Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 19:57:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Geoff Graham's Website Hello, I have imporved my website somewhat. I have added a picture of myself, a little bit of biographical information, and links to favorite sites. The Nefertum Chapel images are now smaller and easier to work with. I welcome you to come have a look. I owe many thanks to Mark Wilson, Michael Dyall-Smith, and Stephen Fryer for helping me to make this site what it is. http"//pantheon.yale.edu/~sokar/index.html Yours, Geoff Graham ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 22:49:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar p7, lines 21-6 Hi, Mark, Thanks for getting the papyrus moving again. > aHa.n Dd.n As.t "imi=k wsr m X.t=s, m rn=k pwy n.y wsr-r=f!" > > Isis said "May you not be powerful in her womb, in this your name of > 'The one more Powerful than He'"! This works. > war.in Xrd pn tp a.wy=s m Xrd n.y mH wa, > > This child rushed forth, head and arms held by her (?) You missed the preopsition. Then this child rushed out *onto* her two arms as a child of one cubit, > I'm not too sure about this one. What are verb forms? > Can someone parse this sentence for us? w`r.jn verb (suffix conjugation with .jn) Xrd subject pn demonstrative pronoun, modifying subject tp preposition (on) `.wy=s dual noun possessed by "her", object of the preposition m preposition, used for equivalence (as) Xrd noun, the thing equated with the subject n.y genitival adjective (of m., sing.) mH noun, the possessor of the noun w` specifyer = a number (one), specifying how many of noun This last term was coined by Netly Layton of Yale, for use in Coptic, but it applies nicely also to Egyptian. > Is anyone else going to have a go at the remaining lines of page 7? Well, obviously, I have read this text many times before, and know this material, but since there seem to be so few people who feel capable of attempting this, let me translate this bit, and then, PLEASE, ask questions! Why don't you also try to identify what the verb forms are, and see why I translated it as I did. If anything is not clear to you, then please say so, and we can help you to understand and learn, which is afterall the purpose of the list. So make use of it. > rwD qs.w=f, nxbt a.w.t=f and his bones were sturdy, and his limbs plated > m nbw, afn.t=f m xzbD mAa with gold, and his hair-do was of real lapis lazuli! > iai.in=sn sw, Sad(.w) XpA=f, rdi Hr ifd.y m Db.t Then they washed him, cutting his umbilical cord, placing (him) upon a couch/cushion in (the form of) a brick > aHa.n mzA.n sy msi-xn.t r=f Then Meskhenet extended herself toward him (leaned over him), and... Someone want to continue? Thanks again, Mark. Be well! Yours, Geoff sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 22:47:43 -0500 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Katherine Griffis Subject: Re: AEL Learning Hieroglyphics (WAS Re: AEL Unas...) At 10:00 AM 10/10/97 -0500, AEL wrote: >Katherine Griffis wrote: > >> >> I suggest Hoch's book for those who are wishing to learn hieroglyphics from >> the beginning because of the in-depth descriptions, exercises, and >> examples. Gardiner's _Egyptian Grammar_ book is good for learning only >> until about Chapter 15 or so, as the verb forms information is a bit >> outdated now. However, it is also understandable and has quite good >> exercises to that point. > >Probably Ms. Griffis has not had occasion to refer to the comprehensive >sign list at the back of Gardiner's "Grammar" with its helpful >explanations, but there is scarcely a day goes by that I don't find it >tremendously helpful. While I was referring to the verb form lessons after Chapter 15, let me also add a comment in regards to mentioning the Gardiner's sign list which, in my familiarity, I had taken for granted. It is quite correct to mention that Gardiner's sign list which can be very useful to the novice. However, anyone referring to the list should bear in mind that there are around 5000 glyphs known in use and while the 700+ listed in Gardiner might be "tremendously helpful" to beginners, the list should not be considered to be comprehensive. In my experience, I should refer serious students of hieroglyphics to Raymond O. Faulkner's _Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian_ (Griffith Institute, 1991), its companion volume by David Shennum, called _English-Egyptian Index of Faulkner's Concise Dictionary_, and if you are able to locate it, Hannig's dictionary. For the compete compendium, there is, of course, the _Worterbuch_, which is presently undergoing upgrade work in Berlin. There is also an excellent book on __Middle Egyptian Grammar_ by Gertrude Englund, from Uppsala University in Sweden. If there are any subscribers interested in a copy of this book, please contact me by private e-mail and I will pass on contact information. Regards -- Katherine Griffis-Greenberg American Research Center in Egypt International Association of Egyptologists University of Alabama at Birmingham Special Studies ftp://newton.newton.cam.ac.uk/pub/ancient/egypt/email.addresses.txt ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 10:50:40 -0500 From: Saida To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Learning Hieroglyphics (WAS Re: AEL Unas...) Katherine Griffis wrote: > > In my experience, I should refer serious students of hieroglyphics to > Raymond O. Faulkner's _Concise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian_ (Griffith > Institute, 1991), its companion volume by David Shennum, called > _English-Egyptian Index of Faulkner's Concise Dictionary_, and if you are > able to locate it, Hannig's dictionary. For the compete compendium, there > is, of course, the _Worterbuch_, which is presently undergoing upgrade work > in Berlin. There is also an excellent book on __Middle Egyptian Grammar_ > by Gertrude Englund, from Uppsala University in Sweden. If there are any > subscribers interested in a copy of this book, please contact me by private > e-mail and I will pass on contact information. Dear Professor Griffis, Thanks for pointing all this out. I would only hope, that in the future, you will break your long silence on the list regarding the translations and interpretations of the texts with which you are so familiar and offer us struggling (but persevering) novices the benefit of your expertise. Geoff Graham, too, would appreciate the input of another philologist like yourself, I'm sure, as he has good-naturedly shouldered the burden for so long with only occasional help. As someone whose hobby is Egyptian philology, I would be interested to know what courses you are currently teaching. I suppose I must admit to being surprised that the University of Birmingham had a department of Near Eastern Studies, much less in Egyptian philology! When was this inaugurated? Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:52:29 +1000 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List , Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Matt Underwood Subject: Re: AEL Learning Hieroglyphics (WAS Re: AEL Unas...) At 10:47 PM 12/10/97 -0500, Katherine Griffis wrote: >At 10:00 AM 10/10/97 -0500, AEL wrote: > >>Katherine Griffis wrote: >> >>> >>> I suggest Hoch's book for those who are wishing to learn hieroglyphics from >>> the beginning because of the in-depth descriptions, exercises, and >>> examples. Gardiner's _Egyptian Grammar_ book is good for learning only >>> until about Chapter 15 or so, as the verb forms information is a bit >>> outdated now. However, it is also understandable and has quite good >>> exercises to that point. >> Well, I have resisted replying to this, especially as Katherine's comment was offered to beginners, but no-one else has rallied to Gardiner's defense so it should be said that Gardiner's Grammar, post Chpt 15 is still well regarded technically by many even if its not really a tutorial from then on. Obviously the failure to accept Polotsky's second tense is a problem with Gardiner and his students, but that does not negate the value of the rest of this substantial work. The wheel is turning on the post-Polotskyan school too under the influence of Mark Collier. There are still some who think a verb is verb and and an adverb(ial) is not a noun. Since Katherine mentions James Hoch's grammar (which I have not yet had the pleasure to read, unfortunately), I recall Dr. Hoch's criticism of Gardiner's Grammar in the ANE list about the time he first published his own work - something about "Victorian English" or the like (or was it "Edwardian" - whatever). Really Gardiner's English is very excellent and as a philologist he truly has not been surpassed by any living scholar (IMHO). regards Matt Underwood Macquarie Uni Matt Underwood Macquarie Uni, munderwo@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:47:39 +0200 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Westcar p7, lines 21-6 Mark Wilson writes: > war.in Xrd pn tp a.wy=s m Xrd n.y mH wa, > > This child rushed forth, head and arms held by her (?) > > I'm not too sure about this one. What are verb forms? > Can someone parse this sentence for us? Here 'tp' means 'on', so it reads 'in her arms'. war.in is a narrative sDm.in=f. Some teachers of mine have made the hypothesis that there could exist "nominal" sDm.in=f in the likeness of sDm.n=f. Comments ? -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) 66, rue Alexandre Dumas 75011 Paris tel 01 48 70 37 09 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 11:06:26 +0200 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Westcar p7, lines 21-6 Graham writes: > > > iai.in=sn sw, Sad(.w) XpA=f, rdi Hr ifd.y m Db.t > > Then they washed him, cutting his umbilical cord, placing (him) upon a > couch/cushion in (the form of) a brick I think this is an grammatically interesting part. In a number of cases 'sDm.w=f' seems to be used as a "continuative" tense in narration. (Gardiner makes a short remark on it in his grammar). Typically, you find sentence like that : "stp.n=i sw, stpw X, stpw Y,..." I chosed him, X being chosed, Y being chosed,... which seems to mean I chosed him, and chosed X, and chosed Y... So, a more natural translation for the passage would be: They washed him, cut his umbilical cord, and placed him on a couch made of a brick (is the ritual couch a real brick, or is it brick shaped ?) regards, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) 66, rue Alexandre Dumas 75011 Paris tel 01 48 70 37 09 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== From: Anthony Conley To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: AEL onomasticon Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:07:55 -0400 I ran across a reference to Alan Gardiner's book called "Onomasticon". Can someone explain to me what this contains? Anthony Conley CADIEAC aconley@asaenet.org ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:55:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Beginning Egyptian Textbooks Hi, I am surpised that the textbook issue has been so controversial on this list. However, I guess I understand the situation is a little