From: "Leslie Bailey" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL AEgyptian Religion Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 20:32:22 -0500 -----Original Message----- From: Katherine Griffis To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Cc: SDmtwi@aol.com Date: Sunday, December 07, 1997 8:01 PM Subject: RE: AEL AEgyptian Religion >The following are of particular interest in the study of divine kingship: > >_Theological Principles of Egyptian Religion_, Vincent Arieh Tobin, Peter >Lang, 1989. > >_Kingship and the Gods: A Study of Ancient Near Eastern Religion as the >Integration of Society and Nature_, Henri Frankfort, Univ od Chicago Press, >1948/1978. > >It is my understanding that there is a more recent book on the study of >divine kingship than Frankfort's (which has been the standard for many >years), but that title is not before me at the moment. Perhaps Geoff >Graham or other AEL members may be able to supply you with that title. >From _Ancient Egyptian Kingship_ , edited by David O'Connor and David P. Silverman (Probleme der Aegyptologie, E.J. Brill, 1995), I quote from John Baines' chapter entitled "Kingship, Definition of Culture and Legitimation": "Answers that have been given to how far the king was divine have varied from its almost fervent exaltation in Henri Frankfort's classic _Kingship and the Gods_ (1948) to the deliberate skepticism of Georges Posener's _De la divinite du pharaon_ (1960...), which was presented in large part as a corrective to views like those of Frankfort."(p. 5) ============================================================================== From: Neil Parker Subject: Re: AEL (Fwd) Two Games To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 00:39:55 -0800 (PST) The easy one was...well...easy. 1. wjA, boat 2. s.gnn, to annoint 3. msH, crocodile 4. mfkA.t, turqouise 5. xsbD, lapis lazuli 6. bjn, evil 7. hrw, day 8. jH.t, cow 9. AH.t, field 10. nDs, little 11. hj, to rejoice? 12. jA.t, tomb 13. s.t, woman 14. sr, high official 15. p.t, sky 16. ptr, to look 17. ra, Ra (the sun god) 18. Xrd, child 19. aDd, youth 20. Tsm, greyhound 21. sAq, to gather together 22. jrT.t, milk 23. hr(j), to be satisfied (or hr(w), to be content) 24. ngAw, ox or bull I'm going to have to pass on parts I and II of the hard one...none of the references at my disposal has anything to say about difficult, enigmatic, or cryptic writings. I look forward to learning from those of you who know something about the subject. But I think I can at least guess at part III: "Lo, the majesty of Shu was the beautiful king of the sky, earth, and underworld, and of air, water, mountains, and sea, maker of laws, and lord on the throne of his father Ra-Harmachis, true of voice. Now the majesty of Shu was in his capital of..." - Neil Parker, nparker@llx.com P.S. Looking more closely at part I, I think I recognize a few of them: 17. jty, king 19. Xr-Hb, a class of priest 20. Hnmm.t, mankind 27. wm, to eat ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 00:33:27 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Game 6 (beginners) Hi, Leslie, Well, it looks like you got all these just fine, except for 13, 19, and 20. Good work. Geoff > 1. wj3 sacred bark > 2. sgnn tallow > 3. mzH crocodile > 4. mfk3t turquoise > 5. xzbD lapis-lazuli > 6. bjn (be) bad, miserable > 7. hrw day, daytime > 8. jHt cow > 9. 3Ht field > 10. nDs commoner, citizen > 11. hj husband > 12. j3t mound > 13. zt ? > 14. sr official, noble > 15. pt sky > 16. ptr behold, see > 17. r` Ra > 18. Xrd child > 19. `Dd ? > 20. Tzjm ? > 21. s3q pull together > 22. jrTt milk > 23. hr(t) peace, pleasantness > 24. ng3w long horned bull ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 00:47:45 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P9 L28 - P10 L5 Hi, Hans, It looks to me like you know your Egyptian very well, and I could hardly be of much help to you. ;-P > kA in ra-wsr rdi=f n=sn DbA iry m-xt iw=f > Then it will be Raweser who will give them the payment of it after he has > returned. That's what I would have said too. > SAs pw ir.n tA wbA.t wn.n=s tA a.t > The maidservant set off. She opened the room. I see no difficulty with wn.n=s being circumstantial sDm.n=f, as you do below, however, because the circumstantial sDm.n=f is often translatable as "and he/she did such-and-such". So I would just say: "Setting out is what the maidservant did, and she opened the room." Or less formally: "The maidservant went out and opened the room." > aHa.n sDm.n=s xrw Hsi Sma xbt wAg irr.t nbt n nsw m tA at > Then she heard the noise of singing, musicmaking, dancing and jubilation > ((in short) all the things usually done for a king) in the room. Exactly! I could not have done it better. Both Hzj and Sm` are verbs meaning "sing" so you are right to try and differentiate them somehow so the English is varied. It is also good the way you got that habituality in for jrr.t with its gemination. > SAs pw ir.n=s wn.in=s Hr wHm sDm.t.n=s nb.t n rdDd.t > The maidservant set off and repeated to Rededjedet all she had heard. Yes, this sounds just right too. Slightly more literally: "It was setting out which the maidservant did, and then she was repeating everything which she had heard to Reddjedet." Of course, yours is in better English than this, but I wanted to show exactly how each part works. Nice work, Hans! Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 22:14:08 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Westcar P10, L6-8 To: to AEL REGARDING Westcar P10, L6-8 This is a pretty exciting storyline! Hans got to line 5; > SAs pw ir.n tA wbA.t wn.n=s tA a.t > The maidservant set off. She opened the room.#000# Continuing: L6: wn.in=s Hr dbn tA-a.t n gmi.n=s bw irr.w st im "Then she moved around the room without finding [lit. she does not find] the place where it came from [lit. "the place where one is making it"]. irr.w I take as an imperfect passive participle L7-8: #000#aHa.n rdi.n=s mAa=s r pA-XAr gmi.n=s iri=tw m-Xnw=f#000# "Then she put her head to a sack [of grain] and she found it came [lit. "it was made"; a .tw passive] from within it" Come on guys (ie. the generic term), this is pretty easy with Geoff's translit. and the 'clickable' vocab I've set up. Someone else jump in please. Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:09:52 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL (Fwd) Two Games Hi, Neil, Good job. > 1. wjA, boat > 2. s.gnn, to annoint > 3. msH, crocodile > 4. mfkA.t, turqouise > 5. xsbD, lapis lazuli > 6. bjn, evil > 7. hrw, day > 8. jH.t, cow > 9. AH.t, field > 10. nDs, little > 11. hj, to rejoice? No, "husband" > 12. jA.t, tomb > 13. s.t, woman > 14. sr, high official > 15. p.t, sky > 16. ptr, to look > 17. ra, Ra (the sun god) > 18. Xrd, child > 19. aDd, youth > 20. Tsm, greyhound > 21. sAq, to gather together > 22. jrT.t, milk > 23. hr(j), to be satisfied (or hr(w), to be content) > 24. ngAw, ox or bull > But I think I can at least guess at part III: > > "Lo, the majesty of Shu was the beautiful king of the sky, earth, and > underworld, and of air, water, mountains, and sea, maker of laws, and lord > on the throne of his father Ra-Harmachis, true of voice. Now the majesty of > Shu was in his capital of..." "Ra-Harmachis" should be "Re-Harakhty". > P.S. Looking more closely at part I, I think I recognize a few of them: > 17. jty, king Yes! > 19. Xr-Hb, a class of priest Yes, a "Lector Priest" > 20. Hnmm.t, mankind Yes! > 27. wm, to eat Yes, wnm "eat"! Very very good! See, this part is not entirely impossible. Just think how much we will all lean when we can get it finished! Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 18:59:41 +0000 From: atlixco To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Nephthys Graham wrote: > Hello, Atlixco, > > Striclty speaking much of this post is not necessary relevant to the topic > of the list. However, I ask that you all indulge me briefly. It might be > more appropriate, however, to discuss this question on the Osiris List. > > By the way there is > > a word in english derived from the greek that may relate to undoing the > > mystery of Nephthys (of whom I am told there is not much related > > openly); can you guess what it is? > > It is highly unlikely that any Greek word would have bearing on the > meaning and character of Nephthys, because the Greek world and the Greek > language came into contact with Egypt very late in its history. > > Yours, Geoff Graham > sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu Dear Graham, Thank you very much for your illuminating reply. I was not aware that there was an Osiris List. Is it any good? And how do you get on it? By the way the word I was thinking of was Naphtha. Whether this has any relation or not is off topic but there you go. yours atlixco ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 21:20:30 +0100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Hans van Haarst Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P9 L28 - P10 L5 At 00:47 8-12-97 -0500, you wrote: >> SAs pw ir.n tA wbA.t wn.n=s tA a.t >> The maidservant set off. She opened the room. > >I see no difficulty with wn.n=s being circumstantial sDm.n=f, as you do Hi, Geoff So far as I know a circumstantial sDm.n=f in a subclause expresses time prior to the time of the main sentence. So in this case the translation would be: "The maidservant set off after she had opened the room." This is not very likely because in the next line we know which room is meant : not the room where she is now but another room. Otherwise maybe you could see the room (a.t) as a totum pro parte for door. The other difficulty is that according to theory Egyptian sentences can not begin with a circumstantial subclause, except for some expressions of time. Otherwise 'wn.n=s tA a.t' could be considered as a subclause preceding the main sentence 'aHa.n sDm.n=s ... '. That is the reason why I suggested the verbform wn.n=s to be the indicative sDm.n=f. In that case you get two sentences. 1. SAs pw ir.n tA wbA.t 2. wn.n=s tA a.t > the circumstantial sDm.n=f is often translatable >as "and he/she did such-and-such". So I would just say: "Setting out is >what the maidservant did, and she opened the room." Or less formally: >"The maidservant went out and opened the room." If you translate a circumstantial sDm.n=f as "...,and she opened the room" you get a plain sentence and this is exactly the translation of an indicative verbform. So I think there are two possible solutions for this problem A. Accept the existence of an indicative sDm.n=f B. Accept the fact that a circumstantial verbform can precede a main sentence. Please correct me if I am wrong. Best wishes, Hans van Haarst email-adres: hans@knor.demon.nl ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:27:08 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P10, L6-8 Hi, Mike, > L6: wn.in=s Hr dbn tA-a.t n gmi.n=s bw irr.w st im > "Then she moved around the room without finding [lit. she does not find] > the place where it came from [lit. "the place where one is making it"]. > irr.w I take as an imperfect passive participle "Then she was circling the room without finding the place which was making it." "without finding" works here because this is a circumstantial sDm.n=f, it is like saying "not having found", "the case being that she did not find", or "while/when she did not find". jrr.w is an imperfective active participle modifying bw, so it is "the place which was habitually making". st is of course the object, and has to refer back to the sound. jm is problematic for the English but it is kind of a resumption of bw. English would not need to repeat "place" and then "there". > L7-8: #000#aHa.n rdi.n=s mAa=s r pA-XAr gmi.n=s iri=tw m-Xnw=f#000# > "Then she put her head to a sack [of grain] and she found it came > [lit. "it was made"; a .tw passive] from within it" m3` is "temple/cheek", the "side of the head". Very good, Mike. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== From: Aayko To: "AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk" Subject: AEL Q: i'H Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:44:10 +-100 Dear all, May I bother the list by asking how the word _i'H_ (="moon") would have sounded approximately? How does it sound in Coptic? Thanks! Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 23:21:33 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Moon Hi, Aayko, After writing that previous post, I got the thinking and realized that I was only considering the one Coptic dialect I have most recently been working in. I looked up j`H in Vycichl's _Dictinnaire etymologique de la langue copte_ and found some more information. In Sahidic it is {ooh} which would tend to make the vowel more like /a/ in earlier times. In fact, Vycichl offers a reconstruction of the word as *ya`Haw, and notes that in Akkadian we find warxu and arxu as well as Ethiopic warx and warex, and Aramaic yarHA (for month). Other Coptic dialects give different forms like: Bohairic {ioh} and Middle Egypt dialects give {Oh}, {eOh}, and even {iOh}. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 16:28:05 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P10, L6-8 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>>AEL Westcar P10, L6-8 Dear Geoff and other listmembers, L6: wn.in=s Hr dbn tA-a.t Geoff wrote: > "Then she was circling the room ... This is the better translation. I had: > "Then she moved around the room... - and had missed the ongoing action described by 'Hr dbn', lit. "upon circling/moving around". In the latter part of the sentence I had difficulty in working out the voice of the verbal adjective. I translated as: >the place where it came from [lit. "the place where one is making it"]. whereas Geoff had >the place which was making it." At least I got that it was a participle ;-) I just had semantic difficulty in trying to work out how a 'place' could do something, so I went for the passive. Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:55:15 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Q: i'H Hi, Aayko, > May I bother the list by asking how the word _i'H_ (="moon") > would have sounded approximately? How does it sound in Coptic? In Coptic it is {aah}. Doubling of vowels in Coptic indicates a glottal stop, in this case derived from `ayin. The accented vowel /a/ in Coptic can derive from earlier short accented /u/ or /i/. So this would probably have come from either *'u`H or *'i`H. On the other hand, it has often been pointed out that the radicals are very similar to the semitic word for "moon" the roots of which are yr`H, as in the Hebrew yarE`aH. Egyptian /j/ usually seems to give the glottal stop in Coptic, but sometimes in rare examples, such as {eiOt} from jt "father" it seems to give /y/ as well. If the initial phoneme was originally a /y/, we might reconstruct *yu`H or *yi`H. Still, we cannot know if the original word might not have contained more than one syllable originally, and the unaccented syllable have collapsed because of its proximity to a weakened /`/. Moreover, there is a marked tendency for vowels in close proximity to pharyngials like /`/ and /H/ to become /a/ even when their origins were of different qualities. So, reconstruction of this word is extremely difficult to pin down. Until we find examples of the word transcribed contemporaneously into Akkadian we might not really have much to go on. There are of course Classical Greek renderings of the name j`H-msj.w Ahmose as "Amasis" which would indicate that by the time of Greek contact with the Egyptians the transformations to this word which we see in Coptic had already taken place, roughly 5th - 2nd Centuries BC. Sorry I could not be of greater help here. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:21:49 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P9 L28 - P10 L5 Hi, Hans, Thanks for your clarifications. > So I think there are two possible solutions for this problem > A. Accept the existence of an indicative sDm.n=f > B. Accept the fact that a circumstantial verbform can precede a main > sentence. > > Please correct me if I am wrong. I could not possibly correct you because clearly you have a better understanding of the Egyptian verbal system's grammar than I do. :-) I do not feel qualified to say anything. I have learned to translate with a minimal understanding of all the theories behind the grammar. I do not tend to feel too stuck in any given theories because I have seen some texts which seem to bend all the rules which we have created for Egyptian grammar. A person such as James Hoch would probably have a much better idea of what is taking place here than I can muster. For now, I tend to trust your judgment of the situation better than any theories of my own. I have to say that it was with some resistence that I initially accepted the standard theory's pronouncements that indicatives were so very rare in Egyptian, and that most of the labeling of this or that form as "circumstantial" or "nominal/emphasizing" has been mostly a matter of making my professors happy rather than truly understanding all of the many nuances. What can I say? I find it very odd that any language would relegate its indicative into some rare category when in actuality it seems to me that indicative is the normal narrative form that most languages would utilize. It is also strange to me that circumstantials would have necessarily to come second in a sentence. I would imagine that languages should be versatile enough to include variations in word order simply for variety. Yet, it seems like the grammarians are always attempting to limit the places where this form or that form can occur. What, for instance was one to have done if he needed to make a subjunctive verb into a circumstantial clause? It would seem to me to be very necessary to have many of these categories able to fill many different slots and positions in sentences. Verbal moods should be able to serve in both main and dependent clauses, and tense and voice should be able to be applied too all of them as well. I simply am not enough of a grammarian to either justify or disprove some of the theorization that is taking place, and I guess I am more of a follower than a thinker in these matters. To me it is more important to just understand what the texts are attempting to say, and whether or not they seem to be following the rules we expect sometimes proves to be irrelevant to translation. Sorry I can't be more erudite and scholarly about it. Grammar has never been my main forte. However, I certainly welcome your insights, and I hope that I will be able to learn from you. Even after many many years of reading Egyptian texts, I find that people are teaching me new things about Egyptian grammar all the time. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== From: Neil Parker Subject: Re: AEL (Fwd) Two Games To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 01:48:30 -0800 (PST) Graham wrote, >"Ra-Harmachis" should be "Re-Harakhty". Hmm. I always thought these were the same thing--an Egyptologist's tranliteration and a Greek transliteration ra-Hrw-(m)-Ax.ty, sort of like Amenhotep/Amenophis. Have I been lead astray by over-reliance on Budge? On a slightly different subject, why is Ra-Harakhty, a god, given the epithet mAa-xrw, usually reserved for the dead? - Neil Parker, nparker@llx.com ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 10:54:10 GMT From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P9 L28 - P10 L5 Hello, Graham> Hi, Hans, Thanks for your clarifications : >> So I think there are two possible solutions for this problem >> A. Accept the existence of an indicative sDm.n=f B. Accept the >> fact that a circumstantial verbform can precede a main >> sentence. >> >> Please correct me if I am wrong. An alternative to 'A' is the continuative/sequential sDm.n=f, which is perhaps simply another value for the circumstantial sDm.n=f. I think Doret wrote on this. The explanation would be more or less this : sDm.n=f is a relative tense, -- that is, it marks an aspect (acomplished) rather than a tense. - when sDm.n=f means 'after he had heard', the reference point is the previous proposition. - on the other hand, when it means "and he heard", the reference point is the same as the reference point of the sentence. There is a clearer case with perfectives : iw=i stp=kwi after some initial proposition can mean either 'I having been chosed' 'after I was chosed' 'and I was chosed' the context deciding on the issue. Remember the passage "ia.in=sn sw Sad XbA=f rd Hr ifdy m Dbt" which, I think, display the two uses side by side. On the other hand, B. is also a possibility. I think there are a few cases of such constructions. regards, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) 66, rue Alexandre Dumas 75011 Paris tel 01 48 70 37 09 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://www.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 08:54:00 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P10, L6-8 Hi, Mike, > >the place where it came from [lit. "the place where one is making it"]. > whereas Geoff had > >the place which was making it." > At least I got that it was a participle ;-) I just had semantic difficulty > in trying to work out how a 'place' could do something, so I went for the > passive. Well, on more thought, the presence of jm makes me think that it probably means "the place from which it was being made", however, I wanted there to be an =f on the jrr for that. Maybe someone else will have a useful suggestion as to why this is behaving like a sDm=f relative but does not actually seem to be one of them. Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:18:30 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Harmakhis and Stories about Gods Hi, Neil, Good questions you have. They provide a format for interesting answers! ;-P > >"Ra-Harmachis" should be "Re-Harakhty". > > Hmm. I always thought these were the same thing--an Egyptologist's > tranliteration and a Greek transliteration ra-Hrw-(m)-Ax.ty, sort of like > Amenhotep/Amenophis. Have I been lead astray by over-reliance on Budge? In Greek Hrw-3x.t.y is Harakhthes, while Hrw-m-3x.t is Harmakhis. These two are very similar gods, or the same god in different natural phases. Harakhthes is "Horus of the horizon(s)", and this means the god as the sun who traverses the sky, passing from one horizon to the other. Harakhthes is a falcon headed man with a solar disk atop his head. Harmakhis is "Horus IN the horizon" and he is the sun after he has set and is passing through the underworld. Harmakhis is a sphinx with the nemes-headdress on his head, a horizon-being, part earth and part sun, like Aker, Ruruti, and Tatjenen. In fact, the nemes-headdress is the ticket to the next world as expressed by Chapter 78 of the Book of the dead where the lion-gate god of the next life must be convinced to give the nemes-headdress to the deceased so that he will be allowed to become a horizon dweller and pass to the kingdom of Osiris, ostensibly as his messenger, bringing news of the accession of Horus to the double throne of his father. Maybe you could say that Harakhthes is the day time sun and Harmakhis is the night time sun or something like that. In most cases Harakhthes is identified with Re. Harmakhis is more identified with the king in the next life, or at least the sun god when he is assimilated into the earth like Tatjenen and Atum, but they both do really revolve around the same solar being, the sun god in his various phases of daily life. > On a slightly different subject, why is Ra-Harakhty, a god, given the > epithet mAa-xrw, usually reserved for the dead? This is a very interesting point, and the answer lies in the subject of the story to which that passage was the opening sentence. The story recorded on the naos from Ismailiya tells about the reigns of Shu and Geb after Re has retired to the next world (i.e.; has in some sense "passed away"). Remember the tale of the Destruction of Mankind, where Re retires to heaven because of his disgust with humankind? Well, after the reign of Re, his divine children succeeded him on the throne. The naos tells about the reign of Shu and what he accomplished on earth, and then goes on to tell how he too retired to the next world and was succeeded by his son Geb, with some violent upheavals and tribulations for the world to say the least. And, of course, all of you are probably familiar with the tale of what happened when Osiris and then Seth and then Horus took the thone of the universe, for that is the Osiris passion story and the foundational myth for Egyptian kingship. If enough people are interested in this story, I have been transcribing it into neat hieroglyphs and might post it up on the web for translation and discussion. At this point we have several different texts waiting for us to deal with. There is the Hymn to the Aten from the tomb of Aye at Amarna; there is the fabulous autobiography of Weni the Elder which Mike Dyall-Smith has typeset and prepared for the list; there is an obelisk of Hatshepsut's from Karnak, transcribed by Al Behrens, and there are endless possibilities for us to read and learn from. The only problem is that internet translations seem to go very slowly and very few people seem to offer to translate on line. As for Papyrus Westcar, it has been going well enough and I hope that people are enjoying it and learning from it. Certainly, Mike and I have put a lot of work into making this project function. However, what normally could be accomplished in a matter of a few weeks in the usual university class environment has turned out to take many many months. It has been a learning experience for Mike, Mark, and me as well, for it has shown us the limitations of attempting to use this medium as a means of teaching and moving through texts as a large undefined group. What we need is for more participants to commit some time and offer translations and ask their questions. The experience is rewarding and everyone stands to learn. Be well. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:43:39 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P9 L28 - P10 L5 Hi, Serge, > An alternative to 'A' is the continuative/sequential sDm.n=f, which is > perhaps simply another value for the circumstantial sDm.n=f. I think > Doret wrote on this. The explanation would be more or less this : > > sDm.n=f is a relative tense, -- that is, it marks an aspect > (acomplished) rather than a tense. > > - when sDm.n=f means 'after he had heard', the reference point is > the previous proposition. > - on the other hand, when it means "and he heard", the reference point > is the same as the reference point of the sentence. Yes, I remember having discussed this in a class at some point, and how this type of sDm.n=f is much like the Late Egyptian "conjunctive". This is where my translation of "and she opened" came from, but I could not specifically remember the terminology by which one should refer to it. So, would you say that "continuative sDm.n=f" is the appropriate term? Do you know who has dubbed this form thusly? Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== From: Neil Parker Subject: Re: AEL Harmakhis and Stories about Gods To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 19:59:49 -0800 (PST) Thanks for the information about Harakhthes and Harmakhis. Henceforth I will be more careful about watching for the "m" in the name. Graham wrote, >The naos tells about the reign of Shu and what he accomplished on earth, >and then goes on to tell how he too retired to the next world and was >succeeded by his son Geb, with some violent upheavals and tribulations >for the world to say the least. And, of course, all of you are probably >familiar with the tale of what happened when Osiris and then Seth and then >Horus took the thone of the universe, for that is the Osiris passion story >and the foundational myth for Egyptian kingship. > >If enough people are interested in this story, I have been transcribing it >into neat hieroglyphs and might post it up on the web for translation and >discussion. I would definitely be interested in the story. I'm aware of the story of Ra's retirement and the story of Osiris, but this one is completely new to me. Yes, the AEL site seems to be accumulating texts much faster than the list is translating them. But I don't think that should stop anyone from posting interesting texts--even if we never get through all of them, their presence on the Web is a valuable resource. >It has been a learning experience for Mike, Mark, and me as well, for it >has shown us the limitations of attempting to use this medium as a means >of teaching and moving through texts as a large undefined group. What we >need is for more participants to commit some time and offer translations >and ask their questions. The experience is rewarding and everyone stands >to learn. Well...I've certainly found it enjoyable and educational so far. I'd dearly love to dive into the Wescar discussion, but so far I've been a little intimidated by the fact that everyone else involved seems to have a much better understanding of the Egyptian verb than me (my only acquaintance with the current model of the Egyptian verb comes from the "Grammar.hqx" Hypercard stack [a real mind-expander when I first found it!], and from what's been posted on this list). - Neil Parker, nparker@llx.com ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:23:51 +0100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Hans van Haarst Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P9 L28 - P10 L5 At 10:54 9-12-97 GMT, you wrote: > >Hello, > > Graham> Hi, Hans, Thanks for your clarifications : > > >> So I think there are two possible solutions for this problem > >> A. Accept the existence of an indicative sDm.n=f B. Accept the > >> fact that a circumstantial verbform can precede a main > >> sentence. > >> > >> Please correct me if I am wrong. > >An alternative to 'A' is the continuative/sequential sDm.n=f, which is >perhaps simply another value for the circumstantial sDm.n=f. I think >Doret wrote on this. Hello Serge, To my knowledge the continuative/circumstantial sDm.n=f is used in a subclause after a preceding particle+circumstantial sDm.n=f in the main sentence. A good example of this continuative use of the circumstantial sDm.n=f is Westcar P10 L8 : aHa.n rdi.n=s ... gm.n=s ... You can insert aHa.n before gm.n=s so that gm.n=s can be considered as a continuative circumstantial sDm.n=f. In the case of P10 L1 : SAs pw ir.n tA wbA.t wn.n=s tA a.t I can not see how you can insert an particle such as 'aHa.n' here. But I don't know which article by Doret you are referring to. In his 'Narrative Verbal System' on p.91 he gives only one example which is not very clear to me. An excellent article on the existence of the indicative sDm.n=f was written by Dr. L. Zonhoven. It appeared in the JEOL 33 (1995) p39-108. Best wishes, Hans van Haarst email-adres: hans@knor.demon.nl ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:07:21 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Translation Participation Hi, Neil, and hi to all would-be participants on AEL, I beg Mark's indulgence in letting me discuss list purposes in this public forum. Certainly, Mark should set list policy, and ultimately will, but I wanted to bring some ideas to the floor for discussion. > Well...I've certainly found it enjoyable and educational so far. I'd > dearly love to dive into the Wescar discussion, but so far I've been a > little intimidated by the fact that everyone else involved seems to have a > much better understanding of the Egyptian verb than me (my only > acquaintance with the current model of the Egyptian verb comes from the > "Grammar.hqx" Hypercard stack [a real mind-expander when I first found it!], > and from what's been posted on this list). I think that this is part of the problem we are experiencing here. Somewhere along the line the subliminal message has gotten out that no one ought to attempt translating unless they already know Egyptian grammar. This list was founded under the premise that its members did not ALREADY know Egyptian grammar and was designed to give such people a space in which to learn it. The only way to learn it is to try to work with it. There are people here at many different levels. Some of us can and do discuss Egyptian grammar from some background, and others do not have the tools or experience to be able to do so. Discussion of the grammar was supposed to help people who did not know it to understand how it works. The real audience of this list is the people who know very little about Egyptian grammar, and these are precisely the people who should be attempting the translations at whatever levels they are capable of managing. People who know the grammar can then offer some help and explain how the grammar works. No question is too basic for this list. Even if it is about how one gets from the glyphs to the transliteration, this is entirely relevant and useful. Even if you just want to absorb the basics of the writing system at this point, you can and should participate and ask the questions that come up for you. Mark, Mike, and I have spent some time discussing what we need to do to turn things around and make this seem like a safer place for amateurs and novices to participate and get something out of it. Possibly we need to discuss these issues publicly so that people who are interested in learning Egyptian grammar can express what they feel about translating here. First and foremost on the agenda, as far as I am concerned is to discover what we are doing wrong which is intimidating those who might learn from joining in discussion. Therefore, if there are any lurkers out there who are serious in their desire to learn some Egyptian in this format, please speak up and let us know what is daunting to you and how we might be able to make this an easier and more comfortable experience so that you will feel good about participation and not fear some ominous consequences if you are not perfect the first time around. There simply is nothing wrong with making mistakes in Egyptian.... even experts make mistakes all the time. Egyptian is a very difficult language to learn. We understand that and will not be denigrating and abusing people who do not understand it very well. The catch 22 situation is that if you do not stick out your neck and try a tranlation then your questions will not likely ever get answered. But if you offer a translation then maybe you will get corrected. Correction is not a bad thing, and it certainly is not intended to make you have a lower self esteem. Correction is the way that instruction can take place. Your esteem will only be able to advance if you have some instruction so that you begin to learn and become confident in your translations. I have watched students tranforming over the years and can tell you that they all start out with difficulties and mistaken impressions. I have even seen people learn Egyptian largely over the internet before. If you are a person who cannot afford to go to a university and study Egytian in formal classes, but really want to learn it, then this might really be the place for you to get the kind of education you desire. Any education involves work and it is not always easy. Just think of the rest of this list as your "classmates". You need not think of them as experts who are going to judge you and make fun of you for your lack of knowledge. the greatest thing about this list is that there is more than one person who can act as an instructor. How many universities have several faculty members at the students' disposal day and night? there are people here who teach Egyptian in well known institutions and they might just give you some of their time. It is like a free lunch, if you learn how to take advantage of it! Moreover, even other students can help you to learn. So, having opened up this issue to general discussion, let's hear from some of you. Maybe you have good suggestions as to what you personally need and what you would like to see happening here. Yours, Geoff Graham Yale University Graduate Program in Egyptology sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 16:43:33 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Westcar P9 L28 - P10 L5 Hans van Haarst 'ecrit : > Hello to all Westcarlovers, > P10 L2/L3 : > > aHa.n sDm.n=s xrw Hsi Sma xbt wAg irr.t nbt n nsw m tA at > > Then she heard the noise of singing, musicmaking, dancing and jubilation > ((in short) all the things usually done for a king) in the room. > > > I have some difficulty with the verbform wn.n=s in L1. According to the > theory of Polotsky it has to be a circumstantial or a nominal/emphatic > sDm.n=f form. > The emphatic sDm.n=f is not possible here because there is no adverbial > adjunct that could serve as the 'vedette'. > The circumstantial sDm.n=f can not act as an initial bare verbform, it has > to be preceded by an article such as iw. > > There remain two possibilities: > 1. Consider 'wn.n=s tA at' as a circumstantial subclause which precedes the > main sentence L2. > 2. Consider wn.n=s as a indicative sDm.n=f. I don't believe much in 2. I think indicative forms look like "sDm=f", not sDm.n=f ? Circumstantial sDm.n=f can have two values : the one you proposed, and a sequential one, to which Geoffrey has pointed. This gives two syntactical interpretations : a) Sas pw... wn.n=s tA at b) wn.n=s tA at [sDm.n=f "en protase". Rare, but attested] aHa.n sDm.n=s .... One thing that annoys me in this sentence is that sDm.n=f appears very little in this text, except for verbs like gmi and the like which are almost auxiliaries. I wonder, indeed, if this one is not an error for *wn.in=s tA at regards, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) 66, rue Alexandre Dumas 75011 Paris tel 01 48 70 37 09 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 07:09:29 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Initial vs Non-initial clau To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: Initial vs Non-initial clauses Regarding the current thread "Westcar P9 L28 -10" There is an interesting discussion about Initial vs Non-initial clauses in Ancient Egyptian (p162 onwards). I have asked Antonio for his interpretation on the specific line in question, and I give his response below. Regards, Mike D-S ------------------------------------- [Dr. A. Loprieno; 10/12/97, to MDS; RE>FWD>RE>AEL Westcar P9 L28 -] "I think that wn.n=s in the passage you cite is neither initial (since the initial form is SAs pw ir.n tA wbA.t "Then the maid went,") nor circumstantial, but simply a regular "continuative" form, i.e. a non-initial verbal form paratactically linked to the initial form: "(and) opened the room, (and) heard the sound..." --------------------------- ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 22:46:30 +0100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Hans van