From: "Luca Brigatti" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL A beginner in learning AEL Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 23:39:32 -0600 Dear Alexander, I am a beginner much as yourself (actually more) for the same reason, self learner with way too little time to dedicate to AEL. So, for the exercises on the non verbal phrases I cannot help you. To learn the vocabulary I use two computerized hieroglyphic flashcard / personal dictionaries that I wrote myself. Also Mark Vygus (another active member of this forum) has input half of Faulkner's dictionary (about 4,000 definitions) to use with my programs. You'll find them on my webpage: http://home.rochester.rr.com/lucabri/ Give them a try Hope will help. So long Luca P.S. Do not apologize for your English, looks to me it's pretty good. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alexander Giessing" To: Sent: Saturday, January 04, 2003 4:01 AM Subject: AEL A beginner in learning AEL Dear All Since two years I have been trying to teach the ancient egyptian language myself. But I am really slow in learning AEL as I do not train regularly. Nevertheless I am able to translate all three types of non - verbal sentences.The grammar I use is "Abriss der Mittelägyptische Grundgrammatik" by Boyo G. Ockinga (in english "A Consice Grammar of Middle Egyptian") but I know the exercises already inside out. Furthermore, I thing I should do some more exercises before going on. So does anybody know of any non - verbal sentences or easy (!) reading exercises? Could you also give me an advise how to learn the ancient egyptian vocabulary? Perhaps you have a special method... . Alexander Giessing PS. I am a german pupil, so do not be chocked if you find some mistakes in my English ;-) . ============================================================================== From: "A.K. Eyma" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Purath Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 23:06:43 +0100 >>Are you suggesting Beirut? I'm having difficulty finding an ancient name for that city: "Beirut is mentioned as far back as the 15th century BC; its name appears in the Tall al'Amarinah tablets. << **Must be the Tell el-Amarna tablets, surely? Namely EA 92, 101, 114, 118, 138, 141, 142, 143, 155. Beirut appears in AE texts as syllabic _b3-rw-T-j_, i.e. Beruta = Be'eroth, Beirut. See also HWB 1332 So this is not the Purath of Budge (written very differently). Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== From: "Oscar H. Blayton" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL RE:AEL Language Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2003 13:31:32 -0200 Alain, Is there an English edition of Diop's "parenté génétique de l'égyptien pharaonique et des langues négro-africaines"? Oscar ============================================ Subject: Re: AEL RE:AEL Language ... Snip ... Hello all, Cheikh Anta Diop wrote another book "parenté génétique de l'égyptien pharaonique et des langues négro-africaines" (les nouvelles éditions africaines - Dakar - 1977), entirely dedicated to an exhaustive comparison between Ancient Aegyptian and Walaf from grammatical and lexical point of view, including an Aegyptian-Walaf dictionary with approximately 2500 entries. If somebody is interested and this book turns te be unfindable, I can scan parts of it. Alain Zimmerlin ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 22:39:48 GMT To: AEL post address Subject: AEL El Amarna IV From: Brian Yare My 2nd e-book is now available on CD-ROM. Norman de Garis's "The Rock Tombs of El Amarna, Part IV, The tombs of Penthu, Mahu and others", originally printed in London in 1906, is still the main resource for students of these tombs, and includes the main source material for the short Hymn to the Aten amongst many inscriptions. Transcribed into HTML and richly hyperlinked for easy access, this e-book sets a new standard in usability. To see a preview, and for pricing information, please visit my web-site at: http://www.yare.org/egypt where you will find a demo as well as details of my earlier e-book. Other volumes will follow over the next few months, and suggestions for improvement are welcomes. Regards Brian Yare ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: "AEL" Subject: AEL AE word for hospital? Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 19:31:09 +1100 A friend has a request regarding the names of places for medical treatment in Ancient Egypt. m Htp Jenny ----------Forwarded Message------------------------------------- Greetings, All... Would the group kindly assist me in finding the AE word/phrase for "hospital"? My initial guess of "per ankh" may have seemed logical, but is incorrect. The word or phrase could be for any aspect of AE "health care", a place where a person would go to be treated by a doctor or nurse. Then again, I am assuming people went out from their homes to be treated. Thank you for your generous help. Best regards to all... Ed ---------------------------------------End Forwarded Message---------- ============================================================================== Subject: Re: AEL Sinuhe JC-15-20 -- Reply from Stephen