difficult, since Gardiner's excellent and thorough grammar has not been adequately updated, and no new grammars can quite compare with it in usefulness as a reference opus. However, be that as it may. Hoch's textbook is the best teaching grammar to have come out in recent years, and many universities are now using it for the beginning Egyptian classes (Chicago and Yale, to name a few). If one wishes to continue further than the basics in Middle Egyptian, one actually needs to own Gardiner, but be aware that much water has flown under the bridge of grammatical interpretation of the verbal system since his time. Hoch's book should be consulted for the workings of the verbal system, and Gardiner's for its many examples and other attention to detail which can hardly be found anywhere else. As for Polotsky's interpretation of the Egyptian verbal system, there has been some turn around in exactly how his theories ought to be applied. While the field owes a great debt to him for pointing out some important features of the verbal moods, the techical aspects of exactly HOW the grammar operates, are under revision. Polotsky was the one who pointed out the emphasizing forms of verbs. I think most Egyptologists pretty well agree on how these forms are to be translated, but they often disagree on exactly how these forms functioned grammatically. This issue is mostly one of English grammatical terminology, and has little bearing on how one translates. Therefore, I think the objections raised by the two camps (the Standard Theorists and the Not-So-Standard Theorists), are superfluous to a beginner's grasp of the material, and maybe also superfluous to an expert's understanding as well, unless that person is particularly concerned with the minutiae of grammatical theory, which are in essense outside the needs of the average Egyptologist anyway. As for Gardiner's sign list, it is a wonderful tool, and has yet to be improved upon. The fact that not all of the signs of the Egyptian language are included in it, is not such a terrific problem. He has basically included the signs which were in common use during the phase of Middle Egyptian. The myriad other signs which exist are generally either from the Old Egyptian Pyramid Texts or the Ptolemaic temple inscriptions, and most of these are only determinatives. If one is interested in these other phases of the language, various other sign list are available which give their values. If a student is interested in reading monumental inscriptions from the First Intemediate Period through the New Kingdom, Gardiner's sign list is entirely adequate. I think that the problem encountered in the answering of the original question on this list, is exactly how each person defines what is useful and necessary. Hoch's grammar is definitely the place for a beginner to start, but Gardiner and various other resources will become necessary as people reach the intermediate and advanced stages of their studies. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 19:03:06 +0000 Subject: AEL Aton hymn / Bibliotheca Aegyptiaca ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:39:33 -0600 To: weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk From: barke002@maroon.tc.umn.edu (M. A. R. Barker) Dear Serge, Pardon me for bothering you. I would like to know the title of the Grandet version of the Aton hymn. Sometimes titles do not reflect the contents accurately. Also, I believe that the Bibliotheca Aegyptiaca edition is reported as completely out of print. It cannot even be found at antiquarian bookstores! With regards, Professor M. A. R. Barker ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 16:11:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL onomasticon Hi, Anthony, > I ran across a reference to Alan Gardiner's book called "Onomasticon". > Can someone explain to me what this contains? An onomosticon is an ancient dictionary. It does not give definitions of words, and is not arranged alphabetically. It is a kind of list of the proper spellings of words, and they are grouped according to categories, moving from the gods down to the world, down through the kinds of people, the animals, the fish, the plants, the minerals, etc... Some of these lists are preserved, and are very interesting to study. That is what an onomosticon is. I think Gardiner worked on an onomosticon of New Kingdom date, probably from Deir el-Medina, but of this I am not entirely certain at the moment. It is probably something I should have alook at one of these days in all my *spare* time. ;-P Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 17:19:27 -0400 () From: Robyn Adams Gillam To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL onomasticon An onomasticon is a list of words in categories reflecting the known world and is found in a variety of traditional cultures (the words are generally nouns). This work of Gardiner is primarily a publication of the Onomasticon of Amenemope which dates from the 21st Dyn. (c. 10th cent. BCE). Of itself it is interesting but Gardiner's extensive commentary makes its an invaluable resource on titles, place names, cults and the like. The full title is *Ancient Egyptian Onomastica* (3 vols. published at Oxford, not sure of the year) Robyn Gillam Classical Studies York University Toronto, Canada On Tue, 14 Oct 1997, Anthony Conley wrote: > Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 10:07:55 -0400 > From: Anthony Conley > Reply-To: Ancient Egyptian Language List > To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' > Subject: AEL onomasticon > > I ran