From: "Filipe" To: Subject: AEL discussion sinuhe "Idealtext" Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 11:27:42 +0100 Hi everyone! I just found a german web site from the Marburg University who presents the ""Idealtext"zu der Erz=E4hlung des Sinuhe". It is shown the transliteration in 40 "Kapitels"!?. Could this be a base for a new discussion subject? Wouldn't it be interesting to put this text into winglyph and make a new web page for the translation, transliteration, commentary, vocabulary, etc? Just like the "Westcar Papyrus" you are commenting? Can anyone tell-me what the text is all about, for i just have a few idea= s about it's contents? Many thanks!=20 The german URL is "http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/ ~aegypt/sinlit.htm" ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 05:15:33 -0600 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Katherine Griffis Subject: Re: AEL discussion sinuhe "Idealtext" Cc: Filipe At 11:27 AM 1/4/98 +0100, Filipe wrote on AEL: > Hi everyone! > I just found a german web site from the Marburg University who presents >the ""Idealtext"zu der Erz=E4hlung des Sinuhe". > It is shown the transliteration in 40 "Kapitels"!?. >Could this be a base for a new discussion subject? Wouldn't it be >interesting to put this text into winglyph and make a new web page for >the translation, transliteration, commentary, vocabulary, etc? Just like >the "Westcar Papyrus" you are commenting? >Can anyone tell-me what the text is all about, for i just have a few ideas >about it's contents? >Many thanks!=20 >The german URL is "http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/ ~aegypt/sinlit.htm" Hi Felipe: It is a very interesting site, nicht wahr? =20 I took a look at it this morning, and find that it is a 1992-1993 student project under the direction of Dr. Guenter Burkard at Marburg University, where an "ideal text" reconstruction of the "Story of Sinuhe" is located. It is drawn from several sources, as they state in the preface at=20 http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~aegypt/sintxt.htm: "... Preface: The Transcription of the history of the Sinuhe been based mainly on the basis of pBerlin 3022 (Abk.: B). Other sources of text [that] are consulted, if pBerlin 3022 incorrect or destroyed are: PBerlin 10499 (Abk.: R) becomes completing and the Ashmolean Ostrakon (Abk.: AOS) [is also] used. Large text versions, which are continued to consider in the grammar and not the translation, appear in the footnote text..." (Translation/quick from AltaVista and with personal corrections...) As for the context of the story: Sinuhe is a court official who goes into voluntary exile after the death of Amenemhet I, and after a period of time, longs to return to his homeland. The main emphasis of the story is about the Egyptian "love of country", IMO. These are the "titles" of the first 7 capitals of the text transliteration from the Marburg site (R and B referring to the registers): Chapter 1: (R1 R5) The titulary of Sinuhe. Chapter 2: (R 5 R 11) Beginning of the narration: Dating; Description of the current position after death [of] Amenemhet I.=20 Chapter 3: (R 11 R 19) Retrospective: the campaign Sesostris I. to Libya.=20 Chapter 4: (R 19 B 5) Messengers bring the death notice [of] Amenemhet Chapter 5: (B 5 B 12) Sinuhe's escape, first to the south.=20 Chapter 6: (B 13 B 19) Sinuhe crosses the Nile and turns after the north.=20 Chapter 7: (B 19 B 26) Sinuhe arrived in the border area and almost suffers death.=20 I agree that it sounds like an interesting project for translation, but the Marburg site does not have its hieroglyphic translation up at this time, which would make comparison of its transliteration with that of traditional texts a bit arduous (as to which is taken from p Berlin3022, p Berlin 10499, or AOS). However, I believe it is an interesting idea for an AEL project. HTH. Regards -- Katherine Griffis-Greenberg Member, American Research Center in Egypt Member, International Association of Egyptologists University of Alabama at Birmingham Special Studies ============================================================================== From: "Filipe" To: Subject: AEL sinuhe "idealtext" Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 01:22:19 +0100 Hello Katherine! Many thanks for your enlightenment about the sinuhe "idealtext".I realize that's a very extensive and difficult text to be translated. Perhaps the german university are working on that. I (we all) hope so. I also expect a translation of the "Wisdom of Amenemope"from Serge Rosmorduc site or from anyone else. Bye! ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 20:24:20 +0000 From: Geoff Ponton To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL learn (was: AEL question) As a fellow beginner I have much sympathy with the problems of 'getting going'. I have found it very difficult to memorise hieroglyphs let alone the grammatical rules. As a teacher I know that having to teach a subject is a good way of learning it so, somewhat desperately, I have been trying to write for my own benefit a textbook for beginners (not for publication!) - myself being both teacher and student so to speak. it's a sort of 'Egyptian for Dummies' and assumes no prior knowledge at all. I find that not only does it help the learning process but I'm getting interested in just how to put across the material in the most effective way. I'm using a number of sources that are to hand, including Gardiner and very valuable stuff from this list, plus Winglyph Demo for the hieroglyphs. It's early days yet but I'm finding it pretty absorbing. Geoff P. -- ------------------------------------- -- danny33@danny33.demon.co.uk A true scientific vision: austere, tragic, alienated and supremely beautiful. A world that isn't for anything; a world that is just there. - Jerry Fodor ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 08:32:01 +1100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL discussion sinuhe "Idealtext" Dear Katherine Griffis-Greenberg, I noted your use of the Alta Vista german translation option. I have just read about this in New Scientist and have tried to find it at the Alta Vista search site. If you have german text (eg. a paragraph or page), how do you use Alta Vista to translate it? This will be immensely valuable for negotiating the german sites, many of which do not have any english. I also want to try and compare it to my own translation program. Regards, Mike ******************************** Mike Dyall-Smith, Melbourne, Australia m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au ******************************** ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:16:56 +0000 Subject: AEL (Fwd) Re: AEL Westcar P11/L17 Here's a message from Hans that failed to appear earlier due to an email configuration problem... ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: Hans van Haarst To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1998 18:25:24 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P11/L17 Priority: normal At 09:34 4-1-98 +1100, you wrote: >Dear Mark et al., > >> P11/L17 >> Hnw.t=i xni sy ii.ti r Dd n=i /////////// >> iri.y=s A r gs=i >> my mistress, she spoke as she was passing in order to say to me ????? >> she went off at my side ??? > >'xni' is cited by Faulkner as a non-enclitic particle in Westcar. It is >normally a noun ('speech, utterance, matter, affair). In this example, it >supports a dependent pronoun attached (not a suffix pronoun). The dep. >pron. 'sy' is the subject of the following stative (fem. suffix ending, >ti) ii.ti. > Under these conditions, 'xni' I think would be considered a non-enclitic >(ie. can stand alone at the start of a sentence) particle. Another >non-enclitic particle that could have been used would be 'mk' (see). So why >use this one? Can anyone suggest a meaning? Mark has given a verbal >translation ('she spoke'), but I think it should conform more to some kind >of exclamatory tone, eg. '*Say*, she came to speak to me...." > >Now, a question. Why use the stative of 'ii' in this sentence? Why not a >construction with sDm.n=f? Dear Mark, Mike and all other interested, The stative iy.ti is used, because verbs of motion cannot use the circumstantial sDm.n=f. In this option xni has to be a particle : particle+personal pronoun+stative. There is another occurence of xni in the wisdom text of Anii, but I don't have that text, so I don't really know what xni means. A meaning like actually seems to fit : "Mylady, actually she came to tell me ..." Another translation I read, was : "Mylady, the case is : she came to tell me ... " Here xni is considered to be a noun meaning 'case, matter' ( W III, 289 ) In Egyptian : Hnwt=i xni is sy iy.ti r Dd n=i /// The particle 'is' is used to lay an emphasis on xni. In that case sometimes pw is left out. So perhaps the text was written 'xni is sy ...' and the scribe overlooked the particle is. But I doubt if : xni is sy iy.ti ... is correct Egyptian. Any comments please. >Is 'ir.y' a prospective verb form? The meaning could be something like >"[and she asked if] she could make tracks beside me." There is that rare >word 'A' again, which is probably a verb ("tread, make tracks") and was >used earlier in pWestcar, but there are so few instances of its use it is >difficult to get a full idea of its meaning. This highlights the way >egyptian has been deciphered: using all instances of words in the various >texts and interpreting their meaning from context (and determinatives, >etc.). > So my analysis would be for this section: a prospective verb form (ir.y), >suffix pronoun (=s), infinitive (of 'A' ?, 'a treading'), prepositional >phrase ("beside me"). L17 : iry=s A war r gs=i so that she even could make a refuge at my side. I agree with you about iry=s being a prospective sDm=f. It is used here in a subclause : 'so that' (subjunctive use). Then follows the enclitic particle 'A', even. The determinative of the following 'war' suggest a meaning of land or location. The verb ' war' means to flee, so perhaps 'war' means r efuge here. The Woerterbuch only has 'war.t', quarters (of craftsmen). Best Wishes, Hans van Haarst hans@knor.demon.nl ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:16:56 +0000 Subject: AEL (Fwd) Re: AEL discussion sinuhe "Idealtext" Here's another message from Hans that failed to appear earlier due to an email configuration problem... ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: Hans van Haarst To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1998 18:25:24 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL discussion sinuhe "Idealtext" Priority: normal At 11:27 4-1-98 +0100, you wrote: > Hi everyone! > I just found a German web site from the Marburg University who presents >the ""Idealtext"zu der Erz=E4hlung des Sinuhe". > It is shown the transliteration in 40 "Kapitels"!?. >Could this be a base for a new discussion subject? Wouldn't it be >interesting to put this text into winglyph and make a new web page for >the translation, transliteration, commentary, vocabulary, etc? Just like >the "Westcar Papyrus" you are commenting? >Can anyone tell-me what the text is all about, for i just have a few idea= s >about it's contents? >Many thanks! >The German URL is "http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/ ~aegypt/sinlit.htm" Dear all, For me Sinuhe is the summit of Middle Egyptian narrative writing. It is a = moving story about a courtier, who flees his country after the assassinati= on of his King, the Farao Amenemhat I ( Dynasty 12 ). He finds refuge in Palestine where he becomes a man of distinction. He = is military commander of the army of the local monarch. He even has to fig= ht with a strong man from Retsjenoe. He wins the f ght in a glorious battle. Then he becomes more and more homesick. He wants to return to Egypt, his h= omeland, but hesitates. This part of the story is really touching. The Farao gets to know his wish and sends him a letter in which he invites= Sinuhe to come back to the court. After saying good-bye to his family and= friends, Sinuhe returns to Egypt. There he is wel omed by the Farao and his children, he gets a honorable position and even = a pyramid of stone is built for him. This story is a good successor of the Westcarepisode, but the German websi= te is still under construction, so the text of Sinuhe is not yet available= on the web. The webadress : http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~aegypt/sinuhe.htm Another possibility is the story of Weni. This is already available, thank= s to Mike Dyall-Smith and Geoffrey Graham. The website looks very much the= same as that of pWestcar : all the hieroglyphic t xt and a clickable vocabulary. Transliteration by Geoffrey Graham. Typeset= by Mike Dyall-Smith. Just have a look at : http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/texts/ael/weni.ael/index.htm Best wishes, Hans van Haarst hans@knor.demon.nl ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 16:54:46 -0600 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Katherine Griffis Subject: Re: AEL discussion sinuhe "Idealtext" (CORRECTION) At 05:15 AM 1/5/98 -0600, I wrote (way too early in the morning): "ideal text" reconstruction of the "Story of Sinuhe" >It is drawn from several sources, as they state in the preface at >http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~aegypt/sintxt.htm: > >"... Preface: The Transcription of the history of the Sinuhe been based >mainly on the basis of pBerlin 3022 (Abk.: B). Other sources of text >[that] are consulted, if pBerlin 3022 incorrect or destroyed are: PBerlin >10499 (Abk.: R) becomes completing and the Ashmolean Ostrakon (Abk.: AOS) >[is also] used. Large text versions, which are continued to consider in the >grammar and not the translation, appear in the footnote text..." >(Translation/quick from AltaVista and with personal corrections...) <...> snip to the chase >These are the "titles" of the first 7 capitals of the text transliteration >from the Marburg site (R and B referring to the registers): This serves me right for writing a post at 0515 in the morning....:) The R and B (and AOS) are references to the distinctive papyri/ostracon that each series of "titles". or chapters, that were used in the reconstruction. So, the titles given, below.... "...Chapter 1: (R1 R5) The titulary of Sinuhe. Chapter 2: (R 5 R 11) Beginning of the narration: Dating; Description of the current position after death [of] Amenemhet I. Chapter 3: (R 11 R 19) Retrospective: the campaign Sesostris I. to Libya....." all refer to the pBerlin10499 papyrus, for example. Therefore, it is _theoretically_ possible to use the hieroglyphic text from each of the papyrus/ostracon mentioned, if available for AEL to use. So, my other statement, "... but the Marburg site does not have its hieroglyphic translation up at this time, which would make comparison of its transliteration with that of traditional texts a bit arduous (as to which is taken from p Berlin3022, p Berlin 10499, or AOS)...." should be restated as "...while the Marburg site's hieroglyphic translation is not up at this time, any direct comparison of its transliteration with the hieroglyphic texts used by the Marburg University Project crew would be based ONLY on their assignment of the distinct papyri references given in their transliteration. Not impossible, if one has access to the hieroglyphic text of p Berlin 3022, p Berlin 10499, and AOS...." Sorry for the confusion. If AEL members have such access and interest, then such a project could be of some real challenge, I think. Regards -- Katherine Griffis-Greenberg Member, American Research