Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 09:04:39 +0100 From: Pierrick Brihaye To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Re: Unicode and hieroglyphs Hi, Alan Woodcock a écrit : > Well, you are quite right to take this off the AEL list, it really is for > experts only. :-) Would you mind subscribing to the list and repost your answer ? This kind of discussion would be an *excellent* start for it. Futhermore, I agree with most of your considerations. > (Hey, when will we have hieroglyphic OCR?) I have some ideas about this :-) See you there ! -- Pierrick Brihaye, informaticien Service régional de l'Inventaire DRAC Bretagne mailto:pierrick.brihaye@culture.gouv.fr +33 (0)2 99 29 67 78 ============================================================================== From: "Alan Woodcock" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Merneptah Stela Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 14:20:49 +0100 Serge wrote > > iTAw 0 nAy=f Hm.t r-xf.t-Hr=f > nHmw 0 nAy=nA qAw n pAy=f drp > > after His women had been captured in front of him, > after his flour of provisions had been seized > > > qAw is written "Aqw", which is would be an hapax, > as the WB only list our example. > (according to Fecht, "Die Israelstele, gestalt und aussage", p. 127) > the GHWB lists qAw : GHWB, p. 848, col 2. > I read "nHmw nA qAw n pAy=f drp.w" The whole cadrat "nA qAw" seems to be (rather nicely) arranged for aesthetic reasons, with q and w taking up the vacant space over the vulture's back. One might even read "n(A) qAAw". Faulkner gives qAA, qAy, qAw "grain(?)" (his question-mark). Obviously, no problem for an Egyptian to read the appropriate word. Faulkner gives "offerings" for "drpw". Would this be grain reserved for religious purposes? Well, maybe that is reading too much into it; "provisions" is more likely on a military campaign. "The grain/flour of his provisions had been taken". Alan ============================================================================== From: "Alan Woodcock" To: "Egyptian List" Subject: Re: AEL Merneptah Stela Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 14:43:06 +0100 I'll have a shot at the next couple of sentences. wa Hr aHA**=f m nAy=f hAtyw DA=f jhy(.w?) One of his soldiers from the vanguard set fire to the camp / tents (I knew there were tents somewhere) The ** seems to be Z4a-W24 whose significance escapes me. irw m ssf Ht=f nb m wnm.t All his food-supplies were reduced to ashes. (lit. "everything of his as food was made into ashes") Faulkner gives "ss" for ashes, so it seems a fair guess for ssf also. ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 18:14:43 +0100 From: ROSMORDUC Serge To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Merneptah Stela About nA qAw : I complete agree with Alan; the second "A" as written could be read either before or after "q", hence the reading qAw doesn't even need a correction. Cadrat grouping in this stela is a bit sportive, anyway. Alan Woodcock wrote: > I'll have a shot at the next couple of sentences. > wa Hr aHA**=f m nAy=f hAtyw > after aHa, read 1*1*nw as "snw=f" "his like, his equal". "m" is a partitive (translate "among")=> " One fight each other, among his commanders"... ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2005 19:08:49 +0000 From: ROSMORDUC Serge To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Merneptah Stela Alan Woodcock wrote > wa Hr aHA**=f m nAy=f hAtyw DA=f jhy(.w?) wa Hr aHA snw=f m nAy=f HAtyw In the previous mail, I proposed that"m" was a partitive. The other possibility (which gives a close rendering), is the "m" of equivalence, which is often used to introduced the referent of a cataphoric pronoun (cataphora = placing a pronoun before the noun it refers to). e.g. : Khonsuemhab and the spirit : "Dd=sn m rA wa, m pA 3 s" : "they said in the same voice, the three men..." The rendering "m nAy=f HAtyw DA=f ..." would correspond to a late egyptian cleft sentence ("m" in cleft sentences comes from ME "in"). The problem (aside from fitting "snw=f" somewhere) would be that "m X DA=f..." would be a prospective cleft sentence "It is his chiefs who will burn ..." The following sentences I would cut this way : DAf nAy=w ihy, ir.0 m ssf Their tents have been burned and reduced to ashes, DAf : passive or zero subject perfective sDm=f ir : old perfective xt=f nb m wnmt n mnfy.t all his belonging being fodder for the (egyptian) infantry (I'm a bit unsure for this one). Regards, S. Rosmorduc ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 12:08:52 +0000 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk From: Michael Everson Subject: AEL Unicode and Egyptian Cc: n1944@adnx.org Ogden and others on the AEL list, I am now subscribed to the n1944@adnx.org discussion list where Unicode and Egyptian will be discussed. For my part I'm going to let a few days pass for interested parties to join that list before I say very much. To subscribe : mailto:n1944-subscribe@adnx.org -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com ============================================================================== From: "Alan Woodcock" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Merneptah Stela Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2005 11:29:37 +0100 Yes, of course, 2-nw, sn-nw. Elementary (wa... sn-nw, Gardiner §98). Thought it was a sort of NE determinative :-) Changes everything! Serge translates hAtyw as "commanders"; in view of the D54 walking legs determinative, might it not be "vanguard" ? m "among" - not necessarily partitive (as I understand the term, meaning sort of "shared among") - just a plain preposition? "In the vanguard (or high command), the men were fighting each other". A little more: spr=f r xAs.t, iw=f m nxw When he got back to his country, he was in misery. sp nb m tA=f; Spt=w; Ssp=f wrD (or bdf) The chief was abandoned in his own land; he was angry and exhausted. sp from spi, "be left over, abandoned" (Faulkner). Spt=w from Spt, "be discontented, angry" I suppose these verbs are to be accounted as "adjective-verbs". So "sp nb" would be a straight adjectival sentence. Spt=w with its =w seems a very good candidate for a stative (old perfective) form. (Which might be the same thing...) Ssp=f wrD - I'm guessing. Ssp seems to have a lot of idiomatic meanings associated with emotions, with an idea of "beginning" et al.: so "he began to be tired". Well, I should think he was already pretty tired, after running all night without feather, food or water and thinking of the girls he left behind him, so I'll leave out the verb Ssp. Which I suppose is NE "perfective sDm=f". I'm also guessing that the man-glyph is a standing version of A7. We already had a standing version of what I take to be A19 in the middle of line 6. Are such variantsstandard (perhaps NE) practice? xsf S-y ?? bin The evil Shay have been driven away. Is that a cat? "The evil cat-people"? The next sentence defeats me; seems to be about that feather again. ==============================================================================