across a reference to Alan Gardiner's book called "Onomasticon". > Can someone explain to me what this contains? > > Anthony Conley > CADIEAC > aconley@asaenet.org > ============================================================================== From: Sid Kitchel Subject: Re: AEL Learning Hieroglyphics (WAS Re: AEL Unas...) To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 14:29:48 -0700 (PDT) Matt Underwood wrote: |-> |-> At 10:47 PM 12/10/97 -0500, Katherine Griffis wrote: |-> >At 10:00 AM 10/10/97 -0500, AEL wrote: |-> > |-> >>Katherine Griffis wrote: |-> >> |-> >>> |-> >>> I suggest Hoch's book for those who are wishing to learn hieroglyphics |-> from |-> >>> the beginning because of the in-depth descriptions, exercises, and |-> >>> examples. Gardiner's _Egyptian Grammar_ book is good for learning only |-> >>> until about Chapter 15 or so, as the verb forms information is a bit |-> >>> outdated now. However, it is also understandable and has quite good |-> >>> exercises to that point. |-> >> |-> |-> Well, I have resisted replying to this, especially as Katherine's comment |-> was offered to beginners, but no-one else has rallied to Gardiner's defense |-> so it should be said that Gardiner's Grammar, post Chpt 15 is still well |-> regarded technically by many even if its not really a tutorial from then |-> on. Obviously the failure to accept Polotsky's second tense is a problem |-> with Gardiner and his students, but that does not negate the value of the |-> rest of this substantial work. The wheel is turning on the post-Polotskyan |-> school too under the influence of Mark Collier. There are still some who |-> think a verb is verb and and an adverb(ial) is not a noun. |-> |-> Since Katherine mentions James Hoch's grammar (which I have not yet had the |-> pleasure to read, unfortunately), I recall Dr. Hoch's criticism of |-> Gardiner's Grammar in the ANE list about the time he first published his |-> own work - something about "Victorian English" or the like (or was it |-> "Edwardian" - whatever). Really Gardiner's English is very excellent and as |-> a philologist he truly has not been surpassed by any living scholar (IMHO). I don't think that Hoch is challenging Gardiner's scholarship, but rather the utility of his large grammar. Having Hoch's book to hand, I will quote a segment of its preface: "Gardiner's grammar was, of course, daunting to beginning students, and while his decision to cite only genuine texts rendered his work more accurate than even his own knowledge of the language, students had a great deal of difficulty in making out the examples, since they were replete with as yet unknown forms and constructions." Hoch makes no attempt at all to alter Gardiner's sign list, but does adopt different names for certain constructions. For example, he renames Gardiner's "virtual" constructions and updates older usages such as "direct genitive" and "old perfective". However, I don't think Hoch or any sensible scholar would want to do away with Gardiner. --Sid -- Sid Kitchel__________________________________________Informix Software, Inc. Email: kitchel@informix.com Suite 670 Voice: 503-721-2369 921 SW Washington St. FAX: 503-221-2633 Portland, OR 97205 ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 13:12:50 -0400 From: James_Hoch@mail.campuslife.utoronto.ca (James Hoch) Subject: AEL Re(2): AEL Westcar p7, lines 21-6 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk > > > iai.in=sn sw, Sad(.w) XpA=f, rdi Hr ifd.y m Db.t > > Then they washed him, cutting his umbilical cord, placing (him) upon a > couch/cushion in (the form of) a brick Serge: I think this is an grammatically interesting part. In a number of cases 'sDm.w=f' seems to be used as a "continuative" tense in narration. James: Sad(w) XpA.f: Hang on a second. Let's try the normal grammatical patterns here before considering the less common possibilities... Also, think of the natural order of events. (O.k., so maybe I have more experience in assisting childbirth than some of you, but there is a logical order here.) I'll give you all 1 - 1 1/2 day's notice on this one, then I will propose an answser, if none are forthcoming. James Hoch -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- CampusLife - University of Toronto http://www.campuslife.utoronto.ca ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 21:23:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Re(2): AEL Westcar p7, lines 21-6 Hi, James, Long time no see. > > > iai.in=sn sw, Sad(.w) XpA=f, rdi Hr ifd.y m Db.t > > > > Then they washed him, cutting his umbilical cord, placing (him) upon a > > couch/cushion in (the form of) a brick {snip already seen} > James: > Sad(w) XpA.f: Hang on a second. Let's try the normal grammatical patterns > here before considering the less common possibilities... > > Also, think of the natural order of events. (O.k., so maybe I have more > experience in assisting childbirth than some of you, but there is a logical > order here.) Isn't this just a participle, the endings just not being written because they would be vocalic? I mean that S`d(.w) and rdj(.w) would be "cutting" and "placing" modifying the subject of the verb, which is third person plural. When we first read this text, my instructor insisted that S`d was a sDm.w=f passive, meaning that his umbilical cord "was cut", however, the participial option seemed more attractive to me, especially since rdj, which seems like it should be the same form, does not have a grammatical subject that could be "placed". You have to admit that the line does seem a bit ambiguous to our sensibilities, though clearly the Egyptians had no such problems with it, otherwise they would not have repeated it three times in this text! Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:47:26 +1000 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List , "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" From: Matt Underwood Subject: Re: AEL onomasticon At 10:07 AM 14/10/97 -0400, Anthony Conley wrote: >I ran across a reference to Alan Gardiner's book called "Onomasticon". >Can someone explain to me what this contains? > >Anthony Conley >CADIEAC >aconley@asaenet.org > Citation is: A. H. Gardiner, Ancient Egyptian Onomastica (Oxford, 1947. Matt Underwood Macquarie Uni, munderwo@laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 06:03:00 -0400 From: James_Hoch@mail.campuslife.utoronto.ca (James Hoch) Subject: AEL Re(2): AEL Re(2): AEL Westcar p7, lines 21-6 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Hello, Just checked a couple of the standard translations--and they are not quite accurate--although they do get the gist into passable English. You can do better! (At least in explaining the grammar.) If Sad(w) were the participle (which would have to be feminine plural), it would have to be either a modifier of a noun "who cut his umbilical cord" or stand as a noun "the cutters of...". Neither works in this sentence. Basic syntax (word order) points to the solution: verb=noun. Try the simplest option for a "verb=noun situtation"--as one of my students used to call it. This would be the form that Geoff's instructor said. The meaning, however, would not be: "The umbilical cord was cut"--at least not as an independent statement. The second modifying clause, rdi(w) Hr ifdy n(y) Dbt, has: VERB (ZERO SUBJECT) ADVERBIAL (location). Here rdi(w) cannot be a participle, which would have to be feminine plural, and would have to somehow tie into the sentence either as an adjectival modifier ("who placed") or as a noun ("the placers"). The two modifying clauses (circumstantial clauses) are based on two very different (but *grammatically* interchangeable) patterns. The former is quite time specific, the latter is not. (Vague time reference is general feature of the latter pattern [used as a circumstantial clause], and not just something that happens to fit this passage.) Best wishes, James -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- CampusLife - University of Toronto http://www.campuslife.utoronto.ca ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:37:14 +0100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Tom Hare Subject: Re: AEL onomasticon >Hi, Anthony, > >> I ran across a reference to Alan Gardiner's book called "Onomasticon". >> Can someone explain to me what this contains? > As Geoff and others explain, an onomasticon is a kind of ancient dictionary. Gardiner's is a translation and study of two fragmentary onomastica, as I recall, from the New Kingdom or 3rd IP. It is a wonderful book (2 vols.?) full of information in Egyptian, Gk., Hebrew, Arabic and (fortunately) English. It is not a relaxing fireside read, but a serious work of philology and especially (because of the limited portions of the original texts which remain extant) it is most useful for geographical information. Gardiner tracks down countless Egyptian place names and identifies them with their subsequent toponymns in the other languages I mentioned. The book also provides a tantalizing, if sadly incomplete, sense of the Egyptians' constructions of knowledge. The book is autographed in Faulkner's fine hand, and is a find if you can find it. Best, Tom Hare Asian Languages/Comparative Literature Stanford University ============================================================================== From: Anthony Conley To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: AEL AEL onomasticon Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:17:20 -0400 Geoff, Robyn, Matt, Thanks for the quick and helpful responses. Is it possible that Gardiner's sign list is a direct copy of one of these onomasticons? Or did he get the idea to organize the signs the way he did from onomasticons? Anthony Conley CADIEAC ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:31:38 -0500 From: Ishinan@eosinc.com To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Budge's _ khaibit _ ( khAb-t) with or without a shadow of doubt? I am in the process of investigating the concept of _khAb-t_ (in Gardiner's Egyptian Grammar p508, xAjb.t) in Ancient Egypt. At the suggestion of Mark Wilson who invited me to submit this inquiry on this list. I would like very much to hear your opinion on the following: INTRODUCTORY BACKGROUND: A hundred years ago E. A. Wallis Budge was the keeper of Assyrian and Egyptian antiquities in the British museum. His thorough knowledge of the Ancient near east encompassed both the Semitic and Ancient Egyptian fields. It was in this unique capacity, acting as purchasing agent for the museum, that he managed to acquire in 1888 a copy of the _Egyptian Book of the Dead_. This spectacular artifact was discovered in Upper Egypt in an 18th dynasty tomb near Luxor. It was written around 1500 BC for Ani, the Royal scribe of Thebes. The Papyrus of Ani was translated and transliterated by Budge word by word. Such an endeavor ushered Budge as the world's most renowned Egyptologist. THE PROBLEM OUTLINED In the following passages, Budge deals with an elusive concept (and highly controversial aspect of Ancient Egyptian religious beliefs) known as _KhAb-t _. This term transliterated by Budge as" khaibit" occurs in funeral rites