From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:33:28 +0000 Subject: AEL Hieroglyph game 3 Here's the latest hieroglyph exercise from Geoff Graham. The URL is http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/games/game3.html It's also linked from the AEL main page under "Fun with Hieroglyphs". Geoff says about this: > The next exercise is a tough one. I have copied 54 wide signs for > you to attempt to identify and learn. Go to the AEL web page and have > a look. Since this one is so long, why don't you not attempt them all > in one try. It is organized into four columns. Why don't we do them > one column at a time. I: 1-12, II: 13-26, III: 27-41, and IV: 42-54. Regards, Mark. -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:43:52 +0000 Subject: AEL Admistrative: membership exceeds 200! After remaining more or less stable at about 165 over the summer, the number of people subscribed to AEL started to increased again with the start of the new semester. As of just now we have 202 members which takes us past the 200 mark for the first time! Regards, -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ ============================================================================== From: "Lynette" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Re: nefer Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:21:55 +1100 Dear Michael(Dyall-Smith), Thanks for answering my question about nfr. I don't suppose anyone knows the significance then of the heart and windpipe? Or am I being too difficult? In the sense of "goodness", "vigour", etc, I can understand the connection, so does "beauty" grow from the connection to youth, health, etc.? Also, couldn't help noticing that you're from Melbourne. Do you teach/study the subject there? And would you know where I could study, other than in a fulltime Uni. course, here in Sydney? Thanks again Lynette F. Wattters Love is the Law. Love under will. lunetta@mountains.net.au > Reply to: RE> nefer > > Dear Lynette F. Wattters, > > Welcome. Hope I'm first on this one. > Firstly, what it is:- > nfr = F35 (in the Gardiner system) > Described as a 'heart and windpipe'. > The markings seen on on the lower object show it is a heart, not a stomach. > Probably a sheep's heart from the musculature. The windpipe (trachea) may have > originally been an oesophagus. Old Kingdom examples may show a double pair of > lateral projections from the top of the windpipe, although this is simplified > to one stroke in later examples. > > Secondly, what it means: There are several possibilities. As an emblem (a > sign by itself - eg. an amulet, a vase, etc. ) it meant 'goodness' or > 'beauty', but could also mean 'happiness, good fortune, youth' and similar > ideas. > > References: > Reading Egyptian Art, R. Wilkinson > Ancient Egyptian Calligraphy, H.G. Fischer > > Hope this helps. > Mike Dyall-Smith > Melbourne > m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au ============================================================================== From: "Lynette" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL A Coptic Anecdote Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:14:05 +1100 Graham, first, thanks for the info. on nfr. I was very interested in the Coptic translation you posted. Post more whenever you can. I am sure I am not the only person interested. The quote was a tantalizing piece too. Lynette F. Wattters Love is the Law. Love under will. lunetta@mountains.net.au > Hi, > > I said before that I might offer something for those interested in Coptic > from time to time. I am not sure exactly how one could go about teaching > Coptic on a listserve like this, so I am going to experiment with various > things. This time, I am offering a brief anecdote from the Apothegmata > Patrum "Tales of the Desert Fathers". It is very short, and possibly a > little simplistic. I will try to explain what is going on so that people > will have a taste of what the last stage of Egyptian sounded like. > > The transcription is based on that system I posted to the list some time > back, and which Mark Wilson has so kindly put up on the AEL web page for > your reference. Remember that {@} represents nothing more than a > supralinear stroke above the following consonant. You will have to insert > more of these "schwa"s in other places where the scribe did not write > them, but it should be obvious where they go. I will give the entire story > and then parse it for you afterwards: > > 1 apdiabolosSbtfhnouskEmanaggelosmpouoein > 2 afouOnaheouannesnEuauOpecafnafceangpegabriElntautnnooutSarok > 3 pecafdenafceanaucentautnnooukSakeouannesnEuanokgarntimpSaan > 4 ntofdenteunouafratouOnhebol > > (Yes, it's only a four liner! And, Coptic did not put spaces between > words.) > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Here it goes: > 1 a-p-diabolos S@bt-f h@n-ouskhEma @n-aggelos @m-p-ouoein > "The devil transformed himself in an angelic costume of light." ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:53:37 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL A Coptic Anecdote Correction: "Apophthegmata Patrum". Sorry! ;-P Geoff ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 01:14:20 +0000 From: atlixco To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Beginning Materials I would appreciate it if someone could give me some guidance on what beginning materials I should get hold of to start learning egyptian. Is Gardiner still the best Grammar to get? I hear that The dictionary is the Worterbuch, is there something a little less daunting to begin with? And in English? I regret that my first language was German but I forgot it at age 5. I am interested in reading the monumental inscriptions on the temples, coffins & pyramids. Basically I come to this study as an artist & wish to extend my understanding by relating to a pictographic language in it's relation to monumental work, architecture, & wall-painting. I have been told that many Egyptian temples have been reduced to slides for comprehensive hieroglyphic etc. study, is this so? And where is such material available? I also hear that there is a Russian "panikoff"? who has done something like this published in print. I will be grateful if someone can help me with these questions yours atlixco ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:23:17 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List , atlixco@mail.zynet.