Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 20:20:17 +0200 From: "Doc(Ent)" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL most used words and phrases Hi, Take a look at Jim Loy's homepage at http://www.jimloy.com/egypt/egypt.htm You can find his dictionary there as well as abundance of other AE material. -- Zbigniew Szczudlik doc73@NOSPAMpoczta.fm ============================================================================== From: Fabio Vassallo To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL most used words and phrases Date: Mon, 10 May 2004 12:00:49 +0100 John Corridan wrote: > Does anyone know of a reference (on line or otherwise) which lists > only the most widely used words? Thanks. John, I repost the answer I wrote for a similar question around a year ago. The second volume of Hannig dictionary ("Hannig Lexica 2. Wortschatz der Pharaonen in Sachgruppen") have something like that (it's not not online, but easily buyable, for instance from www.atleest.com). The first sections of the book make up a really good list of AE basic words indeed (translated in German). Firstly there are some little sections (in total about 50 pages) listing the main grammatical items (articles, demonstratives, pronouns, prepositions, nisbes, etc.); then there is a section (about 100 pages) called "Grundwortschatz" (basic vocabulary) with around 2000 AE words together with their German translation. Ciao, Fabio. ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba (15-16) Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 21:16:39 +1000 Hi Timofey, > We can find at the beginning of text *ns=sn* - i.e. plural >*Their tongue(s)* > >iw nA wr r=i m mim >Maybe it is: These ones (=sn) are greater then I today. As it is most likely that the first part is spoken by the soul, and that which follows (in a new 'paragraph') is what the man said, I would think the 'nA' would have to refer to what is immediately before it, which is the man having to answer the soul's objections. <3-4> I opened my mouth to my soul, that I might answer what he had said. It is overwhelming for him to contemplate that his soul would desert him. ======================= <15> =f tk(n)=f im=i hrw qsnt <15> He should be near to me on the day of pain. The first =f belongs to column 14. Then I think tk=f should be tk(n)=f - 'to be near'. <16> aHa=f m pf gs mi iri nH[pw] <16> He should stand up on that side like .......... does. nHpw - Does Hannig give a meaning for this word? It is not in Faulkner's dictionary, Lichtheim and Faulkner do not translate it, Parkinson has 'praise singer'. "...like a praise singer does" nHi - has the meaning to pray for (verb), or prayer (noun). pw - is a bit suspect. My hieratic is not all that good but I can't see a 'p' in that sign group. It is very similar to 'qn', as can be seen on p.198 of Gosline's Hieratic Paleography (even though this is Late Egyptian). qni - brave, strong, capable, dutiful. (dutiful being the likely meaning) Which leads me to think of the groups of professional singers and mourners. So I would be inclined to write that as >mi iri nH-qn< and follow Parkinson's translation (for want of a better word)... <16> aHa=f m pf gs mi iri nH-qn <16> He should stand up on that side like a praise singer does. m Htp Jenny ============================================================================== From: "Timofey" Subject: Re: AEL Disput between Man and his Ba To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 11:25:19 +0400 Hi evrybody! How do you do Jenny! >It looks like a small piece of papyrus is folded back on itself. I would >love to straighten it out, we might be able to see what the missing sign is. >And is that last sign really an 'f', it looks too vertical. We need professional to ask it. <9> [.......f] m X.t=i m Snw nwH nn he is in my body as cartouche (circuit) of rope >The V1 determinative indicates it is 'net' rather than 'cartouche'. OK: *he is in my body as a net of rope* Maybe it could be: [?.iw=f] m X.t=i m Snw nwH nn >I wonder if that might be making some reference to Spell 153 of the Book of >the Dead? I dont think so. It is too far from 12 dynasty to New Kingdom (time of appearance and using of the Book of the Dead. Respect to ALL AELiers. Timofey ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba (8-9) Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 14:42:25 +1000 Hi All, Timofey wrote: > It is too far from 12 dynasty to New Kingdom (time of appearance and using of the Book of the Dead.