To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: S_Comee@jpf.go.jp Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 17:18:19 +0900 Hello, everyone! First of all, please let me wish you all a "wpt-rnpt rSwt wrt sp-sn"! Second, allow me to express my appreciation and thanks to all who made comments on and suggested corrections for mt translation. I would especially like to thank Mark-Jan Nederhof (Zeer dank u!) for all the time and energy he has spent in going over this section. I greatly appreciate it, as it offers a wonderful chance for improving my understanding of Ancient Egyptian. Now I would like to reply to some of the comments that Mark-Jan and Serge Rosmorduc (Paris) and Brigitte Goede also made. Re: R67, Serge said that "wnn is certainly a 'mrr=f' (aka 'emphatic' or 'nominal' sDm=f) see Allen,... esp. 25.8" ***Well, Serge, I looked at Allen, and I still stand by classification of the verb as an Imperfective form, which also geminates. I thank you, however, for pointing out that this Imperfective (Aorist) form is indeed being used here as what Allen (in Chap. 25) calls a "nonattributable relative form." As Allen points out, the sDm=f form itself could be read as six different forms, depending on the context and the preference of the translator; with a mutable verb, the difference between the Aorist (Imperfective) and Emphatic form is also indistinguishable. I would be VERY careful when using the word "certainly" about *ANY* Middle Egyptian verb. In this case, I believe the form here is Imperfective, but the usage is a special relative usage as dicussed by Allen in his Chap. 25. Re: B46, Serge writes that "'aq' is an old perfective," and Mark-Jan says that it is impossible for 'aq' to be Perfective. Of course, they are both right. Thank you for pointing this out! It must indeed be a subject-stative construction. I should have written "OLD Perfective"! And I like Mark-Jan's translation of the verb as "has *already* entered." Re: R48 My compliments to Mark-Jan for correctly pointing out the redundant "r" as a phonetic complement of "xpr." My apologies to him--and all of you, as well--for not being more careful in typing. The difference between sDm.n=f and sDm n=f is sometimes crucial. I will try to be more careful! ;) Re: B50, Brigitte reacted to my comment about "iw" here. To clarify it for her: According to my understanding (which may be wrong), the particle "iw" served many purposes, the main one of which was perhaps, in Middle Egyptian, to introduce sentences that are thought to be independent initial sentences. It was later used in Late Egyptian to introduce subordinate circumstantial sentences/clauses---which means that its function had completely changed. My contention here is that in SINUHE, "iw" *should* still be a marker of initiality, but there is no consensus on this, as seen by the many translations of the sentence "iw it=f ... " as a non-initial circumstantial clause. Re: B52 Mark-Jan sees "mAA=f" as circumstantial, and he may be right. Re: B53 "Danke schoen!" to Brigitte for pointing out the very interesting parallel structure here, which is essentially: "sDm=f r Noun / sDm=f r Noun." It is good to recall that this work is considered a poem by many. Re: B55 Both Serge and Mark-Jan pointed out that "n aHa.=tw *is* a negative sDm.n=f form. Thank you! Re: B57-58 I would like to refer Mark-Jan to Allen (p. 241), where he describes as a thought couplet "aHa ib pw m At sAsA / anw pw nj rdj.n.f sa.f," translating it as: "He is one steadfast of heart in the moment of attack; he is a repeller who does not show his back." I tend to go with this. Re: B64 Mark-Jan says that "swA TAwy Hmwt Hr rnnet im=f" can be read "Men surpass women in hailing him" (as per Lichtheim), since it follows the V-Subj-DirObj-AdvAdjunct word order. He is, of course, correct (and I am sorry to have confused him by carelessly transposing TAwy and Hmwt in my comments!). We both seem, however, to agree with Parkinson, who has "Men and women pass by, ..."---but neither of these translations makes any sense to me. . . . Re: B72 Mark-Jan does not like the negative imperative "m sn" and prefers to read the preposition "m" + snj"reading the sentence as "m Snj wA r Hm=f" (as someone far from His Majesty who inquires).---but that doesn't seem to fit the context here for me, and also, since "sn(i)" is required to serve as the object of a preposition, shouldn't it be an infinitive, which for a 3ae-inf. verb would be "snt"? Re: B73 I can understand Mark-Jan's objections to my proposed translation on grammatical terms, but if "ir=f" is a relative form, couldn't the sentence be translated "everythings that he will do for you will be [the same as] what his father had done"? Re: B74-75 Mark-Jan patiently pointed out that "bw" is *not* the LE negative particle, but part of the ME word "bw-nfr." He is right on the mark! How blind I was! I must have been reading too many LE tales when I worked on this! Mark-Jan also wrote: I hope my many corrections will not discourage you, Stephen, to submit again in the same level of detail. The more elaborate the grammatical notes are, the more potential there is to disagree with each other, but this is also the best way to seriously tackle