and is interpreted by him as "shadow": em khen=E0 (xen=E0) ba-=E0 sauti khaibit-=E0 (xaibit-=E0) un uat e= n ba-=E0 en khaibit-=E0 (xaibit-=E0) maa -f neter =E0a = [XCIInd Chapter of "The book of the Dead"] TRANSLATION: Let not be shut in my soul, let not be fettered my *shadow*, let be opened the way for my soul and for my *shadow*, may it see the great god, **************** maa -=E0 ba -=E0 khaibit-=E0 (xaibit-=E0) [ LXXXIXth Chapter of "The Book of the Dead"] TRANSLATION : May I look upon my soul and my *shadow*. ***************** = In the analysis of the metaphor _ khAb-t _, in Budge=92s translations above, two elements have to be distinguished: The tenor of the metaphor and its vehicle. Or simply put, the underlying idea of the metaphor "khaibit" and its relation to the image of a "shadow" respectively. = When the metaphor is applied, we realize that it cannot be reduced to a literal paraphrase, as the two thoughts "khaibit" and "shadow" render their meanings by interaction, not by substitution. However, the effect of this metaphor forces us to combine the two thoughts in order to discover the similarity between them. Thus when it comes to "khAb-t" and "Shadow, as portrayed by Budge above, we should ask ourselves the following pertinent question: "What were the common characteristics between "khAb-t" and "shadow" present in Budge=92s mind when he translated these passages from _The Boo= k of the Dead_? A partial answer to this query is provided by Budge himself on page lxvi in his explanation of _KhAb-t_, as "shadow" (represented by the "umbrella" glyph ) BUDGE'S COMMENTS AND CLARIFICATIONS "In connection with the "ka"{ the equivalent of the Coptic _Kw_; genius and mental attributions;} and "ba" { the soul } must be mentioned the _ khaibit_ or shadow of the man, which Egyptians regard as a part of the human economy. It may be compared with the _skia_ and the _ umbra_ of the Greeks and Romans { "Nam etsi ambulavero in medio umbre mortis..." and that "umbre mortis" means literally "shadow of death, a phrase familiar from Ps.23."}. It was supposed to have an entirely independent existence and to be able to separate itself from the body; it was free to move wherever it pleased, and like " ka" and "ba", it partook of the funeral offerings in the tomb, which it visited at will. The mention of the *shade*, whether of a god or a man, in the pyramid texts is *infrequent*, and it is not easy to ascertain what views were held concerning it; but from the passage in the text of Unas [Recueil de Travaux, t. iv.,p. 62] ( JPEG available upon request ), where it is mentioned together with he souls and spirits and bones of the gods, it is evident that already at that early date its position in relation to man was well defined. From the collection of illustrations which Dr. Birch appended to his paper "On the Shade or Shadow of the Dead '[see Trans. Soc. Bibl. Arch., vol. viii., p. 386-97 ], it is quite clear that in later times at least the shadow was always associated with the soul and was believed to be always near it; and this view is supported by a passage in the XCIInd Chapter of the book of the Dead." (quotation prefaced in this article above) = ************* * {The asterisks and notes between parenthesis are mine and are used for emphasis, square brackets are Budge's footnotes. Otherwise, the quotation is verbatim reproduced here from "The Book of the Dead" by Budge. p. lxvii. JPEGs available upon request} In the preceding message, I tried to outline Budge's interpretation of _khAb-t_ as "shadow", as well as his reasoning. However, I would be interested in your input and why you might think Budge is correct. Can any of you come up with a rational explanation of _khAb-t_(khaibit) Your opinions on this subject are very much appreciated. Best regards = Ishinan ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 17:29:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL AEL onomasticon Hi, Anthony, > Is it possible that Gardiner's sign list is a direct copy of one of > these onomasticons? Or did he get the idea to organize the signs the > way he did from onomasticons? No, lists of signs have been organized in similar fashion in Egyptology for many years now. Theinhard's list was like it, as well as Budge's, and so is the IFAO font, and Moeller's Hieratic Paleography. I think that, since they do not all have phonetic values, and presumably people would not be looking them up if they already knew what they were, people have organized them by significant categories, so as to make them easier to locate, though I must say, that there are times when it seems impossible to find one of them because you do not know even to what category it ought to belong. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 18:17:45 -0400 () From: Robyn Adams Gillam To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL AEL onomasticon That's a very interesting idea. Gardiner did publish his first edition of the Grammar long before the Onomastica; however as I am typing this, it occurs to me that his arrangemnt of the sign list may be a version of earlier ones put together by the French institute in Cairo, who I think were responsible for the font used by the Annales du Service des Antiquites. I think there is an earlier sign list from such a source but I'm afraid I can't recall the details at the moment. Maybe someone else can throw more light on this. Robyn Gillam Classical Studies York University Toronto, Canada On Wed, 15 Oct 1997, Anthony Conley wrote: > Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 09:17:20 -0400 > From: Anthony Conley > Reply-To: Ancient Egyptian Language List > To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' > Subject: AEL AEL onomasticon > > Geoff, Robyn, Matt, > > Thanks for the quick and helpful responses. > > Is it possible that Gardiner's sign list is a direct copy of one of > these onomasticons? Or did he get the idea to organize the signs the > way he did from onomasticons? > > Anthony Conley > CADIEAC > ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:43:03 +0200 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL AEL onomasticon Graham writes: > Hi, Anthony, > > > Is it possible that Gardiner's sign list is a direct copy of one of > > these onomasticons? Or did he get the idea to organize the signs the > > way he did from onomasticons? > > No, lists of signs have been organized in similar fashion in Egyptology > for many years now. Theinhard's list was like it, as well as Budge's, and > so is the IFAO font, and Moeller's Hieratic Paleography. I think that, > since they do not all have phonetic values, and presumably people would ... Well, I THINK Antony may be right. The first such organisation for sign lists (apart from the list in Turin, which is an ancient egyptian equivalent) is Champollion's dictionnary, which was ordered by sign (see Budge's dictionnary introduction for this). And this dictionnary was organised along the lines of Coptic Scalaes, which are a late heir of Pharaonic onomastica. The themes chosed for classifying hieroglyphs are quite constant among the authors. regards, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) 66, rue Alexandre Dumas 75011 Paris tel 01 48 70 37 09 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:14:58 +0200 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Re(2): AEL Westcar p7, lines 21-6 James Hoch writes: > > > > > > iai.in=sn sw, Sad(.w) XpA=f, rdi Hr ifd.y m Db.t > > > James: > Sad(w) XpA.f: Hang on a second. Let's try the normal grammatical patterns > here before considering the less common possibilities... > > Also, think of the natural order of events. (O.k., so maybe I have more > experience in assisting childbirth than some of you, but there is a logical > order here.) OOoopppps ! I have drawn my grammar a bit too fast and shot myself in the foot :-) Well, let's get sane : the basic value of a sDmw=f (like Sad and rdi) is accomplished. The problem (which also appear with sDm.n=f forms), is that it can be either sequential (as a continuation of a previous past form, like my rather unlikely interpretation), or be relative (stating that the action it concern was FINISHED when the main action took place) So here : "They washed him, after cutting his umbilical cord, and putting (or put) him (or IT (= the cord ?)) on a brick." (the relation between the first two is logical indeed. I have doubts about the value of the third. It could be : sequential accomplished and in the two cases, relative to either 'ia' or 'Sad'.) regards, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) 66, rue Alexandre Dumas 75011 Paris tel 01 48 70 37 09 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 10:18:45 +0200 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Re(2): AEL Westcar p7, lines 21-6 Re-Ooops. After reading Geoff's comment. About the values of Sad and rdi : they are old perfective, or sDm=w=f with empty subject :-) regards, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) 66, rue Alexandre Dumas 75011 Paris tel 01 48 70 37 09 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 17:25:02 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL West. P7 line 23 nxbt To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: West. P7 line 23 nxbt AEL line 23: rwD qs.w=f , nxbt a.w.t=f #000# Geoff translated nxbt as a verb (?), "plate". Faulkner only gives 'titulary' for nxbt. Can someone tell me where they found the meaning of this word, and whether it is indeed a verb. I've corrected the vocabulary of the westcar web site to include this meaning. Thanks, Mike D-S. Melbourne, Australia mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:48:01 +0100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Tony Gist Subject: AEL Beginner seeks a introductory text Can anyone point me in the direction of a good introductory book to help me read Egyptian texts? I have got Sir Alan Gardiner's Egyptian Grammar which I find rather daunting. I have never been taught any of the fundamentals of grammar! So, some of the terms I find rather confusing. Any advice? -- Tony Gist ============================================================================== From: "BDTF HALLGATO" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:20:40 GMT +0200 Subject: AEL sea peoples Hello! I am a university student from Hungary majoring egyptology at the Elte University, Budapest. Still I am at the middle of my hieroglyphic studies and have just started investigating the written records od ancient Egypt. My recent project covers the relationship between the "sea people" and Egypt from certain perceptions. For this purpose I really miss some information about the presence of sea people in Egyptian written text. Apart from the inscriptions from Medinet Habu or the "Israel stela" dated back to the reign of Merneptah can anyone inform me about some written records mentioning or refering to sea peoples? I`d be very grateful for books to consult with, too... Thanks for anyone who can help me a bit. Regards: Horvath Zoltan Bdf10544.fsd.bdtf.hu ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 09:21:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West. P7 