From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 00:27:42 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL running up to page 2, line 18 On 22 Aug 97 at 13:12, Tokapu@aol.com wrote: > I am new to this chat list, (and what magnificent fun it is to be here!) and Welcome abord Ramona! > In line 11 about "It is on a mission of my father, Khufu_" Reversing this to > a more "logical" order misses a subtle point of emphasis directed toward the > purpose of the text. This is not journalism, it is story telling. "In the > days of Khufu" is a narrative device to show how venerable is the source of > the story, and de-emphasizing that misses this sign of respect. Maybe I missed something, but I don't think it says "in the days of Khufu". The story is set in the time of Khufu, but was actually written later, possible during the middle kingdom. By this time Khufu was already dead, and the scribe probably felt compelled to write mAa xru (justified) after Khufu's name as a mark or respect, even though Khufu is still very much alive in the story! > The ka, > mislabeled so often as a "soul" or simply as a part of the personality, is a > very specific part of the personality - the outside of the mask, the public > person, the "you" whom only others can see. This is counter-balanced by the > ba, which is the inside of the mask, the most private experiences of the > inner life, the experience which only you can know of yourself. That is why > the ba goes with you into the next life, but the ka remains painted in your > tomb, and in all the remnants of personality and character which evoke your > presence in the memories of others. As Geoff mentioned in a recent post, words like ba and ka are very difficult to pin down. The ka can also be considered to be some aspect of the person located outside of, and at a distance from, the body (as can the ba IIRC). The ka certainly leads a more active 'life' than remaining on the tomb walls! Certainly, there was the notion that some aspect of the ka remained in the tomb, and required sustenance in the form of food offerings. There is an expression "to go to one's ka" which is a euphemism for dying. In Pyramid Texts 832-3, the deceased is addressed "the King has gone to his ka. O king, you have departed that you may live, you have not departed that you may die." In the Book of the Dead there is also the expectation that the ka would have an otherworldly existence. From spell 185 "may he grant to the ka of Osiris Ani, entrance and coming forth from the underworld, without quarrel, at the gates of the duat". I hope I haven't muddied the waters too much! ;-) Regards, -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 00:01:58 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL running up to page 2, line 18 >>>>> "Tokapu" == Tokapu writes: Tokapu> a death cult, = but really only because they were not Tokapu> afraid of it. Dying they wanted control over, but death Tokapu> itself was life=92s greatest and most wonderful reward, a Tokapu> secure haven in the chaos of existence carved out by a Tokapu> lifetime of work a= nd study. That the Egyptian were not afraid of death is somehow a legend. The standard work on this is "Death as an ennemy" (which unfortunately I haven't read) ; but a few examples come to mind : the wish of "not dying a second time" in the netherworld ; and the eloquent invocation on stelas : " O you the living, as you love life and hate death..." besides, the netherworld is certainly a exiting place, but it is also a dangerous one. Anyway the text is not only speaking of death : Djedefhor remarks that Djedji is also free from the problems of old age (unlike the poor Ptahotep who describe them in his teaching). regards, Serge Rosmorduc ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 00:27:27 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL West. P6, L5-6. >>>>> "Michael" == Michael Dyall-Smith writes: Michael> the relationship of the suffix pronoun, =s, and the Michael> womans name. Is the name just in apposition at the end of Michael> the sentence, "When shall SHE give birth, Redjedjet?", or Michael> does the suffix pronoun indicate some kind of fronting; Michael> 'When shall Redjedjet GIVE BIRTH?' I think Redjedjet is just an apposition ; IMHO the construct here belongs more to stylistics than to grammars. Michael> Line 6: Dd-in Ddi msi=s m Abd pri.t mD-diw "Then Djedi Michael> said, "She will give birth in the [first] month of pri.t Michael> (winter) , day 15" Notes> Prospective verb form again. Should there be the word for Notes> one after Michael> Abd? The Z1-stroke under the Abd sign is a