Center in Egypt Member, International Association of Egyptologists University of Alabama at Birmingham Special Studies ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:24:10 +1100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL learn (was: AEL question) Dear Geoff P., If you have access to a Mac, have you tried my hypercard program 'Scribe of KMT' program? It helps learn the alphabet and biliteral signs (and a bit of vocab from Hoch). Regards, Mike D-S >As a fellow beginner I have much sympathy with the problems of 'getting >going'. I have found it very difficult to memorise hieroglyphs let alone >the grammatical rules. As a teacher I know that having to teach a >subject is a good way of learning it so, somewhat desperately, I have >been trying to write for my own benefit a textbook for beginners (not >for publication!) - myself being both teacher and student so to speak. >it's a sort of 'Egyptian for Dummies' and assumes no prior knowledge at >all. I find that not only does it help the learning process but I'm >getting interested in just how to put across the material in the most >effective way. I'm using a number of sources that are to hand, including >Gardiner and very valuable stuff from this list, plus Winglyph Demo for >the hieroglyphs. It's early days yet but I'm finding it pretty >absorbing. Geoff P. >-- >------------------------------------- >-- >danny33@danny33.demon.co.uk > >A true scientific vision: austere, tragic, >alienated and supremely beautiful. >A world that isn't for anything; a world that is just there. - Jerry >Fodor ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 21:03:51 +1100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P11 L1 Dear Hans et al., Line 1: iri.w is irr.t pA-ii.t tp-im=i >The passive sDm=f can be used in 2 ways. >1. As an initial verbal verbform just like the indicative sDm=f. I thought its use as an initial (ie. bare) verb form was only found in Old Egyptian. Loprieno (p84-85) states that in Middle Egyptian it is not used as an initial (bare) verb form; the only exception being the first person, "whose high position on the hierarchy of topicality allows the use of a perfect passive sDm.w=f (CG 20518a,1; msy=i m rnp.t-zp 1 n.y zA-raw N "I was born in the first year of the Son-of-Re the King")." If the current example was 'iri.w(=i)' with the '=i' left out (perhaps because the subject was obvious) then it might make more sense. Depending on how you take the particle 'is' and what definition you use for 'iri', it could be: "I have been (un)done indeed!" The message is fairly plain. What do you think about this? Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith ******************************** Mike Dyall-Smith, Melbourne, Australia m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au ******************************** ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 23:01:12 +1100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL (Fwd) Re: AEL Westcar P11/L17 Dear Hans, > L17 : iry=s A war r gs=i > so that she even could make a refuge at my side. > ... Then follows the enclitic particle 'A', even. The determinative of >the following 'war' suggest a meaning of > land or location. The verb 'war' means to flee, so perhaps 'war' means >refuge here.The Woerterbuch only > has 'war.t', quarters (of craftsmen). I think there are two possible interpretations of the transcribed hieroglyphs; 'A' or your 'A war'. Earlier in pWestcar there was an example of 'A' which has both the leg and irrigation ditch determinatives. The meaning of this verb is given in Faulkner as 'tread' or 'go off' with someone. Faulkner in fact uses the two Westcar examples. For this occurrence he cites it as: iri A r-gs; go off with (someone); presumably using the iri as an auxiliary. In R. Hannig's dictionary (and using the AltaVista german translation option on the web!!!) it means 'enter (place); step beside (someone)'. What are your thoughts on this? Regards, Mike D-S ******************************** Mike Dyall-Smith, Melbourne, Australia m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au ******************************** ============================================================================== From: Hans van Haarst To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1998 21:32:41 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P11 L1 > Line 1: iri.w is irr.t pA-ii.t tp-im=i > > >The passive sDm=f can be used in 2 ways. > >1. As an initial verbal verbform just like the indicative sDm=f. > > I thought its use as an initial (ie. bare) verb form was only found in > Old Egyptian. Loprieno (p84-85) states that in Middle Egyptian it is not > used as an initial (bare) verb form; the only exception being the first > person, "whose high position on the hierarchy of topicality allows the use > of a perfect passive sDm.w=f (CG 20518a,1; msy=i m rnp.t-zp 1 n.y zA-raw N > "I was born in the first year of the Son-of-Re the King")." > If the current example was 'iri.w(=i)' with the '=i' left out (perhaps > because the subject was obvious) then it might make more sense. Depending > on how you take the particle 'is' and what definition you use for 'iri', it > could be: "I have been (un)done indeed!" The message is