Haarst Subject: Re: AEL Translation Participation At 10:07 10-12-97 -0500, you wrote: >This list was founded under the premise that its members did not ALREADY >know Egyptian grammar and was designed to give such people a space in >which to learn it. The only way to learn it is to try to work with it. >There are people here at many different levels. Some of us can and do >discuss Egyptian grammar from some background, and others do not have the >tools or experience to be able to do so. Discussion of the grammar was >supposed to help people who did not know it to understand how it works. > >The real audience of this list is the people who know very little about >Egyptian grammar, and these are precisely the people who should be >attempting the translations at whatever levels they are capable of >managing. People who know the grammar can then offer some help and >explain how the grammar works. No question is too basic for this list. >Even if it is about how one gets from the glyphs to the transliteration, >this is entirely relevant and useful. Even if you just want to absorb the >basics of the writing system at this point, you can and should participate >and ask the questions that come up for you. > >Mark, Mike, and I have spent some time discussing what we need to do to >turn things around and make this seem like a safer place for amateurs and >novices to participate and get something out of it. Possibly we need to >discuss these issues publicly so that people who are interested in >learning Egyptian grammar can express what they feel about translating >here. > >First and foremost on the agenda, as far as I am concerned is to discover >what we are doing wrong which is intimidating those who might learn from >joining in discussion. Hi, Geoff To me it has to do with the fact that Westcar or Weni is to difficult a text to begin with, if you don't have a reasonable knowledge of grammar. At the University of Leiden it is read after you have done a course on Middle Egypian. But I think we can do two things to make it easier for somebody who has not yet so much knowledge of the M.E. grammar : 1. If we post a translation of a line from pWestcar or Weni we should include an extensive description of all the grammar involved ( perhaps with references to a standard grammar (Gardiner ?)) as we understand it. 2. Create the possibility to become acquainted with M.E. by presenting the first 45 pages of the Readingbook by de Buck or an equivalent from another more recent and up-to-date grammar. These 45 pages of de Buck contain exercises that deal with most of the M.E. grammar in an easy way for beginners, but do not include modern topics like the theory of Polotsky, cleft sentences etc. But maybe there is an equivalent in another grammar which includes these topics. What you really need are exercises that start very easy and become more and more difficult, which cover the whole grammar. But then you are really starting an online course on M.E. :-) I entirely back you up with regard to your endeavour to make it possible for everybody to become acquainted with and learn the Egyptian language. I would also very much like to help other people with problems related to the Egyptian grammar. Learning includes a lot of sweating on exercises, so I think that without them to start with it will be a hell of a job to get a working knowledge of the Egyptian Language. I have one last point related to this subject : I would like to stimulate all (future) writers of grammars to include exercises together with the transliteration, a commentary on the relevant grammar and last but not least the translation. Thanks in advance ;-) Best wishes, Hans van Haarst email-adres: hans@knor.demon.nl ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 17:36:56 -0500 From: Raven Brooke To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Translation Participation Hi Geoff, Thanks for a look at things from your perspective! As an extremely new participant of the list I can't say who else might be out there, but if you will allow me to accept your invitation to lurkers I will relate to you some recent experiences of mine that may shed some light on how elite your world can seem to us. Having recently completed (with some success, I might add ) the twenty year career of rearing a child, largely unaided, I found myself with another entire lifetime in front of me and no particular ideas as to what to do with it. I thought to pursue some new course which I might find both satisfying and enjoyable and so took thought of my love for the beautiful Egyptian language and my small efforts (about twelve chapters of Gardiner's grammar, unfortunately without feedback) to learn it.I decided that epigraphy would be a very fulfilling endeavor and well worth however much work was needed. When I queried the Egyptology department of a respected university the reply, in essence, stated: 1.The cost of such an education is beyond the means of any mere mortal. 2.The length of time involved in obtaining same is prohibitive to anyone over the age of twenty five. 3.There are far more graduates, in spite of the above, than jobs in the field. So you can see how some of us might be intimidated by those in your lofty position. That said, and in view of your own recent letter, I am now able to recognize that you are going to a great deal of trouble to help those who, like me, want very much to achieve the difficult task of learning to read the Egyptian language; and for no personal or professional gain to yourself. Bravo! And thank you very much. I will try to demonstrate my appreciation by participating in the translations to the best of my ability. Thanks again for your huge contribution to the wider appreciation of this uniquely beautiful language. Yours, Raven Graham wrote: > Hi, Neil, and hi to all would-be participants on AEL, > > I beg Mark's indulgence in letting me discuss list purposes in this public > forum. Certainly, Mark should set list policy, and ultimately will, but I > wanted to bring some ideas to the floor for discussion. > > > Well...I've certainly found it enjoyable and educational so far. I'd > > dearly love to dive into the Wescar discussion, but so far I've been a > > little intimidated by the fact that everyone else involved seems to have a > > much better understanding of the Egyptian verb than me (my only > > acquaintance with the current model of the Egyptian verb comes from the > > "Grammar.hqx" Hypercard stack [a real mind-expander when I first found it!], > > and from what's been posted on this list). > > I think that this is part of the problem we are experiencing here. > Somewhere along the line the subliminal message has gotten out that no one > ought to attempt translating unless they already know Egyptian grammar. > > This list was founded under the premise that its members did not ALREADY > know Egyptian grammar and was designed to give such people a space in > which to learn it. The only way to learn it is to try to work with it. > There are people here at many different levels. Some of us can and do > discuss Egyptian grammar from some background, and others do not have the > tools or experience to be able to do so. Discussion of the grammar was > supposed to help people who did not know it to understand how it works. > > The real audience of this list is the people who know very little about > Egyptian grammar, and these are precisely the people who should be > attempting the translations at whatever levels they are capable of > managing. People who know the grammar can then offer some help and > explain how the grammar works. No question is too basic for this list. > Even if it is about how one gets from the glyphs to the transliteration, > this is entirely relevant and useful. Even if you just want to absorb the > basics of the writing system at this point, you can and should participate > and ask the questions that come up for you. > > Mark, Mike, and I have spent some time discussing what we need to do to > turn things around and make this seem like a safer place for amateurs and > novices to participate and get something out of it. Possibly we need to > discuss these issues publicly so that people who are interested in > learning Egyptian grammar can express what they feel about translating > here. > > First and foremost on the agenda, as far as I am concerned is to discover > what we are doing wrong which is intimidating those who might learn from > joining in discussion. > > Therefore, if there are any lurkers out there who are serious in their > desire to learn some Egyptian in this format, please speak up and let us > know what is daunting to you and how we might be able to make this an > easier and more comfortable experience so that you will feel good about > participation and not fear some ominous consequences if you are not > perfect the first time around. > > There simply is nothing wrong with making mistakes in Egyptian.... even > experts make mistakes all the time. Egyptian is a very difficult language > to learn. We understand that and will not be denigrating and abusing > people who do not understand it very well. > > The catch 22 situation is that if you do not stick out your neck and try a > tranlation then your questions will not likely ever get answered. But if > you offer a translation then maybe you will get corrected. Correction is > not a bad thing, and it certainly is not intended to make you have a lower > self esteem. Correction is the way that instruction can take place. Your > esteem will only be able to advance if you have some instruction so that > you begin to learn and become confident in your translations. > > I have watched students tranforming over the years and can tell you that > they all start out with difficulties and mistaken impressions. I have > even seen people learn Egyptian largely over the internet before. If you > are a person who cannot afford to go to a university and study Egytian in > formal classes, but really want to learn it, then this might really be the > place for you to get the kind of education you desire. Any education > involves work and it is not always easy. Just think of the rest of this > list as your "classmates". You need not think of them as experts who are > going to judge you and make fun of you for your lack of knowledge. the > greatest thing about this list is that there is more than one person who > can act as an instructor. How many universities have several faculty > members at the students' disposal day and night? there are people here > who teach Egyptian in well known institutions and they might just give you > some of their time. It is like a free lunch, if you learn how to take > advantage of it! Moreover, even other students can help you to learn. > > So, having opened up this issue to general discussion, let's hear from > some of you. Maybe you have good suggestions as to what you personally > need and what you would like to see happening here. > > Yours, Geoff Graham > Yale University Graduate Program in Egyptology > sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== From: "Lynette" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Translation Participation Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 13:16:36 +1100 As another "lurker" (brings up an image of a shadowy figure slinking from column to column in some vast ancient temple!), let me also reply to Geoff's letter. In an email to Geoff a few days ago I mentioned how it is that I do not currently have access to the books (& therefore knowledge) needed to do the transliteration & translations. However, when I do I intend to jump in & have a go regardless of how little technical knowledge I have of the grammar. Until then I'll just watch you all from the shifting shadows! Yes, it can be intimidating when we see highly technical discussions going on about the subtleties of AE grammar, but I understand that this list caters to ALL levels of understanding. So, I skim over what I don't understand & hope to understand it at some point in the future! Perhaps what you could do is to send a version of Geoff's letter to all new recipients of the list as an explanation & encouragement? Lynette F. Watters Love is the Law. Love under will. lunetta@mountains.net.au ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:31:29 -0800 From: "Kasia & Malcolm Jarrett (www.humnet.ucla.edu/humnet/egyptology/Szpak/kasia.html)" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Translation Participation Hi Raven! Hmmm, as a lowly graduate student, let me speak to each of your issues: > 1.The cost of such an education is beyond the means of any mere mortal. That's why there are public universities in existance (some of which do offer egyptology), and fellowships available for both public & private universities. > 2.The length of time involved in obtaining same is prohibitive to anyone over the > age of twenty five. Hummmmph. I only know of a couple of fellow students who began graduate school UNDER the age of 25. > 