From: "Jenny Carrington" To: "AEL" Cc: "Timofey Shmakov" Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 21:11:21 +1000 Greetings All, A few more lines, not too different from Timofey's: iw wp.n=i <86> r=i n bA=i wSb=i Ddt n=f mk I opened my mouth to my soul and I answered what he had said. Look, wp.n=i - Perfect wSb=i - Perfective (sometimes called indicative sDm=f) Ddt.n=f - Perfect Relative <87> baH rn=i mk r st(y) Asw my name stinks. Look. More than the smell of vultures r - used comparatively - 'more than' Asw - Yes, Faulkner has 'As'- 'bald headed vulture'. And the next entry, 'As' with (Aa2) pustule or gland determinative, variations of iAs, 'bald', and Ais, 'viscera' (internal organs). So that backs up the bald headed vulture with its bird determinative. Aa2 also used for wounds, bodily growths or conditions, determinative for excrement. 'Bird droppings' could also be possible, I suppose, but why not use Hs for 'excrement', and why not Aa2 as a determinative for the word in out current text? <88> m hrw.w Smw pt tAt mk on summer days when the sky is hot. Look, (or) - 'on summer days of a hot sky.' -with tAt being an adjective with feminine ending to match 'pt' sky. <89> baH rn=i mk (r) Ssp sbnw my name stinks, look, (more than) a catch of fish Faulkner notes in JEA 42 p.24, that 'r st(y)' has been omitted. ('more than the smell of) a catch of fish' <90> m hrw rsf pt tAt on a day of the catch when the sky is hot. <91> mk baH rn=i mk r st(y) Look, my name stinks, more than the smell <92> A{p}sw r bwAt nt twrw of vultures, more than a thicket of reeds A{p}sw - the scribe has slipped in a 'p', which makes me think he was thinking birds rather than droppings. <93> Xr msyt mk baH rn=i possessing (full of) wildfowl. Look, my name stinks <94> mk r st(y) HAmw r xAsw more than the smell of fishermen, more than the marshy creeks <95> nw sSw HAmw n=sn mk they have fished. Look, ... xAsw nw sSw - lit: creeks of marshes m Htp Jenny ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 12:20:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Chip Jones Subject: AEL Hymn to the Aton To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Can anyone suggest where I can find the original "Egyptian" text of this poem, "Hymn to the Aton.?" Thank you, Chuck Jones ============================================================================== From: "John Colegate" To: Subject: AEL pronunciation of reed and pair of reeds Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:27:14 +0100 What do people think the likely pronunciations of the "reed" (C20), "pair of reeds" (C21), and the "two backward strokes" ( \\ ) would have been. Would there be likely to have been any difference between the double and single reed. Would it be a difference of emphasis, or of vowel sound, or would it be like our double letters as used in English?. Is it true that there would be the sound "a", "i", or "y" always or usually associated with these heiroglyphs?. Thanks, John-C. ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: "AEL" Cc: "Timofey Shmakov" Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 21:56:30 +1000 <87> baH rn=i mk r st(y) Asw my name stinks. Look. More than the smell of vultures A quick note on vultures, which must surely have bad breath, at least, from being carrion eaters. =========================== <96> baH rn=i mk r st(y) msHw my name stinks, more than the smell of crocodiles, <97> r Hmst Xrw mrywt Xr mrywt mk more than sitting under riverbanks with crocodiles. Look, N23 could be determinative for Xrw - base, lower part, underside, below, etc., as Timofey has it: - r Hmst Xrw Xr mrywt - sitting below with crocodiles OR it could be an ideogram for mrywt - riverbanks. r Hmst Xrw mrywt Xr mrywt - sitting under riverbanks with crocodiles. I prefer the latter because of the two sets of plural signs. The meaning is pretty much the same though. <98> baH rn=i mk r st(y) Hmt Dd grg my name stinks, look, more than the smell of a woman of whom wrongdoing is said 'Dd grg r=s' "of whom wrongdoing is said" (I think) is an indirect relative clause. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong. I still get confused with participles and relative forms.) <99> r=s n TAy mk baH to the man. Look <100> rn=i mk r Xrd qn Dd r=f iw=f my name stinks, look, more than a sturdy child of whom it is said <101> iw=f n msdw=f mk baH rn=i that he belongs to him who is hated. Look, my name stinks Faulkner says this refers to the child being the offspring of adultery. <102> mk (r) dmi n ity Snn bStw <103> mAA sA=f look, (more than) a sovereign's town (abode) where one who incites rebellion watches his back. # the crocodile sign with no additional phonetic elements could be msH - crocodile ity - sovereign (even though there are usually two crocodile signs) skn - greedy, lust after Hnt - be greedy aXm - voracious spirit Ad - aggression I think 'sovereign' best fits with the rest of the sentence. Snn - from Sni - 'to enquire into' (enquires into secrets) bStw - rebellion (Faulkner - 'utter sedition') mAA sA=f - Imperfective. m Htp Jenny ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 00:45:08 -0500 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Jerome Colburn Subject: Re: AEL Hymn to the Aton At 02:20 PM 7/19/04, Chip Jones wrote: > >Can anyone suggest where I can find the original "Egyptian" text of this >poem, "Hymn to the Aton.?" Right on the AEL resources website! Go to the above URL, click "Texts" on the "stone", then click "The Great Hymn to the Aten". You can download a book-style handwritten copy and an image of the line drawing of the inscription from the original publication of the tomb of Ay, where the hymn was inscribed. We translated it on the list during Jan 22 - Apr 21, 2000 (archive weeks 154-167). ********************************** * Jerome Colburn * jcolburn@soltec.net * im nfr mDw pn m bAH mryw mDw-nTr * Today's Egyptian date at http://www.soltec.net/~jcolburn ********************************** ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:48:03 -0400 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: steve whittet Subject: Re: AEL pronunciation of reed and pair of reeds At 06:27 AM 07/20/2004, you wrote: > >What do people think the likely pronunciations of the "reed" (C20), >"pair of reeds" (C21), and the "two backward strokes" ( \\ ) would have >been. Somewhere between yah, and iah, >Would there be likely to have been any difference between the double and >single reed. Would it be a difference of emphasis, or of vowel sound, or >would it be like our double letters as used in English?. I think its like the double letters as used in English as w (who, what, why, where, when) is to u, ou; y (yeah, yes, yet, you) is to i, <, A >Is it true that there would be the sound "a", "i", or "y" always or >usually associated with these heiroglyphs?. Nobody really knows. You can cite other peoples opinions and you can compare other languages, but I'm not even sure Egyptian was pronounced the same way homogeneously throughout aegypt any more than Greek was throughout the aegean, or aenglish was throughout the lands of the angles, saxons, norse, normans, welsh, scots, celts, picts, romans and their descendents. >Thanks, John-C. regards, steve ============================================================================== From: "A.P.de Visser" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 09:53:32 +0200 A few remarks on Jennys translation and interesting notes <87> baH rn=i etc.Faulkner translates by< be detested> with a reference to this column. It is strange that Hannig does not mention this verb at all. <97>r Hmst Xrw mrywt Xr mrywt < more than sitting under riverbanks with crocodiles>. This seems a bit incorrect because it is not the sitting that stinks,but the riverbanks themselves. I think that it is therefore that Lichtheim translates: < more than a shore-site full of crocodiles>. Maybe a rather free translation but it has more logic. <98> baH rn=i mk r st(y) Hmt Dd grg < my name stinks,look,more than the smell of a woman of whom LIES ARE TOLD (instead of < wrongdoing is said> ). Indeed a Relative Form. Bram ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:28:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Chip Jones Subject: Re: AEL pronunciation of reed and pair of reeds To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Steve, maybe these might help although doesn't answer all of your questions.. The Middle Egyptian for reed (Gardiner List) is: /isw/ (pl. M40); /i/ (M17) /iarw/ (pl). Coptic gives a number of words for reed/reeds: /kaif/ /kam/ /oeik/ /shbe/ /shfe/ /ahr/ (marsh herbage) Hope this might help Chuck Jones (Gregorio) ============================================================================== From: "A.P.de Visser" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 13:45:03 +0200 <102> mk(r) dmi n ity Snn bStw< 103 > mAA sA=f I think that is a participle belonging to < dmi n ity> so that ,cf. Faulkner, you could get: . What do you think? Bram ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:37:22 -0400 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: steve whittet Subject: Re: AEL pronunciation of reed and pair of reeds At 01:28 PM 07/21/2004, you wrote: >Steve, maybe these might help although doesn't answer all of your questions.. The questions come from John Colgate the original poster who probably had something else in mind when he typed C20, (Ptah) C21(n/a) than the pronunciation of "the "two backward strokes" ( \\ )" but that was all I could