fairly plain. > > What do you think about this? > > Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith > Dear Mike, I never read the book by Loprieno, but I certainly will. So he states that in M.E. the passive sDm=f is only used as the substitute of the sDm.n.tw=f and not as a bare form. What is your opinion about the following uses of the passive sDm=f : Sin. B247 : Sbb(.w) atx(.w) tp-mAa=i Next to me one kneaded and brewed Sh. S. 2-4 : mk pH.n=n Xnw Ssp(.w) xrpw Hw(.w) mnit Look we have reached home The mallet has been taken and the mooring-post driven in. (Gardiner p. 339) Does he give an explanation for these uses in his book ? The translation : "Look we have reached home, after the mallet has been taken and the mooring-post driven in", does not seem correct. In this vision P11 L1 'iri(.w) is' has to be a continuation of P10 L26. I can not see what the possible translation would be then. Perhaps your suggestion of a defective writing of 'iri.w=i' suits better. I don't know if there are other defective writings in this papyrus of the 1.s.m. Best wishes, Hans van Haarst emailadress : hans@knor.demon.nl ============================================================================== From: Hans van Haarst To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1998 15:16:18 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL (Fwd) Re: AEL Westcar P11/L17 > Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 23:01:12 +1100 > To: Ancient Egyptian Language List > From: Mike Dyall-Smith > Subject: Re: AEL (Fwd) Re: AEL Westcar P11/L17 Reply-to: Ancient > Egyptian Language List > Dear Hans, > > L17 : iry=s A war r gs=i > > so that she even could make a refuge at my side. > > ... Then follows the enclitic particle 'A', even. The determinative of > >the following 'war' suggest a meaning of > > land or location. The verb 'war' means to flee, so perhaps 'war' means > >refuge here.The Woerterbuch only > > has 'war.t', quarters (of craftsmen). > > I think there are two possible interpretations of the transcribed > hieroglyphs; 'A' or your 'A war'. > Earlier in pWestcar there was an example of 'A' which has both the leg and > irrigation ditch determinatives. The meaning of this verb is given in Faulkner > as 'tread' or 'go off' with someone. Faulkner in fact uses the two Westcar > examples. For this occurrence he cites it as: iri A r-gs; go off with > (someone); presumably using the iri as an auxiliary. In R. Hannig's dictionary > (and using the AltaVista German translation option on the web!!!) it means > 'enter (place); step beside (someone)'. > > What are your thoughts on this? Dear Mike, First of all I overlooked completely the possibility that 'A' could be anything other than a particle. With both the determinatives it is in the Woerterbuch as 'neben jemand treten(?)' , 'stand next to someone'. There are only two occurrences of 'A' and they are both in this pWestcar. The first one is without the ditch determinative. The exact translation is not known. But the overall meaning is clear. The second occurrence is on P11 L17. Here the extra ditch determinative is written. But it does not help a lot. a. iri.y=s A r gs=i b. iri.y=s A war r gs=i It is difficult to decide between these two. In a. 'A' is the object of 'iri.y=s' ( infinitive/verbal noun of the verb 'A') In b. 'war' is the object. The meaning of both is more or less the same. Any comments by anybody about the possible solution to this question, please. Best wishes, Hans van Haarst emailadress : hans@knor.demon.nl ============================================================================== From: Aayko To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL idutu Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 19:20:10 +-100 Hi all, On another list someone gave this quote, that made me really curious: >h. 8 p. 249 >Such changes of word category due to semantic fading in bound sentences >are in no way exceptional. Sanskrit _ku-varsa_ 'local rain' originally >meant 'What a rain!' (Havers 1931: 148). Ancient Egyptian _idutu_ >'oppression' literally meant 'Oh, alas, Utu!' (Komoroczy 1979: 239). Did the AE idutu really have such an etymology?? Seems so odd - even as wordplay/popular etymology it is limpy (the AEs sure could do better!). Any ideas on this? Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== From: Aayko To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL G1- Re: AEL learn Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 20:43:28 +-100 ---------- Van: Geoff Ponton[SMTP:danny33@danny33.demon.co.uk] As a fellow beginner I have much sympathy with the problems of 'getting going'. I have found it very difficult to memorise hieroglyphs let alone the grammatical rules. As a teacher I know that having to teach a subject is a good way of learning it so, somewhat desperately, I have been trying to write for my own benefit a textbook for beginners (not for publication!) - myself being both teacher and student so to speak. it's a sort of 'Egyptian for Dummies' and assumes no prior knowledge at all. I find that not only does it help the learning process but I'm getting interested in just how to put across the material in the most effective way. I'm using a number of sources that are to