Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 23:35:37 GMT To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Hieroglyph handwriting From: Brian Yare In article , Shane McKee wrote: > Does anyone know if there are resources to show how (best) to write > hieroglyphs by hand (mainly for quick writing, rather than full-on artwork)? > The best is probably Fischer's /Ancient Egyptian Calligraphy/ but I consider this book overpriced. The topic could lend itself well to an on-line site, but I've neither the time nor the skill to pursue the matter. Look also on my site at http://www.yare.org/languages/scripts to see how different authors present their hieroglyphs. Good Luck Brian ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 13:04:39 -0800 From: "Marianne Luban" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Mayati On Sun, 27 Oct 2002 01:52:02 -0500 Jerome Colburn wrote: > > At 08:56 PM 10/24/02 -0700, Marianne Luban > wrote: > > >Okay, here is what Giles says in a footnote to > page 315 of his "The Amarna > >Age:Western Asia": > >"The last two signs are broken, Guterbock > believed that -zu-uz was the most > >likely reading of them. Forrer read them as > -e-ka (Dahamun-e-ka) (snip) Jerome: > In any case, in looking for the original > Egyptian form behind a > transcription, we should look first for known > phrases rather than for > phrases we can hypothetically assemble from > Egyptian words. Of course, but one has to think of possible reconstructions before one can reject them for any reason. :-) Yes, we like these foreign transliterations because they give us rare glimpses into ancient Egyptian pronunciation--and that is what they reflect. They are not transliterations of any Egyptian spelling. Knowing that, one has to accept that plenty can be missing that we, who are accustomed to Egyptian being spelled out for us, could use as clues as to what was intended by the cuneiform writing. In that vein, the last suggestion I have is that there might be a kind of dittography involved in the name of the queen. For example, it has been proposed that the salutation from EA 41, which congratulates the new pharaoh on his accession and which reads "ana Huria" ("ana" is Akkadian for "to") is a dittography for an actual "ana Anahuria"--in other words "Ankheperure" (Smenkhkare). So perhaps, in "Dahamuneka" there might really be "tA Hmt mnxt" ("the gracious/benevolent lady"). The adjective, I believe, survives in Coptic as "mounk" and there was perhaps a variation in the vocalization of the feminine form, "mnx.t". Is it possible someone was attempting to write "da-Ham-moun(e)ka"--there being no need to write /m/ twice? For me, this might explain the problem of why "woman", Hmt, in which one would not normally expect a "u" ending--seems to have it. And, once again, the writings of "insibia" and, in my opinion, "amensis"--would argue against "unzu" for "nsw(t)". I would not be surprised if there was an attestation for "Hmt (or "Hnwt) mnxt" in reference to a queen--but I have to leave that to someone else to pronounce on. Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 12:01:02 +0100 From: "ISERN JOSEP" <25955jiv@comb.es> To: Subject: AEL Colours of hieroglyphis signs Hi list members Does anyone know if the colours of hieroglyphics (at least uni or biliteral) signs are (or should be) always the same? and if there are resources to show how its. Thanks Josep Isern ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 03:09:05 -0600 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Jerome Colburn Subject: Re: AEL Mayati At 01:04 PM 10/27/02 -0800, Marianne Luban wrote: >For example, it has been proposed that the salutation from EA 41, >which congratulates the new pharaoh on his accession and which reads "ana >Huria" ("ana" is Akkadian for "to") is a dittography for an actual "ana >Anahuria"--in other words "Ankheperure" (Smenkhkare). Rather, that would be a haplography. >So perhaps, in "Dahamuneka" there might really be >"tA Hmt mnxt" ("the gracious/benevolent lady"). The adjective, I believe, >survives in Coptic as "mounk" and there was perhaps a variation in the >vocalization of the feminine form, "mnx.t". Is it possible someone was >attempting to write "da-Ham-moun(e)ka"--there being no need to write /m/ >twice? I suppose *muneka, if it exists on the tablet (will someone have to go to Germany to collate it?), could represent a form of mnx.t. That _ou_ vowel in the Coptic form (which is an ordinary verb infinitive), though, corresponds to a stressed _a_ in an open syllable in the 18th/19th Dynasty cuneiform transcriptions, so *muneka would represent a different form from Coptic _mounk_. >For me, this might explain the problem of why "woman", Hmt, in which >one would not normally expect a "u" ending--seems to have it. And, once >again, the writings of "insibia" and, in my opinion, "amensis"--would argue >against "unzu" for "nsw(t)". Ah, that's it. I'm not so troubled by the _u_'s instead of _i_'s here; the first could reflect the influence of the surrounding nasals on the pronunciation of /i/, and the second the effect of the following /w/ on the pronunciation of an unstressed /i/. >I would not be surprised if there was an >attestation for "Hmt (or "Hnwt) mnxt" in reference to a queen--but I have to >leave that to someone else to pronounce on. Yet there's a good reason for a queen, writing to a king about dynastic matters, to identify herself as such, tA Hm.t-nsw; otherwise she could use her own name, as