address >The Middle Egyptian for reed (Gardiner List) >is: /isw/ (pl. M40); /i/ (M17) /iarw/ (pl). Page 622 reeds (English to Egyptian) gives reeds first and then papyrus (M17) flowering reed, phonetic I, (M2) det plant flower i3rw reeds (G1 M17 D21 G43) i3rw det M2 repeated 3 times (plural) (M17det writing S29 Z7 plural )isw If you go to page 555 isw (Egyptian to English) reeds which gives /isw/(M40) underneath it is /isw/ (F44) exchange payment The w /rw/ at the end reinforces the det meaning plural As to whether the i3 is pronounced with aspiration thats based on the afroasiatic/semitc rather than ie influenced coptic >Coptic gives a number of words for reed/reeds: > >/kaif/ /kam/ /oeik/ /shbe/ /shfe/ /ahr/ (marsh herbage) I can see Egyptian i3, i3rw, [Iah] becoming Coptic ahr reeds but how does the Coptic get the papyrus/exchange isw (M40) to make the transition to /kaif/ /kam/ /oeik/ /shbe/ /shfe/ ??? Perhaps the words shbe/ /shfe come from sh fdw (V12) papyrus roll and the words /kaif/ /kam/ come from k3 b3k im in f as the k3 f sdmf construction k3 f (he will say) see =A7242, p 182 oiek (omega iota epsilon kappa) doesn't seem to have either a Greek or an Egyptian etymology >Hope this might help > >Chuck Jones (Gregorio) regards, steve ============================================================================== From: "Timofey" Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:38:49 +0400 Hello Jenny and Bram! ><102>dmi n ity >a sovereign's town (abode) I absolutely disagree. Do you mean they could write it only with one crocodile sign (!!!!) and WITHOUT DETERMINATIVE OF GOD (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) It is impossible!!!! Word 'sovereign' OLWAYS HAS DETERMINATIVE OF GOD OR KING!!!!!!!!!!! (G7, A304, A40, A23, A21A) Timofey ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:25:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Jim Nicholson Subject: Re: AEL pronunciation of reed and pair of reeds To: Ancient Egyptian Language List > > >Is it true that there would be the sound "a", "i", > or "y" always or > >usually associated with these heiroglyphs?. > > Nobody really knows. You can cite other peoples > opinions > and you can compare other languages, but I'm not > even > sure Egyptian was pronounced the same way > homogeneously > throughout aegypt any more than Greek was throughout > the aegean, > or aenglish was throughout the lands of the angles, > saxons, norse, > normans, welsh, scots, celts, picts, romans and > their descendents. > These "English" people spoke mainly Latin and French at court for most of their history and did not have standardized spelling of the vulgar language well into the 17th century. They were a backwater country (discounting the Druidic era) that only began to emerge as a power around 1601. Egyptian is far older. Also, I remember pharohs requiring re-certification of the priests of Isis periodically to ensure conformity. From this, you would infer that they attempted to exercize central control over the people primarily responsible for this form of writing. Shouldn't the pronounciation be expected to be more uniform than English? Regards... -Jim N. ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 07:10:09 -0400 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: steve whittet Subject: Re: AEL pronunciation of reed and pair of reeds At 03:25 PM 07/21/2004, you wrote: > > > >Is it true that there would be the sound "a", "i", > > or "y" always or = > > >usually associated with these heiroglyphs?. > > > > Nobody really knows. You can cite other peoples > > opinions and you can compare other languages, but I'm not > > even sure Egyptian was pronounced the same way > > homogeneously throughout aegypt any more than > > Greek was throughout the aegean, or aenglish was > > throughout the lands of the angles, saxons, norse, > > normans, welsh, scots, celts, picts, romans and > > their descendents. > > > >These "English" people spoke mainly Latin and French >at court for most of their history and did not have >standardized spelling of the vulgar language well into >the 17th century. They were a backwater country >(discounting the Druidic era) that only began to >emerge as a power around 1601. Most people today wouldn't be able to understand all of the people around the world who speak their language. That's despite having had a written language and literacy for several centuries >Egyptian is far older. Also, I remember pharohs requiring re-certification >of the priests of Isis periodically to ensure conformity. From this, you >would infer that they attempted to exercize central control over the people >primarily responsible for this form of writing. > >Shouldn't the pronounciation be expected to be more uniform than English? I think