< Oops. Yes, I forgot about the dates. But a similar spell can be found in the Middle Kingdom Coffin Texts (Spell 473). It may go back to the Pyramid Texts, but I haven't found it there yet. "...you may trap those who are all over the land, but you shall not catch me in your nets in which you catch the dead..." (473) I may be groping in the dark here but this spell came to mind so I thought it was worth considering. Anyone else have thoughts on the subject? <8> ............. nn a[_m=f] <8> ............. He shall not ..... <9> [......=f] m X.t=i m Snw nwH nn <9> [his ......] from my body with a net of rope. Perhaps something like: "He shall not extract himself from my body with a net of rope." Looking through Faulkner's dictionary, there is 'axm - extinguish, destroy', though it has a different determinative, but perhaps not impossible. There's another possibility that it is an 'A' rather than an 'm'. Perhaps 'awA - to steal', though the wA (V4) sign is dubious in hieratic. Or 'aDA - guilty', the hieratic for DA (U28) is a little more convincing. But still nothing conclusive. m Htp Jenny ============================================================================== From: "Timofey" Subject: Re: AEL Grammar Dispute between a Man and his Ba (8-9) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: Wed, 12 May 2004 19:02:59 +0400 How do you do Jenny! Hi everybody! ><12> n=f Hr stA=i r mt n iit.(i) n=f ><12> to him; dragging me toward death before I had come to it, >n iit.(i) >Gardiner 402 - "This construction is particularly common as a virtual adverb This translation sounds good, but... m(w)t *death* is the feminine noun I mean if it were 'before, I had come to IT (death)' it would be 'r m(w).t n iit.(=i) n=*s*' Scribal error? I don't think so, in line <19> we can see 'r mt n ii.t=*i* n=f' 'to the death, I have not come to him yet.' Another note: >clause with the meaning 'before he has (had)....' Iahmose: iw=i m Sri n ir.t=i Hm.t=i I was a lad; I had not done my wife yet. (I was not married) If we always will translate it as 'before he has (had)....' we would get meaning of this sentence as: I was a lad before I had not done my wife. Can anyone explain to me sense of this translation? Sense could be, if there was no *n* negation in this clause. But *n* is there. (Look: my soul) is bringing me to death: I have not come to him yet. Maybe it could be: n=f Hr stA=i r mt n iit.(=s) n=f (Look: my soul) is bringing me to death: It has not come to him yet. Him = my soul = I. Then: It has not come to him (to me) yet sr=sn Da n ii.t(=f) Here again suffix *=f* is omitted! nSny n xpr.t=f Allen, Gardiner followers can translate: 'They could predict a tempest before it has come, a storm before it has happened.' There is another translation: 'They said: tempest would not come yet, storm would not happen yet. Here we can see future in the past. Can anybody explain and proof me using *f* instead of *s*? We must be objective. Respect to all Tima ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 12:07:20 +0100 From: fh226@cam.ac.uk To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Grammar Dispute between a Man and his Ba (8-9) --On 12 May 2004 19:02 +0400 Timofey wrote: > m(w)t *death* is the feminine noun > > I mean if it were 'before, I had come to IT (death)' it > would be 'r m(w).t n iit.(=i) n=*s*' The noun mwt "death" is in fact a rare example of a masculine noun with a ".t" ending. So no scribal error - the =f suffix does refer to death. Cf. coptic MOY which is also masculine. Fredrik Hagen Christ's College University of Cambridge ============================================================================== Subject: Re: AEL Grammar Dispute between a Man and his Ba (11-22) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: S_Comee@jpf.go.jp Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 17:14:11 +0900 I would like to thank Jenny and Timofey for their hard work (!!!) and also try my hand at the next section. <11> m=tn bA=i Hr th.t=i n sDm.n=i <12> n=f Look, my soul is misleading me, [but] I do not listen to him (i.e. soul); # Hr + Infinitive = present (in English, translated by a progressive) tense. # n sDm.n=i = the negative sDm=f (neg. present tense) <12> Hr sTA=i r m(w)t n ii.t(=i) n=f (my soul) is dragging me toward death, [but] I will not go to him yet; # n ii.t(=i) = I hate to disagree with Gardiner, but couldn't this be the negative sDm.t=f (past tense) form, which takes on a future meaning in the past? This is the ancestor of the "not yet" (empatefsOtem) negative completive tense in Coptic. # Concerning this section, Erman translated it as: indem [ich] nicht zu ihm komme, which would mean something like "by [my] not coming to him," or "while [I] do not come to him"). # But