nfr.t-iry did later. For her to eschew these two options and identify herself using an epithet that neither specifically identifies her as a queen nor is particularly strongly identified with her personally seems to me far less likely. ********************************** * Jerome Colburn * jcolburn@soltec.net * im nfr mdw pn m bAH mryw mdw-nTr ********************************** ============================================================================== From: Teresh000@aol.com Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 23:24:19 EST Subject: Re: AEL Hieroglyph handwriting To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk In a message dated 10/26/2002 4:24:18 PM Central Standard Time, shanemckee@utvinternet.com writes: > Dear List, > Does anyone know if there are resources to show how (best) to write > hieroglyphs by hand (mainly for quick writing, rather than full-on artwork)? > Gardiner is a bit non-specific on the matter, other than showing samples of > his own handwriting, and many of the other books just use standard fonts. > It's sort of a question about how much detail to include, and whether there > are any specific caligraphic "rules" that people adhere to. The "m" owl took > me ages to master... > Thanks, > Shane McKee > You might want to take a look at my page regarding cursive hieroglyphs, at http://www.geocities.com/weseb_2000/ecursive.html. These have the advantages of being easy to write and developed by the people who used them every day, the ancient scribes themselves. -- Terry Donnelly ============================================================================== From: "Luca Brigatti" To: Subject: AEL Murray's Elementary Egyptian Grammar Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 21:18:24 -0600 Hi all, I found in my local University Library the 5th edition (1932) of Margaret A. Murray's "Elementary Egyptian Grammar". Can you tell me how good is it? I have not seen it mentioned as a possible resource for learning hyeroglyphics and AEL. Thanks Luca Brigatti ============================================================================== From: Steve Clark To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 00:28:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: AEL Colours of hieroglyphis signs On 28 Oct, ISERN JOSEP <25955jiv@comb.es> wrote: [snip] > Does anyone know if the colours of hieroglyphics (at least uni or > biliteral) signs are (or should be) always the same? and if there are > resources to show how its. > Thanks > Josep Isern take a look at "Symbol & Magic in Egyptian Art", Richard H. Wilkinson, Thames & Hudson, 1994. ISBN 0-500-23663-1 especially Chapter 5. -- Steve Clark ============================================================================== From: "Shane McKee" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: RE: AEL Hieroglyph handwriting Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 21:13:23 -0000 Dear Everyone, Thanks for the excellent response to my question re hieroglyphic handwriting. Fischer seems to win the day by a long shot. I agree with Brian that a website would be a nice idea, but likewise I have little time to work on this. I have a confession - I didn't read the FAQ looking for this question, but perhaps a recommendation of Fischer could be placed on the AEL website? (I didn't find it, but I suppose that doesn't necessarily mean it's not there...) All the best, Shane Brian Yare wrote: > The best is probably Fischer's /Ancient Egyptian Calligraphy/ but > I consider > this book overpriced. > > The topic could lend itself well to an on-line site, but I've > neither the time > nor the skill to pursue the matter. > > Look also on my site at http://www.yare.org/languages/scripts to see how > different authors present their hieroglyphs. ============================================================================== From: HNBTodd@aol.com Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 15:45:55 EST Subject: Re: AEL Murray's Elementary Egyptian Grammar To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk At 11:03:50 GMT Standard, on 2-10-2002, Luca Brigatti wrote: >I found in my local University Library the 5th edition (1932) of Margaret A. Murray's >"Elementary Egyptian Grammar". >Can you tell me how good is it? I have not seen it mentioned as a possible resource >for learning hyeroglyphics and AEL. This was the first textbook I ever used, lent by a history teacher. Personally, I found it of little use, being rather dated. It was probably accurate enough for its time, but it is obviously aimed at a very elementary level for school-children. For example, a lot of the phonetic spellings are inaccurate. However, there are relatively useful verb-tables, and (I remember hazily), diagrams of writing more quickly. I would recommend a confirming information with other sorces to separate the grain from the chaff and general detritus! Hope this was useful! H. E. Todd ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 06:39:50 -0800 From: "Marianne Luban" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Mayati On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 03:09:05 -0600 Jerome Colburn wrote: > > Yet there's a good reason for a queen, writing > to a king about dynastic > matters, to identify herself as such, tA > Hm.t-nsw; otherwise she could use > her own name, as nfr.t-iry did later. For my part, I doubt any queen would identify herself as "tA Hm.t-nsw" (using the article). My guess would be that whatever name