one. As an aside, the 'ms' in the answer might be a prospective sDm(w)=f, which can be used to emphasise prospective construct. (the paradigm of prospective sDmw=f is the same as circumstancial sDm=f, except for an final y/w that can appear). Here, of course, I suggest it because one expect an emphatic sentence after a question for specification involing an adverbial complement. Michael> Does the sun sign to double duty as the det. for Michael> pri.t and as the word for day (zp/ra)? I suppose so. I use "sw" as word for days in date. Is zp/ra a new one (no kidding here, there are so many ways of transcribing the year sign !) regards, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) 5, rue Beranger 92240 Malakoff tel 01 48 70 37 13 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 19:38:30 -0500 From: Saida To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL running up to page 2, line 18 Tokapu@aol.com wrote: > > Friends, > > I am new to this chat list, (and what magnificent fun it is to be here!) and > jumping into in midstream, Hi, Ramona! I appreciate the comments of your post, but look again at these lines below. If you study the determinatives, you will see that it is the embalmer as "clothier" that is meant. > Line 18, "May your ba know the ways leading to the place of portals >which enclose the Wearied One." It is rather: "May your ba recognize the way to the portal of He Who Clothes the Weary" !!! The "weary" is the dead person and the embalmer is the "clothier" who wraps the deceased in his bandages. Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 00:15:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Ka and Ba again Hi, Ramona and Mark, > > The ka, > > mislabeled so often as a "soul" or simply as a part of the personality, is a > > very specific part of the personality - the outside of the mask, the public > > person, the "you" whom only others can see. This is counter-balanced by the > > ba, which is the inside of the mask, the most private experiences of the > > inner life, the experience which only you can know of yourself. That is why > > the ba goes with you into the next life, but the ka remains painted in your > > tomb, and in all the remnants of personality and character which evoke your > > presence in the memories of others. Ramona is right that it is a dangerous to translate words like "Ka" into English because translation can give mistaken impressions, especially when we know so little about the real concepts and how these entities behaved. We only have part of the picture and that picture is ambiguous and confusing. > As Geoff mentioned in a recent post, words like ba and ka are very > difficult to pin down. The ka can also be considered to be some > aspect of the person located outside of, and at a distance from, the > body (as can the ba IIRC). The ka certainly leads a more active > 'life' than remaining on the tomb walls! Certainly, there was the > notion that some aspect of the ka remained in the tomb, and required > sustenance in the form of food offerings. yes, Mark, in fact there has been a lot of discussion as to exactly what it means to say that someone "goes to his Ka". Some have interpreted this to mean that the Ka exists from birth in some other world among the gods, and that when one dies he goes to join it. However, this interpretation does not seem very likely to me. I prefer the interpretation of my professor James P. Allen, who sees this as meaning that, since the Ka is the life-force, the energy which animates a person, when a person dies, by definition the Ka leaves the body and goes to the other world. It is actually the Ba which needs to be encouraged during the funerary rites to leave the body and go to join the Ka in the next world so that spiritual integrity will be possible. However, the body continued to play an important role in integrity and survival too. The Ba also needed to return to rest in the body either by day or by night, and this is why the body had to be preserved so that the Ba would have a place of residence. The notion of "Ka-statue" is actually an Egyptological assumption and asside from very specific images such as that of King Hor of the 13th dynasty and certain reliefs of New Kingdom date, there is nothing to specifically connect the word "Ka" with funerary sculpture in Egypt. From what we know of the nature of Ba and ka thus far, which is afterall not that much, it seems more likely that the statues would have been necessary for the Ba rather than the Ka. Probably the Ka was regarded as having departed long ago, and residing in the realms of gods in the heavens and