Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 11:25:47 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Weni home page To: to AEL REGARDING Weni home page A couple more notes concerning the weni web pages (linked from the AEL home page): a) I've lightened up the background of the weni home page because there are some users whose browsers don't recognise colors in tables. b) If you have problems with the frame sizes when using the vocabulary, both netscape and Internet explorer can resize them. Use your cursor to drag the windows up or down for your convenience. c) If the vocab page doesn't work for you, please let me know. Make sure the entire page has downloaded first. Next, try reloading (in case your browser has stored an old copy of the page). If no luck still, then it is probably a real fault with the page. If anyone has suggestions for improving the site, please tell me. I've kept it fairly free of graphics so the download time is fast. If you find it slow, or difficult to access, you could try and download the whole site and use it (with your browser) on your personal computer. Perhaps some would like a page combination of frames different from that offered by the vocab page? Regards, Mike D-S Melbourne, Australia ============================================================================== From: "Leslie Bailey" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL (Fwd) Hieroglyphic Game 1 Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 19:22:47 -0500 The following are my guesses: # Gardiner's sign # bird Phonetic Value 1. G-1 Egyptian vulture 3 2. G-42 fatted duck 3. G-4 long-legged buzzard? 4. G-40 pintail duck flying p3 5. G-17 owl m 6. G-14 vulture nr 7. H-1 head of pintail duck? But it looks like a goose head. 8. G-43 quail chick w 9. G-36 swallow wr 10. G-5 falcon dot h rw 11. G-1 Egyptian vulture 3 12. G-17 owl m 13. G-4 long legged buzzard tyw 14. G-17 owl m 15. G-1 Egyptian vulture 3 16. G-23 lapwing r circle h yt 17. G-1 Egyptian vulture 3 18. G-5 falcon dot h rw 19. G-36 swallow wr 20. G-25 crested ibis 3 circle h ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 23:22:56 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P8 / L1-6 Hi, Mark V., > P8/L1 > aHa.n D .n=s > Then she said > > n.y-sw.t iri.ty=fy n.y.t-sw.t m tA pn r Dr=f > A king, he will exercise kingship in this entire land jrj.ty=fy is a future participle, so you need to say "who" instead of "he", but otherwise, this is perfect. > P8/L2 > Xnm.w Hr s-wDA Ha.w=f > Khnum was causing his limbs to be healthy Yes. I like to take a little ilberty and say "activating his limbs". > P8/L3 > rdi.in sy As.t xft Hr=s > Isis placed herself infront of her > > nb.t-Hw.t HA=s > Nephthys behind her > > P8/L4 > Hq.t Hr s-xx msi.w.t > Heket was hastening the birth > > P8/L5 > Dd.in As.t > Said by Isis The jn in this construction does probably come from the same jn as "by", however it is its own construction, and could be translated simply as "then Isis said". > imi n=k sAH m X.t=s m rn=k > You will not kick in her belly in (this) your name jmj is an imperative form of the neegative verb, so you would need to make it imperative rather than future: "do not kick..." > P8/L6 > pwy n.y sAH.w-ra > (this) of Sahure [Re the kicker ?] Yeah, kind of... maybe more like "Re strides"? Thanks for the translations. Good job. Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 14:28:05 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL (Fwd) Hieroglyphic Game 1 Hi, Leslie, I see you had little trouble with this excercise. > # Gardiner's sign # bird Phonetic Value > > 1. G-1 Egyptian vulture 3 Quite right. > 2. G-42 fatted duck Great job! And, that was a hard one. The phonetic values of this sign are: wS3, wdf, Df3, etc... The Egyptians often confused it with the pintailed duck and the goose signs as well, though sometimes I suspect that modern Egyptologists are the ones who do not see that the sign is different. > 3. G-4 long-legged buzzard? Yes, indeed. I can't believe how well you are doing. This sign's value was tjw or tyw. The bird is also known as Buteo Ferox. The actual bird is broun with variagated plumage. The Egyptians painted the sign as yellow and details were picked out with black and red strokes. Now, the reason that I go into this detail on its paint is that it can look so much like either the Egyptian vulture or the falcon, that paint is sometimes the best clue if it happens to be there. I will mention the paint of the others in a minute. > 4. G-40 pintail duck flying p3 Quite right. It can be confused with Xn, but with the wings spread in this fashion, rather than both behind the bird, it is rightly p3. > 5. G-17 owl m Right. > 6. G-14 vulture nr Quite right, but the vulture also has the value mwt as well. > 7. H-1 head of pintail duck? But it looks like a goose Yes, or a goose, the kind of bird is less important here. The phonetic value is p3q. > 8. G-43 quail chick w Right. > 9. G-36 swallow wr