Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 20:27:39 -0500 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Cara Sargent Subject: Re: AEL Pronunciation? Hi, I'm new to the list. I'm a friend of Geoff's at Yale, also studying Egyptology. I think I can help with the pronunciation issue, but I hope you're not disappointed, since we really don't know exactly how AE sounded. Also keep in mind that different scholars may pronounce the same word differently, e.g. you may hear it "father" pronounced eet as the hieroglyphic transliteration suggests or as yot (long o) as the word in pronounced in Coptic. Some sounds are much better heard than read about, but I'll try. A = short a like father i = i like bid or ee like seen, sometimes y a = like Arabic or Hebrew ayn. Kind of like an a with your tongue at the back of the roof of your mouth w = w or oo b, p, f, m, n, h = same as English H = aspirated h. Close up your throat a bit and say h. x = kind of like ch in loch X = like Arabic ghayn. A little like French r. Try the H sound, but voice it. s = s S = sh q = Try saying k with your tongue in the back of your mouth. k, g, t = like English T = tch in snitch d = d D = dj like badge. Short e's are inserted for pronunciation. Here are some of the exercises you've done and how you'd hear them pronounced. m pr em per Hr wAt her wat (the h more aspirated than English h) m pr=k nfr em per-ek nefer m dpt nty m wAD wr em depet enty em wadj wer iw s.t m pr=s you set em per-es iw sS Hr wAt you sesh her wat iw sxt.y m AH.t Hm.t=f m pr you sekhty em ahet hemet-ef em per nfr.wy pr=i Hm.t=i im neferwee per-ee hemet-ee eem iw sS r sDm you sesh er sedjem ink = eenek (pronounced anok in Coptic) nfrw = neferoo It's not glamorous, but it works. Stephen is right that grammatical distinctions may have been made by vowel changes, but we're most often at a loss on that count. I hope this helps and look forward to participating as much as I can. Happy New Year to all! Cara Sargent ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 01:07:59 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Pronunciation? Hi, Cara, So, you finally made it on to AEL! ;-P I am so pleased. Thanks for the nice explanation of how to pronounce transliterations. Now, (for the rest of the list, because Cara already knows all this) I am going to throw in a little bit of more complicated information for those of you who are interested. It is not necessary information, but it might come in handy some day if you really go further in the study of Egyptian. > Hi, I'm new to the list. I'm a friend of Geoff's at Yale, also studying > Egyptology. I think I can help with the pronunciation issue, but I hope > you're not disappointed, since we really don't know exactly how AE sounded. > Also keep in mind that different scholars may pronounce the same word > differently, e.g. you may hear it "father" pronounced eet as the > hieroglyphic transliteration suggests or as yot (long o) as the word in > pronounced in Coptic. Some sounds are much better heard than read about, > but I'll try. What Cara is talking about in this post is how Egyptologists pronounce these transliterations while they are reading them amongst themselves, so that we have any audio cues to work from at all. This is of course not the same thing as actual ancient pronunciations which are very difficult to ascertain with any accuracy or precision. > A = short a like father But, always remember that {3} or {A} actually represents a consonant and not a vowel, even if you do pronounce it this way for yourself. To this, let me add that until recently (let's say fifty years ago or so, which is recent when you consider how long Egyptian has been around) it was believed that the grapheme (an Egyptian vulture), which is designated by the {3} or {A} characters in ascii, represented the glottal stop. This is the click which occurs between two vowels such as what happenes when someone says: "uh oh!" or "go up". ^ ^ Unfortunately things could not stay this simple, and it is now realized that {3} or {A} represents some kind of consonant which was at one time (before the Second Intermediate Period) even more stable than the glottal stop, but that by the time of the New Kingdom it had pretty much fallen out of the language though it continued to be written. Many people believe that the sound was either /l/ (an otherwise missing sound in Egyptian) or /R/ (which is like an {r} in French or German). Erman and Hodge proposed /l/ while Loprieno and Schenkel seem to be the major proponents of /R/. However, I have recently heard about an article (not yet read by me) in the latest Journal of Egyptian Archaeology by Osing, debunking {3}/{A} as a liquid sound. I look forward to reading this because I have generally remained convinced of its value as /l/ myself, and would be interested to see what evidence can be brought up against this designation. > i = i like bid or ee like seen, sometimes y Yes, and while it is true, as Cara says, that this is how we pronounce it to one another in Egyptological circles, in fact, most likely this phoneme was actually the real glottal stop which did from time to time alternate with /y/. This is the reason that Gardiner selected the symbol of an {i} with the glottal stop mark (apostrophe) above it to represent the character. As you can see, the entire issue of pronunciation is quite complex, since we have not even gotten the cononants straightened out yet, so how on earth to tackle the vowels? ;-P > a = like Arabic or Hebrew ayn. Kind of like an a with your tongue at the > back of the roof of your mouth Yes, indeed. In order to make this sound, as my Arabic teacher used to tell us: "you have to learn how to growl like a dog; 'aaaaaaaAAAh!!!'" Actually that is a little extreme, because it is perfectly possible to pronounce this sound lightly and with dignity. In fact the Arabic language is really quite beautiful if you can appreciate the pharyngial sounds and the emphatics within it. I have always thought Arabic was one of the loveliest languages in the world, and I am almost certain that Egyptian did not sound too terribly dissimilar to it, at least it makes sense that it would not, considering the inventory of sounds which these languages share between them. > w = w or oo Think of the {w} as always consonantal, but that, like any weak consonant (w, y), it could serve as a *mater lectionis*... kind of like the spelling of {new} in English. When you put a vowel in fron of /w/, you get a kind of diphthong ending in /u/. > b, p, f, m, n, h = same as English > H = aspirated h. Close up your throat a bit and say h. Yeah, it is like the sound of the hissing of a snake almost. Tighten your throat but open you mouth rather widely and then make the {h} sound. You really have to hear a native speaker of Arabic or an Afroasiatic language which still has this sound in order to get it though. Modern Hebrew has lost this sound entirely and replaced it with /x/, but I believe that Berber and Ethiopic still have it. I think I have also noted the sound in modern Korean, but I cannot confirm this for certain. > x = kind of like ch in loch or just like {ch} in German {ach}. > X = like Arabic ghayn. A little like French r. Try the H sound, but voice it. This is the idea of Ahmad Bakir, an Egyptian scholar, and it is commonly taught in Egyptian classes in Egypt, but not widely accepted by people outside of that millieu. This is not to say that it is necessarily incorrect. In fact, the exact value of {X} is really not determined yet. However, the