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Beginning Materials atlixco wrote: > Gardiner still the best Grammar to get? I would recommend _Middle Egyptian Grammar_ by James Hoch rather than Gardiner as a place to start. (It's most easily available from the author: James_Hoch@mail.campuslife.utoronto.ca) > I hear that The dictionary is the Worterbuch, is there something a > little less daunting to begin with? And in English? _A Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian_ by R.O.Faulkner is cheaper, in English, and the "standard" that most students refer to. > I am interested in reading the monumental inscriptions on the temples, > coffins & pyramids. Basically I come to this study as an artist & wish > to extend my understanding by relating to a pictographic language in > it's relation to monumental work, architecture, & wall-painting. For these purposes I would recommend skipping, at least for the moment, a detailed basic study of the Egyptian language. Two books I think you would find fairly well suited to your needs are: Wilson, Hilary. _Understanding Hieroglyphs_ This doesn't teach the language so much as giving you a "phrase-book" sort of approach to common terms and phrases which make up so much of what is inscribed on various monuments, from the Old Kingdom to the Late Period. Wilkinson, Richard H. _Reading Egyptian Art_ This covers the hieroglyphic symbolism contained in Egyptian art. I hope these two little books will be enough to get you through the first stages of understanding Egyptian monumental art and inscription. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:07:30 -0500 From: "Oscar H. Blayton" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL A Coptic Anecdote Lynette wrote: > > Graham, > > first, thanks for the info. on nfr. > > I was very interested in the Coptic translation you posted. Post more > whenever you can. I am sure I am not the only person interested. > ============================================== I found it interesting also; and would like to see more. Oscar ============================================================================== From: "Jon Orchard" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Where to study? Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:31:42 -0000 I have just completed my degree in Archaeology, and am now looking towards studying for an MA I have always had a fascination in Egyptology, and am currently trying to teach myself to read the language. If I wanted to read Egyptology at University, preferably in the UK and at a postgraduate level, where are the recommended establishments? Would a degree in Archaeology be sufficient to study Egyptology? Also, what are the best references to read when trying to understand Egyptian, baring in mind I am a total novice... Thanks Jon Orchard ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:19:27 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Where to study? Jon Orchard wrote: > Also, what are the best references to read when trying to understand > Egyptian, baring in mind I am a total novice... I would recommend (as usual): Hoch, James. _Middle Egyptian Grammar_ Faulkener, R.O. _A Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian_ Shennum, David. _English-Egyptian Index of Faulkner's Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian_ deBuck, Adriaan. _Egyptian Readingbook_ That should get you going quite nicely! -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 19:27:03 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Where to study? Hi, Jon, > I have just completed my degree in Archaeology, and am now looking towards > studying for an MA I have always had a fascination in Egyptology, and am > currently trying to teach myself to read the language. If I wanted to read > Egyptology at University, preferably in the UK and at a postgraduate level, > where are the recommended establishments? Would a degree in Archaeology be > sufficient to study Egyptology? If you can, go to Oxford or Cambridge. I believe these are the places with full Egyptological programs, but there probably are others as well. Archaeology is a fine start. If you go to Cambridge, there is quite a bit of good archaeology going on... I think with Barry Kemp. If you are interested in more philological and art-historical pursuits John Baines is at Oxford, but he iss often on leave, I am told. > Also, what are the best references to read when trying to understand > Egyptian, baring in mind I am a total novice... I agree with Stephen Freyer's selection of books. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 19:33:37 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Ptahhotep - Papyrus Prisse Hello, Matt, > Also, the hieratic for this text is quite beautiful. Does anyone know if it > would be a copyright infringement if I scanned and posted it? I think the Prisse publication is rather old. It is certainly not in print anymore, but I do not know the specific laws. It belongs to the Bibliotheque Nationale in Paris, and they may already be scanning it for the web. You might contact them about this, since I know there is a movement to make papyri available on the web. If they have a site, then you might just link yours to theirs. If it is not already up on the web, you might offer to put it up for them if they will send you photos for the purpose. Who knows what arrangements might be possible. It does not hurt to ask them. You do, however, realize that good scans of the entire text will take up a lot of space. Yours, Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 19:18:27 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL A Coptic Anecdote Thanks, Lynette and Oscar. I know at least that there is an audience for it now. I will be sure to make other installments later. This particular text is really almost comical, is it not? It was probably meant for instructional purposes on the value of humility, but the quick fashion with which it treats its subject, and the idea of devils appearing to people and disappearing is interesting because it tells you something about how those desert monks were thinking. Though, I am not sure if it was intended to be taken literally so much as metaphorically. A temptation of the ego is answered in the "correct" response, showing the intensity of faith of the individual for the teachings of his religion. Many of the stories in this collection of desert wisdom are really very charming and fun to read. Possibly I will use more of them. However, not all are so short, and it takes a lot of effort to write notes on every word. I may develop a briefer way of imparting the necessary grammatical information, and I might also use a few sentences at a time rather than thw whole stories. Yours, Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== From: Lindsey Alton To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: RE: AEL Where to study? Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:25:46 -0000 Hi Jon, The only universities in the UK which do an undergraduate degree in Egyptology (or something resembling it!) are: Oxford, Cambridge, Liverpool and University College London. I'm afraid I don't know about postgraduate studies - my guess is that these 4 would do something but there may be one or two others. Sorry I can't be of more help. Good luck. Lindsey Alton ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Lindsey Alton VMARK Software Ltd. eMail: alton@vmark.co.uk Power House, Davy Avenue Tel: +44 (0)1908 234990 ext 201 Knowlhill, Milton Keynes Fax: +44 (0)1908 234992 MK5 8HJ, UK ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 13:05:56 +0000 From: atlixco To: AEGyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Piankoff: The Tomb of Rameses VI Serge Rosmorduc wrote: I suppose you are speaking about Piankoff's edition of the amdouat and > other funerary royal texts. It's rather difficult to find (being out > of print). > > regards, Thanks for the information. I have been told that the book I was referring to is The Tomb of Rameses VI by Piankoff my informant had got this information about it, that the inscriptions & paintings of the Egyptian tombs was largely repetitive from tomb to tomb & that piankoff's book gives a complete translation of the walls of the tomb of Rameses VI. Therefore is the representative work on the tombs. However he has no information on whether there are graphic plates covering the material as well. I wonder if you or anyone knows of this book by Princeton press 1954 & can verify or deny the presence of comprehensive coverage of the actual hieroglyphs by plates, before I go to a specialist bookfinder to whom I would have to pay a commission for finding a copy. yours atlixco ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:13:50 +0000 From: laura tilling To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL A Coptic Anecdote Just wanted you to know that I am also, "Out here". I am just learning the language and find your postings very helpful. I am not yet confident enough to join you but, I am working on it! Thanks, Laura ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:56:43 -0500 (EST) From: Tokapu@aol.com To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Re: nefer On the question of the heart and windpipe image for nfr, it is worth pointing out that "ib" the word for heart represented the emotional domain, the "territory of the heart" as it does still today. So the symbol was related to the feelings, particularly good feelings -- happiness, joy, beauty, calm, etc. The windpipe is included because the intensification of breath has always been included in imaging emotions. Tokapu http://members.aol.com/tokapu/walkle01.htm ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 12:23:53 -0600 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Mary Jo Jackel Subject: AEL Game 3 1. I picked the sn loaf even though it has the same markings as number 15 because it reminded me of a tamale (grin) 2. Hb 3. msn 4. Aw 5. sa 6. mDAt 7. nb 8. mDd 9. tm 10.mn 11.mi 12.spA-t ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:48:30 -0800 From: Kasia Szpakowska To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Piankoff: The Tomb of Rameses VI Hi. This is a two volume set complete with black & white plates. I would need to check to see if the plates are comprehensive. I believe that Hornung has an edition with the hieroglyphic text, and a separate volume with the translations. I have seen this edition for sale twice now, for $400.00 through the Advanced Book Exchange Inc. http://www.abebooks.com/ which will find books for you FREE of charge. I can check on the completeness of the plates when I get home. Good luck! --kasia szpakowska atlixco wrote: > > Serge Rosmorduc wrote: > > Thanks for the information. > > I have been told that the book I was referring to is > > The Tomb of Rameses VI by Piankoff > > my informant had got this information about it, that the inscriptions & > paintings of the Egyptian tombs was largely repetitive from tomb to tomb & > that piankoff's book gives a complete translation of the walls of the tomb > of Rameses VI. Therefore is the representative work on the tombs. However > he has no information on whether there are graphic plates covering the > material as well. I wonder if you or anyone knows of this book by > Princeton press 1954 & can verify or deny the presence of comprehensive > coverage of the actual hieroglyphs by plates, before I go to a specialist > bookfinder to whom I would have to pay a commission for finding a copy. > > yours > atlixco ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:03:34 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL pWestcar, p8 cont'd To: to AEL REGARDING pWestcar, p8 cont'd Since we are repeating text here (for the second time), I suggest we skip to last couple of lines of page 8, just noting on the way the different name of the third child. So, could I ask those on the list (perhaps new members/participants) if they could translate: a) those parts of lines 17-18 which denote the childs name b) lines 28-29. Note the structure of the first part of line 28 appears to be similar to the start of line 1, page 1; pri.t pw iri.n nTr.w s-msi.n=sn Now that I look at the transliteration (compared to the hieroglyphs), I see there is a word missing in this sentence. Can anyone spot it? Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:21:00 +0200 (GMT) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: mikeyb Subject: Re: AEL Where to study? Cc: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk >I have just completed my degree in Archaeology, and am now looking towards >studying for an MA I have always had a fascination in Egyptology, and am >currently trying to teach myself to read the language. If I wanted to read >Egyptology at University, preferably in the UK and at a postgraduate level, >where are the recommended establishments? Would a degree in Archaeology be >sufficient to study Egyptology? A degree would be sufficient. You would be able to go straight into Egyptology Masters, doing a Masters "conversion" course. The Masters would then take two years instead of one. As for universities: Manchestor, Birmingham, Cambridge, Oxford, University College London. My preference is for UCL - that is where I will be going in a while to study Egyptology (Masters course). Their staff includes people like John Tait, Fekkri Hassan, Ian Shaw. >Also, what are the best