hand, including Gardiner and very valuable stuff from this list, plus Winglyph Demo for the hieroglyphs. It's early days yet but I'm finding it pretty absorbing. ***I could not agree more, Geoff! I'm in the same process. Just staring at some page normally does not let things sink in very well. Wrestling with it, putting and rewriting it in your own words helps to make it your own. I've two sources: a modern Dutch book that reads like a math book, with its jungle of grammatical terms, brr, awfull, and Brunner's booklet, that is not really fit for self-study at all. Both books are not only user-unfriendly and too compact, but also scatter topics as little bits across many pages. While I like things monotopic and rounded. Last time I gathered all I could find on vocatives, this time all on demonstratives. Being less wise than you, I DO cast my fruits onto AEL ;-) For these reasons: * Hopefully the teachers/veterans will give corrections and additions, and answer some of my Q(uestions). I could have posted these alone, but then it would perhaps be less clear how I came up with them. * My fellow pupils will see it as an incentive to go wrestling for themselves (see above), f.e. looking what Gardiner/Hoch (or what other book around I do not have) has, so we come up with something pretty exhaustive per topic. I do not only like to keep things very monotopic, but also very basic. Also because the Englisch grammar terms are not my native ones. And I secretly wonder what percentage of Net-population even remembers ANY grammar from school :-o So let's keep it low on that. And here in G(rade) 1, let's not pass on to verbs until we have dealt with *everything* non-verbal, and non-verbal sentence structures! Any takers? ---------- Van: Julie Bloch [SMTP:blochprint@zelacom.com] I like the concept of minimal tricky grammar; I'm in kindergarten AE, too... Van: Anpwhotep[SMTP:inpwhtp@ix.netcom.com] Coming from a beginner here, I would LOVE to see something like that, since my only previous learning has been the first book of Barbara Watterson's introduction, and I'd like to be able to feel like I can at least follow the lessons... :) So happily ignore any verbs passing by in the examples. And remember it is my personal attempt to get order and logic out of it all (f.e. the lit(eral) translations, and putting things into sections, etc, are mine), so show some scepticism . Seems our G1 class has 5 pupils already! :) (I count you in Cindy...) Counting on you all to partake actively, and being totally fearless for "being embarrased" (fie!, Stephen!). If anyone advanced feels like smirking, let him go play in his own G2 or G3 class...ksst! Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 01:17:07 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Westcar P12/L15-16 Hi and nfr rnpt mAt n Hr nb iw=Tn m Hss imn ra nswt nTrw pAy=Tn nb nfr ! Due to a little tech. problem I couldn't participate on the debate on the awfull sentence : ir is irt=t (or irr=t) pA iyt tp im=i iw=i Hr snsn wTst There's a note in Blackman about the transliteration ir:t*t, which refers to JEA 16,68(14). I will try to see what is said there next friday or so, but frankly, seing the signs, it could be ir:r*t. Someone wondered about irr=t being a nominal form without adverbial adjunct. It is very possible. For the beginner's sake, let's sum up : There is a verb form in middle egyptian which is called the 'nominal form'. it looks like : 2-lit : Dd=i 3-lit : sDm=i 3-inf : mrr=i 2-gem : mAA=i rdi : dd=i This form a verbal group into a noun, without any marked modal value. mrr=i means "the-fact-that-I-love" USES : The nominal form (also called "emphatic form", "second tense", which both refer to a particular use of it, and "mrr=f", which is a rather good name IMHO) can be used in places when a noun is called for : * It can be SUBJET of a sentence * It can be OBJECT of verbs like rdi, mri, wD (command) which can take propositions as objects. (in such position, you can also meet the prospective) * It can be the Subjet or the Predicate of a nominal or adjectival sentence. you can find, for example, things like : *"nfr mrr=f" it is good that-he-loves One peculiar use of this is the 'balanced sentence', in which two mrr=f-based clauses serve as subject and predicate of a nominal sentence. "mrr=f irr=f" that-he-wishes is that-he-does or "wnn ra m pt, wnn mnw=k tp tA" as Ra is/will be in the sky, your monuments will be on earth (approximative examples :-) ) The last use of the nominal form is the "emphatic" or "second tense" use. The origin of this name is somehow amusing. In coptic, verb forms are clearer than in older stages of egyptian, and people knew two present tenses, with little apparent difference of meaning. Hence, they called them First Present and Second Present. When the value of the second present was understood (by Polotsky), the name was kept for Coptic and late Egyptian. Now, let's go back to this last use : in an emphatic clause, the verb form is used as the SUBJECT of an ADVERBIAL sentence. Thus, instead of a sentence like : I eat in my kitchen, you have : That-I-eat is in my kitchen, which can be translated as : It is in my kitchen that I eat I only eat in my kitchen In my kitchen, I eat etc. Appart