consonant seems to behave most like it would be a palatalized version of /x/. That is to say like {ch} in German {ich}. The reason that people think this, is that the sign for {X} during the Old Kingdom is not yet distinguished from the sign for /S/ (). > s = s Also, though not necessarily crucial to the study of Middle Egyptian, there were two separate sounds in Old Egyptian which conflated into Middle Egyptian /s/. In ascii we represent one of them as /s/ and the other as /z/. By the time of Middle Egyptian both were already pronounced as /s/, however they were originally quite distinct and they belong to separate roots. Until recently it was believed that the one represented by {z} was infact /z/, however, it is now realized that the sound was more likely // like {th} in English "think". > S = sh > q = Try saying k with your tongue in the back of your mouth. Yes, it is almost a clicking noise. People usually have to hear it pronounced before they can begin to imitate it however. > k, g, t = like English > T = tch in snitch Yes, and it seems to have evolved from an original archaic Egyptian /k/ sound, being something almost like a palatalized /ky/. > d = d This one is still debated too. Many think that it was actually the emphatic /t/ that occurs in Arabic, but this is a difficult sound to make without hearing too. The case seems to be that Egyptian had no voiced stops, according to the evidence we have in Coptic. The supposed /b/ was probably more like Spanish {b/v}, half way between {b} and {v}, and both /d/ and /g/ were actually emphatics of some kind rather than voiced. Yet, it is simply easier to distinguish them in English by using values like /d/ versus /t/ and /g/ versus /k/. > D = dj like badge. Yes, or maybe also another emphatic voiceless consonant. Now, just for the fun of it, I will attempt to reconstruct these exercises as a real Egyptian might have pronounced them, by using information gleaned from Coptic and courses in the historical linguistics of Egyptian. I cannot guarantee one hundred percent accuracy, so just read this for fun and don't take it overly seriously. ;-P Sometimes what I will write below will not seem very logical. You can ask questions about it if you like. I have reasons or all the odd features I introduce, but some of them will not be comprehensible without a background in Coptic and other aspects of the history of Egyptian. I can do the best I can to answer questions if you have them though. (^ will be under the accented syllables) > m pr em per 'im-piru ^ > Hr wAt her wat (the h more aspirated than English h) Har-wilya ^ > m pr=k nfr em per-ek nefer 'im-piruk nAfar ^ ^ > m dpt nty m wAD wr em depet enty em wadj wer Shouldn't this be m dp.t ntt m w3D-wr? 'im-dipwa 'intya-m-walC-wUri ^ ^ ^ > iw s.t m pr=s you set em per-es 'u-lAsa 'im-pirus ^ ^ > iw sS Hr wAt you sesh her wat 'u-ilXu Har-wilya ^ ^ > iw sxt.y m AH.t Hm.t=f m pr you sekhty em ahet hemet-ef em per 'u-sAxati 'im-lAHa Hamatuf 'im-piru ^ ^ ^ ^ > nfr.wy pr=i Hm.t=i im neferwee per-ee hemet-ee eem nafarway piru Himati 'imma ^ ^ ^ ^ > iw sS r sDm you sesh er sedjem 'u-ilXu 'ir-sACam ^ ^ > ink = eenek (pronounced anok in Coptic) 'anak ^ > nfrw = neferoo nafaru ^ Yours, Geoff Graham ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 02:14:14 +1100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P11 L1-2 Dear Hans et al., >L1 : iri.w is irr=T pA iy.t Hr-im=i > What do you do ? To me do you come >L1 starts with a passive sDm=f used impersonally. Then follows the >interrogatory particle 'is'. So literally this means something like : "Is >there being acted ?" I am troubled by this line. Is this truly a 2 word sentence? [iri.w is]. Do you have another example of such a sentence? Can you elaborate on what you think the first verb form is? Geoff transliterated it as: iri is (irr.t pA-ii.t tp-im=i), yet you have added the .w A sDm.w=f passive is a past tense form, and in ME would not normally begin a sentence without an initial particle. Perhaps you mean a passive participle used as a noun. Since there is no gemination, this limits the type of participle somewhat (eg. perfect passive, prospective passive). It can't refer to the woman who has come into his presence, as it does not have a .t ending. So, it must refer to the act/deed in general. The 'is' could be an interrogative, or just an enclitic 'indeed!'. Perhaps the 'is' simply introduces the clause which explains the 'act/deed', eg. "A thing done indeed ! " >Next follows a new sentence that consists of a nominal/emphatic sDm=f : >irr=T ,the object : pA iy.t and the adverbial adjunct/vedette : Hr-im=i. >L2 : iw=i Hr snsn wTs.t > and now I am getting involved in treason ! I agree the verb 'irr' looks like it should be a nominal/emphatic/second tense form (see Hoch, lesson 12). I note your transliteration has 'Hr-im='i rather than 'tp-im=i'. This may change your translation somewhat (?). I have tried to keep the nature of this second tense verb (irr) evident in the following translation. The verb focusses attention on the 'why, where, how, when, etc.' of the event, rather than the event itself. I felt the focus was not simply that she has come before him, but that by doing so she has compromised him. [ie.]... By (your) making this coming before me *I am mingling with accused persons!*" Comments please. Regards, Mike D-S Melbourne ************************************* Mike Dyall-Smith, Ph.D. Department of Microbiology and Immunology, University of Melbourne, 3052 Australia Tel: +(613) 9344-5693 Fax: +(613) 9347-1540 e-m: m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au web: www.microbiol.unimelb.edu.au/mds/ ************************************* ============================================================================== From: Aayko To: "AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk" Subject: AEL question Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:41:59 +-100 Hi all, Seeing the list having low tide, and seeing the recent list owner's call for stupid questions by people NOT knowing AE :), I boldy drop the following question: I wrote to someone, after teasing her a bit with a hypothesis of hers, that was a bit wild to my taste (and this is a rather loose quote): ---------- >>(she:) Instead of pulling my leg, rather supply me with this bit of info, on [...], please! > (I answered:) Spsy.t, wD=T wnn=i !; Hm=T pn q To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL AW: AEL Pronunciation? Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:41:45 +-100 Dear Cara, Thank you for your list! H = aspirated h. Close up your throat a bit and say h. x = kind of like ch in loch X = like Arabic ghayn. A little like French r. Try the H sound, but voice it. s = s S = sh q = Try saying k with your tongue in the back of your mouth. k, g, t = like English Those gutterals are the hardest to distinguish. So to linger on them a bit (and to confuse everyone a bit more ) - I found in different books: g - as French garcon [remember that opposite to this, the Germanic g sounds as ch, as in Scottish loch! The English listened too much to the Normands....] k - normal k q/dot-k - sharp k, in the back of the mouth would cat-cut mirror the difference somewhat? Provided you say 'cut!' like a movie-director does. ;) one book has: h - normal h H/dot-h - ch, as in Dutch 'ach!' x/bow-h - ch, as in German 'ich' X/underscore-h - ch as in Dutch 'ach' [note: the germanic ch has in English been garbled under French influence to sounding tsh, like the g was garbled to sound like g(arcon) and the j to dzj. Oh those bad Anglos!] another book has: h - normal h H - sharp h x - hard Dutch ch X - soft Dutch ch and a thirth has: H - emphasized h x - ch as in loch X - ch as in German ich [sic! see above] so those x and X are a bit messy! But the latter two books are on one line, basically, and in line with you. And most people will have heard a german 'ich' in WW II movies once? Leaves h and H; would hat-hah! mirror the difference? I must say that I always find the universal practice of rendering x/X in English as kh a bit problematic, as kh surely sounds quite differently from ch! The problem is of course that there is nothing fitting in English. you only listed one s: s - soft s or z accent-s - emphasized or normal s best transcribed as z and s. I'm a bit puzzled by your "a little like French r."