references to read when trying to understand >Egyptian, baring in mind I am a total novice... Are you referring here to the language or to the history. If to the history then I can give a whole list of books. Best wishes, ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Michael Brass Archaeology student University of Cape Town. "True without deceit, certain and most true. What is below is like what is above and What is above is like what is below, for the performing of the marvels of the one thing." (The Emerald Table of Hermes Trismegistus) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 22:58:09 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL A Coptic Anecdote On 9 Nov 97 at 18:21, Graham wrote: > > 1 apdiabolosSbtfhnouskEmanaggelosmpouoein > 2 afouOnaheouannesnEuauOpecafnafceangpegabriElntautnnooutSarok > 3 pecafdenafceanaucentautnnooukSakeouannesnEuanokgarntimpSaan > 4 ntofdenteunouafratouOnhebol > > (Yes, it's only a four liner! And, Coptic did not put spaces between > words.) I have attempted to render the above transliteration into Coptic characters on the AEL web page. See http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/coptic/example1.html Please let me know if there are any mistakes. Thanks, Mark. -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/index.html ============================================================================== From: "Leslie Bailey" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Hieroglyph game 3 - I Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:58:00 -0500 1. N-38 pool S 2. V-30 wicker basket nb 3. V-32 wickerwork frail msn 4. F-40 portion on backbone with spinal cord at both ends 3w 5. V-16 looped cord serving as hobble for cattle s3 (z3) 6. Y-1 papyrus rolled, tied, and sealed mD3t 7. V-30 wicker basket nb 8. Aa-24 warp stretched between two uprights mDd 9. U-15 sledge jm 10. Y-5 draught board mn 11. U-1 sickle m3 12. N-24 land marked out with irrigation runnels sp3t ============================================================================== From: "Leslie Bailey" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Hieroglyph game 3 - III Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:12:22 -0500 27. V-23 OK whip mH 28. F-46 intestine q3b 29. F-42 rib spr 30. N-11 crescent moon j`H 31. N-17 flat alluvial land t3 32. O-34 bolt s (z) 33. U-20 OK adze nw 34. U-21 adze at work on block of wood stp 35. T-26 OK bird trap sxt 36. V-23 OK whip mH 37. Aa-14 OK 2 ribs of oryx jm 38. N-20 tongue of land wDb 39. F-30 water skin Sd 40. F-44 leg bone with meat jsw 41. F-32 animal's belly X ============================================================================== From: "Leslie Bailey" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Hieroglyph game 3 - II Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:04:28 -0500 13. N-1 sky Hry 14. N-25 sandy hill country x3st 15. N-38 pool S 16. F-18 tusk of elephant bH 17. M-23 swt plant sw 18. V-27 OK netting needle `D 19. O-34 bolt s (z) 20. F-42 rib spr 21. F-39 backbone with spinal cord jm3x 22. M-37 bundle of flax Dr 23. T-9 oryx horned bow pD 24. Y-2 OK rolled papyrus mD3t 25. Y-5 draught board mn 26. U-31 baking instrument rtH ============================================================================== From: "Leslie Bailey" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Hieroglyph game 3 - IV Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:18:20 -0500 42. N-36 channel filled with water mr 43. N-29 sandy hill slope q 44. T-33 OK knife sharpener sSm 45. T-30 knife ds 46. V-13 tethering rope T 47. D-61 toes s3H 48. R-4 loaf on reed mat Htp 49. U-13 plough hb 50. W-8 deformed granite bowl m3T 51. T-21 barbed harpoon w` 52. O-43 OK fence Ssp 53. N-31 road bordered by shrubs Hrt 54. T-31 knife sharpener sSm ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 18:31:54 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Game 3 Hey, Mary Jo! Nice job! > 1. I picked the sn loaf even though it has the same markings as number 15 > because it reminded me of a tamale (grin) Oh, I think you are right. Yes, or a burrito or even a crepe! :-P > 2. Hb > 3. msn Yes, and there is another value too, anyone wanna try to find the other main value of 3? > 4. Aw > 5. sa Yes, and that is Old Kingdom z3 rather than s3 (but this makes no difference from the Middle Kingdom on.) > 6. mDAt > 7. nb > 8. mDd > 9. tm > 10.mn > 11.mi Almost. It is actually m3, but I would guess you knew that and typed it wrong. > 12.spA-t Yes! And there are a few more vlues that this one can have too. Any more suggestions as to what they might be? Well, Mary Jo, you were dealt a full deck and and you managed to hold onto it and get through the first column of these signs in arrayed splendor! ;-P So, I would consider the Second Column open for anyone who has some suggestions for the additional values of 3 and 12! ;-P Have fun! Graham ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:17:03 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Hieroglyph game 3 - I (Hi, Leslie. Since it is a game, I am being playful. This post is to be read in the voice of Howard Cosell, you know who I mean, that sports caster from the Seventies?) Aha! It's Leslie, and she was not aware that Mary Jo had already entered the ring, but here she comes, and she did really well! ;-P Give this woman an evening gown and pearls! > 1. N-38 pool S aaaaaangh! Wrong on that one! ;-P Look at Mary Jo's post when it gets to you. I like the way you tell exactly which sign you mean, so you do get brownie points for that! ;-P > 2. V-30 wicker basket nb aaaaangh! I am sorry, but this one is wrong too. However, after some initial trouble you did much better on the end of the column! Again, the incredible Mary Jo has shown you up! You'll have to combat her for the second column. > 3. V-32 wickerwork frail msn Right! And???? There is at least one more important value for this sign. > 4. F-40 portion on backbone with spinal cord at both ends 3w Yes! She's got it! > 5. V-16 looped cord serving as hobble for cattle s3 (z3) Right, indeed! Nice Old Kingdom {z}!!! You get a bunch of extra points for those comments on the hobble! That is the reals stuff, Leslie! I just can't keep it up... I will never make a real "Howard Cosell", so, its back to "Professor Graham". Anyway, its fun to let the hair down once in a while, n'est ce pas? > 6. Y-1 papyrus rolled, tied, and sealed mD3t right. > 7. V-30 wicker basket nb right. > 8. Aa-24 warp stretched between two uprights mDd right. > 9. U-15 sledge jm No, this one is tm. > 10. Y-5 draught board mn yes. > 11. U-1 sickle m3 yes. > 12. N-24 land marked out with irrigation runnels sp3t Yes! and????? There are a couple of other values that this sign can represent. Great job. I hope I did not frighten you with my silliness! Be well. Geoff Graham ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:59:04 -0600 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Mary Jo Jackel Subject: AEL Game 3 column 2 13. Hry,Hrw heaven, pt sky 14. xAst 15. S 16. ab 17. xt 18. wsh ? 