pronunciation is affected by what you hear spoken (deaf people have problems with it for that reason) What you hear spoken depends on how widely you travel and how many interactions you have with other speakers. In the Badrian c 4500 BC the people of Faiyum and the people of Abkan even if they shared some communications and trade probably would have been speaking pre-afroasiatic rather than Egyptian It's hard to imagine that there came to be a recognizable Egypt much before the Naquada periods or that the people of a village in the delta frequently heard the speech of the people of Thebes. Lets allow that as small clusters of villages organized by the equivalent of oinkos, gene and phratre gradually unified into nomes and kingdoms we can talk about the predynastic Naquada I- Naquada II period that stretches from c 4000-3000 BC as one in which the Egyptian language is spoken along the Nile as far as the first cataract. Even in the dynastic period there are fewer than 100 persons per km in half the nomes in Lower Egypt and areas of settlement are separated by more than 50 miles in some places. In this period the Egyptians are more unified, and hence more uniform in language than what went before but surely not speaking the same language as Nubia, Libya, and the rest of the cultures which had developed individually but came to be included in Egypt. From the time when the kingdoms of the red lands and black lands were unified to the Middle kingdom when Nubia and Libya come under the sphere of influence of Egypt is another millenia and there is another millenia on top of that before the hieroglyphic language ceases to be used. Gardiner is a grammar of Middle Egyptian. it probably relates to the language of the Old Kingdom and the New Kingdom as Old English does to what we speak. Loprieno addresses some of this in his "Ancient Egyptian" Its reasonable to allow that things like the first second and third intermediates, along with the Hyksos occupation, the Libyan, Nubian, Ptolomaic, Persian and Roman occupations and dynasties had much the same effect on Egypts language as the invasions of the angles, saxons, romans, norse, normans and scots on the original picts and celts >Regards... > >-Jim N. regards, steve ============================================================================== From: "A.K. Eyma" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL pronunciation of reed and pair of reeds Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 11:55:20 +0200 >What do people think the likely pronunciations of the "reed" (C20), "pair of reeds" (C21), and the "two backward strokes" ( \\ ) would have been. Would there be likely to have been any difference between the double and single reed. Would it be a difference of emphasis, or of vowel sound, or would it be like our double letters as used in English?. **Although there is some uncertainty on how to interprete things, it is so that the three do not end up differently in Coptic, and that the // does not occur in Old Egyptian. It is therefore most likely that they express a functional difference, not a phonetical one. That is, double reed occurs only at a morpheme boundary, and // only morpheme-finally. The reed (and the double reed and the //) likley had the original value y, but could disappear in time in certain positions. See Peust, Egyptian Phonology, p. 49-50. Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 22:57:50 +1000 ><97>r Hmst Xrw mrywt Xr mrywt > < more than sitting under riverbanks with crocodiles>. > This seems a bit incorrect because it is not the sitting that stinks,but >the riverbanks themselves. >I think that it is therefore that Lichtheim translates: >< more than a shore-site full of crocodiles>. >Maybe a rather free translation but it has more logic. But what about Hmst - sitting? <102> mk(r) dmi n ity Snn bStw< 103 > mAA sA=f >I think that is a participle belonging to < dmi n ity> >so that ,cf. Faulkner, you could get: >watches his back or (like Lichtheim >more freely) behind his back >. Yes, I've been wondering about that. Snn - if it was "one who utters sedition" (as I suggested) it would probably have an A1 man at the end, which it doesn't. But I found it odd that a whole town would utter sedition. Though grammatically it seems to be that way. Parkinson, Lichtheim, Faulkner all translate this something like: "more than a town of the sovereign which utters sedition behind his back." But I don't get 'behind'. Where does that come from? ... Ah, of course ..."When it sees his back", I suppose, would mean when his back is turned to the town. Re: ity - sovereign. I know it is most unusual but variations can occur. Faulkner has one entry on page 33, where 'it(y)' is spelled phonetically with the reed flower and the bread, with no god or king sign. m Htp Jenny ============================================================================== From: "Timofey" Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:48:28 +0400 Hello Bram! >Maybe a rather free translation but it has more logic. We all try to get understandable or logical translation instead of thinking about grammar. Timofey ============================================================================== From: "Andrew Grundy" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: AEL Chapelle Rouge, registers 2 and 7. Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:23:02 +0000 Dear list-members, I'm a novice in this field of ANE research and I am trying to locate printed or online English translations of registers 2 (oracle report blocks) and 7 (coronation blocks) of the so-called Chapelle Rouge. Does anyone know how I can get my hands on translations of these blocks? Thank-you for your time and patience, Andrew C Grundy. ============================================================================== From: "A.P.de Visser" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Chapelle Rouge, registers 2 and 7. Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2004 11:36:27 +0200 I am far from sure that thi is what you mean but in< Ancient records of Egypt, vol.2, by Breasted > you can find on the pages 55-67 a ,, Coronation Inscription,, from the exterior of the south wall of the chambers south of the sanctuary in the Karnak temple of Amon ( quotation from Breasted) kind regards Bram ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Grundy" To: Sent: Thursday, July 22, 2004 9:23 PM Subject: AEL Chapelle Rouge, registers 2 and 7. > Dear list-members, > > I'm a novice in this field of ANE research and I am trying to locate printed > or online English translations of registers 2 (oracle report blocks) and 7 > (coronation blocks) of the so-called Chapelle Rouge. Does anyone know how I > can get my hands on translations of these blocks? > > Thank-you for your time and patience, > > Andrew C Grundy. ============================================================================== From: "Andrew Grundy" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: Re: AEL Chapelle Rouge, registers 2 and 7. Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 16:30:23 +0000 To clarify, I am referring to the shrine that was built to house the Userhat-Amen (Amen's barque or barge), which was situated inside the Karnak-temple. These two series are thought to have been inscribed on the outside walls of the shrine. Register 2 concerns an oracle of Amen conferring the kingship on Hatshepsut, and register 7 provides a third-person account of her coronation. Sadly, I am unable to read the French translations of these texts and was hoping that English translations might be in print or online, but this does not appear to be the case. I am wondering if anyone has made English translations of these texts that I might be able to have access to. Many thanks for your time and patience, Andrew C Grundy. ============================================================================== From: "Timofey" Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 11:14:28 +0400 I still disagree Sinuhe (line 12-13, 9 (Berlin 3022, 11-20) sAH.n=j r dmj n gAw I have reached town of long horned bull There are the same (which includes animal) names in Old Kingdom: jA.t msH.t (hill of female crocodile) iw wnS (island of wolf) There is name in modern Egypt: Com-Ombo (hill of crocodile) So dmj n mzH 'town of crocodile' Truly yours Timofey ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 02:51:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Sam Subject: AEL "erpat" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk I would appreciate any info concerning the AE title "erpat". Some have speculated that it means "hereditary prince". Thanks ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 10:42:18 +1000 Line <102> If it is 'town of the crocodile', is it meant to be a specific town? One would expect that in a historical text, but these all seem to be symbolic images of life. May I quote Richard Parkinson in his book "The Tale of Sinuhe and other Ancient Egyptian Poems" Oxford 1997. p.163, note 27: "This lyric ends not on a personal level, but with a description of dissent in the state; this wider horizon is developed in the following lyric. The motif of crocodiles continues indirectly through puns: sovereign is normally written with two crocodile hieroglyphs and the verb to utter treason is homonymous with to 'be infested with crocodiles' (74)." m Htp Jenny ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:50:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Chip Jones Subject: Re: AEL "erpat" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Gardiner's dictionary of Middle Egyptian gives the same meaning /iry-p't/ "prince" or "hereditary prince". Chuck Jones (Gregorio) ============================================================================== From: "Katherine Griffis-Greenberg" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL "erpat" Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 07:53:54 +0100 "Sam" wrote: I would appreciate any info concerning the AE title "erpat". Some have speculated that it means "hereditary prince". Thanks ------------ ***Assuming you are talking about the term /r-pa.t/, Ward defines the term as "hereditary noble," (Ward 1982: 102, No. 856) which is the equivalent of "count." Thus, as was discussed in Lana Troy's work on the "hereditary princess" debate, its feminine equivalent, /rt-pa.t/ does not mean "Hereditary Princess," but simply "noblewoman of hereditary status." Both were merely an honorifics as used by commoners who achieved retainer status in the royal court by the Middle Kingdom, and were considered "speakers" to the common people for the king (Ward 1986: 45-46; Troy 1986: 68, 133-134). Ward noted that nomarch's wives used this title based upon their husband's position only, and eventually it was used as an equivalent title of "countess" (cf. also Mertz 1952). The terms come into existence about the 13th Dynasty, but they are not royal titles in and of themselves, although many royal women of Dynasty 18 also referred to themselves as /rt-pa.t/, beginning with Ahmose, mother of Hatshepsut (who was also wife of a king and sister of a king). Noblemen and noblewomen are known during the New Kingdom to have become elevated to royal status by either marriage, giving birth to the king, or divine intervention (Ay (Schaden 1977) and Horemheb (Murnane and Meltzer 1995) come quickest to mind in the case of male nobles; meanwhile Isis, mother of Thutmose III, Tiye, wife of Amenhotep III, Nefertiti, wife of Akhenaten, and Ty, wife of Ay (Troy 1986: 163 - 168, Reg. A: 18.12, 18.17, 18.34, 18.41, 18.52), come to mind in the cased of elevated noblewomen to royal status by their respective regents). Hwever, the /r-pa.t/ and /rt.-pa.t/ titles are not an definitive indicators of any royal birthright claim to the throne. Not all king's wives or daughters, for example, were /rt-pa.t/, but held their status due to other relationship titles, for example, as in the case of epithets such as /sA nsw nt xt.f/ "king's son of his own body," or /sA.t nsw nt xt.f/ "king's daughter of his own body." Here, such terms usually indicated true direct lineage to the royal house and are thus more significant indicators of familial royal lineage. References: Mertz, B. 1952. Certain Titles of the Egyptian Queens and Their Bearing on the Hereditary Right to the Throne. Oriental Languages and Literature. Ph. D. Dissertation (Unpublished). University of Chicago: Chicago. Murnane, W. J. and E. S. Meltzer 1995. Texts from the Amarna Period in Egypt. Society of Biblical Literature: Writings from the Ancient World Series. Vol. 5. S. B. Parker Atlanta: Scholars Press. Schaden, O. J. 1977. The God's Father, Ay. History. Ph.D. Dissertation (Unpublished). University of Minnesota: Minneapolis. Troy, L. 1986. Patterns of Queenship: in ancient Egyptian myth and history. BOREAS 14 Uppsala: ACTA Universitatis Upsaliensis. Ward, W. A. 1982. Index of Administrative and Religious Titles of the Middle Kingdom. Beirut: American University of Beirut. __________. 1986. Essays on Feminine Titles of the Middle Kingdom and Related Subjects. Beirut: American University of Beirut. Hope this assists. Regards -- Katherine Griffis-Greenberg, MA (Lon) Oriental Institute Oriental Studies Doctoral Program [Egyptology] University of Oxford Oxford, United Kingdom http://www.griffis-consulting.com ============================================================================== From: "Timofey" Subject: Re: AEL "rx njswt" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 13:01:19 +0400 Dear Katherine I would appreciate any info concerning the AE title "rx n.j sw.t". I think I know real meaning of this title. It is neither 'king's acquaintance' nor 'concerned to king's thing' ((j)r(j) x(.t) n.j sw.t) "rx n.j sw.t" is disfigured title 'jmAxw xr n.j sw.t' 'Revered one before king' In ME meaning could change, but I have no doubt in Old Kingdom 'rx nswt' meant 'Revered one before king' That is why this title was written for women 'rx.t nswt' with 't' ending '(jmA)x.t (x)r (n)sw(t)' = 'sw + r + x + t' It is my discovery. I am going to write article about this title soon. Timofey ============================================================================== From: "Timofey" Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 14:00:19 +0400 Hello