from marked forms (mrr, and the like), the emphatic form can mostly be suspected when you have some initial sDm=f without iw or mk, or when the meaning calls it. There is also a nominal sDm.n=f, with the same nominal value, but with an accomplished aspect. Initial sDm.n=f without iw or mk are nominal. Intransitive movement verbs like iy.n=f are nominal Of course it is not always very clear whether a form is a sequential sDm.n=f or a nominal sDm.n=f. It's better to look at both hypothesis. The negation of the nominal sDm.n=f is n sDm.n=f is .... (adverbial adjunct) : n Sm.n=k is mwt.ti : It is not being dead that you have gone. Some verbs tend to use the nominal form on a quite regular basis, in which cases the form tends to loose its power somehow. For example, gm.n=f is very often nominal, because in Egyptian you usually find SOMETHING in some STATE I think that the gm.n=f in Westcar are nominal. Well, now, back to the text (if it isn't corrupt !) : the first thing is that 'is' does not mean 'indeed'. In old texts (See Vernus in 'the world of the Coffin Texts'), 'X is' can mean "like X". In Middle Egyptian, 'is' is often a mark of predication. In negative nominal sentences, it separates the subject from the predicate. Enclitic 'is' can have two values : linking a sentence with the previous one (in which case you can often translate it by 'as' or by 'because'): * ..... ink is Ra ..... because I am Re. According to Grandet-Mathieu (but I'm not completely convinced by their example in the shipwrecked sailor l. 153), 'is' can also be an protasis marker. An protasis is a circumstantial complement put in front of the main clause. We would then have two examples in Westcar : - "mr=i is st, nA Ddy=k : pty sy tA rwDDdt" As I wish it, what you are going to tell me is "who is she, that Roudjedjet ?" and our sentence. The sentence is quite weird, and the proposed translations are all possible. As Graham has said, published translations for this sentence are not always very convincing. I would so try one more translation : ir is irt=t (or irr=t) pA iyt tp im=i iw=i Hr snsn wTst As what is done is that you have came to me, I am mingling in delation ? Some notes : if you look at the discurses of the brother, he uses the verb "ir" a lot. Geof has made the fine remark that "pA iyt" supposes that "iyt" is masculine, which is a late feature. Now, could this use of ir (including in place of iy : "ir=t r Tn") be one more mark of the low status and popular egyptian of the brother ? For the beginners, a remark : this kind of "popular talk" appears in the captions of daily life scenes on tomb walls, so the hypothesis is reasonable. with *ir=w irr=t pA iyt tp im=i* => circumstance iw=i Hr snsn wTst => principal clause the first sentence being a nominal sentence "A B" ? BTW, iw=i Hr snsn wTst could perfectly be a circumstantial clause in good middle Egyptian, as, if the subject is a suffix pronoun, 'iw' has practicaly no other value in adverbial clause ; it is only there to allow the insertion of the pronoun. On the other hand, you could think of another interpretation like : As it has been done, It is because I am supposed to agree with delation that you have come to me ? One more notice about this interpretation : it often pays, when a sentence is paradoxal and tells the contrary of what you expect, to wonder wether it is not a rhetorical question (hence the 'supposed to' to make things clearer in previous sentence). regards, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) 66, rue Alexandre Dumas 75011 Paris tel 01 48 70 37 09 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== From: Aayko To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL G1 - demonstrative pronouns Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 20:43:25 +-100 DEMONSTRATIVE PRONOUNS We saw that vocative sentences often employ demonstrative pronouns. Let's look at them. There are four types of words to express 'this'/'that'/ 'these'. 1) "this/these (here with me)" Points at something close to the speaker/writer. masculine singular p3 masculin plural (*j.p3?) feminine singular t3 masculin plural (*j.pt3?) collective n3 Note: these PRECEDE the noun they belong to. Note: the demonstrative pronouns with n# are used for collectives; a collective is a word that is singular, feminine nor masculine, but envelops a quantity of something. F.e. _' w.t_ = 'small cattle', snTr = 'incense', etc. Note: in archaic spellings, the feminine forms of all demonstrative pronouns have T instead of t. 2) "that/these (there with you)" Points at something close to the listener/reader. masculine singular pn masculine plural (j.pn) feminine singular tn feminine plural (j.ptn) collective nn Note: these FOLLOW the noun they belong to. 3) "this/these" Points at something that is close nor far; often it points at something in the mythical/supernatural plane. masculine singular pw masculine plural (j.pw) feminine singular tw feminine plural (j.ptw) collective nw Note: these FOLLOW the noun they belong to. Note: mostly used in archaic (or archaistic) texts 4) "that/these (over there)", "yonder" Points at something that is far removed from the speaker/writer and listener/reader. masculine singular pf masculine plural (j.pf) feminine singular tf feminine plural (j.ptf) collective nf Note: these FOLLOW the noun they belong to. Note: sometimes an extra 3 is added (pf3). 