Egyptian grammar, to find gaps in our understanding, and thereby to master the language bit by bit. ***Please rest assured, Mark-Jan and others, that I am not discouraged at all, but rather ENcouraged, and very pleased to find some people out there who are willing to go out on a limb and talk about these tricky verb forms! I thank everyone for their comments, and will dive into the next section soon. m Htp, Stephen ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 18:11:08 -0200 From: Julio Gralha To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Evidences of rose in Ancient Egypt Dear Friends, I am looking for evidences of rose flower in Ancient Egypt. I receive some information from others friends (EEF) and it is possible rose was introduced in Late Period. I found some Ptolomaic papyri (ex: http://scriptorium.lib.duke.edu/papyrus/records/676.html) related about this subject. I would like to know if there are other evidences (papyrus, books,...) and a hieroglyphic name. Kind regards, Julio Gralha Rio de Janeiro - Brazil Nucleo de Estudos da Antiguidade - UERJ Antiquity Research Center - UERJ PS: Thanks A.K. Eyma for your help ============================================================================== From: "George Kilroy" To: Subject: AEL =?iso-8859-1?Q?MDC_pr=E9sent_et_avenir?= Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2003 11:41:24 +0100 Hello, I know that the question is a little out of the subject, but I think it = could interrest the community. Is there some mdc2html program in PHP ? As I need it it would be stupid = to rewrite some already existant program. If not, I'll begin some = project for witch all interested good will would be highly appreciated.=20 I saw an article, some times ago, where an XML standard was planned to = replace the MdC standard, has somebody heard some about ? Thanks to all and happy New Year George Kilroy www.phpnuke.ch ============================================================================== From: "Rodger Dalman" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Purath Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:43:37 -0600 Thanks for your note. A couple of people have suggested Beirut. I'm looking at a different kind of question. Purath may, or may not, be significant to my question depending on when and where the reference was written. I'm looking at a collection of names that begin with "pr" and looking for possible linkages between them. Thanks for the input, Rodger ----- Original Message ----- From: "A.K. Eyma" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Sent: Sunday, January 05, 2003 4:06 PM Subject: Re: AEL Purath > >>Are you suggesting Beirut? I'm having difficulty finding an ancient name > for that city: > "Beirut is mentioned as far back as the 15th century BC; its name appears in > the Tall al'Amarinah tablets. << > > **Must be the Tell el-Amarna tablets, surely? Namely > EA 92, 101, 114, 118, 138, 141, 142, 143, 155. > > Beirut appears in AE texts as syllabic _b3-rw-T-j_, i.e. > Beruta = Be'eroth, Beirut. See also HWB 1332 > So this is not the Purath of Budge (written very differently). > > Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 15:54:19 -0500 From: Teresh000@aol.com To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: AEL Weak verbs I've been studying the verb forms using Hoch's "Middle Egyptian Grammar" and I had a question. Why is it assumed that the 3i and 4i verbs contain the letter -i? As far as I can tell, this is never written in the hieroglyphic originals, but almost always appears in the transliteration of the verbs. From the hieroglyphic writings only, these appear to be variants of strong bi- and tri-consonantal verbs. They behave differently enough to be considered their own class, but what is the reason that they are transcribed with an -i? Is there some evidence that this consonant was actually present in the verb, or is it just a convenient marker that these really aren't strong verbs? -- Terrence Donnelly http://www.geocities.com/weseb_2000 ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 10:58:53 -0800 From: "Marianne Luban" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Purath On Sun, 5 Jan 2003 23:06:43 +0100 "A.K. Eyma" wrote: > > >>Are you suggesting Beirut? I'm having > difficulty finding an ancient name > for > that city: > "Beirut is mentioned as far back as the 15th > century BC; its name appears in > the > Tall al'Amarinah tablets. >>Are you suggesting Beirut? I'm having difficulty finding an ancient name for that city: "Beirut is mentioned as far back as the 15th century BC; its name appears in the Tall al'Amarinah tablets. << >**Must be the Tell el-Amarna tablets, surely? >Namely EA 92, 101, 114, 118, 138, 141, 142, 143, >155. >Beirut appears in AE texts as syllabic _b3-rw-T->j_, i.e. >Beruta = Be'eroth, Beirut. See also HWB 1332 >So this is not the Purath of Budge (written very >differently). It could be the Semitic word "porath"....Hannig does not even list a "Purath". Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 13:41:29 GMT To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL El Amarna IV From: Brian Yare The following post contains a couple of corrections and the URL now points to a simplified page. I've added an image-zoom function to the product following suggestions this week. ================================ My 2nd e-book is now available on CD-ROM. Norman de Garis Davies's "The Rock Tombs of El Amarna, Part IV, The tombs of Penthu, Mahu and others", originally printed in London in 1906, is still the main resource for students of these tombs, and includes the main source material for the short Hymn to the Aten amongst many inscriptions. Transcribed into HTML and richly hyperlinked for easy access, this e-book sets a new standard in usability. To see a preview, and for pricing information, please visit my web-site at: http://www.yare.org/egypt where you will find a demo as well as details of my earlier e-book. Other volumes will follow over the next few months, and suggestions for improvement are welcomes. Regards Brian Yare ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 10:43:02 -0600 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: clastic@metronet.com Subject: Re: AEL Evidences of rose in Ancient Egypt The current best single reference for this topic is the work by de Vartavan and Amoros " Codex of ancient Egyptian plant remains." They mention 17 known finds of roses in Egypt, but note that ALL of them are Graeco-Roman and Roman in age. NONE are from pharaonic times. Cheers..... Clastic >Dear Friends, > >I am looking for evidences of rose flower in Ancient Egypt. >I receive some information from others friends (EEF) and it is possible >rose was introduced in Late Period. >I found some Ptolomaic papyri (ex: >http://scriptorium.lib.duke.edu/papyrus/records/676.html) related about >this subject. > >I would like to know if there are other evidences (papyrus, books,...) >and a hieroglyphic name. > >Kind regards, > >Julio Gralha ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 15:50:53 -0800 From: Dimitri Meeks To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Evidences of rose in Ancient Egypt Dear Julio. Note that Rosa arabica (wild rose) is endemic to the mountain region of southern Sinai: - Rafik Khalil , Dina Aly, Egypt's natural heritage (Cairo, 2000), p. 142; - Samy Zalat, Francis Gilbert, A walk in Sinai: St Katherine to Al Galt al Azraq (Cairo, 1998), p. 37 with colour photographs. Yours Dimitri Meeks ============================================================================== From: Michael-Tilgner@t-online.de (Michael Tilgner) To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL AE word for hospital? Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 13:40:34 +0100 Jenny Carrington wrote: > A friend has a request regarding the names of places for medical treatment in > Ancient Egypt. I could not find any related term in Rainer Hannig, Die Sprache der Pharaonen. Grosses Handwoerterbuch Deutsch - Aegyptisch (2800 - 950 v.Chr.), Mainz, 2000 According to Hermann Grapow, Kranker Krankheiten und Arzt. Vom gesunden und kranken Aegypter, von den Krankheiten, vom Arzt und von der aerztlichen Tätigkeit, Berlin, 1956 (Grundriss der Medizin der alten Aegypter III), p. 107 the AE medical texts are full of passages about the examination and treatment of sick persons. But we do not know where these activities took place. There are no indications in other texts whether there was something like a hospital or whether the sick person had to come to the medicine man. We know of several cases that he was called to the house of the sick person. Best wishes, Michael Tilgner ============================================================================== From: "a.p.de visser" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Weak verbs Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 12:05:12 +0100 Hi Terence I consulted 3 grammars about this subject,namely Gardiner, Allen and a dutch one(Zonhoven). Gardiner:,,In the case of the weak verbs ending or matters are complicated by the fact that these consonants( or semi-vowels) were OFTEN omitted in the writing. N.B. the capitals are mine Allen:he does not seem to give a remark about this issue. Dutch grammar( in my translation): ,, As to the weak verbs the final radical or appears rarely or never in the writing". Maybe it can help or support you. BRAM ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 9:54 PM Subject: AEL Weak verbs > I've been studying the verb forms using Hoch's "Middle Egyptian > Grammar" and I had a question. Why is it assumed that the 3i > and 4i verbs contain the letter -i? As far as I can tell, this > is never written in the hieroglyphic originals, but almost > always appears in the transliteration of the verbs. ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 11:04:36 -0800 From: "Marianne Luban" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Purath I wrote: > It could be the Semitic word "porath"....Hannig > does not even list a "Purath". Regardless, as it turns out, this is a fitting Semitic name for a town. The village of Porath was established in the 1950's in Israel. The name has to do with "favored". It stands to reason there can have been a settlement somewhere by the same name in ancient Canaan, as well. Marianne Luban ==============================================================================