19. s 20. mibt 21. imax 22. Dr 23. d 24. mDAt 25. mn 26. rtHty ? rtH ? xni ? ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:19:32 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Hieroglyph game 3 - II Hi, Leslie, > 13. N-1 sky Hry Yes, but there is a more comoon reading too. > 14. N-25 sandy hill country x3st yes > 15. N-38 pool S yes > 16. F-18 tusk of elephant bH yes, or boar's tusk too. It has another value too, what is that? > 17. M-23 swt plant sw No, try again. > 18. V-27 OK netting needle `D no, try again. > 19. O-34 bolt s (z) yes > 20. F-42 rib spr no, try again > 21. F-39 backbone with spinal cord jm3x yes > 22. M-37 bundle of flax Dr yes > 23. T-9 oryx horned bow pD yes > 24. Y-2 OK rolled papyrus mD3t yes > 25. Y-5 draught board mn yes > 26. U-31 baking instrument rtH yes, and another value also? Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:04:40 +0100 From: grym@prawnik.trybunal.gov.pl (Rymaszewska Grazyna) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL pWestcar, p8 cont'd _nn_ is missing. P8/L28 go: pri.t pw iri.n nn nTr.w s-msi.n=sn Regards Grazyna Rymaszewska Michael Dyall-Smith wrote: > > REGARDING pWestcar, p8 cont'd > > Since we are repeating text here (for the second time), I suggest we skip to > last couple of lines of page 8, just noting on the way the different name of > the third child. So, could I ask those on the list (perhaps new > members/participants) if they could translate: > a) those parts of lines 17-18 which denote the childs name > b) lines 28-29. Note the structure of the first part of line 28 appears to be > similar to the start of line 1, page 1; > pri.t pw iri.n nTr.w s-msi.n=sn > Now that I look at the transliteration (compared to the hieroglyphs), I see > there is a word missing in this sentence. Can anyone spot it? > > Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith > Melbourne ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:29:25 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Hieroglyph game 3 - III Hey, Leslie, what are you doing? Trying to jump the gun on Mary Jo???? ;-P > 27. V-23 OK whip mH Don't jump so fast, this one is wrong. Try again. > 28. F-46 intestine q3b yes, and at least two more values? > 29. F-42 rib spr yes > 30. N-11 crescent moon j`H yes > 31. N-17 flat alluvial land t3 yes > 32. O-34 bolt s (z) yes > 33. U-20 OK adze nw yes > 34. U-21 adze at work on block of wood stp yes > 35. T-26 OK bird trap sxt yes > 36. V-23 OK whip mH yes > 37. Aa-14 OK 2 ribs of oryx jm yes, and another value by association with somthing that looks the same? > 38. N-20 tongue of land wDb yes, and its Middle Kingdom phonetic variant? > 39. F-30 water skin Sd yes > 40. F-44 leg bone with meat jsw yes, and its other value? > 41. F-32 animal's belly X yes Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:14:51 +0000 From: atlixco To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Description de l'Egypte I was delighted to get a copy of Description de l'Egypte, that work that was the brainchild of Napoleon. It has been published by Taschen: ISBN 3-8228-8964-4. In it there are many wall paintings & even reproductions of papyri that would be very useful for practicing translation on, it is not easily readable except by magnifying glass but it could easily be scanned on a flatbed scanner however one would have to disassemble the book to do this well. At =A315 though it would be worth buying 2 copies one to scan. It is a beautiful book that gives an amazing impression of egypt in Napoleon's time, regarding this last weekend at http://sunship.com/egypt/gizaol.html I found that in the section "image banks" there were marvellous collections of photographs from 1870-1920 mainly, also an amazing site of lithographs done of egypt in 1840-60 mainly well worth spending the time downloading. I've got about 890 pictures from this site that make an amazing slideshow. (Thumbsplus, available free from www.download.com is the only piece of software that will handle some of the greyscale jpegs). Rather like a reprise of Description de l'Egypte just before the modern era. My apologies to those to whom this is old hat but for newcomers well worth looking at. yours atlixco ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:25:02 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Game 3 column 2 Hi, Mary Jo, > 13. Hry,Hrw heaven, pt sky yes > 14. xAst yes > 15. S yes > 16. ab no, try again. there are two values, but not `b, though it looks limilar to that, admittedly. > 17. xt yes > 18. wsh ? no, try again. I stumped both you and Leslie with this one I see! In the Old Kingdom it was done somewhat differently than in the Later times. > 19. s yes (z) > 20. mibt yes, and anothe value too? > 21. imax yes > 22. Dr yes > 23. d no, try again > 24. mDAt yes > 25. mn yes > 26. rtHty ? rtH ? xni ? yes, actually rtH and xnr, but it Middle Egyptian final /r/ was turning to a vowel so {j} came to hold its place. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerv.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:35:03 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Hieroglyph game 3 - IV Oh, a wise gal! Leslie, how many of these are you planning to send in a sitting? ;-P > 42. N-36 channel filled with water mr yes > 43. N-29 sandy hill slope q no, try again > 44. T-33 OK knife sharpener sSm yes > 45. T-30 knife ds yes, and also sSm... the signs got confused. > 46. V-13 tethering rope T yes > 47. D-61 toes s3H yes > 48. R-4 loaf on reed mat Htp yes > 49. U-13 plough hb yes, I think there is another value too. > 50. W-8 deformed granite bowl m3T no, try again. > 51. T-21 barbed harpoon w` yes, I think it is a harpoon in its launcher. > 52. O-43 OK fence Ssp yes (Szp) > 53. N-31 road bordered by shrubs Hrt yes, and its other even more common value? > 54. T-31 knife sharpener sSm ds and sSm OK, now that you have tackled them all, let's see who can correct all the mistakes ini a posting. Also, maybe we could use all these charts again to start building some words. How about giving examples of words in which these signs are used? Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:50:50 +0000 From: atlixco To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Hieroglyphica I found this hieroglyphica on the net at www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl people on this list are probably familiar with it. The section of the 4700 hieroglyphs is a nice part of the site & I took the opportunity to teleport it onto my pc. I see that they also do it in a book, for =A320. This is a very naive question probably, but do the sparate hieroglyphs all have valid meanings in themselves or do many of them require to be combined to give significant meaning, i.e. the english prefixes a- de- etc. have little meaning in themselves without being combined with roots & suffixes. Does anyone have the book Hieroglyphica that ccer do & is it worth getting (does it have much more content & usefullness than the site version?). I see that this work is in a sense a reductionist synopsis of hieroglyphs as they say they have removed variants. I wonder about this, it seems to me that in their neters the egyptians changed them according to their relationships to various centres in egypt. Even in the english language, the major dictionary, The Oxford still retains archaic words no longer in use that are very interesting from a linguistic point of view & to an understanding of the full scope of what has been in the mind in english. The eskimos have 26 or so words for snow. Isn't the apparent dumping of variants a dubious business if ccer are going to be a model for the further implementation of egyptology in the information age. I would have thought that an auxiliary font that contains variants might be worthwhile. However I am speaking entirely from the dark as in the case of English it is quite valid to dump variant spelling as at one time there was no standard for spelling in english & everyone spelt as they pleased, so an analogy of this might be true for the egyptian. yours atlixco ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 23:13:40 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL A Coptic Anecdote On 9 Nov 97 at 18:21, Graham wrote: > ________________________________________________________________________ > 3 peca-f de na-f ce anau ce -nt-au-t@nnoou-k Sa-ke-oua @n-ne-snEu > "But he said to him: "Look, you you must have been sent unto > another one of the brothers, > > anok gar @n-ti-@mpSa an > for, as for me, I am not worthy." > > Notes: > > peca-f "he said" > > de a Greek particle "but/and". > > na-f "to him". > > ce quote marker. > > anau from earlier j-nw "look/see" in the imperative. Hi, Geoff, I think you missed a bit here, so I'll see if I can fill the gap: -nt 2nd tense -au they -t@nnoou sent -k you sa unto? -ke another? -oua one @n of -ne the (plural) -snEu brothers anok I (translated as me?) > gar a Greek particle "for". > > @n- from earlier nj "not". It goes together with {an} at the end of > the expression, kind of like French with "ne" and "pas". > > ti- present tense conugation base for "I". > > > @mpSa from earlier *jm3x(?) "worthy". > > an end of the negation, from earlier jwn3. -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/index.html ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:47:17 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL pWestcar, p8 cont'd To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>>AEL pWestcar, p8 cont'd Grazyna was perfectly correct! The 'nn' was missing, meaning of course, 'these', and referring to the plural noun following, 'gods'. Now what about the 3rd childs name? line 28: Dd.in As.t imi=k kkw m X.t=s m rn=k pwy n.y kkw#000# The vocabulary gives the meaning of the words (verb and noun) transliterated 'kkw'. The verb is 'be dark' and the noun is 'darkness'. The statement by Isis is a close repeat (eg. of line 5 of the same page): "Do not be dark in her body/womb in this your name of 'darkness' [or perhaps 'the dark one'?]. Can someone shed a bit of light, er, no pun intended ;-) on the meaning of dark/darkness here. Is it literal, or does it denote anger, evil, etc.?? Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:39:43 -0600 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Mary Jo Jackel Subject: Re: AEL Hieroglyph game 3 - IV >OK, now that you have tackled them all, let's see who can correct all the >mistakes ini a posting. > >Yours, Geoff Graham >sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu #27 ns? #37 m? #40 iwA #43 wDb? #49 mr? #50 Tst? #53 wAt ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:18:06 -0500 (EST) From: MWhealton@aol.com To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Ptahhotep Updates Everyone: Just mentioning some updates to Ptahhotep: 1) Added Glyph Page 10. 2) Fixed a small typo on Glyph page 9 (wnn didn't have second n on the top line). 3) Repaired the link to Glyph page 4. Thanks to Grazyna Rymaszewska for pointing out the problem! Regards, Matt ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 23:00:00 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Hieroglyph game 3 - IV And, here comes Mary Jo back into the ring for round two! ;-P > #27 ns? yes > #37 m? yes, this is true, but there was another sign which is very similar which was always mixed up with this one and which has a different value altogether. > #40 iwA Very close, you mean iwa, or jw` as I would write it. > #43 wDb? yes, which is later jdb as well. > #49 mr? no, try again > #50 Tst? Yes, originating in Old Kingdom T3z, this sign came to represent Ts, and the obect's name was a T3z.t which gave later Ts.t > #53 wAt yes So far, no one has been able to guess 18. Soon, I will give in and tell. What is the other value of 3? What other values are assigned to 12? What was the other value of 16? What else cane 20 indicate? I think there are a few values for 28 which have yet to be mentioned. Yours, Geoff ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:52:34 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL pWestcar, p8 cont'd Hi, Mike, > Now what about the 3rd childs name? > line 28: Dd.in As.t imi=k kkw m X.t=s m rn=k pwy n.y kkw#000# > > The vocabulary gives the meaning of the words (verb and noun) > transliterated 'kkw'. The verb is 'be dark' and the noun is 'darkness'. The > statement by Isis is a close repeat (eg. of line 5 of the same page): "Do not > be dark in her body/womb in this your name of 'darkness' [or perhaps 'the dark > one'?]