underworld domains. The Ba, however, was the part of the individual which seems to move about and go from one world to the next. If the body were destroyed for some reason the Ba would need a place to rest when it was visiting in this world. However, on the other hand, there is a notion of the "Ka chapel" which does come from Egyptian terminology itself (Hw.t k3). Maybe statues which were placed in such chapels were indeed intended to be a venue for the Ka of the individual. Yet we know so little about exactly what a Ka really was. Kings often depicted themselves as being followed by their Ka's in reliefs. The Ka usually looks identical to the king but wears a Ka symbol on its head and is labeled with the Horus Name of the King whereas the other images of the king label him with his cartouches more often than not. What is particularly interesting about the use of the Horus name for the royal Ka is that during the New Kingdom, with very few exceptions Horus Names were Horus-Bull names. They contained as their first element the falcon of Horus, and the second element was the bull sign (k3) which has the same consonantal skeleton as Ka (k3). For example, see the Horus name of Amenhotep III: Hrw-k3-nxt-x`j.w-m-`nx "Horus Victorious Bull who Appears in Life". This is the name associated throughout the Luxor temple with the Ka following behind the image of the king. In the case of Hatshepsut, whos titulary you can find so nicely typeset for us by Al Behrens, from photos he took of her obelesk at Karnak, you will notice that she has replaced the usual bull with three Ka-arms in her Horus name. This was probably because, even though she had decided to declare herself "King" and wear the ceremonial beard of a male monarch, she could not see fit to call herself a "bull" which, when it is written out fully in the hieroglyphic language with all its determinatives (something which almost never happens in royal names and titulary) it has a {penis} determinative to emphasize its male generative powers. In fact, in some cases the word for bull can be written entirely with the {penis} sign. Even Hatshepsut was a bit wary about designating herself as a bull, but conveniently there existed a homophonous word which could make her Horus Name fit the requirements of New Kingdom titulary conventions without offending any societal senses of gender propriety. She could be Hrw.t-nTr.y.t-k3.w "Horus(f.) (sometimes written with the feminine {t}) Divine of Ka's" and this would sound like a Horus Bull name without actually calling the heffer a bull! ;-P Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 01:22:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West. P6, L5-6. Hi, Mike, and Serge, msj=s jr.f zy nw rd-Dd.t > Michael> the relationship of the suffix pronoun, =s, and the > Michael> womans name. Is the name just in apposition at the end of > Michael> the sentence, "When shall SHE give birth, Redjedjet?", or > Michael> does the suffix pronoun indicate some kind of fronting; > Michael> 'When shall Redjedjet GIVE BIRTH?' > > I think Redjedjet is just an apposition ; IMHO the construct here belongs > more to stylistics than to grammars. I agree with Serge. It is just like colloquial speach, but if you fill in the missing "data", you get: "When will she give birth, (that is namely this afore-mentioned) Redjedet" > Michael> Line 6: Dd-in Ddi msi=s m Abd pri.t mD-diw "Then Djedi > Michael> said, "She will give birth in the [first] month of pri.t > Michael> (winter) , day 15" > > Notes> Prospective verb form again. Should there be the word for > Notes> one after > Michael> Abd? > > The Z1-stroke under the Abd sign is a one. As an aside, the 'ms' in > the answer might be a prospective sDm(w)=f, which can be used to > emphasise prospective construct. (the paradigm of prospective sDmw=f > is the same as circumstancial sDm=f, except for an final y/w that can > appear). Here, of course, I suggest it because one expect an emphatic > sentence after a question for specification involing an adverbial > complement. Am I responsible for this transliteration error? Hmmmm. If so, I should have typed: Dd-jn Ddj msj=s m 3bd w` prj.t sw mD-diw I think I was just being careless. Note the words w` and sw which I had previously left out as an oversight. Serge, this is the second time you have referred to a prospective sDm.w=f. I must say I am not very familiar with this form. Could you please tell us some more about it. It seems like most sDm.w=f's are perfective, so I am quite interested to know more. Is the prospective form also technically perfective? If so, can you explain this in some way that