3.There are far more graduates, in spite of the above, than jobs in the field. That is true in pretty much any academic endeavour, & should not prevent anyone from believing that they will be the one to get that job. There are also people who are not looking for work afterwards. If you want it bad enough, go for it!! Don't be intimidated! Have fun! ciao! --Kasia Raven Brooke wrote: > > Hi Geoff, > > Thanks for a look at things from your perspective! > > As an extremely new participant of the list I can't say who else might be out > there, but if you will allow me to accept your invitation to lurkers I will relate > to you some recent experiences of mine that may shed some light on how elite your > world can seem to us. > Having recently completed (with some success, I might add ) the twenty year career > of rearing a child, largely unaided, I found myself with another entire lifetime > in front of me and no particular ideas as to what to do with it. I thought to > pursue some new course which I might find both satisfying and enjoyable and so > took thought of my love for the beautiful Egyptian language and my small efforts > (about twelve chapters of Gardiner's grammar, unfortunately without feedback) to > learn it.I decided that epigraphy would be a very fulfilling endeavor and well > worth however much work was needed. > When I queried the Egyptology department of a respected university the reply, in > essence, stated: > > 1.The cost of such an education is beyond the means of any mere mortal. > > 2.The length of time involved in obtaining same is prohibitive to anyone over the > age of twenty five. > > 3.There are far more graduates, in spite of the above, than jobs in the field. > > So you can see how some of us might be intimidated by those in your lofty > position. > > That said, and in view of your own recent letter, I am now able to recognize that > you are going to a great deal of trouble to help those who, like me, want very > much to achieve the difficult task of learning to read the Egyptian language; and > for no personal or professional gain to yourself. > > Bravo! > And thank you very much. > > I will try to demonstrate my appreciation by participating in the translations to > the best of my ability. > > Thanks again for your huge contribution to the wider appreciation of this uniquely > beautiful language. > > Yours, Raven > > Graham wrote: > > > Hi, Neil, and hi to all would-be participants on AEL, > > > > I beg Mark's indulgence in letting me discuss list purposes in this public > > forum. Certainly, Mark should set list policy, and ultimately will, but I > > wanted to bring some ideas to the floor for discussion. > > ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 20:08:04 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Translation Participation Hans van Haarst wrote: > 2. Create the possibility to become acquainted with M.E. by presenting the > first 45 pages of the Readingbook by de Buck or an equivalent from another > more recent and up-to-date grammar. These 45 pages of de Buck contain > exercises that deal with most of the M.E. grammar in an easy way for > beginners, but do not include modern topics like the theory of Polotsky, > cleft sentences etc. But maybe there is an equivalent in another grammar > which includes these topics. What you really need are exercises that start > very easy and become more and more difficult, which cover the whole > grammar. But then you are really starting an online course on M.E. :-) An on-line course in Middle Egyptian (and Late Egyptian and Demotic and Sumerian and ....) is really what is needed! The theory of Polotsky may be somewhat abstruse, but we can make use of the results - James Hoch's grammar uses these results without beating the student over the head with the theoretical underpinnings (which many feel are a littlee shaky anyway). These results have certainly clarified things for me after trying to figure things out from Gardiner. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 02:56:42 +0000 From: atlixco To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Translation Participation Graham wrote: > Therefore, if there are any lurkers out there who are serious in their > desire to learn some Egyptian in this format, please speak up and let us > know what is daunting to you and how we might be able to make this an > easier and more comfortable experience so that you will feel good about > participation and not fear some ominous consequences if you are not > perfect the first time around. > Well thank you Graham for this opening. I first started learning Egyptian about 10 years ago, but quickly gave it up because the normal presentation of a language through it's grammar was a bit daunting to me. It is apparent to me that there are people on this list who have come to it for different reasons, while the list is dominated by a certain traditional approach, which is natural, but may be indeed daunting to some. Personally being an artist, Egyptian is seen by me the language par excellence where the contents of the mind of a civilisation are given pictorial expression. This gives some the idea that Egyptian is a language of symbolism, which is dashed by the phonetic element in it, which is presented to the mind as somewhat arbitrary, as no laws, apparently, yet have been discovered for a linkage with an organising view such as is seen to some extent in correspondances in the determinants to ideas. The fact is, and is very plain to an artist that there is a limit to visual expression of ideas in their use as a language as the visual image is mostly holistic and isn't very easily available as a tool, besides which auditory information is complementary to visual as it represents extension in time rather than the visual extension in space. What then strikes one as the present understanding of the egyptian language is one in which it is understood that it contains visual information that correlates exactly to phenomena in life but auditory information that has no relationship to real phenomena, which is assumed grew up from arbitrary & agreed grunts as the understanding that is widely implied in education for want of something better, as the genesis of language. This stands as an enormous anomaly against the primeval urge to organise society down to the meanest utensil & relate it to some unifying conception of life. There are precedents to the idea that the ancients had a well developed system of understanding of digital information exemplified by the close connection in Sumerian, and possibly in a degenerated degree in Hebrew. This was the relationship of number to music & indeed Gods, in the Sumerian civilisation, which exemplifies a highly digital nature even in it's script. It is thus surprising when these associated languages & their transmission to the Greeks by Pythagoras & Plato, who also leant heavily on the Egyptians, are recognised as having such a character, but no mention of this is related of egyptian. There is indeed a difficulty in that much of the phonetic quality of egyptian has been lost but the sumerian & greek may again provide a rosetta stone to testing such an hypothesis on the basis of number symbolism of other cultures. There is indeed a difficulty in that this number symbolism was given such a religious slant by these civilisations, and is taken to ridiculous extremes in some modern pseudo conceptions such as gematria. However there is an underlying sense in number symbolism that underlies such religious constructions. I write this to point out that there are alternatives to a single way of understanding & teaching a language that may be useful for different types of people, just as there are a number of conflicting not yet harmonised theories competing in the current drive for a unified theory in physics. Even in the English language there are laws in operation through it's history that are not even suspected by lexicographers particularly the homophonic law. I know that this might be a controversial post to some but it would be of benefit to extend egyptology to occupy by scientific means ground that is currently occupied by the extravagances of modern superstition. I am also writing as this is an interest of mine & though I had asked where I could get definitions of the 4000 or so signs that go beyond those in Gardner's sign list recieved no attention yours atlixco ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:44:25 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List , Raven Brooke Subject: Re: AEL Translation Participation Raven Brooke wrote: > Thanks for a look at things from your perspective! > > As an extremely new participant of the list I can't say who else might be out > there, but if you will allow me to accept your invitation to lurkers I will relate > to you some recent experiences of mine that may shed some light on how elite your > world can seem to us. > Having recently completed (with some success, I might add ) the twenty year career > of rearing a child, largely unaided, I found myself with another entire lifetime > in front of me and no particular ideas as to what to do with it. I thought to > pursue some new course which I might find both satisfying and enjoyable and so > took thought of my love for the beautiful Egyptian language and my small efforts > (about twelve chapters of Gardiner's grammar, unfortunately without feedback) to > learn it.I decided that epigraphy would be a very fulfilling endeavor and well > worth however much work was needed. > When I queried the Egyptology department of a respected university the reply, in > essence, stated: > > 1.The cost of such an education is beyond the means of any mere mortal. > > 2.The length of time involved in obtaining same is prohibitive to anyone over the > age of twenty five. > > 3.There are far more graduates, in spite of the above, than jobs in the field. > > So you can see how some of us might be intimidated by those in your lofty > position. > > That said, and in view of your own recent letter, I am now able to recognize that > you are going to a great deal of trouble to help those who, like me, want very > much to achieve the difficult task of learning to read the Egyptian language; and > for no personal or professional gain to yourself. > > Bravo! > And thank you very much. > > I will try to demonstrate my appreciation by participating in the translations to > the best of my ability. > > Thanks again for your huge contribution to the wider appreciation of this uniquely > beautiful language. Just to (hopefully) encourage you and others in this situation. I live in a rather out-of-the-way place, with no possibility of taking any sort of formal classes in Egyptian. I have been fascinated with the language since 1959, and have finally in the last three or four years had a LITTLE time and money to study it on my own. This would have been much more difficult to do had it not been for the internet, for mailing lists like this one, for Web sites, and for e-mail correspondents like Geoff Graham and James Hoch. So now I find I have unfortunately become one of those who intimidate newcomers (but only when I have time to participate fully)! I have felt for a couple of years now that the internet has a vast untapped potential for providing education on subjects which are not taught everywhere (Egyptian hieroglyphics, hieratic, demotic and Coptic seem to fall into that category). As those familiar with my Web site, the AEL Web site, etc. know, some of us are trying to do our little bit to turn this potential into actuality. And always remember: 1) The only dumb question is one you didn't ask so you never learned the answer! 2) NIL ILLEGITIMI CARBORUNDUM! -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 19:58:55 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Translation Participation Graham wrote: > > Hi, Neil, and hi to all would-be participants on AEL, > > I beg Mark's indulgence in letting me discuss list purposes in this public > forum. Certainly, Mark should set list policy, and ultimately will, but I > wanted to bring some ideas to the floor for discussion. I just wanted to second everything Geoff has said. This list was created (as those of us in at the beginning may remember) to assist beginners in learning the Egyptian language. It is also a wonderful forum for those of us a little beyond the beginner stage to discuss esoterica and thus try to advance our own knowledge. However, I don't think I know anyone on the list who isn't quite willing to spend whatever time and effort to help anyone at even the veriest beginning level (as well as to occasionally shoot down "experts" when they make errors - just to keep us all suitably humble!). One project I started, but haven't progressed very far with, is A Little Egyptian Reading Book. It was originally conceived as an attempt to answer the question "Is there an equivalent to _Dick and Jane_ for Egyptian?" (Yes I've received exactly that request, and others of a similar nature). I think the idea is that there needs to be something simple AND non-intimidating. So far there isn't really anything sufficiently developed to meet the need. I would encourage any "beginners" lurking out there who have creative ideas on this topic to let us know (on-list or privately) and even if they don't have the knowledge of Egyptian to implement it themselves, there is probably enough combined expertise here to make it work. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: "Kerry" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Translation Participation Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 02:43:16 -0800 -----Original Message----- From: Raven Brooke To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: Wednesday, December 10, 1997 4:01 PM Subject: Re: AEL Translation Participation Raven, As a lurker who finds herself in a position similar to yours, I just have to say that I've been running into the exact same type of responses that you mentioned. I'm having a very difficult time getting any information from universities. I've been told that I can expect 8-10 years of coursework for a PhD and to learn only the basics (in addition to the four it took to get my BA). I've also been told that I will most likely never find work in the field, and would never be able to pay off the enormous debt from so much schooling. But nowhere will anyone give me any encouragement or additional information. I have been given the distinct impression that prospective graduate students are not welcome in this field. This is why the information in this ML and on the Web is so important to me. I appreciate so much that the major contributors to this list are thinking of us beginners. I have to admit that most of the information on this list is still way above my ability, but at least the information is there! I can't think of any clever way to make this list more beginner-friendly. I will continue to study on my own, and hopefully the transliterations will become less daunting to me. I'm sure that when I reach this stage I'll throw aside my lurker status! Until that time, thank you. ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:18:18 -0600 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Christina Paul Subject: Re: AEL Translation Participation - A Proposal? At 02:56 AM 12/11/1997 +0000, you wrote: > > >Graham wrote: > >> Therefore, if there are any lurkers out there who are serious in their >> desire to learn some Egyptian in this format, please speak up and let us >> know what is daunting to you and how we might be able to make this an >> easier and more comfortable experience so that you will feel good about >> participation and not fear some ominous consequences if you are not >> perfect the first time around. Geoff: Suffice it to say that with the grammars etc. in a medium such as email the aspect of studying the Ancient Egyptian language is dauting. I often when looking at some of the mails on the list and feeling most intimidated and intellectually inadequate. One suggestion I would like to make, is to ask if there is a possiblity of having "classes" online via IRC (Internet Relay Chat). Marc Line, another AEL list member, and myself would meet online on a weekly basis with our Faulkner's Dicitionaries and a printout of the passage of th week and studied the Westcar papyrus through this meathod and it made it go much "easier" because there was real time feedback - much more like a classroom atmosphere than in email.Speaking only for myself, I find that if the appointment is made to sit down and focus on the task and the mind is set to meet at a mutually agreeable time, it makes the study of the language go smoother. This is not to undermine or to downplay the importance of this list, quite the contrary I value the list a valuable resource, but maybe just part of the puzzle. . I have saved EVERY post on this list becase I do value the study of the language and grasp on to every morsel I can get! With using all of the internet tools at our disposal we can, I believe, make the most of learning the Ancient Egyptian Language. I realize that schedules are hectic these days, particularly for someone such as yourself, Geoff, but Im wondering if there would be any interest in such a thing? It is just a suggestion, but perhaps we could set a time to meet on Undernet IRC where a channel could be set up. #AEL or #Hieroglyphica for example.... Just a thought, please let me know what you think. Sincerely, Christina http://www.netins.net/showcase/ankh/ ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:53:47 +0000 Subject: AEL (Fwd) Exercise I'd like to say a big thank you to Geoff for preparing this beginners' exercise for the list. Things really are moving quickly around here at the moment! An html version of what follows, which includes the hieroglyphs, is available from: http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/exercises/exercise1.html Mark Wilson. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 21:32:41 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Mark Wilson Subject: Exercise Hello, People are requesting basic exercises in Egyptian. I have created one as an experiment. This exercise which you can find at the AEL website introduces the personal suffix pronouns, the pseudo-verbal construction, dependent pronouns, gives some examples of the use of these features, some vocabulary, and then asks you to do some exercises. Let me put some of this information into ascii format for you here so you will know how to render your answers in e-mail format: Suffix Pronouns: =j "I, me, my" =k "you, your" masculine singular =T "you, your" feminine singular =f "he, him, his" (or "it" when the referent is m.) =s "she, her, hers" (or "it" when the referent is f.) =n "we, us, ours" =Tn "you, your" plural =sn "they, them, theirs" =tw "one, one's" Pseudo-Verbal Construction: This construction consists of a subject introduced on a kind of conjugation base jw which is basically untranslatable into English. Its only purpose is to provide a base upon which the suffix pronoun can adhere. This is followed by a preposition and the infinitive of a verb. Prepositions which can be used in this construction are Hr "upon", r "at/to/toward", and m "in". The usage of each prepostion depends on different factors, but this will be introduced later. For now, just learn the paradigms which are presented. Paradigm I: jw=j Hr mrj.t "I am loving", "I was loving", or "I love". jw=k Hr mrj.t "you (m., sing.) are loving" jw=T Hr mrj.t "you (f., sing.) are loving" jw=f Hr mrj.t "he is loving" jw=s Hr mrj.t "she is loving" jw=n Hr mrj.t "we are loving" jw=Tn Hr mrj.t "you (pl.) are loving" jw=sn Hr mrj.t "they are loving" Paradigm II: (using the r of futurity) jw=j r mrj.t "I will be loving" jw=k r mrj.t "you (m., sing.) will be loving" jw=T r mrj.t "you (f., sing.) will be loving" jw=f r mrj.t "he will be loving" jw=s r mrj.t "she will be loving" jw=n r mrj.t "we will be loving" jw=Tn r mrj.t "you (pl.) will be loving" jw=sn r mrj.t "they will be loving" Dependent Pronouns: These are a different kind of pronoun from the suffix pronouns and they can stand alone. They serve various different functions, one of which is as subjects of pseudo-verbal constructions, but they must also be introduced by certain words. We will have a particle what introduces them in a moment. For now just learn the paradigm. wj "I, me" Tw "you" (m., sing.) Tn "you" (f., sing.) sw "he, him" (or "it" when the referent is m.) sy "she, her" (or "it" when the referent is f.) st "it" (inanimate objects which are not defined as m. or f.) n "we, us" Tn "you" (pl.) sn "they, them" (mostly animate beings) st "they, them" (mostly inanimate objects or animals) Non-enclitic Particle: This particle introduces the dependent pronouns as subjects of sentences. mk "look/behold/hey" (it need not be very strong and does not always have to be translated at all.) Examples: Notice that the subject of these sentences is a dependent pronoun introduced by mk, and that the object of these sentences is a suffix pronoun affixed to the infinitive of the verb. mk wj Hr mrj.t=k "Look, I love you" or "hey, I am loving you" mk Tw Hr mrj.t=s "Look, you (m.) love her." mk Tn Hr mrj.t=f "Look, you (f.) love him." mk sw Hr mrj.t=Tn "Look, he loves you (pl.)" mk sy Hr mrj.t=j "Look, she loves me." mk n Hr mrj.t=sn "Look, we love them." mk Tn Hr mrj.t=n "Look, you (pl.) love us." mk sn Hr mrj.t=s* "Look, they love it/her." *I just noticed that I wrote st in stead of =s, which is perfectly good Late Egyptian, but not really Middle Egyptian. So, treat it as =s. Vocabulary: Here are five more verbs in their infinitives for you to use in the exercises. sDm "hear" jnj.t "bring" m33 "see" s-nm "feed" jTj.t "take" The exercises are out there on the web. The first one is from Egyptian to English. Transliterate them and then translate them. The second one is from English into Egyptian. Simply transliterate them. I realize that you will not be able to send them in hieroglyphs to the list. Then, after this, see how many other sentences you can make out of the given vocabulary and paradigms. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:14:37 +0000 Subject: AEL Westcar L24-L25 Hans wrote: > L24 : aHa.n Dd.n tA wbA.t nfr pw smnx aA > Then the maidservant said : " Good is it to clean up here, " > > L25 : wpw-Hr pA it ( L26) n nn xny.t iw=f m a.t Hr(yt) xtm=sn > " except the barley of these dancers, which is in the room with > their locks on it " > > A strange answer of the maid. You could also consider nfr pw to be the > seldom used negative expression : It is not (Gardiner p. 265 ), then > the translation could be : " It is not ( possible ) to clean up here, > ..." Both answers i don't understand so maybe there is a sentence > missing; nfr pw begins at a new line. When the maid says "nfr pw smnx aA", is there any reason why it can't be of the form infinitive-pw-relative, so the meaning would be something like "good is what the cleaning up here is...". I admit it sounds a bit strange, but perhaps the maid is not too proficient with the finer points of Egyptian Grammar? Comments anyone? Regards, Mark. -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/index.html ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 17:34:28 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Questions on the Floor Hello, I want to thank all of you who have been responding to me privately and on list with your suggestions. I hope to hear from more of you too. I don't want to close the floor by acknowledging the posts which have come through so far, as if the final word or any verdicts have been spoken. I have seen some really good ideas, and I am sure that more good ideas will continue to come. One thing that rings true among many of you is that there are not enough exercises to drill with. For this reason, I am thinking of forgoing the "games" for a more instructional approach and introducing exercises and vocabulary every week. In fact, I have sent an experimental one to Mark Wilson already and am told that it will be on-line shortly. I already have a few ideas on how I can build on the contents of this exercise in the following ones. However, the idea of trying to teach the entire language in this fashion seems enormously daunting to me when I stop and think about it. Soon after this list was founded, I attempted to do something similar but people became frustrated with the artificial quality of the texts, because the sentences I was creating were not original texts and therefore there was the possibility that I was expressing some things in a way that a real Egyptian might not actually have employed. It is difficult to write grammatical narrative with very limited ranges of grammatical forms one building upon the other. Therefore, I abandoned that project. We basically decided at that point that the only way to learn to read real Egyptian was to tackle real Egyptian texts. Unfortunately, there are none which are basic enough for beginning students. You cannot count on any text to avoid complicated constructions... Egyptians simply knew their language already so they did not write texts like "Dick and Jane". The texts I was writing were very much like what Stephen Fryer might call the "Dick and Jane approach". I was writing a story about an Egyptian kid and his adventures, somewhat off the cuff. The main problem experienced was that I had to limit myself to the grammatical information which had been presented at any give time, so that the text was very artificial, and probably was unrealistic as compared with what one might actually read in the hieroglyphic language. I submitted some of these exercises to a grammar expert but he was unable to comment on them due to lack of time. On the other hand, if I continued building such texts, and presented them with the caveat that they might not yet be exactly correct, then maybe we could discuss them on the list and find ways of perfecting them as a group. The varied backgrounds of some of the participants might help in the process. I guess the only way to make it practicable is to just take it one point at a time. I also wonder whether through more collaboration with other scholars, we might not build something that will do the job. I am not certain that I can manage to treat the entire language on my own. What if, for instance, a few "experts" and advanced students came together and we parceled out some aspects of the language, so that different people could create exercises on different subjects in the Egyptian language and grammar, and hopefully, between more of us, we might have a reasonable shot at covering the basics and more? The exercise I created yesterday, and I do not know if it is a very good one or not, introduces, suffix pronouns, dependent pronouns, the particle mk, and the pseudo-verbal costruction. The one I am thinking of as follow-up will introduce masculine and feminine nouns as well as adjectives and probably continue to build sentences using the pseudo-verbal construction. I want to hold off about introducing the sDm=f forms for now, since they are really the most difficult part of the grammar. I also think that Christina's idea about meetings on irc is a good one. I attempted to coordinate some sessions like that once in the past and found that I was the only person who ever logged on. So I gave up on it. However, that was among a limited group of people and it was never announced in such a broad forum as this one. The crucial thing to consider if we were to undertake such meetings would be to make sure that all people had ample access to whatever the meeting would discuss or translate far enough in advance. The other aspect of this, which needs to be considered is that some transcript might need to be saved, in case any valuable information was covered, and so that non-participants could see what took place. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:31:09 -0600 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Christina Paul Subject: Re: AEL Questions on the Floor At 05:34 PM 12/11/1997 -0500, you wrote: > >I also think that Christina's idea about meetings on irc is a good one. I >attempted to coordinate some sessions like that once in the past and found >that I was the only person who ever logged on. So I gave up on it. >However, that was among a limited group of people and it was never >announced in such a broad forum as this one. The crucial thing to >consider if we were to undertake such meetings would be to make sure that >all people had ample access to whatever the meeting would discuss or >translate far enough in advance. The other aspect of this, which needs to >be considered is that some transcript might need to be saved, in case any >valuable information was covered, and so that non-participants could see >what took place. Thank you for that, Geoff. I found it worked very well between Mark Line and myself. Im sorry I didnt know about the sessions you mentioned above. I would have certainly liked to have participated in that and would have kept the date! ;) As for transcripts - I think that in programs such as mIRC, there is an option you can check for logging channels, messages etc. It is much easier than even AOL's logging ability for example, and therefore it would be automatic each time you as a user signed on to IRC. Logs could be posted to the website for downloading as well should anyone who did not make the chat care to download it. Another thought. Thanks again for another great post! :) Christina http:www.netins.net/showcase/ankh/ ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:22:09 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Exercise 1 Comment > Paradigm I: > jw=j Hr mrj.t "I am loving", "I was loving", or "I love". > jw=k Hr mrj.t "you (m., sing.) are loving" > jw=T Hr mrj.t "you (f., sing.) are loving" > jw=f Hr mrj.t "he is loving" > jw=s Hr mrj.t "she is loving" > jw=n Hr mrj.t "we are loving" > jw=Tn Hr mrj.t "you (pl.) are loving" > jw=sn Hr mrj.t "they are loving" > > Paradigm II: (using the r of futurity) > jw=j r mrj.t "I will be loving" > jw=k r mrj.t "you (m., sing.) will be loving" > jw=T r mrj.t "you (f., sing.) will be loving" > jw=f r mrj.t "he will be loving" > jw=s r mrj.t "she will be loving" > jw=n r mrj.t "we will be loving" > jw=Tn r mrj.t "you (pl.) will be loving" > jw=sn r mrj.t "they will be loving" A slight criticism - your paradigms are based on a III-inf. verb (that is a verb whose third and last consonant is weak, i.e. j or w). These behave a little differently from a "strong" verb. "Weak" verbs add a "t" at the end of the infinitive for reasons unknown - although the same thing happens in Hebrew with similar types of verbs; "strong" verbs do not add the "t." Using a strong verb (sDm, "hear" is one commonly used, and is part of the vocabulary of this exercise) the paradigms become: Paradigm I: jw=j Hr sDm "I am hearing", "I was hearing", or "I hear". jw=k Hr sDm "you (m., sing.) are hearing" jw=T Hr sDm "you (f., sing.) are hearing" jw=f Hr sDm "he is hearing" jw=s Hr sDm "she is hearing" jw=n Hr sDm "we are hearing" jw=Tn Hr sDm "you (pl.) are hearing" jw=sn Hr sDm "they are hearing" Paradigm II: (using the r of futurity) jw=j r sDm "I will be hearing" or "I will hear" jw=k r sDm "you (m., sing.) will hear" jw=T r sDm "you (f., sing.) will hear" jw=f r sDm "he will hear" jw=s r sDm "she will hear" jw=n r sDm "we will hear" jw=Tn r sDm "you (pl.) will hear" jw=sn r sDm "they will be hear" The second paradigm was generally used for simple future tense ("I will hear," "I will love") as well as things like "I am going to love," "I am about to hear," etc. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 20:14:03 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar L24-L25 Hi, all, OK, let me try this out, but I agree, it is a bit strange. `H`.n Dd.n t3-wb3.y.t Then the maid-servant said; nfr(.w) pw s-mnx** `3 "it is a lack* of efficiencies here *taking nfr as a short writing of nfr.w (p. 132, entry 15, of Faulkner's CDME), meaning "defficiency" **taking s-mnx as "the where-with-all which one needs in order to s-mnx", s-mnx being "make efficient". Maybe it is just the infinitive too at any rate, and I think it could be used this way. Comments? (Can one ever take a pw sentence as expressing "there is"? I am still kind of uncomfortable about this, but I feel it must be saying something negative, because of the adversative effect of wpw-Hr which is coming in the next bit.) wpw-Hr p3-jt n.y nn xnj.y.w.t except for the grain of those songstresses, jw=f m `.t Hr(.y.t) xtm=sn but it is in a room [upon which]* their seal is. *taking, what I think was Hans' suggestion that this should be a nisba on Hr, and that it should properly agree with `.t, which by Late Egyptian had become masculine anyway, so this is not totally unexpected. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 22:33:11 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Questions on the Floor Graham wrote: > I also think that Christina's idea about meetings on irc is a good one. I > attempted to coordinate some sessions like that once in the past and found > that I was the only person who ever logged on. So I gave up on it. > However, that was among a limited group of people and it was never > announced in such a broad forum as this one. The crucial thing to > consider if we were to undertake such meetings would be to make sure that > all people had ample access to whatever the meeting would discuss or > translate far enough in advance. The other aspect of this, which needs to > be considered is that some transcript might need to be saved, in case any > valuable information was covered, and so that non-participants could see > what took place. There are some other practical things to take note of when trying to set up such a conference: 1) Which chat network (undernet, dalnet, etc.) and which server should people log in to? While it might seem obvious that the network might be important to know, we discovered in the process of conducting the Jamboree on the Internet for for our Scouts, that which server also affected what messages you got to see. 2) We are scattered across the entire globe, and even taking only Europe and the Americas into acount, that covers about 11 time zones. How are we going to set times so that most people can participate. 3) The times and days should be constant so that we can all remember when to log in. 4) There are some of us who avoid chat because it uses up a lot of online time for which we have to pay. I do think it would be a good idea to try though. Unfortunately, when Geoff originally proposed it, I was busy at the time, and I wasn't sure whether this was a regular event or just a special trial run. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: "R Lloyd" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Translation Participation Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 04:40:02 PST As a lurker, I must say this sight has been very educational and fun for me. I have not been able to contribute as I should. I am sure many lurkers of this group agree that, the arguments brought up between the educated of this discussion are points that come up in our minds, at least when they are pointed out to us. It is fascinating to see that,although the educated here learned hieroglyphic translation from the same texts, since there are limited texts available, the diversity of opinions present in this discussion. That IS the valuable learning experience here. As for participation, I will try to be more active. Richard Lloyd rilloyd@hotmail.com >The real audience of this list is the people who know very >little about Egyptian grammar, and these are precisely the >people who should be attempting the translations at whatever >levels they are capable of managing. People who know the >grammar can then offer some help and explain how the grammar >works. No question is too basic for this list. Even if it is >about how one gets from the glyphs to the transliteration, >this is entirely relevant and useful. Even if you just want >to absorb the basics of the writing system at this point, you >can and should participate and ask the questions that come up >for you. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:10:05 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Exercise 1 Comment Hi, Stephen, > A slight criticism - your paradigms are based on a III-inf. verb (that is a verb > whose third and last consonant is weak, i.e. j or w). These behave a little > differently from a "strong" verb. "Weak" verbs add a "t" at the end of the > infinitive for reasons unknown - although the same thing happens in Hebrew with > similar types of verbs; "strong" verbs do not add the "t." Stephen, you have missed the point of this selection. I desire, through using a Third Weak verb for the example, to help the student to learn what form the verb is taking in the construction. If the student memorized jw=f Hr sDm, they would not have an imediate recollection that sDm was an infinitive in this position. Because third weak verbs produce a final /t/ in their infinitives, the student will be absolutely certain, having memorized the paradigm jw=f Hr mrj.t, that the pseudo-verbal construction consists of subject, preposition, infinitive. sDm could be a participle, a sDm=f, a negatival complement, or any number of other things besides an infinitive. Sometimes it is better to memorize less regular verbs as the paradigms so that you can remember more information at one time instead of having to learn yet more facts at some later point in time. > The second paradigm was generally used for simple future tense ("I will hear," > "I will love") as well as things like "I am going to love," "I am about to > hear," etc. Indeed, this is true. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:01:14 -0500 From: "Oscar H. Blayton" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Questions on the Floor Dear List, Being an aspiring student of AEL who lurks, but enjoys the list greatly, I have remained quiet for the most part, saving the mail and hoping to review and begin to participate more, as I learn. But with regards to utilizing a chat format, perhaps I can add something of worth at this point. My comments in response to the exchange are as follows: =============================================== Stephen Fryer wrote: > > > There are some other practical things to take note of when trying to set up such > a conference: > 1) Which chat network (undernet, dalnet, etc.) and which server should people > log in to? While it might seem obvious that the network might be important to > know, we discovered in the process of conducting the Jamboree on the Internet > for for our Scouts, that which server also affected what messages you got to > see. ================================================================== There are a number of free vehicles by which chat could be conducted, including, IRC and WBS (which allows the posting of graphics along with text, and might have andvantage for posting hieroglyphics and graphics of temple walls, etc.). The issue of keeping out unwanted and disruptive chatters could be accomplished with most of these chat systems by utilizing a password as the name of the chat room. In this way, the name of the room will not be know to anyone who has not received it from the list or a list member. IRC and WBS also have monitors available to receive complaints about disruptive individuals, and they have the means to boot that user off of the system. Most of them also provide a means for saving the transcripts. And as I indicated earlier, I am only refering to FREE systems. Another good system is Microsoft "Netmeeting" which can be accessed through ICQ [both FREE]. Net meeting allows the chatters to draw on a "whitepaper" screen simultaneously. In this way an instructor could draw a glyph for the students, or correct the glyph that is drawn by the student. (And this is all in real time.) This also allows for saving transcripts and drawings and graphics. And regarding security, no one can join the chat group unless allowed to do so by the user who opens (and thereby) controls the chat room. =============================================================================== > 2) We are scattered across the entire globe, and even taking only Europe and the > Americas into acount, that covers about 11 time zones. How are we going to set > times so that most people can participate. > 3) The times and days should be constant so that we can all remember when to log > in. > 4) There are some of us who avoid chat because it uses up a lot of online time > for which we have to pay. =================================================== If scheduling is a major problem, there are a number of sites that provide FREE Bulletin Boards. [For example, the San Francisco Chronicle Newspaper hosts one such free site.] The messages will show up as soon as posted, and remain up indefinately. This way, you have the option of communicating real time, or reading previous exchanges. The security is these formats are not as advanced however; and usually once a user is let into a Bulletin Board System, they may visit any room they desire. If on line time is costly, with a bulletin board system, one can log on, file save the latest postings, log off and read them at their or pace. Also, if one of the chat formats is used, the chat transcript can be saved and posted to the bulletin board. ================================================================== > > I do think it would be a good idea to try though. Unfortunately, when Geoff > originally proposed it, I was busy at the time, and I wasn't sure whether this > was a regular event or just a special trial run. > > -- > Stephen Fryer > Lund Computer Services ================================================ I do have one caveat, however, being a PC user, I do not know how any of these will work with Apple Computers. With Regards, Oscar H. Blayton ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:25:20 -0700 From: Al & Barbara Berens To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL On Line Course in Heiroglyphs The Oriental Institute offers an online course in Middle Egyptian. I believe it may have already started however. Check out their email for more information: adult_ed@mephis-orinst.uchicago.edu Al Berens ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 15:49:12 +0100 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Hans van Haarst Subject: AEL Westcar P10 L9-L12 Hello to all Westcarlovers, In this posting I will try to clarify the grammar as much as possible. This was my suggestion in the reaction to the AEL translation participation posting by Geoff. Extensive coverage of the grammar is good for others as well as for yourself, because when you write things down they often become much clearer to yourself. L9 : aHa.n rdi.n=s r pds Then she put in the box, L9 begins with the particle 'aHa.n'. This is originally a nominal sDm.n=f form of the verb 'aHa' ('to stand up'), which in later narrative texts like this Westcarstory petrified to a particle ('then'), that introduces a new sentence. Literally you could translate it as : 'stood up and'. (Gardiner p.392) Next there is a real verbform : the circumstantial sDm.n=f form of the verb 'rdi' which means 'to put'. The combination aHa.n+sDm.n=f is a typical means in narrative texts to express the past tense. In general verbforms with the morpheme .n determine a past tense. There are two sDm.n=f forms 1. The nominal/emphatic sDm.n=f 2. The circumstantial sDm.n=f You will not find no.1 in Gardiner because it belongs to a more recent theory of the Egyptian verb : the theory of Polotsky. This no.2 verbform is mainly used in subclauses which state the cirumstances under which the verbal act of the main clause is taking place, hence it's name circumstantial sDm.n=f. =s : suffixpronoun 3 s.f., 'she' (the subject of the sentence) The normal sequence of a Middle Egyptian sentence is Verb-Subject-Object (VSO). So after the verb+subject 'rdi.n=s' you would expect an object. In the original hieratic manuscript ( hieratic is a writing form of the Egyptian language which the scribes used when they wrote on papyrus ) the next two words 'r pds' start at a new line, so I think that the scribe forgot the object 'sw' ( the dependent pronoun 3 s. m.). The object has to be 'sw' because it refers to 'XAr' which is masculin. The last frase is 'r pds' which consists of a preposition 'r' and a noun 'pds'. For 'on' normally 'Hr' or 'tp' is used but here the combination 'rdi r' is used like in 'rdi r tA' ( 'put on the ground' ). L 9 : rdi.(w) m-Xnw ky xtm L10 : istn.w m dHr that was placed inside the other case, that was ( could be ) binded by leather straps. These two lines are both adjectival phrases to the noun 'pds'. In L10 the morpheme 'w' is written which is an indication that the verbform 'istn.w' is a passive participle. Furthermore the verbform 'rdi(.w)' is an indication that we are dealing with a perfective passive participle. The imperfective participle has 'didi'. The conclusion is that 'rdi(.w)' and 'istn.w' are both perfective passive participles. There are a few different participles : 1. the imperfective participle ( both active and passive ) 2. the perfective participle ( also both active and passive ) 3. the prospective participle ( only passive ) 4. the sDm.ty.fy participle ( only active ) Participles 1. and 2. are in Gardiner : p. 272. Participle 3. you can find in a more recent grammar. Participle 4. is also in Gardiner : p. 280. Two prepositions are used 'm-Xnw' ( a compound preposition meaning 'inside' ) and 'm' ( 'in' ). I inserted ( could be ) because you could argue that 'istn.w' is an prospective passive participle, a participle that expresesses a future or modal tense ( 'will', 'might', 'could ', etc.) L10 : rdi.n=s st r a.t wnn.t Xr Hnw=s and she put it in the room that contained her belongings. Here again the circumstantial sDm.n=f is used and in this case as continuation of the previous sentence, which is expressed by the English conjunction 'and'. 'st' is the object of the sentence 'it'. 'wnn.t' is a particle meaning 'indeed', but as many of these enclitic ( enclosed between other words ) particles, one can leave them untranslated. The preposition 'Xr' means 'under' , but is also an Egyptian way to express possession. That is all for now. This posting is rather long, but I hope that it will clarify the grammar a little bit. Of course this is how I understand it, so any criticism is very welcome indeed to fill in any 'holes' in my knowledge. Best wishes, Hans van Haarst email-adres: hans@knor.demon.nl ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 21:14:44 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Exercise 1 Comment Graham wrote: > Stephen, you have missed the point of this selection. I desire, through > using a Third Weak verb for the example, to help the student to learn what > form the verb is taking in the construction. If the student memorized > jw=f Hr sDm, they would not have an imediate recollection that sDm was an > infinitive in this position. Because third weak verbs produce a final > /t/ in their infinitives, the student will be absolutely certain, having > memorized the paradigm jw=f Hr mrj.t, that the pseudo-verbal construction > consists of subject, preposition, infinitive. sDm could be a participle, > a sDm=f, a negatival complement, or any number of other things besides an > infinitive. Sometimes it is better to memorize less regular verbs as the > paradigms so that you can remember more information at one time instead of > having to learn yet more facts at some later point in time. This is quite true, however I didn't feel it was quite clear, and that there was a possibility that it might have led to people seeing Hr mr.t and attempting to do the same with sDm namely Hr sDm.t. I suppose it comes from designing and writing computer programs - I always look for all conceivable (and some inconceivable) ways in which people can misuse or misunderstand them, and try to write in such a way that these possibilities are eliminated. This usually means I give it to my wife - also a programmer - and say "Here, see if you can manage to mess this up." If she can do it deliberately, I assume that someone else will be abel to do it by accident. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 09:39:38 +0100 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Hans van Haarst Subject: AEL Lurkers wanted Hello to all lurkers at the threshold (thank you H.P. Lovecraft), As a follow-up to my posting on the Westcarpapyrus of yesterday (saturday dec. 13) I would like to invite all lurkers to react to the following questions : 1. Was this clarification extensive enough ? 2. Was it too extensive ? 3. Are there other points that you would like to be explained ? 4. Is this the right formula for you ? Questions like 'What is the Manuel de Codage' , 'What is meant by transliteration' or 'How do you pronounce sDm ?' are sensible questions, so don't hesitate to ask all you want. It took me also a lot of time to figure all these things out. Especially those of you who are studying the Egyptian language on their own ( like I am doing for years now ) I would like to encourage to react. If you have little or no feedback on a regular basis from an Egyptology teacher this AEL group can help you a lot. After all the goal of this group is to stimulate the study of the Egyptian Language at every level. The more people join the discussion on the Westcarpapyrus the better. Best wishes, Hans van Haarst email-adres: hans@knor.demon.nl ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 20:38:03 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Difficult Game Decoded OK, apparently no one felt they could do anything with the difficult game. So, I might as well tell you what I was thinking when I prepared it. I. 1. Xnw, residence/interior 2. dnj.t, cry out/scream 3. jt.w, fathers 4. s-St3, secret/mysterious/difficult 5. kf3-jb, trust-worthy 6. pH.w, marshlands/bottom-lands 7. Dnb.wy, the two furthest reaches of the universe/the heavens 8. sw3j, pass by/surpass/transgress 9. snT, devise/plan/think 10. Oops, I forgot to make a number ten! 11. jt-nTr, God's-Father (priestly title) 12. sT3, drag 13. nm.t.w.t, steps/paces 14. Xr.y.t-hrw, daytime/daylight/daily 15. sw.w, day (in dating formulas) 16. jm.y-r3-pr, steward 17. jt.y, sovereign/ruler 18. Htm, furnish/provide 19. Xr.y-Hb, lector-priest 20. Hnmm.t, humankind 21. wt, bandage 22. xw.w, in Hr-xw.w, except 23. dy, there/here 24. jmn, Amun 25. wr.t-Hk3.w Werethekau 26. ns.w.t, thrones 27. wnm, eat 28. sm3, stolist-priest 29. bzj, introduce/initiate 30. pds, box 31. pXr, circulate 32. prj.t, seed 33. bj3, iron/wonder 34. wsx.t, broad-court 35. tjt, image 36. D3t.t, estate II. 1. b 2. ` 3. n 4. k 5. n.y-sw.t-bj.t, King of Upper and Lower Egypt 6. r 7. p 8. m 9. f 10. wr 11. s 12. n 13. f 14. m33, see 15. mw.t, mother 16. prj, go out/emanate 17. nfr, good 18. s 19. t3, land 20. rmT, person 21. t3.wy, Two lands 22. mkj, protect 23. z3w, protection 24. j 25. m 26. H 27. jrj, make/do 28. rdj, give III jsT* r.f wn** Hm n.y Sw m n.y-sw.t nfr n.y p.t t3 dw3.t mw Indeed, the Majesty of Shu was the excellent king of heaven, earth, the netherworld, the waters, *{jst} **{wnn} nf.w.t* nnw Dw.w w3D-wr the winds, the abysse, the mountains, and the sea, *{nftyw} jrj(.w) tp.w-rd nb(.w) Hr ns.t n.y.t* jt=f r`-Hrw-3x.t.y m m3`-xrw making all decisions upon the throne of his father, Re-Harakhthes, (who) was a justified-being (i.e. in the next world/deceased). *{nty} js r.f wn.jn Hm n.y Sw m Xnw*=f n.y //// //// Indeed, the Majesty of Shu was in his Residence of ... *{Xnwt} I am sorry that this one was too daunting for anyone to attempt. Have fun. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ==============================================================================