Jenny! >'sovereign is normally written with two crocodile hieroglyphs' The most important note is that there is no determinative of 'divine being'. In all cases (even with one crocodile) determinative must be after this holy word 'sovereign'. We could find determinative of god after all god names in the text, so we can expect it after word 'sovereign'. I have no doubt that the reason is that our word means 'crocodile' 'mzH'. Timofey ============================================================================== From: "Timofey" Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 13:44:59 +0400 Hello Jenny! >If it is 'town of the crocodile', is it meant to be a specific town? Yes Jenny, it could be real town or settlement. >One would expect that in a historical text, but these all seem >to be symbolic images of life. I don't think so. In 'To whom shall I speak today' our hero tells about events really happened in first intermediate period. 'Everything is bad' we can say it shorter. Symbolic images of life are for 'My name stinks', 'Death for me today'. >'is homonymous with to 'be infested with crocodiles' (74)." Yes Jenny our text really 'infested with crocodiles' (74) S Sn 'Lake infested with crocodiles' (75) grH Xr mrywt 'night with crocodiles (lit. 'they who on the bank'='bankers') (79) Hr n xnty 'face of crocodile god' (96) r st msH.w 'worse than smell of crocodiles' (97) Hms.t Xr.w Xr mrrywt 'sitting below with crocodiles' (102) dmj n mzH 'town of crocodile' Truly yours jj.n n=j 4 sS m Htp, sin=j n ky Timofey ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: "AEL" Cc: "Timofey Shmakov" Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba Date: Sun, 25 Jul 2004 20:00:44 +1000 <103> ..... Dd=i n m min snw bin To whom shall I speak today? Brothers are bad. <104> xnmsw nw min n mr.ny Dd=i Friends of today do not love. n mr.ny - It could be the obsolete dual, ny - 'we two', since the previous line talks about brothers, or his 'second'. Though Gardiner (486) says the two strokes are in the place of an omitted subject - which would make 'n mr.n=sn'. <105> n m min awn-ib s nb Hr iTt To whom shall I speak today? Every man is rapacious, seizing awn-ib - be rapacious <106> xt snwy=fy his brother's things. <107> iw sf Aq nxt Hr hAw n bw- Gentleness has perished. Violence descends on everyone. <108> nb Dd=i n m min Htp Hr bin To whom shall I speak today? (One is) content with evil. <109> rdi rf bw nfr r tA m st nbt Dd=i n m Goodness is neglected in every place. To whom shall I speak bw-nfr - noun, 'good, goodness' . Faulkner p.131 under nfr. rf - enclitic particle, for emphasis. rdi r tA - 'cast on the ground' (neglected) <110> min sxAr s m sp=f bin ssbt<111>=f bw-nb today? A man who enrages with his bad conduct makes everyone laugh or is that "who is enraged"? Actually, according to Parkinson, Lichtheim and Faulkner, sxAr is translated as 'who should enrage', which "... brings out the intended contrast between what ought to be the state of affairs and what actually happens." (Faulkner, JEA42, p.38, note 92.) So does that make 'sxAr' a Subjunctive? or a Participle (as it includes 'who')? iw=f Dw Dd=i n m when he is bad. To whom shall I speak <112> min iw HaDA.tw s nb Hr iTt snwy today? Every man has been plundered and is robbing his brother. (OR) One plunders, every man robbing his brother. The question is, does 's nb' (every man) go with 'iw HaDA.tw' or with 'Hr iTt snwy'. ie. Is 's nb' the subject, with a sDm=f verb and passive suffix (every man has been plundered), or is 'tw' the subject (one plunders) which would make 's nb' the subject of the following pseudi-verbal construction with Hr infinitive? Can 's nb' act as the subject of both clauses? iw HaDA.tw s nb - adverbial clause s nb Hr iTt snwy - pseudi-verbal construction. ??? <113> =f Dd=i n m min btA m To whom shall I speak today? The wrongdoer is btA - Faulkner JEA42, note 94: "it thus appears that owing to a certain resemblance in hieratic between U30 and V15, the scribe has perpetrated a 'vox nihili' (empty word) conflated out of 'wrongdoing' and 'disease'. The former is of course the word required." 'm' at end of line is the m of predication <114> aq-ib sn ir Hna=f xpr an intimate friend, and the brother with whom he used to act, has become <115> m xft(y) Dd=i n m min n sxA.t(w) sf an enemy. To whom shall I speak today? Yesterday is not remembered, <116> n ir.t(w) n ir m tA At Dd=i n m min one does not do for the doer at this moment. To whom shall I speak today? Meaning that one forgets the help that was given previously, and does not now offer to help the person who helped him. ir - 'the doer' has seated man determinative which indicates it is a noun. m Htp Jenny ==============================================================================