makes it easier to understand. I have this tendency to always think of future tense and therefore see the prospective as imperfective because it has not yet been accomplished. However, I am aware that there could be something wrong with this way of viewing it. I am simply not much of a grammarian. I do better with lexicography than grammar as you might have noticed. ;-P > Michael> Does the sun sign to double duty as the det. for > Michael> pri.t and as the word for day (zp/ra)? > > I suppose so. I use "sw" as word for days in date. Is zp/ra a new one > (no kidding here, there are so many ways of transcribing the year sign !) I agree with Serge. ;-P I do actually wonder whether r` was ever really used for "day" however, since there are plenty of examples where hrw can be written with the disk and stroke as well. I believe there are a very few examples of r` nb spelled out phonetically but this always seemed kind of odd to me. However, if you think of each day as the equivalent of a new sun, in the same way that some people's have looked at every month as a new moon ("many moons ago"), then maybe it is not so much of a problem. So often though Egyptian had many different values written with the same exact signs so it is a bit tricky to know which one is intended. sw or sw.w seems to be what was used for days (i.e. "dates") of the month as opposed to hrw meaning "daylight" and r` meaning "sun" in its sense of the day. There are yet more problems with the year writings (M4, O50), because rnp.t year seems so have had a similar relationship to a regnal (i.e. "date") year as hrw had to sw! However the problem is especially tricky since we do not know precisely how the word for regnal year was pronounced. It has been suggested as: rnp.t-zp, H3t-zp, rnp.t-Hsb.t, Hsb.t-zp, and simply zp. I tend to think that the last one is probably the most likely since in Coptic one finds simple {sp}. But this unfortunately does not explain what to do with the {t}-loaf that so often occurs in this writing, and this tends to throw one back to square one guessing which feminine word was involved. Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 21:55:39 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List , ANE List , OsirisList Subject: AEL Hieratic Web Pages - Update I have made a number of changes to the Basic Lessons in Hieratic pages, including completing the pages for Lesson 3. All the exercises now include the possibility of automatically submitting your answers for review or any questions that may come up as you're working on the exercise. I hope to complete all the planned lessons plus some reading material in the not too distant future, though I'm going to have to slow down for a while due to the need to get myself geared up for the start of classes in a couple of weeks (at least students don't have to startstudying for classes before they start!). -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 12:48:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Tokapu@aol.com To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL ka and ba Friends, It has been my experience that the clues to the meaning of ka and ba are = so open as to seem invisible. I cannot believe that it is a coincidence that= ka is a pun on the particle for "you" in verbs, as in "you are doing this." = The ka is the outside of the self, the outer mask whom only other people can = see. The ka is shown as a duplicate of the individual =96 there is you as you = know yourself, and then there is the you whom others see, the outside of you. = The ka is depicted as being born with the child because everyone else knows y= ou will be born long before you do. They know you before you know yourself. = Your survivors will remember you as your ka after you yourself have gone. Othe= r people see your ka in the ceremonies and important moments of your life =96= but you cannot. You can only know yourself from the inside. You cannot know h= ow others see you. The clearest clues are in the various "Instructions." Careful, mature suggestions for polite and civilized behavior in the pres= ence of a ka of greater rank, and generous, caring behavior in the presence of those of lesser rank. These are all about public roles, and public behavi= or. The mind-games one can play of "It=92s not me =96 it=92s you," come natur= ally to every child learning any language, and are the birth of the awareness of = the reality of other people and their unique perspective. I feel the image is also profoundly condensed in the determinative for the ka, a pair of huma= n arms stretching out, the reach of the human embrace, measuring