. > Can someone shed a bit of light, er, no pun intended ;-) on the meaning > of dark/darkness here. Is it literal, or does it denote anger, evil, etc.?? This is a folk etymology for the name of Neferirkare Kakai. The word kkw was felt to sound like it, so the author has used that as the origin for this name which is otherwise obscure, either some nickname or a name not of (obviously) Egyptain origin. Of course, all three children are the first kings of the Fifth Dynasty, as the text has told us, and they should be Userkaf (rendered "Usereref"), Sahure, and Neferikare also known as Kakai (rendered "Keku"). The use of kkw is simply a device explaining the name, and not too much ought to be made over its associations with real phenomina. This text has given rise to a theory that children were named by the process of conjuring them out of the womb and that names were called until one of them worked. Another thought is that some detail of the birth of a person would give them their names. This might well have been true of people in New Kingsom Thebes because we see names like Amunpena`ef (jmn-pn`=f) "Amun made him upsidedown", i.e. his was a breech-birth by grace of Amun. There are hardly any other explanations for names like these which might seem silly or unsettling in other contexts. Even names like Ramesses or Tuthmosis might be examples of such, since it makes little sense to say that a male god "gave birth" to someone, but rather it might indicate that it was upon the recitation of THAT god's particular name that the baby finally was delivered. There is no way to test such theories but these names are suggestive of something culturally relevant and this is one explanation. Yours, Geoff ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 23:18:46 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL A Coptic Anecdote > > 3 peca-f de na-f ce anau ce -nt-au-t@nnoou-k Sa-ke-oua @n-ne-snEu > > "But he said to him: "Look, you you must have been sent unto > > another one of the brothers, > > > > anok gar @n-ti-@mpSa an > > for, as for me, I am not worthy." > I think you missed a bit here, so I'll see if I can fill the gap: > > -nt 2nd tense > -au they > -t@nnoou sent > -k you > sa unto? That is Sa- (pronounce "sha-") > -ke another? > -oua one > @n of > -ne the (plural) > -snEu brothers > > anok I (translated as me?) It is "it is I" literally, but it is "I/me/mine" depending on context. Thanks, Mark, you did well. Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:16:13 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Hieroglyph game 3 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>>AEL Hieroglyph game 3 For number 18, I would guess a Dyn 5 version of the road sign, N31. If so, then that was a toughie Geoff!! Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne ============================================================================== From: To: Subject: AEL Re: The Tomb of Ramses VI Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:18:16 +0100 Dear members List, The Amduat is the most representative work in the egyptian funerary cycle of the New Kingdom. The work contains two parts: there is a short version (the Hornung' s "Kurzfassung" ) and the long-standar version (: Hornung' s "Langfassung"). The Amduat gives a systematical treatment to nocturnal Ra' s passage. It is the alone funerary work which deals with the Sokar' s kingdom (: Four-Five Hours) by explaining it as the center of netherworld or as the agent in the daily Sun (or Time) regeneration. The Amduat is a very dificult text for its translation; there is anomalous, or cryptografic writing; an ancient Budge' s edition is accesible now: the Budge' s "Egyptian Heaven and Hell", London, 1905, reprint, Dover, 1996 (: also includes the "Book of the Gates"). But the Budge' s edition and texts translations are filled with many mistakes; it is not an available edition for its stude. In "The Tomb of Ramses VI", Bollingen Series XL . 1, New-York, 1954, Piankoff gives a more accurated translation of Amduat. The Piankoff' s edition also includes a second volume with plates; Piankoff have not left an hieroglyphic copy of the Ramses VI tomb texts. Plates are not available means for editing texts from the inscribed walls. There are many pasagges quite illegibles. The chief Amduat edition is due to Hornung: "Das Amduat: Die Schrift des Verborgenen Raumes", Wiesbaden, 1963; it contains a copy of the hieroglyphic text, translation and notes. It was the firts scientific Amduat edition. Hornung chosen for his edition the Amduat text from the Amenhotep II tomb: this is the better text; but an egyptian text never appears without mistakes and proper features; the many variants are given at page end; it is a good edition; but the way Hornung chosen for his edition don't grant a continuous text reading. For clearness sake Hornung turned again to Amduat. Now, he give a synoptic text edition (without translation) in parallels vertical lines. Hornung chosen the texts from the Kings tombs of the New Kingdom. Simultaneous consultations and continuous reading are now quite possible. It contains three volumes: I: The "Kurzfassung" and "Langfassung", 1 to 3 hours; Aegyptiaca Helvetica, Genve, 1987; II: Four to Eight Hours; id., 1992; III: the fours last hours; id., 1994. This is the better Amduat edition now available. The Amduat, itself, have run over a long editorial passage toward the criticism light. Yours, Antonio Hernandez her@lander.es ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 16:05:15 -0600 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Chris Lord Subject: AEL Alexandria? Hi all, I know this is the lang list, but has anyone heard anything new about the Alexandria dig just off the coast of Egypt? Just curious because it seemed to be the biggest discovery in Egypt that I have heard of in a long time, but then again, I don't know of any inside sources where I can find anything else about current digs in Egypt. :) Thanks for your help! -Chris ============================================================================== From: "YED" To: "AEgyptian-List" Cc: Subject: AEL Beginning Materials Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 16:50:09 +0100 Hello, 10/11/1997 18:23, Stephen Fryer wrote : >I would recommend _Middle Egyptian Grammar_ by James Hoch rather than >Gardiner >as a place to start. (It's most easily available from the author: Where we can find Hoch's grammar in France (or in Europe) Thanks for this information. amicalement, Yves Dupont - Lyon Croix-Rousse - France ydupont@serveur.dtr.fr http://www.dtr.fr/homepage/ydupont/ ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:38:04 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Hieroglyph game 3 Hi, Mike, You take the cake! > For number 18, I would guess a Dyn 5 version of the road sign, N31. Yes, indeed. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 08:45:19 +0200 From: Wadih Jawish To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Unsubscibtion unsubscribe AEgyptian-L wjawish@ritsec2.com.eg ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:14:33 +0000 Subject: AEL Administrivia Dear all, I will be away from now until about Monday evening (UK time). This means that any messages sent to the list between now and Monday will not appear on the list until Monday evening. Sorry for the inconvenience... -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/index.html ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 23:22:48 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Westcar, P8, L28-29 To: to AEL REGARDING Westcar, P8, L28-29 OK, no takers, so I will offer a translation: pri.t pw iri.n nn nTr.w s-msi.n=sn rd-Dd.t m pA-Xrd.w xmt #000# "Then these gods left, (they) having delivered rd-Dd.t of the 3 children." -or 'after they had delivered ... Notes: a) pri.t pw iri.n nn nTr.w; lit. "What these gods did was to go out" is a literary past tense form used with verbs of motion. See the discussion of page 1, line 1. 'pri.t' is the infinitive of the verb 'go, go out'. 'iri.n' is the relative form of the verb 'do, make'. b) s-msi.n=sn, the verb means 'to deliver' but the suffix pronoun =sn refers back to 'these gods'. How does this work? Is it: " Then these gods who deliverd rd-Dd.t of the 3 children left" or "Then these gods left, having delivered rd-Dd.t of the 3 children." Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith, Melbourne ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:18:59 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar, P8, L28-29 Hi, Mike, > pri.t pw iri.n nn nTr.w s-msi.n=sn rd-Dd.t m pA-Xrd.w xmt > #000# > "Then these gods left, (they) having delivered rd-Dd.t of the 3 children." > -or 'after they had delivered ... > b) s-msi.n=sn, the verb means 'to deliver' but the suffix pronoun =sn refers > back to 'these gods'. How does this work? Is it: > " Then these gods who deliverd rd-Dd.t of the 3 children left" > or > "Then these gods left, having delivered rd-Dd.t of the 3 children." It is the second choice. This is a circumstantial sDm.n=f, a dependent clause form... after/when/because or some such transitional word connects it to the main clause of the sentence. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:56:11 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL pWestcar, P9 To: to AEL REGARDING pWestcar, P9 Just to let you know that the vocabulary for AEL page 9, up to line 14, has been uploaded to the pWestcar web site. You can get to it via the AEL web site, or by going to: http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/texts/ael/westcar/index.html - and following the vocab. menu. From what I have seen in constructing the vocab, the action moves on at a fast pace. We are definitely out of the labour ward; so, no more babies. With the transliteration and vocab now in place, I would encourage anyone to jump in and have a go! Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 18:33:45 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL More Apophthegmata Patrum Here are the next lines which come after the Coptic anecdote I offered you before. It is also a rather short one, and not too dissimilar to the first one: 1 andemOncoosnkehlloeuouOSeplanammofcekouOSenauepekhristos 2 ntofdepecafnaucetetnonanathumamnpetetncOmmoserofcepekhristospe 3 pakhristosanoketipisteueerofpepentafcoosceerSanouacoosnEtnceeis pekhristosmpeimaEpEmprpisteue 4 ayOnteunouauratouOnhebol Transcription and Translation: 1 a-@n-demOn coo-s @n-ke-h@llo eu-ouOS e-plana @mmo-f The demons said to another elder, desiring to lead him astray: ce -k-ouOS e-nau e-pe-khristos "do you want to see the Christ?" 2 @ntof de peca-f na-u ce -tet@n-o @n-anathuma But, as for him, he said to them: "you are accursed m@n-p-etet@n-cO @mmo-s ero-f ce -pe-khristos pe and (also) the one about whom you say: 'he is the Christ', 3 pa-khristos anok e-ti-pisteue ero-f pe p-ent-af-coo-s My own Christ, in whom I believe is the one who said: ce -erSan-oua coo-s n-Et@n ce -eis-pe-khristos m-pei-ma E pE 'if one says to you: "behold the Christ in this place or that", @mp@r-pisteue do not believe (it)!'" 4 auO n-te-unou au-@r-at-ouOnh ebol And, then they disappeared. ______________________________________________________________________ Notes: Line 1: a- past conjugation base @n-demOn "the demons" = n- + Greek daimOm, spelled {demOn} because the diphthong {ai} was already heard as /e/. coo-s "say it", but marked by a- as past, and the -s is a dummy pronoun not expressed in English. @n-ke-h@llo "to another elder", n- + ke (earlier ky) + hllo (from Demotic Xl-`3j). Elders were the senior monks in this community. eu-ouOS "they wanting", e- is a marker of a circumstantial form in Coptic. It comes from earlier jw. -u "they". ouOS from older wx3. e-plana "to lead astray", e- from earlier r. plana = Greek planein. @mmo-f "him". Coptic used prepositions to mark objects of verbs. mmof is from earlier jm=f. ce "that", marks the quotation. -k-ouOS "you want", bipartite sentence pattern for present tense with -k as the subject. In Late Egyptian this would have been tw=k-wx3, but by Late Demotic the practice was already to substitute jw=f for tw=k in such expressions. e-nau "to see", from earlier r nw. e-pe-khristos "the Christ". The object marker for {nau} is e, from older r. Line 2: @ntof de "but as for him". de is a Greek particle, and ntof is from earlier ntf. peca-f na-u ce "he said to them that" -tet@n-o @n-anathuma "you are accursed". The bipartite sentence pattern for you pl. subect, with {o} the stative of eire "do/make" means "wrought/is/are". n- = older m of predication. anathuma is from Greek anathEma, where iticism (the pronunciation of several vowels had come to be /i/) caused contemporary {E} to be heard as /i/, which could also (in Greek of the period) be written {u}. m@n- "and" p-etet@n-cO @mmo-s ero-f "and he of whom you say" ce (quote) -pe-khristos pe "he/it is the Christ" Line 3: pa-khristos "my Christ" anok "I" This emphasizes the "my" more intensely. e-ti-pisteue ero-f "in whom I believe" pe "is" p-ent-af-coo-s "the one who said" ce (quote) -erSan-oua coo-s "if one says" n-Et@n "to you pl." ce (quote) -eis- "behold" pe-khristos "the Christ" m-pei-ma "in this place" E pE "or that" @mp@r-pisteue "do not believe!" Line 4: auO n-te-unou "and then" au-@r-at-ouOnh ebol "they disappeared" Sorry for not having the energy to explain everything totally. If you have questions, let me know them. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ==============================================================================