?! Likely not even while French-kissing their r could come out as a soft ch, surely?! :P Best wishes, Aayko Eyma who now knows were Cara went on holiday this summer ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 00:50:13 +0000 Subject: AEL Happy new year! Hello, As we move into 1998, I'd like to wish everyone on the AEL list a very happy and successful new year. I would also like to thank everyone who has taken the time to contribute to the on-list discussion, especially Geoff and Mike who have both given up much of their time throughout 1997 to this project. Everyone who contributes to this list, to the web page, and towards preparing the lessons does so on a voluntary basis. I'm sure I speak for most people on this list in saying how much these efforts are appreciated. I have certainly learned a great deal from the list activities over the 10 months that it has been in operation, and would like to offer my thanks to everyone who has helped to make it possible. My warmest wishes to everyone! -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/index.html ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:07:56 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P11 L1-2 Hi, All, Let me take a stab at this one too. This is one of the more difficult lines in the papyrus and I am not sure I was ever happy with any translation of it thus far. One thing that seems evident to me is that the grammar is verging on Late Egyptian. The infinitive jj.t, though originally feminine, is treated as grammatically masculine by the text, something which is normal for Late Egyptian. From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Westcar p5,6; sAXbw, Rm.wy Just got a copy of R. Hannig's egyptian-german dictionary. My german is negligible but I have a translation program that copes with the definitions. What I was surprised at is that it has a lot of other useful things, among them a map of ancient egypt listing the egyptian cities and towns. sAXbw (see AEL page 5) is shown on the map as a specific place in the western delta (map 7) and is thought to be equivalent to 'Zat el-Kom'. Does anyone know anything about this place? The two-fish canal (Rm.wy) has the description: "(viell Kanal Zat el-om, zwischen Nilarm von Rosette und Bahr el-Labani)" Can someone translate that for me please. Thanks, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne PS: Just returned from a very hot Christmas holiday in Western Australia. At 40C it felt like I was in Egypt! ************************************* Mike Dyall-Smith, Ph.D. Department of Microbiology and Immunology, University of Melbourne, 3052 Australia Tel: +(613) 9344-5693 Fax: +(613) 9347-1540 e-m: m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au web: www.microbiol.unimelb.edu.au/mds/ ************************************* ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:25:32 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL question Hi, Aayko, You are quite right that the best way to learn anything is to use it actively. I found that I learned Egyptian really well when I attempted to write letters in it to other friends who could technically read what I was writing, though this was a struggle. It was really great for my own learning process, and I recommend it highly. This is why Gardiner's exercises from English to Egyptian, while often ignored by many classes are really the crucial test in learning the language. If you can produce the forms yourself, then you actually do know it and won't have to always look everything up all the time. > Spsy.t, wD=T wnn=i !; Hm=T pn q It was supposed to mean: > "Noble lady, you command, I come!, this one your servant he bows, > this one your courtier he offers tribute:" > [and then the bit of info as peace offering] Do you want it to say what you wrote here, the weird translating English and all, or do you want it cleaned up? ;-P hehehehe First of all you might put a vocative j in front of the statement. As far as how you are treating the sDm=f's, I am not so sure, do you want them to be "if you command me"? Hmmmm.... let me just play with this. j Spsj.t, jj=j xft wD=T wj O, august-one, it is when you command me that I come. jn b3k-jm ks.w, jn Sms.w=T pn wdn.w n=T jn.w It is this humble servant who bows, and this your follower who offers tributes to you. > So what I would like to hear: how would this have been in > REAL AE? Notably in the sense of proper sentence structure, > with a minimum of tricky grammar. So in kindergarten-AE. Well, I certainly cannot guarantee that I have gotten this error free, but what I did here feels more like a real Egyptian way of saying this than what you had before. Maybe some others would like to perfect this? Yours, Geoff Graham ============================================================================== From: "Lynette" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL HAPPY NEW YEAR! Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 14:00:30 +1100 JUST LIKE TO WISH EVERYONE HERE A HAPPY NEW YEAR and say that I agree everything Mark Wilson said. And Mike, it was 40 degrees centigrade a few days here in Sydney too and the cat wasn't happy about it. I told him he should be adapted to it, being from Egypt and all, but it was to no avail. Love to you all Lynette F. Watters Love is the Law. Love under will. lunetta@mountains.net.au ICQ# 6494444 ============================================================================== From: "Mark Vygus" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Westcar P11/L11- Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 09:25:40 -0000 Happy New Year P11/L11 aHa.n Dd.n=f n=s Hnw.t=i irr=T pA-ib Hr-mi Then he said to her my mistress, why is the heart acting like this ? P11/L12 aHa.n Dd.n=s tA-pw kti.t xpr.t m pA-pr Then she said it is (because of ) the girl who lived in this house P11/L13 m.k ms sy Smi.ti r Dd behold Indeed, she has set out saying P11/L14 iw=i r Smi.t wTz=i I am setting out to inform against (you) P11/L15 aHa.n rdi.n=f tp=f (m) m-Xr.w then he put his head downwards P11/L16 aHa.n Dd.n=f then he said P11/L17 Hnw.t=i xni sy ii.ti r Dd n=i /////////// iri.y=s A r gs=i my mistress, she spoke as she was passing in order to say to me ????? she went off at my side ??? P11/L18 aHa.n iri.n=i n=s sxt bin.t then I gave her a severe beating P11/L19 aHa.n=s Smi.ti r ikn n=s nhy n.y mw then she went to draw for herself a little water P11/L20 aHa.n iTi.n sy mzH then a crocodile seized her ////////////// THE END ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 21:13:17 +1100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P11 L1-2 Dear Geoff, > jrr.T > nominanlized form of the auxiliary verb, possessed by =T I am confused by 'irr'. By nominalised, do you mean a nominal verb form (eg. second tense). If so, the gemination makes it a second tense (active) sDm=f. What then is the focus? Hoch says (section 171) that if 'iri' is used as an auxillary verb, it can be in any form. We have a problem in deciding the verb form here as I am unclear about whether the sentence begins at 'irr=t' or not. [note: it is a 't' in de Buck]. If it does then the verb form is bare (no introductory particles). I agree it looks nominal, but if it is a second tense it must be throwing focus on to something. Else, do you mean that iri has been grammaticalised? If James [Hoch] is looking on (and probably smiling !), can you lend us a hand? Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith ******************************** Mike Dyall-Smith, Melbourne, Australia m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au ******************************** ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 23:45:15 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Exercise 4 Ivo Marinov wrote: > Although I was not familiar with many of the words in this exercise, I tried to solve it. Well you did very well indeed! I am always very impressed by all the people on this list whose first language is not English, being so appara\ently comfortable with it! I must apologize for not including a vocabulary list with the exercises and lesson. I was somewhat rushed when I was making it. > 1. iw Hm=f m niwt tn > His majesty is in this city. > 2. iw dpt m itrw > The boat is on the river (Nile?). To the Egytpians, "river" and "nile" were pretty much the same thing, although they were aware of other rivers. If you translate it as "river" you'll be pretty safe. > 3. iw sHt.y pn m AH.t Hm.t m pr Hr iri.t t > This peasant was/is in the field while (his) wife was/is making bread in the house. Two points: The word for peasant is transliterated as sxty - different gutteral sound. And as your translation points out, these kinds of sentence do not really carry any definite sense of time within them - you would have to work it out from the surrounding sentences (which you don't have in this exercise!) > 4. iw tA m rS.wt ra m p.t > The earth is in rejoicing when Ra is in the sky. > 5. nfr.wy pr=k pn sA=k sA.t=k im > This house of yours is (so) beautiful when your son and your daughter are in it. This isn't quite the way I would have translated it, but it definitely is a very good translation, but take the "so" out of parentheses, it is needed to carry the meaning of nfr.wy ("so beautiful!" or "how beautiful!") > 6. iw=f Hr ii.t r niwt tn > He is coming into this city. > --- > 1. iw sS m pr=f > 2. iw sHt.y m Xnw > 3. iw dpt m wAD wr > 4. iw=s m pr sA.t=s Hna The conjuction/preposition Hna needs to come first in its phrase: Hna sA.t=s "with her daughter" > 5. iw sHt.y m rS.wt ra m p.t > 6. iw s.t m pr Hr iri.t t sHt.y m AH.t > 7. iw Hm=f r ii.t r niwt tn dpt m itrw > 8. Sorry, I will need some help to translate these sentences. > I don't know words like "honey", "taste" and "sweet". OK. The words you say you need are: honey bi.t taste dpt (with a det. of man with hand to mouth) sweet bnr (usually spelled bnri) So give that one another try now! -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 23:55:07 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL How to Pronounce Egyptian Sorry to drop this topic on the list and get everyone interested and then vanish for 6 days! However, I did have a laptop with me (but no internet access) so I wrote the following while I was away. Please note that I am not talking about how Egyptologists pronounce Egyptian, because from all I have seen, heard and read, they mostly don't CARE how it was pronounced. I ran into serious problems needing to be able to understand some verb nuances without knowing how to pronounce them, and had to work on finding out. As a number of people have said, it is indeed difficult to learn a language with no idea of howit sounds! ------------------------- A number of people have expressed interest in information on pronouncing Egyptian; and a number have also expressed some skepticism about my offer to discuss this. While it is true that we do not, and never will (until someone takes a tape recorder beck to ancient Egypt with them!) know how Egyptian was pronounced at any given time, we do know a certain amount about it - more than is generally covered in the textbooks. However I shall do my best to provide some guidance, the best that I have been able to piece together. One of the most accessible (though not necessarily easy to read) books which deals with this topic to any extent is Loprieno, _Ancient Egyptian: A Linguistic Introduction_. HOW TO PRONOUNCE EGYPTIAN Unfortunately, most books on ancient Egyptian give basically no guidance on this topic, limiting themselves to saying that you can shove in a short 'e' wherever needed to make things pronounceable. I think enough is known about the actual pronunciation of Middle Egyptian that we should be able to do a little better than that without getting ourselves too far into disputed territory. First of all, to review what you probably already are aware of: 1) The Egyptians wrote only the consonants of their language, since these were the stable parts of words, and left the vowels out entirely, since they were variable. The Semitic alphabet, represented today by Hebrew and Arabic, inherited this, since these languages had a structure very similar to that of Egyptian. Only when the Greeks borrowed the alphabet did signs for the vowels appear. 2) To make things pronounceable, Egyptologists add a short 'e' sound between consonants. They also tend to pronounce the characters 3 and < as 'a', and frequently treat 'i' and 'w' as though they were the vowels i and u. This is partly a carryover from the original decipherment of hieroglyphs, which was done using the Ptolemaic transcriptions of Greek and Roman names, which did use these characters in this way. However, this is NOT a correct way of dealing with the pronunciation of Middle Egyptian. 3) The pronunciation of the Egyptian language changed greatly over the course of its history. This had a considerable influence on the grammar of the language too. Here I am going to be talking about "Middle Egyptian," the official written language of the Middle Kingdom, though what I say here will have some applicability to older and later dialects of Egyptian CONSONANTS The first and most obvious aspect of pronouncing Egyptian is the consonants, which the Egyptians themselves wrote down. There is an interesting page discussing the pronunciation of these consonants created by Kelley Ross at: . Unfortunately we don't really know how some of these sounded in the Middles Kingdom. The one which is most discussed is the one represented in transliterations as '3' and usually assigned the value of 'glottal stop.' However evidence shows that this was not the case in the Old and Middle Kingdoms; that whatever sound it represented could be used to transcribe 'r' or 'l' in foreign words, and when doubled, sounded to the Egyptians like an 'n'. You'll have to make your own best guess from that (Geoff Graham generally treats it as an 'l'). However, the generally agreed on sounds will be adequate for our purposes (though you may have to practice a little to get the sound of < ('ayin') right!) It should also be mentioned that in the Middle Kingdom, there was no distinction between s and z, the signs for these are interchanged quite freely. Also, the difference between t and T seems to have pretty