I like Timofey's idea that the "correct" reading might be *n ii.t[=s] n=f* "It (= death [f.]) has not come to him yet." <13> Hr xAa(=i) Hr x.t r smA.t=i (my soul) is casting me upon fire in order to burn me! <14> [....tt...mnt=f.........sA..........] # There is not enough left of this line to facilitate translation. <15> =f tk[n]=f im=i hrw qsn It (i.e., my soul) shall be near me on the day of pain. # The *=f* must belong to end of the preceding line. Although I can only read the first word of the line as *tk*, I can find the verb *tk* nowhere. Going by Lichtheim and Parkinson's translations, I agree with Jenny that the verb must be *tk[n]*, to be near. <16> aHa=f m pf gs mi ir nHp.w It shall stand on that side (="by my side"?), like those who [sing] praise do. # Although I like Jenny's idea concerning this line, I see no need to go that way, as I found a verb in the Beinlich list, nHp = to praise; could this be a participle used as a plural noun here--"those who praise"? I should add, however, that I am not too adept at reading Hieratic, so she might be right. # Erman wonders if the word might be related to the Coptic *ne2pe* (where 2 is the h named *hori*), which means "to wail, mourn." If he is right, could these be the professional mourners who wailed in the funeral procession? He also postulates that the final A1 glyph is not a determinative but the 1st pers. sing. pronoun, which would mean then the final w is not a plural marker. In that case, the phrase would be: "like my mourner does." This makes sense, as the *he* in the next line could then be the "mourner." <17> pA is pw prr in=f sw r=f Such is he (= mourner?) who shall go forth, as he brings himself to him (= bA?). # Note the germination of pr(i), which indicates a Prospective (translated as future). bA<18>=i wxA r sdH Ah Hr anx O, my Soul, foolish in order to ease the misery due to life, ihm<19> wi r m[w]t n ii.t=i n=f snDm restrains me for death, [though] I will not go to him yet. Sweeten # As above, the second clause could be "It (= death [f.]) has not come to him yet." <20> n=i imnt in-iw qsn pw pXr.t <21> pw anh the West for me. Is that difficult? Life <21> is a passage, iw xt.w xr=sn xnd r=k and trees fall. Tread, then, # I am reading r=k to be an enclitic particle like r=f, and am translating here as "then." <22> Hr isf.t wAH mAir=i upon evil, and set aside my misery! m Htp, Stephen ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 20:13:44 -0400 From: kate.jones@utoronto.ca To: AEL Subject: AEL BM 1367 Hi this is kindof off topic, but does anyone know if the stela of Wepwawet-hetep (BM 1367) has been translated anywhere? Thanks Kate ============================================================================== From: "Rabal" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Help with cartouche Date: Thu, 13 May 2004 18:41:38 -0300 Dear List I am trying to identify a cartouche that does not appear in the Kings lists I could find. It is written: E34 N35 F35 B1 Somebody can give an indication? Thanks H=E9ctor ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 17:32:00 +0200 From: "Doc(Ent)" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Help with cartouche > It is written: > > E34 N35 F35 B1 > > Somebody can give an indication? There must be A40 instead of B1. The name, then, means wn-nfr, i.e Wennefer (Wenennefer, if there's double N35) - He Who's Always Perfect, The Perfect One. It was one of the names, or rather an appelation, of Osiris, and a quite popular name back then :-) I haven't found a king by that name, but you can "google" for it and you'll find a lot of reference to it. -- Zbigniew Szczudlik doc73@NOSPAMpoczta.fm ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 06:21:12 -0400 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: steve whittet Subject: Re: AEL Help with cartouche At 06:41 PM 05/13/2004 -0300, you wrote: > >Dear List >I am trying to identify a cartouche that does not appear in the Kings lists >I could find. >It is written: > >E34 N35 F35 B1 > >Somebody can give an indication? >Thanks > >H=E9ctor You might be looking for a female descendent of Horwennefer. "Although no wives are known for him he had at least one son". "Horwennefer1, king of Egypt in Upper Egypt, date of birth unknown, parentage unknown2, took the throne in Thebes between 1 Thoth = 13 October and 29 Thoth = 10 November year 18 of Ptolemy IV = 2053, probably changed nomen4 between 1 Payni year 6 = 9 July 199 and 30 Thoth year 7 = 10 November 1995, to Ankhwennefer6, lost Thebes to the forces of Ptolemy V in Phaophi year 7 = 11 November - 10 December 199 or Hathyr year 7 = 10 