5) PLURAL The 'real' plural demonstratives, the ones with gender and formed with _ j._, are archaic, and do not figure much in ME, unless the writer wants to be 'hypercorrect' or make his text look old (archaistic writing). That's why they stand between () in the tables above. Instead of these, the collective forms are generally used to make the plural, linked to the noun with the genitive particle _n_ (="of"). In all cases this construction PRECEDES the noun it belong to, and is IMO best to understand as "this group of". F.e.: nw n nTr.w = "these gods" (lit. "this (group) of gods") note: in archaic texts, the noun can stand in singular, as the plural demonstrative says it all. nw n nTr = these gods; S3b.t.y j.pn = these shabti(s) Q: I did not find the forms j.p3/j.pt3 attested in a book, hence I constructed them (*), Did anyone ever see them in a text? SUMMING UP - The p3 series and the plurals formed with the n(y) particle precede the noun. - The series of pn, pw, pf (singular or plural) follow the noun. p3 r-pr = this temple-domain nw n nTr.w = these gods S3b.t.y j.pn = these shabtis Dw pn = that mountain dp.t tf = yonder ship 6) The demonstrative pronouns can also be used independently, instead of with a noun. Then meaning "that/these one(s)", "that/these thing(s)", etc. cf. s3 pf(3) pw = "it is the son of that one" (lit."(the) son (of) that (one) it (is)"; for pw see 7c) Q: how can we know this is a direct genitive, and does not mean "it is yonder son"? Just by looking at context I suppose? cf. w3D.w.y jr(j) n3 n nTr=f = "how fortunate is the one who does these things for his god!" (lit. "how fortunate doing(?) these for his god") nn Dd.w=yj = "...these things I have said" Gb Dd n=k nw = "Geb says to you these things" 7) From 'this' to 'the' In the course of time, the above pronouns more and more got an identifying nature rather than a demonstrative nature. I.e. became used to identify something that was known instead of really pointing at something. >From demonstrative to article. a) the p3 series (p3/t3/n3) became the Definite Article ('the') in the *New Kingdom*, a development starting in the MK. cf. Pathros = p3 t3 rs.j = The Southland b) the pn series often got the meaning "the same one" "the one before me", and is the form used in vocative sentences [logically, for what can be more close to the listener than the listener/adressed?]. MK cf. j js pn qd.n.tw=k... = "O Tomb here before me, you have been built.." (lit.: "O that tomb, you...") c) the pw series became archaic as demonstrative as we have seen; the word pw (used irrespective of the gender and number of the word to which it refers!!; so no use of tw/nw) became used in the sense of "it is/are". MK cf. m3'.t pw = "it's the truth!" (lit. "truth it (is)") pXrt pw = "it is a remedy" jt=k pw = "it/this is you father" tx pw ns=k = "your tongue is the plummet" (lit. "a plummet it is, your tongue") So pw follows behind the predicate that in English would follow after "it is..". Q: When do we use this pw, and when sw /sy/st (i.e. a nfr sw construction)? The first with a noun, the latter with an adjective, as predicate? (nfr sw = it is beautifull, pXrt pw = it is a remedy) Q: under 6, we had s3 pf(3) pw "it is the son of that one". So I suppose s3 pw pf(3) would mean "that one is the son"? Showing the difference of the place of pw. Anyone can confirm? d) Possessive Article The p3 series, with nearly always an y added, plus suffix pronoun, make a construction indicating possession. Like p3 preceding the noun. masc.sg./ fem. sg./coll. p3y=j / t3y=j / n3y=jn = "my" p3y=k / p3y=k / n3y=kn = "your" etc. Q: perhaps someone can confirm the collective forms, with that odd extra n, my books are not too clear on them. They are used for plurals as well, right? "his children" would be _ n3y=fn Xrdw.w_, correct? cf. p3y=k nTr = "your god" (lit. "this your god") Q: Apparantly _nTr=k pn_ is never used? It would have the same meaning in theory. Q: when would you use p3y=k nTr and when nTr=k ? A matter of emphasis? ------- Any additions/corrections from the teachers? F.e. answers on my Q(uestions). By lack of glyphs here - the demonstratives are spelled fairly straightforward with the uniliterals. (y is double reed) Exceptions: nn = 2x M22 nw = n + U19 + W24 + w (*) p3 = G40 + 3 (*) under the AE motto "why do it easy if you can do it difficult" :( Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 08:58:38 +1100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Westcar web site Dear Westcar-philes, Could I just remind everyone that the downloadable files of the entire Westcar site (the stuffit files on the home page) are now quite out of date. I am waiting for the discussion over the last page to draw to a close, then I will update these files so that everyone can download the completed web site for their own use. Thanks, Mike Dyall-Smith ******************************** Mike Dyall-Smith, Melbourne, Australia m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au ******************************** ==============================================================================