much disappeared also, since we frequently find one substituted for the other. Whether you want to make a distinction in your own pronunciation is up to you. SYLLABLES AND VOWELS It is generally agreed that the Egyptian language in the Middle Kingdom had six vowels: a, i, and u, each in long and short versions. The 'e' used conventionally in pronouncing Egyptian was even part of the language at that time. Basing a guess on what I know of Semitic languages, the most common, "default" vowel was probably 'a,' either long or short. (If I need to indicate a long vowel in these essays, I shall put a colon ":" after the vowel.) For purposes of learning Middle Egyptian, though, we can probably survive with using the conventional 'e,' since we don't always really know which vowels were used. But if you prefer to use 'a' wherever you don't have reasonable evidence as to what the actual vowel was, you will probably get a sound somewhat closer to the original. The big question that arises from the usual conventional instructions for pronouncing Egyptian words is "Where do you put the 'e's?" I mean, should we pronounce "nfr" as "nefer," "nefre," "enfer," or "enfre?" Well, as a start, you should probably limit yourself to making syllables of the types CvC (consonant-vowel-consonant) or Cv (consonant-vowel). This cuts our choices down to "nefer" or "nefre." You can also be guided by the rule of thumb that words should begin and end with consonants. (As we go along we shall meet situations where these rules are broken, but they give a reasonable starting point at least.) So for the moment, words with 3 consonants would come out as CvCvC: nfr nefer sDm seDem mr(i) mere(i) And so on. But what about words with 4 consonants? This is indeed a more complex situation, and I would suggest that one of two patterns should be used: CvCvCvC or CvCCvC. The first is probably most suitable for feminine forms of nouns, the latter for feminine forms of adjectives: nTr neTer nTr.t neTeret nfr nefer nfr.t nefret We shall discuss the reasons and evidence for this later. One aspect of Egyptian pronunciation that people don't usually think about is "stress." Which syllables were accented. It seems to me from the way the Egyptian language developed that not only did it have a very definite stress accent in words and phrases, but that, like English, it was a "stress-timed" language, rather than a "syllable-timed" language, like Japanese. By this I mean that the time between accented syllables tended to be about the same, rather than each syllable taking about the same time. This resulted over the course of time in unaccented syllables being lost. The rule for Middle Kingdom Egyptian is that the accent was usually on the second-last syllable, or sometimes on the last syllable. As examples, using a capital E to represent a stressed vowel: nTr nETer nTr.t neTEret nfr nEfer nfr.t nEfret sDm sEdem SYLLABLE-FINAL CONSONANTS Having discussed syllables a little, I can now add in some more about the pronunciation of some of the consonants. The weak consonants, i and w tended to become silent, especially at the ends of syllables. This is evident in the case of the weak verbs, which you have met somewhat in the Grammar lessons. Mr(i) mere(i) The strong consonants r and t also tended to disappear at the ends of syllables. We can see this by the effect it sometimes had on spelling: 1) bnr (sweet) is usually spelled bnri because the final r sounded like a weak consonant (i), indicating the pronunciation bener. However, the feminine form is spelled bnrt, indicating that the r was still heard, and indicating a pronunciation of benre(t). The same thing happens with the verb swr, "drink," which is usually spelled swri, indicating a pronunciation as sewe (which probably was actually sa:wa, becoming so: in Coptic). 2) the preposition Hr is usually spelled with just the Hr sign, but when followed by a pronoun suffix is spelled with an extra r sign, indicating that probably the word was pronounced He(r) by itself, but Href when the suffix =f was attached to it. >From this you should see that we can get at least some clues to how words were divided into syllables from the contemporary spelling variations of the Egyptian scribes themselves. There is also evidence about this which can be derived from studying how the word forms end up in Coptic. Sometimes the two lines of evidence contradict each other, and we are left to decide whether we trust the contemporary scribes or our reconstructions from Coptic more. Anyway, I think that is probably sufficient to get you started for now. I will write some more on this later, after you have had chance to digest this and ask questions about it. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 00:05:06 +0000 Subject: AEL (Fwd) Adverbial Sentences - Review See http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/exercises/ADV-EX2.GIF for the hieroglyphs of this exercise. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 15:21:36 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer Reply-to: sfryer@prcn.org Organization: Lund Computer Services To: Mark Wilson Subject: Adverbial Sentences - Review I have written some more about Adverbial Sentences and continuing on from there, however I didn't have time to create the image files for the examples and exercises. In the meantime, I had created a "review" exercise, so here it isalong with a bit of a summary of what was already said about these sentences. The next section of "lesson" will follow soon (deo volente!). I didn't have time to create a vocabulary list, and these are sentences taken from actual texts, so I haven't put the same sort of limits on the words used as I try to do if I'm making up my own (usually based on something I have read in Egyptian). I hope this won't be too much of a hardship, but as usual you can ask for assistance either on list or directly to me. ------------------ Adverbial Sentences - Review Adverbial Phrases Egyptian has a shortage of words functioning as adverbs, and makes use of adverbial phrases instead. These are made up of [Preposition]+[Noun]. The noun could be replaced by a pronoun. It could also e an infinitive, since that is a verbal noun. Sentence Patterns Basic sentence patterns which we have already seen are: iw + [Noun] + [Adverb] iw =[Suffix] + [Adverb] Adverbial Clauses An adverbial clause is a subsidiary sentence which tells about the circumstances in which the main part of the sentence occurs. Its structure may be: [Noun] + [Adverb] iw=[Suffix] + [Adverb] Notice that the first is distinguished by its lack of the sentence particle; the second pattern uses the particle iw to support the pronoun suffix, and can be more difficult to distinguish from a main sentence. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 16:29:40 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Exercise 3 Ivo Marinov wrote: > I have used the holidays to do this exercise. Here are my answers: I hope you left yourself time for other things too! > 2. rx ptH sxr pn > Ptah knows this plan. > 3. xd nDs pn r niw.t iw pr m rS.wt > When this citizen floats (in a boat) downstream, (his) house is in joy. Oops... you missed out the adverbial phrase r niwt "to the city." xd could be translated simply as "travel downstream," or "go north" > 4. wbn iaH m pt > The moon shines in the sky. > 5. gr sS m hrw m grH > The scribe is silent during the day and the night. > 6. iw tA pn m rS.wt hAi t wiA > This land is in joy when Ra goes down to the lake (?). This should end with r wiA. wiA is a "bark" the kind of boat the gods travel in, as in the festival processions. Also the boat Re' crosses the sky in by day and the underworld by night is referrred to by this name. > 7. iw S m niw.t tn > The (???) is in this city. S (spelled this way) is a pool or lake of the sort people had in their gardens. > 8. sDm s.t tn n sS > This woman listens to the scribe. sDm [Noun1] n [Noun2] can also mean [Noun1] obeys [Noun2] > 9. iw s im m pr > The man is there, in the house. Good job! -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 20:22:06 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List CC: blochprint@zelacom.com Subject: Re: AEL pWestcar vocab. Julie Purple wrote: > Anyhow, the problem with this, is that often the lines are too long to fit > onto the page, even when I make it "landscape" rather than "portrait" > format. And I have *never* had any success trying to convince the > information to go from netscape to *any* other program wherein I > might reduce the whole shebang to a size to fit. I don't know whether you're aware of it, but all those neat lines of hieroglyphs are in a picture. If you click the right-hand mouse button (if you have a Mac, I don't know what you have to do) on the picture in Netscape it will give you a menu, one option of which allows you to save the image to disk. just select where on the disk you want it to go; don't mess with the name. Then you can open the saved picture with something like (what I use) Paint Shop Pro, which allows you to view the image, and to print it out adjusted to page size. It's too bad that browsers don't let you print with adjustment to page size, but we just have to live with it at the moment, and work around it! -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: Aayko To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL G1: Vocatives (was:AEL question) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 20:19:04 +-100 VOCATIVES and INTERJECTIONS >>First of all you might put a vocative j in front of the statement. j Spsj.t, jj=j xft wD=T wj O, august-one, it is when you command me that I come. ***I looked up vocative and related subjects, and deduced: 1- a vocative sentence is when addressing a person or thing 2- this is often done with some interjection at the start of the sentence to call the attention of the one addressed (sometimes being the reader). 3- the addressed nomen often has a deictic pronomen (= demonstrative pronoun, 'this'/'these' ) added. is pn qd.n.tw=k... = "Tomb, you have been built.." (lit.: "this tomb (here before me), you...") i S3b.t.y[.w] i.pn ir.y n # pn = "O shabtis, made for #" (lit."O these shabtis, made for this #") (i.pn is archaic; # indicates a name) Much used interjections are: - j = "O!" common example: i To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL learn (was: AEL question) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 20:18:59 +-100 Raven said: >Wait a minute, you mean some people don't consider translating long texts fun? **Well, 'fun use' meant to imply a casual, playfull use, while translating examples can quickly appear 'schoolish'. I know too much people (me included) who are storing the AELlist material into some mailbox, with the good intention to apply oneself...L-A-T-E-R. Even more that will apply for using long texts, as it is less attractive for a new-comer to jump upon the wagon. Short, more or less rounded modules are for starters more attractive, with little bits being fed - and swallowed immediately. I think the above two things can explain the lack of feedback the moderators mentionned earlier. (Btw the recent modules on Pronunciation, Adverbs, etc.are very good; keep it chunky i.e. small and swallowable per (three) day(s) for starting pupils. Of course little chunks will also be lighter on the teachers who have to pull the wagon.) Perhaps it would be an idea to start marking posts with a code: G1: kindergarten - pure basics G2: high school - exercises and more grammar (verbs) G3: advanced - into the depths of hell (see quote below) For if someone comes on list, and the first thing he sees is: >To my knowledge the continuative/circumstantial sDm.n=f is used in a >subclause after a preceding particle+circumstantial sDm.n=f in the main >sentence. etc etc then he will run off, screaming..! :)) "Me learning AE? - hopeless!" If it is marked G3, then he would hopefully knows "okay, I'm not intimidated, I read these without worry and store them for later use, but for now I tackle the G1's, and in that grade I can post ANY silly question (coded G1) without fear of embarresment. Something like that. Would that work? All avid lurkers speak up. Are Good Intentions not abounding vs. the Real Applying? And how to change that? Best wishes, Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== From: MWhealton Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 18:14:14 EST To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Westcar p5,6; sAXbw, Rm.wy In a message dated 97-12-31 19:56:26 EST, you write: << The two-fish canal (Rm.wy) has the description: "(viell Kanal Zat el-om, zwischen Nilarm von Rosette und Bahr el-Labani)" Can someone translate that for me please. Thanks, Mike Dyall-Smith >> Here's the english: "Perhaps the Zat el-om channel, between the Rosetta Branch of the Nile and BaHr el-Labani" Kanal can be either canal (man made) or channel as a geographic term. Regards, Matt ============================================================================== From: imarinov@lnd.internet-bg.bg (Ivo Marinov) To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: RE: AEL Exercise 4 Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 11:54:05 +0200 Hi Stephen, thank you for comments on my answers! Now, with your help, I think I'm = ready to translate the last two sentences of this exercise. So, here is = my attempt: 8. bnr.wy dpt (n) bi.t nfr r ix.t nb.t sw Best wishes, Ivo. ============================================================================== From: imarinov@lnd.internet-bg.bg (Ivo Marinov) To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: RE: AEL Happy new year! Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 13:09:08 +0200 Hello, I'd like to wish to all of you people of this list Happy New Year! Thank = you for giving me the chance to learn AEL. You have no idea how hard is = to find any information about it in my country. The only way to learn = something about the subject is the web and about 90% of my (yet) humble = knowledge I owe to this list. So, thank you again and good luck! Yours, Ivo. Sofia, Bulgaria. ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 22:47:45 +1100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P11/L11- Dear Mark et al., Thanks for pushing to the end. Looks pretty good to me. Here is a comment about line 11, which I shaped around comments found in Antonio Loprieno's book. I've discovered he has used quite a few Westcar examples in his book, and has listed precisely where they are so one can easily look them up. I am very impressed with this little book, which packs a punch much larger than its size would suggest. If he would only write a grammar! >P11/L11 >aHa.n Dd.n=f n=s Hnw.t=i irr=T pA-ib Hr-mi >Then he said to her my mistress, why is the heart acting like this ? O my mistress, why (hr-m, "on what") are you in this mood (irr=T pA ib "you make this heart"). This sentence is used as an example by A. Loprieno in his book, Ancient Egyptian (see p.192). The sentence, "Why are you in this mood" exemplifies a topicalised verbal predicate that is placed in clause initial position. In this particular case the verb is in the aorist tense, so the unmarked sDm=f is converted to the nominal/emphatic/second tense form, characterised by reduplication (or gemination) of the second consonant in 3rd weak verbs, so we have irr beginning the sentence instead of iri. The second tense verb form shifts the focus to the circumstances of the action (the 'how, where, when and why' as James Hoch describes it in section 148 of his grammar). In this example I suppose it is emphasising the adverbial phrase Hr-mi, 'on what'), so the speaker is not just politely asking, but pleading for a reason as to why she is so downcast. Comments please. Mike Dyall-Smith ******************************** Mike Dyall-Smith, Melbourne, Australia m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au ******************************** ============================================================================== From: "Anpwhotep" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Date: Fri, 02 Jan 98 21:38:16 -0700 Subject: Re: AEL learn (was: AEL question) On Fri, 2 Jan 1998 20:18:59 +-100, Aayko wrote: >Perhaps it would be an idea to start marking posts >with a code: >G1: kindergarten - pure basics >G2: high school - exercises and more grammar (verbs) >G3: advanced - into the depths of hell (see quote >below) >Something like that. Would that work? All avid >lurkers speak up. Are Good Intentions not >abounding vs. the Real Applying? And how to >change that? > >Best wishes, >Aayko Eyma Coming from a beginner here, I would LOVE to see something like that, since my only previous learning has been the first book of Barbara Watterson's introduction, and I'd like to be able to feel like I can at least follow the lessons... :) - -- Anpwhotep, Hm Ntrw, Wab Anpw inpwhtp@ix.netcom.com Hail to you, you having come as Khepri, even Khepri who is creator of the gods. You rise and shine on the back of your mother, having appeared in glory as the King of the gods. Your mother Nut shall use her arms on your behalf in making greeting. ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 20:52:56 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Missing from How to Pronounce Egyptian I realize I left out the address of Kelley Ross's page on pronunciation when I sent the message on pronunciation. It is: http://www.friesian.com/egypt.htm -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 23:20:56 +1100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P11/L12 Dear Mark et al., here are some comments on line 12. >P11/L12 >aHa.n Dd.n=s tA-pw kti.t xpr.t m pA-pr >Then she said "It is (because of ) the girl who lived in this house" An interesting construction. I think it is a bipartite nominal sentence. The paradigm for these is the sentence consisting of two nouns, representing the predicate and subject, rmT pw, 'It is a man'. However when the first noun is not simply one word, but a phrase, then the pw tends to jump up to near the beginning of the sentence, generally taking up the 2nd position if possible. So we see in the pWestcar example, there are two nominal phrases; a) The subject, the demonstrative pronoun 'pw', 'it is' b) The predicate, 'the girl who was in the house' The dem. pron. 'pw' has slipped in to the second word position in the sentence, so disrupting the predicate. The clue here is that 'tA' is not generally a lone word, and the it looks very much like 'tA' and 'kti.t' should be together (can you see why?). Regards, Mike ******************************** Mike Dyall-Smith, Melbourne, Australia m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au ******************************** ============================================================================== To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: CatGuy@lamg.com Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 08:32:40 -0800 Subject: Re: AEL pWestcar vocab. In message ID <34AC6B6E.57402FD4@prcn.org> on 1/1/98, Ancient Egyptian Language List wrote: AELL> If you click the right-hand mouse button (if you have a Mac, AELL> I don't know what you have to do) on the picture in Netscape it AELL> will give you a menu, one option of which allows you to save the AELL> image to disk. just select where on the disk you want it to go; AELL> don't mess with the name. On a Mac, you just hold down the mouse button. If you don't immediately start doing something with your selection (and you can drag and drop the picture from the web page onto your desktop or into any open document in any other program), then a contextual menu pops up with all the legal actions for the selected item (in this case, the selected item is a picture and one of the legal actions is saving it to the disk). This works for all Macintosh programs, not just web browsers. I think the drag and drop is an easier method, and if you hold the dragged picture over a folder or hard disk, it will open up and you can continue to use that method (called "drilling down") to get to any exact folder anywhere (including across a network) before "dropping". Julie Purple wrote: > Anyhow, the problem with this, is that often the lines are too long to fit > onto the page, even when I make it "landscape" rather than "portrait" > format. And I have *never* had any success trying to convince the > information to go from netscape to *any* other program wherein I > might reduce the whole shebang to a size to fit. The above applies to BOTH pictures and text (at least on a Mac). For a picture, you just click anywhere in the picture. For text, you click and drag to mark the text you want to select. Another option, depending on what software you have on your machine, you can choose to save a web page as "source". This saves all the HTML stuff (which is difficult to read as plain text), which means that any program that recognizes HTML tags (not just browsers anymore) can interpret the page for you. As an example, if you have a recent word processor, you can use your browser to save the web page as source, then open that document with your word processor and use your word processor's abilities to change the appearance to your liking. ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 09:34:21 +1100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P11/L17 Dear Mark et al., > P11/L17 > Hnw.t=i xni sy ii.ti r Dd n=i /////////// > iri.y=s A r gs=i > my mistress, she spoke as she was passing in order to say to me ????? > she went off at my side ??? 'xni' is cited by Faulkner as a non-enclitic particle in Westcar. It is normally a noun ('speech, utterance, matter, affair). In this example, it supports a dependent pronoun attached (not a suffix pronoun). The dep. pron. 