is there is a designation, echoing whatever the person who delivered the letter called the sender/supplicant. > For her to eschew these two options > and identify herself using an epithet that > neither specifically identifies > her as a queen nor is particularly strongly > identified with her personally > seems to me far less likely. Again, although the queen may have identified herself on the original letter, we get this story second-hand--from the son of the recipient--in his own words. He may have been present when the Egyptians arrived with the letter and recalled whatever name or epithet the envoy gave to his mistress. Of course I agree that "tA Hm.t nsw" would be the best of all possible worlds--and obviously many have settled on it as being present --but what if it isn't written there? That "what if" is what I have been talking about. What else can have possibly have been--and I don't see any attested name like (like "Naptera") written there, either--certainly not "Anakhes-n-amoun". Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Subject: RE: AEL Colours of hieroglyphis signs Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 12:22:27 +0100 From: To: Also the beautiful book by Mariolina Betr=F2 says something: Maria Carmela Betr=F2 - "Hieroglyphics: The writings of Ancient Egypt" - Abbeville 1996 Fabio. ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 00:25:26 GMT To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Colours of hieroglyphis signs From: Brian Yare In article , wrote: > Also the beautiful book by Mariolina Betrņ says something: > I have it on my desk. What does it say about the colours? It seems to be in black and red to me. I suspect the original enquiry was about other colours used on monumental inscriptions. Brian ============================================================================== Subject: RE: AEL Colours of hieroglyphis signs Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 09:39:13 +0100 From: To: Dear Brian. I didn't state that in the book the glyphs are reproduced in colour. I meant that inside the description of some of the glyphs (e.g.: A19, D2, G1, F25, N14, N26, N28, R8, R11, ...) the book does speak about the different colours that were used to draw these signs. Moreover I think this book is worthy to be bought (and read ;-) ) by itself. I own the original Italian version, but I believe the English translation is accurate, and so there should be the same descriptions about the colours. A little digression: if you want to see one of the earliest analysis of this topic, Champollion already spoke about it in his Grammaire Egyptienne (chapter I page 8-11 see online: http://efts.lib.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/eos/eos_page.pl?DPI=100&callnum=PJ1135.C45&object=44 ) Ciao, Fabio. ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 18:02:45 GMT To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Colours of hieroglyphis signs From: Brian Yare In article , wrote: > I didn't state that in the book the glyphs are reproduced in colour. > I meant that inside the description of some of the glyphs (e.g.: > A19, D2, G1, F25, N14, N26, N28, R8, R11, ...) the book does speak > about the different colours that were used to draw these signs. > I'm sorry if I misinterpreted you. As penance I've copied out the following few sentences. In the English version of Betro, the mentions of colour for the above are: Q19 "Old Man" Sometimes more detailed examples of the sign show other characteristics of advanced age: balding foreheads and an orange colour to the skin, which for the Egyptians indicated pallid skin no longer exposed to the sun, as opposed to the red-brown color of virile bodies. D2 "Face" A curious detail is the chromatic convention used in this hieroglyph: while the skin color in the sign for head is the normal pink or red-brown, the color of the face is an intense golden yellow. G1 "Egyptian Vulture" In the earliest examples the wings are gray or blue; they are green in the later images. N14 "Star" The colors are the classic colors of the stars: yellow, golden, or red, and rarely blue. N26 "Mountain" Like the preceding sign (N21), it is colored pink or yellow and has dark spots. Sometimes its base is marked with the black or green that indicates cultivated land. N28 "Hill Illuminated by the Sun" Examples from the Old Kingdom show a semicircular figure with four bands of diverse colors - blues, greens, and reds - with a sort of halo of rays above. R8 "Emblem of Divinity" The more detailed variants indicate that it represented strips of fabric (the dominant color is yellow, alternating with blue and green) wrapped around a support. R11 "Pilaster-djed" However, this hypothesis does not agree with the color of the signs in the examples from the Old Kingdom: the upper part of the /djed/ is generally green or red, while the body can be black, white, yellow, or red and sometimes even green. > Moreover I think this book is worthy to be bought (and read ;-) ) > by itself. I completely agree (but have a copy on semi-permanent loan from Kidderminster public library). I particularly like the "Cursive writing line" for each featured glyph. A wonderful book, it would be even better with coloured illustrations! Another good book on the glyphs themselves is Richard H. Wilkinson, "Reading Egyptian Art" which again does not have full colour illustrations. Best Wishes Brian ==============================================================================