line 23 nxbt Hi, Mike, > rwD qs.w=f , nxbt a.w.t=f #000# > Geoff translated nxbt as a verb (?), "plate". Faulkner only gives 'titulary' > for nxbt. Can someone tell me where they found the meaning of this word, and > whether it is indeed a verb. I've corrected the vocabulary of the westcar web > site to include this meaning. As far as I know nxbt seems to be a hapax legomenon in this very text. I am only following the suggestions of others in taking it as some verb that means to cover with metal. Faulkner (in _The Literature of Ancient Egypt_, ed. W.K. Simpson) uses: "the covering of whose limbs was of gold". Lichtheim uses: "his limbs overlaid with gold". The Woerterbuch gives a separate entry to nxb.t meaning "titulary" and nxb.t (they point off the {t} though I do not see how one can assume that it is grammatically feminine!) found ONLY in Westcar, meaning "vom goldenen Aeussern des neugeborenen Koenigskindes" (concerning the golden exterior of the newborn royal child). Still, if Erman and Grapow, take this as a feminine, then I do not understand which grammatical construction they would like to see in the sentence, since the nfr sw construction has to be formed on the masculine form of the adjective, regardless of the gender of what follows, and a sDm=f cannot be feminine unless it is a relative form, and I see no reason to interpret this sentence as containing relatives. So, either the verb is nxb, and it is in the sDm.tw=f form, and then we might translate it as something like "his limbs were designated/called/appeared to be golden", or the verb is a quadtiliteral with a hard /t/ radical at the end, and it has a special meaning which refers to the making of objects to have a golden appearance, such as "his limbs were plated/overlaid/painted/guilded with gold". Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 02:16:06 +0900 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: potkgjim@sal.tohoku.ac.jp (POTHIER Jean-Marie) Subject: Re: AEL Beginner seeks a introductory text In french, for hierogl texts in classical egyptian GRANDET Pierre, MATTHIEU Bernard, vol. 1, ed. Kheops, Paris, then vol. 2 use up to date grammar notions and progressive lessons Also avaiable through correspondance course at Kheops Institute, 13 Rue Gracieuse, Paris At 9:48 AM 1997.10.17 +0100, Tony Gist wrote: >Can anyone point me in the direction of a good introductory book to help >me read Egyptian texts? I have got Sir Alan Gardiner's Egyptian Grammar >which I find rather daunting. I have never been taught any of the >fundamentals of grammar! So, some of the terms I find rather confusing. > >Any advice? >-- >Tony Gist ---------------------------------- 東北大学文学部仏文研究室フランス人講師 Jean-Marie POTHIER potkgjim@sal.tohoku.ac.jp ---------------------------------- ============================================================================== From: "Chad Bochan" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 20:52:33 +1000 Subject: AEL I'm with Tony! I'm in about the same position as Tony - I want to learn hieroglyphs but all our library has is Gardiner's "Egyptian Grammar". I've started working through the first few exercises, which seem fine ... have I picked the wrong starting point? I have no problem investing some money in some textbooks, I just didn't know where to begin. By the way, is trying to learn Egyptian fruitless without a teacher/tutor? Chad. ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 11:04:21 -0500 (CDT) To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Mary Jo Jackel Subject: AEL Transliteration I would like very much to see a transliteration for the Demotic section of the Decree of Canopus. Could someone tell me where to find one? Thanks, Mary Jo ============================================================================== From: piscator@nwlink.com To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Gardiner v. Hoch Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 01:30:57 GMT There is no doubt that I am a beginner when it comes to AEL. I have both Gardiner's Grammar and Hoch's text. I started with Gardiner but after about seven chapters I was absolutely intimidated by all of the examples, exceptions, once in a lifetime encounters and such not whixh I recognize must be of great interest to advanced students and scholars. Hoch, on the other hand, is much easier to digest. Just my opinion, of course. Ken Purdy ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 12:59:31 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Gardiner v. Hoch piscator@nwlink.com wrote: > > There is no doubt that I am a beginner when it comes to AEL. I have > both Gardiner's Grammar and Hoch's text. I started with Gardiner but > after about seven chapters I was absolutely intimidated by all of the > examples, exceptions, once in a lifetime encounters and such not whixh > I recognize must be of great interest to advanced students and > scholars. Hoch, on the other hand, is much easier to digest. Just > my opinion, of course. I should point out that a major difference is that Hoch's book is written as a TEACHING book - that is it is meant to be learned from. Gardiner started out to write a teaching textbook, but ended up writing a REFERENCE text - good for studying all sorts of advanced topics,and obscure points of grammar. Plus, Gardiner's concepts of how the Egyptian verb worked are, by his own admission somewhat confused. Things have become much clearer with futher reseach. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ==============================================================================