'sy' is the subject of the following stative (fem. suffix ending, .ti) ii.ti. Under these conditions, 'xni' I think would be considered a non-enclitic (ie. can stand alone at the start of a sentence) particle. Another non-enclitic particle that could have been used would be 'mk' (see). So why use this one? Can anyone suggest a meaning? Mark has given a verbal translation ('she spoke'), but I think it should conform more to some kind of exclamatory tone, eg. '*Say*, she came to speak to me...." Now, a question. Why use the stative of 'ii' in this sentence? Why not a construction with sDm.n=f? Is 'ir.y' a prospective verb form? The meaning could be something like "[and she asked if] she could make tracks beside me." There is that rare word 'A' again, which is probably a verb ("tread, make tracks") and was used earlier in pWestcar, but there are so few instances of its use it is difficult to get a full idea of its meaning. This highlights the way egyptian has been deciphered: using all instances of words in the various texts and interpreting their meaning from context (and determinatives, etc.). So my analysis would be for this section: a prospective verb form (ir.y), suffix pronoun (=s), infinitive (of 'A' ?, 'a treading'), prepositional phrase ("beside me"). Comments please Mike D-S ******************************** Mike Dyall-Smith, Melbourne, Australia m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au ******************************** ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 21:46:04 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List CC: Ivo Marinov Subject: Re: AEL Exercise 4 Ivo Marinov wrote: > thank you for comments on my answers! Now, with your help, I think I'm ready to translate the last two sentences of this exercise. So, here is my attempt: > > 8. bnr.wy dpt (n) bi.t nfr r ix.t nb.t sw Well, Ivo, that is almost right. The main problem is word order in the second sentence. This is basically an adjectival sentence in Egyptian: [Adjective] [Subject] nfr sw meaning "It is good." In any type of sentence you can usually expect the adverbs that give the HOW or WHERE or WHEN of things to come last in order. And that is essentially what the comparative is - a (adverbial) prepositional phrase: [Adjective] [Subject] [Adverb] nfr sw r xt nb.t In the first sentence you are right that you don't need the n (Genitival Adjective is its name), as the Direct Genitive - [Noun1] [Noun2] - is used. I would like to comment, to everyone, that one excellent way to learn anything is by having your mistakes corrected (or seeing someone else's mistakes corrected - much less embarrassing for you). If you never try things and make mistakes, your learning is likely to be both slower and less. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 03:34:50 -0500 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: blochprint@zelacom.com Subject: Re: AEL question It is so great to be able to work on the texts, especially when the stories are so much fun. (Okay, I'm mostly just following along; so far, my translation attempts are... funky. ) But stlll, it's really neat. As for making up things ourselves, I think that is a major help in *really* learning this... You know how it is when you're learning a new language, it's easier to understand than to speak... but it's the speaking that makes it more solid. My correspondence course is fine, but it is mostly translation, and hardly any making up my own sentences. :-( I realize it's trickier to correct home-made sentences, but geeze... so...about this *other* "fun use"... I like the concept of minimal tricky grammar; I'm in kindergarten AE, too... and as for lacking determinatives... well, I really do miss the pictures. It is great to do texts on-line, as it were, but is anybody interested in doing a bit of snail-mail correspondence? That way we could actually do the little pictures... I mean, write hieroglyphs. Any takers? Julie >> with a minimum of tricky grammar. So in kindergarten-AE. >> >> I suppose that lacking det.s will make it hard to write >> AE in transcription, without it becoming hard to understand? >> >> I must say that learning by such 'fun use' (learning by doing) >> has more attraction to me than cramming theorethical rules or translating >> long texts. Also in modern language teachings, the method seems to be >> learning by doing, by listening and speaking right from start, and bother >> about the writing and grammar later cq. along the way (so the reverse of the >> old school method - those of you who ever learned German will know >> what I mean :-) ) >> >> Thanks, >> Aayko Eyma > > > >Hey, > >Wait a minute, you mean some people don't consider translating long >texts fun? >Raven I do, I do... even if I'm not good at it yet! > Julie Bloch blochprint@zelacom.com * * * (@v@) * * * ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 16:44:35 +0100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Hans van Haarst Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P11 L1-2 At 02:14 1-1-98 +1100, you wrote: >Dear Hans et al., > >>L1 : iri.w is irr=T pA iy.t Hr-im=i >> What do you do ? To me do you come >>L1 starts with a passive sDm=f used impersonally. Then follows the >>interrogatory particle 'is'. So literally this means something like : "Is >>there being acted ?" > > I am troubled by this line. Is this truly a 2 word sentence? [iri.w >is]. Do you have another example of such a sentence? Can you elaborate on >what you think the first verb form is? Geoff transliterated it as: iri is >(irr.t pA-ii.t tp-im=i), yet you have added the .w > > A sDm.w=f passive is a past tense form, and in ME would not normally >begin a sentence without an initial particle. Perhaps you mean a passive >participle used as a noun. Since there is no gemination, this limits the >type of participle somewhat (eg. perfect passive, prospective passive). It >can't refer to the woman who has come into his presence, as it does not >have a .t ending. > > So, it must refer to the act/deed in general. The 'is' could be an >interrogative, or just an enclitic 'indeed!'. Perhaps the 'is' simply >introduces the clause which explains the 'act/deed', eg. >"A thing done indeed ! " Dear Mike, The passive sDm=f can be used in 2 ways. 1. As an initial verbal verbform just like the indicative sDm=f. 2. As a circumstantial verbform : A. After certain particles like aHa.n or iw B. As substitute for the circumstantial *sDm.n.tw=f I think we are dealing here with case 1, so there is no need for a initial particle. Furthermore the passive sDm=f is very often used impersonally : Sin. B247 : Sbb.w atx.w tp-mAa=i Next to me one kneaded and brewed (Is my English correct ? Otherwise tell me, because sometimes it is quite difficult for me to translate the nuances properly) A distinctive mark of the passive sDm=f is the morpheme .w That is why I wrote iri.w >>Next follows a new sentence that consists of a nominal/emphatic sDm=f : >>irr=T ,the object : pA iy.t and the adverbial adjunct/vedette : Hr-im=i. >>L2 : iw=i Hr snsn wTs.t >> and now I am getting involved in treason ! > > I agree the verb 'irr' looks like it should be a nominal/emphatic/second >tense form (see Hoch, lesson 12). I note your transliteration has 'Hr-im='i >rather than 'tp-im=i'. This may change your translation somewhat (?). I >have tried to keep the nature of this second tense verb (irr) evident in >the following translation. The verb focusses attention on the 'why, where, >how, when, etc.' of the event, rather than the event itself. I felt the >focus was not simply that she has come before him, but that by doing so she >has compromised him. >[ie.]... By (your) making this coming before me *I am mingling with accused >persons!*" The Hr-im is a mistake, I meant tp-im but wrote Hr-im. The subject of irr I wrote T and not t, because T is M.E. 2.s.f. The difficulty which I have with these 2 sentences irr=T pA iy.t tp-im=i iw=i Hr snsn wTs.t is that iw=i Hr snsn wTs.t means 'while I am ...' and not 'so that I am ...', a prospective sDm=f would have been used then : snsn=i wTs.t. Therefore I considered tp-im=i to be the vedette. However in the Blackmanedition I found : irt=t, still another possibility ? I hope that someone else in this group can clarify these 2 lines. Best wishes, Hans van Haarst email-adres: hans@knor.demon.nl ==============================================================================