December 199 - 8 January 1987, driven out of the Thebaid between Epeiph year 14 = 6 August - 4 September 191 and Mesore year 15 = 5 September - 4 October 1908, finally defeated on the southern edge of the Thebaid and captured by Comanos 23 Epeiph year 19 of Ptolemy V = 27 August 1869, pardoned on 3 Mesore year 19 = 6 September 18610, his subsequent fate is unknown. Horwennefer/Ankhwennefer's titles as king of Egypt were11: Horus Two Ladies Golden Horus Throne Name Son of Re (1) @r-wn-nfr mr-Js.t mr-Jmn-Ra-nsw-ntr.w pA ntr aA12 (2) anx-wn-nfr mr-Js.t mr-Jmn-Ra-nsw-ntr.w pA ntr aA13 [11] See P. W. Pestman in S. P. Vleeming (ed.) Hundred-Gated Thebes, 101, 125ff. Graffito pRecueil 11 calls Horwennefer "beloved of Isis and Osiris" -- mr-Js.t jrm Wsjr. J. von Beckerath, Handbuch der =E4gyptischen K=F6nigsnamen (2nd edition) 246 (a) gives only @r-wn-nfr for Horwennefer and 246 (b) gives only anx-wn-nfr for Ankhwennefer. " http://www.geocities.com/christopherjbennett/ptolemies/horwennefer.htm regards, steve ============================================================================== From: "A.P.de Visser" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Help with cartouche Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 10:11:38 +0200 It is the name < Wennofer>, which is another name for , as figures a.o. in the Creationmyths and in The Books of the Dead. Kind regards Bram de Visser ============================================================================== From: "Brian Yare" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Help with cartouche Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 08:38:41 +0100 << I am trying to identify a cartouche that does not appear in the Kings lists I could find. It is written: E34 N35 F35 B1 Somebody can give an indication? >> Can you supply a picture of this cartouche, as it is possible that the conversion to Gardiner codes incorporates an error. The first two signs would suggest Unis of the 5th Dynasty, and the alternative is that this is not a royal cartouche. Brian Yare ============================================================================== Subject: Re: AEL Help with cartouche To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: S_Comee@jpf.go.jp Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 16:17:53 +0900 Hector, Your name E34 N35 F35 B1 -- would be wn - n - nfr - female determinative. But *Wennefer* is the name, and it is a man, so probably the determinative is not B1 but A40. For your reference, the most famous Wennefer was perhaps the High Priest of Osiris at Abydos, during the reign of Ramesses II. m Htp, Stephen ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 08:51:23 -0800 (GMT-08:00) From: Imnrnnre To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Meditation and AE Religion Greetings All, Has anyone run across any inscriptions indicating that the Ancient Egyptians practiced meditation -- aside from the definitions found in Budge's dictionary? If so, I would appreciate any indicators (enigmatic or otherwise) you can provide. Sincerely, Raymond Davis ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba (sDmt=f) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 14:21:02 +1000 Stephen Comee wrote: > <12> Hr sTA=i r m(w)t n ii.t(=i) n=f (my soul) is dragging me toward death, [but] I will not go to him yet; # n ii.t(=i) = I hate to disagree with Gardiner, but couldn't this be the negative sDm.t=f (past tense) form, which takes on a future meaning in the past?< On the web is a pdf file www.ub.rug.nl/eldoc/dis/arts/ l.m.j.zonhoven/titlecon.pdf >STUDIES ON THE sDm.t=f VERB FORM IN CLASSICAL EGYPTIAN by L.M.J. Zonhoven 1997. CHAPTER III. THE ACTIVE n sDm.t=f CONSTRUCTION >In the following discussion of examples of the use of n sDm.t=f in relation to the three possible reference times I shall consistently use the conjunction "before" + affirmative clause as the translation of the construction. This strategy only serves the purpose of establishing that n sDm.t=f in that translation can be interpreted in terms of relative future time reference. >The absolute present can also function as the reference time for n sDm.t=f. Dispute of a Man with his Ba, 11-12. n sDm.n=i n=f Hr sTA=i r m(w)t n iy.t=(i) /=F8(?)n=f "I do not listen to him whilst dragging me to death, before I have come to it". >Dispute of a Man with his Ba, 18-19. ihm wi r m(w)t n iy.t=i n=f "restrain me from dying, before I have come to it". < And a quick note about what I wrote a couple of days ago: >So I would be inclined to write that as >mi iri nH-qn< and follow Parkinson's translation (for want of a better word)... <16> aHa=f m pf gs mi iri nH-qn <16> He should stand up on that side like a praise singer does.