Yes. This bird is often confused (but never byt he Egyptians) with the sparrow Sr. > 10. G-5 falcon dot h rw Yes. Hrw (dotted h is capital H in ascii) Now, this bird would be painted with a white front and green and/or blue plumage on its wing and tail. The falcon markings would be painted in black oround its eye. > 11. G-1 Egyptian vulture 3 Yes. Now, this bird, also known as Phron Percopterus, is white with a yellow ruff around its head. The wing is grey. THe Egyptians painted it with these colors, but a greenish wing. So if a bird that looks lik it could be 3 or tyw has these colorings, it is 3. > 12. G-17 owl m Yes. > 13. G-4 long legged buzzard tyw Quite right. > 14. G-17 owl m Yes. > 15. G-1 Egyptian vulture 3 Yes. > 16. G-23 lapwing r circle h yt Yes. The contact lens h is written x in ascii. rxyt > 17. G-1 Egyptian vulture 3 Yes. > 18. G-5 falcon dot h rw Yes, Hrw. > 19. G-36 swallow wr Yes. > 20. G-25 crested ibis 3 circle h Yes, 3x. I am truly impressed. You got them all on the first try!!! Now, who has questions? Let's talk some more about these signs, while we have them on the mind. I bet there are some budding ornothologists or people with interesting ideas out there. What about the dates of the glyphs? Does anyone have an idea as to which two are 18th dynasty? Does anyone else have any comments on how you can recognize one bird from another? What other birds did I not illustrate in this picture? Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 23:37:54 -0600 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Mary Jo Jackel Subject: AEL Game Geoff asked me to post this on the list so here it is for discussion. Geoff, Your game is great. I tried identifying some of the birds from memory, then I looked them up in Gardiner to see what the others were and found that I had missed for sure on number 2. My memory list was 1.A, 2.sA, 4.pa, 5.m, 6.mut, 8.w, 11.A, 12.m, 13.A, 14.m, 15.A, 17.A. My "old timer's" memory slipped up on 3,10,and 18 which I should have known as Hrw. I mistook 20 for bA. After looking at Gardiner, I think the others are: 9.wr, 16.rxyt, 19.wr, 20.Ax. I could not find a definite answer for 7. Anyway, thanks for the fun. Mary Jo ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:43:05 +0200 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Aton hymn / Bibliotheca Aegyptiaca I have been asked for the title of P. Grandet's edition of the Hymn to Aton. It is "Hymnes de la religion d'Aton", published by the Editions du Seuil, in the "points sagesses" collection. ISBN 2.02.022058.X It's a really nice little book, with a good summary of Amarna's problems. regards, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) 66, rue Alexandre Dumas 75011 Paris tel 01 48 70 37 09 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 20:23:48 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Game Hi, Mary Jo, Thanks for contributing your work to the list. > Geoff, Your game is great. I tried identifying some of the birds from > memory, then I looked them up in Gardiner to see what the others were and > found that I had missed for sure on number 2. My memory list was 1.A, 2.sA, > 4.pa, 5.m, 6.mut, 8.w, 11.A, 12.m, 13.A, 14.m, 15.A, 17.A. As you have probably seen by now, Leslie successfully negotiated all the birds, even though you actually sent this to me first. You also did a very good job. Yes, number 2, does look vey much like the pintailed duck z3, but look at the fatness around its neck and how its head seems to sit on its shoulders instead of rising up on a longer neck. This is the only major difference between wS3/wdf/Df3 and z3 as well as gb. The Egyptians themselves often confused them, but usually in the other direction. They used z3 or gb in places that wS3/wdf/Df3 would have been required. One also has to ask why there are so many values for this sign anyway. I think that an earlier pelican sign was also conflated with the bird in question, and that maybe wS3 was the original reading of that sign, but I myself am not entirely sure. wdf might be determined by this bird because it means to daudle or delay, and a fatted duck probably moved more slowly(?) Also Df3 meaning to supply or nourish probably had this sign because the fatted duck is well fed. # 13 is possibly the trickiest one since it is actually the tyw bird. So many hieroglyphic texts seem to make 3 and tyw look very similar, however, in hieratic they looked quite distinct. Budge often made mistakes between these too birds as did many of the early Egyptologists. All the rest of your first list were right. > My "old timer's" memory slipped up on 3,10,and 18 which I should have known > as Hrw. I mistook 20 for bA. After looking at Gardiner, I think the others > are: 9.wr, 16.rxyt, 19.wr, 20.Ax. I could not find a definite answer for 7. > Anyway, thanks for the fun. Mary Jo Yes, as for #3, it has a rounded head like Hrw, but look at the low placement of its wing. The falcon sign should have a very rounded breast with a high wing. This bird is rather bottom-heavy, indicating to me that it must also be the tyw bird. tyw birds should have rounded heads, while 3 birds have rather pointed or rectangular crests. The falcon's head is slightly larger and there is les of a neck between the body and head. Compare #3 to #18, and you will see what I mean. All the rest are right. Very good job, Mary Jo! Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 06:33:42 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Westcar To: to AEL REGARDING Westcar The commentary for page 8 has been updated and the 'clickable' vocabulary for page 8 has been extended to line 13. Mark has got us up to line 6. Somebody jump in and continue please. A question regarding (AEL) lines 5-6, where Isis says: imi=k sAH m X.t=s#000# m rn=k #000#pwy n.y sAH.w-ra#000# "Do not kick in her womb in (this) your name#000# of Sahure [Re strides]#000#" How should the preposition be translated here? There is an imperative construction "Do not kick..." and this is followed by the name of the child; a name that includes the same verb (kick, etc). So was the name of the child given based on the immediate events (the child is kicking), or was the name already decided, and the meaning would then be something like, "Do not kick EVEN THOUGH your name is 'Re strides'? Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne, Australia ============================================================================== From: "BDTF HALLGATO" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:50:46 GMT +0200 Subject: AEL learning hieroglyphs Since it's been not a long time since I was a beginner as far as hieroglyphis studies are concerned I still have vivid memories about the great number of problems a simple student might be faced with. I've been checking this list for many-many months and being a language teacher I am particularly interested in some methodological debates. It is of common knowledge that there is a very restricted number of supplementary materials for egyptian grammars to support a student in the process of REAL language acquisition. One member of this list complained about missing a book containing exercises, sentences to translate and the key to control the own progress. A lot of publications were offered for him/her including introductions into some grammar points. However, I have not heard about van Buck's "Egyptian Reading Book" from any of you, although it was the greatest help for me when having started jumping in Middle Egyptian. It is very much a sufficient work for those having lectures from Gardiner's grammar as one can come across a lot of example sentences, even words and smaller elements of grammar collected according to Gardiner's syllabus. Is there a particular reason for forgetting about this work, I mean has it been outdated? Or is there any other better source of practice that I do not know about? Regards Zoltan Horvath Hungary, ELTE UNIVERSITY,Budapest ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:08:28 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Re: de Buck/no name... To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE> de Buck/no name... Regarding my response to de Buck's 'Egyptian Reading Book'. Sorry I left off my name/address. My young son threw a book at the keyboard and managed to hit the return key.... Perhaps one of the professionals on the list could give an impression of how useful they found this book. Mike Dyall-Smith, Melbourne ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 07:29:17 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL learning hieroglyphs To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>AEL learning hieroglyphs A. de Buck's 'Egyptian Reading Book' is very much part of the AEL discussion and should have been mentioned. The Westcar papyrus currently being analysed is from this book and you will see references to both the AEL pages and de Buck's pages for the same piece of text. For those who have not seen it, it is a graded series of exercises, from signs, to words, to phrases, to long passages (such as the Westcar material). The first sections include transliterations, but this disappears in later sections. There is no translation, nor a vocabulary section. A volume II is mentioned in the foreword which is supposed to contain these. Does anyone know if this was ever published? ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 23:47:29 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Westcar Michael Dyall-Smith writes: > REGARDING Westcar > > A question regarding (AEL) lines 5-6, where Isis says: > imi=k sAH m X.t=s#000# m rn=k #000#pwy n.y sAH.w-ra#000# > "Do not kick in her womb in (this) your name#000# of Sahure [Re > strides]#000#" > > How should the preposition be translated here? There is an imperative > construction "Do not kick..." and this is followed by the name of the child; a > name that includes the same verb (kick, etc). So was the name of the child > given based on the immediate events (the child is kicking), or was the name > already decided, and the meaning would then be something like, "Do not kick > EVEN THOUGH your name is 'Re strides'? This is more litterature than grammar. The great number of etymology examples which were given here lately suggest that what we have here is a (somehow humouristic) etymology for the names of the Vth dynasty kings. ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:20:18 -0800 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List , OsirisList Subject: AEL Hieratic News I have finally got around to doing a little more with my Hieratic web pages. I have added a facsimile (96dpi) of the entire original of the story of the Shipwrecked Sailor (P.Leningrad 1115) for those who want to try their hands at a REAL hieratic papyrus. As with all such original documents, it is not always clear and easy to read. I have also added an extra warning to the pages - Internet Explorer (at least up to version 3) doesn't handle automatically mailing fill-in forms properly. Therefore the "automatic" submission of anwers to exercises doesn't work. If you are using IE, you will have to do things the hard way. It works beautifully with Netscape though. I have had a number of interesting messages about the site which I could not respond to because the return mail address was incorrect. If that applies to anyone on this list - please try again! The Hieratic lessons pages are at http://home.prcn.org/~sfryer/Hieratic/index.html -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 31 Oct 97 16:12:44 UT From: "mark vygus" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Westcar P8/L7-12 I`m beginning to like this translating stuff ! Thanks for your corrections, they are very helpful to me. P8/L7 war.in Xrd pn tp a.wy=s m Xrd n.y mH wa This child rushed forth before her, a child of 1 cubit (in length) P8/L8 rwD qs.w=f His Bones were strong P8/L9 nxbt a.w.t=f m nbw afn.t=f m xsbD mAa his limbs were covered in gold, his Royal headdress of real lapis-lazuli P8/L10-11 iai.in=sn sw Sad XpA=f rdi Hr ifd.y m Db.t They washed him, cut his umbilical cord, (then) placed (him) upon a cloth on bricks P8/L12 aHa.n mzA.n sy msi-xn.t r=f Then Meskhenet approached him Mark Vygus ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 19:25:03 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar > A question regarding (AEL) lines 5-6, where Isis says: > imi=k sAH m X.t=s#000# m rn=k #000#pwy n.y sAH.w-ra#000# > "Do not kick in her womb in (this) your name#000# of Sahure [Re > strides]#000#" > > How should the preposition be translated here? There is an imperative > construction "Do not kick..." and this is followed by the name of the child; a > name that includes the same verb (kick, etc). So was the name of the child > given based on the immediate events (the child is kicking), or was the name > already decided, and the meaning would then be something like, "Do not kick > EVEN THOUGH your name is 'Re strides'? I think it says "in this your name of Sahure", no more nuances than that. Yours, Geoff ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 19:09:01 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar P8/L7-12 > P8/L7 > war.in Xrd pn tp a.wy=s m Xrd n.y mH wa > This child rushed forth before her, a child of 1 cubit (in length) tp `.wy=s means "upon her hands", but otherwise this is good. > P8/L8 > rwD qs.w=f > His Bones were strong right... > P8/L9 > nxbt a.w.t=f m nbw afn.t=f m xsbD mAa > his limbs were covered in gold, his Royal headdress of real lapis-lazuli right... (`fn.t can be coiffure too. It means his hair.) > P8/L10-11 > iai.in=sn sw Sad XpA=f rdi Hr ifd.y m Db.t > They washed him, cut his umbilical cord, (then) placed (him) upon a cloth on > bricks Now, we are back to this line with the strange fors again. I know we went over it before, but the only thing sticking in my head is the passive sDm.w=f form of S`d, then the rest still eludes me. What did James Hoch finally suggest again for rdj? I think it means "his umbilical cord was cut, and (he) was placed upon a brick-shaped pillow". > P8/L12 > aHa.n mzA.n sy msi-xn.t r=f > Then Meskhenet approached him more like "leaned over". Literally "extended herself toward him". Good job. Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 07:53:55 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Westcar Vocab p8 To: to AEL REGARDING Westcar Vocab p8 Mark is moving us along nicely and we have reached the end of the 'clickable' vocabulary (which went to about line 10). I have now added the vocabulary for the rest of page 8 at the westcar web site: http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/texts/ael/westcar/P8VOCAB/P8FMSET.HTM We should be able to complete the translation of this page fairly quickly! Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au ==============================================================================