the Hebrew equivalent of "ships of the desert." I don't know whether this really pertains to the discussion or not, but I thought that I'd throw it out there... ============================================================================== From: "Ann & Jon Smyth" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Henu, and the first Punt expedition. Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 10:26:44 -0400 Dear Ogden & Members. I must confess the Henu inscription which I already agreed appears to suggest an equation between w3d-wr and the Red Sea, is a real challenge to interpret if I am correctly contesting the equation. Perhaps I am wrong, but having taken a quick perusal at the texts I have noted some very basic questions that I think must be considered while interpreting this text. First of all, Henu was "sent" to dispatch a ship to Punt, but from where was Henu sent?, what direction was Henu initially travelling from? Would we be correct in assuming the royal house of the Mentuhoteps at the end of the 11th dynasty was at Thebes? If Henu was dispatched from Thebes, why then does he go to Coptos if he is to journey through the wadi Hammamat to the Red Sea? From what I understand, the more southern entrance to the wadi Hammamat and presumably departure point to the Red Sea was at Qus (Gesy) on the Nile. If Henu was to make a journey on foot, as the inscription suggests, then he would surely have entered the wadi at Qus? "(Qus)... must have been an important town in the early part of Egyptian history. This was probably because at that time it served as the point of departure for expeditions to Wadi Hammamat quarries and the Red Sea" (Baines & Malek, 1985, p.111) A solution to this question might be found if we ask another question, "what did Coptos have that Qus did not?'. As we have previously learned, Coptos had a shipyard. So the question that comes to my mind is, "was a ship dispatched from Coptos, and if so, how was it transported to the Red Sea?" Henu writes, "I went up (pri) from Coptos upon the road as commanded", accompanying Henu was a considerable army which he says "cleared the way ahead". Henu continues, "I went forth with an army of 3000 men, I made the road a river and the desert into fields". He then details how he made the desert into fields, by digging wells along the route, but what does he mean when he says, "I made the road as a river"? Was Henu towing a large ship, or ships? the expression would then be a poetic turn of phrase. Henu did not make the journey to Punt himself, it would have taken many months. There is no real clue as to where Henu stayed while the expedition sailed to Punt. I think he stayed at Coptos, he says, "they reported messengers to me as one alone commanding". Messengers perhaps from the expedition making the journey through the wadi to report progress back to Henu at Coptos, they would not be messengers from the voyage. Henu then summarises his contribution, "I reached w3d-wr, (ie; Coptos, from leaving Thebes), then I made this ship, I dispatched it with all provisions (through the desert to the Red Sea) after a great ceremony. After I came back from w3d-wr (ie; Coptos), I executed the command of his majesty (by) bringing with me (to Thebes?) all the goods brought from Gods-Land." (Hence, Henu may have stayed at Coptos). That is the end of Henu's commission, he has fulfilled his assignment, but as an extra bonus he has had stone quarried from the wadi Hammamat. "I am gone down again (?) while in/passing Wag and Rohenu (Hammamat), "I brought august blocks for statues for the temple". The procurement of these blocks had nothing to do with the expedition to Punt, but may have been done while the expedition was away at Punt. This is just an overview, but as we can see, the ship may have been built and dispatched from Coptos and transported by the army to the Red Sea, but as Henu did not accompany the expedition there is no detailed account of its arrival and the subsequent voyage. If this overview is close to accurate then once again we see w3d-wr associated with ship-building at the Nile, in this case again at Coptos. Any comments? regards, Jon Smyth ============================================================================== From: Ogden Goelet To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 10:16:43 -0400 Subject: Re: Ships of the Desert? (was: AEL W3d-wr & the Red Sea?) Dear Jon, You should try to thumb through a dictionary of greater substance than the glossary of Allen's grammar, such as Faulkner, Hannig, or the Woerterbuch. When the Egyptians wanted to speak of travel along the Nile, they used a different pair of very different verbs xnty and xd, often with a boat / boat under sail determinative. In _numerous_ quarrying inscriptions, including those in the Wadi Hammamat, the Egyptians spoke of pri "to go up /ascend (into the desert)" and hAi "to go down / descend" to the Nile Valley. Often pri is accompanied by a specific destination of a quarry name or a word for desert; hAi is accompanied by a town name, kmt, or tA-mri. xd and xnty appear sometimes even in descriptions of overland travel up and down the Mediterranean litoral; they are very commonly used in the genre of text known as the Appeal to the Living, which requests travellers (particularly to Abydos) who pass by a tomb, etc. to say a prayer on behalf of the deceased. Look also at the verbs used in _numerous_ descriptions of military campaigns in Nubia, where a substantial amount of travel was done by boat, then compare these when the Egyptians are talking of travel into the desert--same distinctive use of the verb pairs. Sincerely, Ogden ==============================================================================