< Praise singer sounds a little clumsy. Perhaps eulogist would be better, (eu = good, logos = words). One who sings/speaks good words of the dead. Or if the final A1 is the suffix pronoun, (as Erman says, thanks Steven), that would read "like my eulogist does".(or 'will'?) Stephen: > I found a verb in the Beinlich list, nHp = to praise; could this be a participle used as a plural noun here--"those who praise"?> Does the Beinlich give a source for 'nHp'? m Htp Jenny ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL Dispute between a Man and his Ba (sDmt=f) Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 14:28:20 +1000 That URL I sent was just the introduction. For all pages see http://www.ub.rug.nl/eldoc/dis/arts/l.m.j.zonhoven/ Jenny ============================================================================== From: "Rabal" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Re: Re:Help with cartouche Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 10:37:24 -0300 Dear List I wish to thank all persons that helped me with the cartouche. As many comments suggested that the last symbol was A40 instead of B1 I tried to look into the details. It lacks the beard that Gardiner says is distinctive of A40. Besides, the hair tail or braid is different of the one in Gardiner's B1. I could not yet see the MdC. If someone is interested I can send privately a copy of the picture. Thanks again H=E9ctor ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 11:48:13 +0200 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Help with cartouche From: rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr It's, as a number of people said, a name of Osiris. During the lake period, mostly, Osiris was often mentionned as king in religious inscriptions, and given a titelature. At the following address : http://www.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/isistitle.jpg a picture taken in the sanctuary of Kalabcha's temple, you can find the name of Isis and Osiris in cartouches. (The text is a roman period text, and the mouth-sign after mAa, in the name wn-nfr-mAa-xrw is of course used for writing xrw, "voice", and not "r", as usual). Note also that Isis is mentionned both as *king* and as great royal spouse. Another famous example of royal titelature given to Osiris is from "The contending of Horus and Seth", a Late Egyptian tale. Regards, S. Rosmorduc ============================================================================== From: "Timofey" Subject: Re: AEL Disput between Man and his Ba To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 15:33:07 +0400 Hi Everybody! How do you do Jenny! I think it is most difficult part of text for translation and understanding. <15>=f tk[n]=f im=i hrw qsn <16> aHa=f (he) It (i.e., my soul) is near to me. (I think, full stop here). It is the day of pain that stand up <16> m pf gs mi ir nHpw on side of that one [over there] according to how singer of prayers does. # pf(A) FOLLOW the noun it belong to, *m* isn't noun, so pf(A) is separate noun with the meaning 'that one/that thing' <17> pA is pw prr ini=f sw r=f because this (one) [here with me] is (one) who is going out, he bring himself against him (the day of pain ?). Stephen wrote: # Note the germination of pr(i), which indicates a Prospective (translated as future). Neither 'prospective' nor 'subjunctive' of 2-gem verbs shows geminating. It is could only be so-called Active Imperfective participle. bA <18>=i wxA(.w) r sdH Ah(w) Hr anx My soul is one who is acting stupidly in order to ease the misery upon (in) life. ihm <19> wi r m(w)t n ii.t=i n=f snDm <20> n=i imn.t restrains me from death - I will not come to him yet (because) the West gives to me pleasure. (or makes me happy) in-iw qsn pw pXr.t <21> pw anh Is life a difficult [thing]? Is life a passage (transitory state)? or 'Really life is a difficult thing? Really life is a passage?' # I think that *in-iw* refer to both noun and *anx* too. Like *m=tn bA=i* refer to Hr *sTA=i* and *Hr xAa(=i)* I think that our scribe was very lazy boy, even hard consonant *n* in word *tkn* isn't written. <21>iw xt.w xr=sn xnd r=k It is trees that have been fallen. Tread, you! # I am reading r=k to be a mark of the Imperative. xr *fall* is Imperfective sDm=f I think that construction of sentence tell us about emphasis of word xt.w *trees* Using of *iw* tells us about important information. <22> Hr isf.t wAH mAir=i upon sins Respect to all Timofey ==============================================================================