out the distance from me to you. Even the ambiguity of the gesture is deliberate = =96 are the arms reaching upward or outward? In the presence of ka of higher rank, the arms are stretched upward, in the gesture of bowing or prostrat= ing before them, and in the presence of ka of equal or lesser rank, the arms = are stretched outward, in embrace. The clearest clue to the ba is The Dialog of a Man and His Ba. This is a profoundly moving piece in which a man talks himself out of suicide. Well= , who else in the universe do you have that final debate about suicide with except yourself? That is a completely internal debate, a conversation wit= h your own inner experience of your life, where no one else can stand. The = ba is shown with a human head and bird body because the inner self is always different from the outer self, freer and traveling on winged thought. No matter what attention and memory your ka is receiving from the living, yo= u are the only one who will experience the transition to the next life ente= red through the tomb. Those haunting images of the ba fluttering alone over t= he coffin hint at the ultimate privacy of the experience. It is too easy to attribute so much =91alienness=92 to their distant live= s that their meanings become impossible, but they were the same kind of human be= ings that we are, and only the specifics of their environment and understandin= g differ from our own. The nation along the Nile was humanity=92s first serious attempt at this = kind of civilized cooperation on a multi-regional base, and the careful rules = of human interaction and individuation were the bedrock on which they built their unity. The Nile muds might wash away physical boundaries, but the cooperation of everyone kept personal territories respected and aligned. American culture is steeped in reverence for the ka of great individuals,= we just don=92t have as succinct a word for the concept. Look at all the par= ty events that were scheduled recently around the "celebration" of Elvis on = the anniversary of his death. It is his ka they revere. Even his closest frie= nds and lovers have acknowledged =96 publicly in People magazine =96 that no = one knew what Elvis was going through inside of the Elvis image. We can imagine th= e experience of his ba, of being the person inside a living myth, but only = he can ever really know how it was. Ramona L. Wheeler http://members.aol.com/tokapu/Walkle01.htm ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 20:40:10 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West. P6, L5-6. Graham writes: > Serge, this is the second time you have referred to a prospective sDm.w=f. OK, Geoffrey, you asked for it :-) The "prospective sDmw=f", as many Egyptian verb form, is known under a number of names, which vary among authors. The other name I was given for this one is "prospectif ancien". You can find information on it in Pascal Vernus, "Future at issue", YES 4 (I suppose you know this fine collection ;-)) pp. 29-53. To summarize : a) The emphatic prospective sDmw=f is completely different from the passive sDmw=f b) In the Pyr. Texts, its use are 1) mark of simple future vs. modal (which is prosp. sDm=f) 2) emphatic counterpart of prospective sDm=f (which is interesting, for when you think of it, prospective sDm=f is already a nominal form) c) The prospective sDm=f tends to replace the nominal sDmw=f as time goes by. d) paradigm : sDm=f/mAA=f/ir=f/rdj=f/iw=f/in=f/wnn=f. a "w" or a "y" can appear in all forms. USES: e) after some prepositions m/mi/m-xt/n-ib-n/r/Hr/Dr. f) sDmw=f is the normal verb form after "ir" in protasis (you usually find ir mAA=f..., and nor ir mA=f) g) can be used as subject or object of noun clauses (rare as object after rdi) h) as apodosis or as continuation of an imperative i) in Wechselsatz (balanced sentences) j) in future cleft sentence, sDmw=f is the regular verb form used (in A mAA=f) k) as emphatic counterpart of "iw X r sDm" and "sDm X" l) the auxiliary wnn would be a sDmw=f form. Unfortunately, the prospective sDmw=f is often difficult to tell from the plain prospective sDm=f, except for 2ae gem. It is however an interesting option to keep in mind. regards, -- Serge ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 18:25:45 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Westcar web site To: to AEL REGARDING Westcar web site I've been trying to upload a revised version of the web site and have struck some problems. Please bear with me and I hope to get it functioning again very soon. Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 09:45:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL sDm.w=f Hi, Serge, Thank you very much for the information. > The "prospective sDmw=f", as many Egyptian verb form, is known under a > number of names, which vary among authors. The other name I was given > for this one is "prospectif ancien". You can find information on it in > Pascal Vernus, "Future at issue", YES 4 (I suppose you know this fine > collection ;-)) pp. 29-53. Yes, I do. (Yale Egyptology Studies) I see. What you are then talking about is the Old Egyptian "Prospective" as opposed to the "Subjunctive". I hade always been given to believe that in Middle Egyptian these two had irrevocably conflated with one another and therefore, I was not thinking in the right direction when you mentioned it. The only thing that would come to mind was the passive sDm.w=f. So, are you saing that you feel that the Old Egyptian prospective had survived into Middle Egyptian? I suppose it is of course possible. But then, since the {w} is not written, what really is there to distinguish it from the Middle Egyptian prospective/subjunctive form anymore? Is it perhaps only visible in places where we would expect a {t} such as in jnj.t and jw.t and jj.t? > b) In the Pyr. Texts, its use are > 1) mark of simple future vs. modal (which is prosp. sDm=f) > 2) emphatic counterpart of prospective sDm=f > (which is interesting, for when you think of it, > prospective sDm=f is already a nominal form) Are you saying that Old Egyptain had a prospective sDm=f as well as a prospective sDm.w=f which was distinct from the subjunctive sDm=f? I always thought that there were only two forms and that one was subjunctive and the other prospective, and that the prospective forms rarely showed a final {w}. > Unfortunately, the prospective sDmw=f is often difficult to tell from > the plain prospective sDm=f, except for 2ae gem. It is however an > interesting option to keep in mind. Thanks for the information. I will have to go and have a look at YES when I get back to Yale. Geoff ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 23:09:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Nefertum Chapel Scene E(1&2) Hi, The Nefertum Website has been upgraded a little bit. I have added some text explaining the images and put up the transliteration and translations of Scenes A - C. I have not finished revising D. If you have suggestions for D, which you did not mention before, when I posted, it. please let me know. The URL is http://pantheon.yale.edu/~sokar/index.html. Now here is some more of the Nefertum Chapel. Scenes E1 and E2 comprise a single large scene. Therefore, I am treating them together. The kneeling king burns incense over a meal piled on a table before a large shrine containing several deities. As in the last scene, the deities are all statues depicted on their pedestals, and small statuettes of the king make offerings to some of their images. The deities in this section might represent luminaries on the other side of Nun, which have not yet arisen into the Eastern horizon. Nefertum holds the Sound-eye to his breast, as he has just emerged from the image of Nun, while Khepri (sunrise), Thoth (moon), Neith, and Wedjoyet follow. This is a translation in progress. There are parts of this text which are very obscure, and I am still fishing for the best translations. If you have any suggestions, please feel free to offer them. E1 The lion-headed god crowned with a falcon and lotus, holding a Sound-Eye to his breast: 1) nfr-tmw xwj t3.wy nb k3.w Hrw nxt dj=f qnj n mn-m3`.t-r` Nefertum who protects the Two Lands, Lord of Ka's, Horus of Victory, when he gives force to Menmaatre. The mummiform god crowned with double Maat-plumes and holding a flagellum while seated on a high pedestal: 2) nww jt Nun, father 3) nTr.w Hr.y-jb Hw.t mn-m3`.t-r` of the gods residing in the Mansion of Menmaatre. The god crowned with a scarab beetle: 4) xprj Hr.y-jb Khepri residing in 5) Hw.t mn-m3`.t-r` dj=f nxt the Mansion of Menmaatre when he gives victory 5a)* n nb x`j.w stX.y mrj.y-n.y-ptH to the Lord of Diadems, Sety Beloved of Ptah. *Text to king's statue is continuation of line 5. The ibis-headed god: 6) DHwty jnj.n wD3.t Thoth who brings the Sound-Eye, 7) hr.y-jb Hw.t mn-m3`.t-r` dj=f 3w.t-jb residing in the Mansion of Menmaatre, when he gives happiness 7a) n nb t3.wy mn-m3`.t-r` to the Lord of the Two Lands, Menmaatre. The first goddess crowned with the red crown: 8) nj.t Hr.y.t-jb Neith residing in 9) Hw.t mn-m3`.t-r` dj=s snb the Mansion of Menmaatre, when she gives health 9a) n stX.y mrj.y-n.y-ptH to Sety Beloved of Ptah. The second goddess crowned with the red crown: 10) w3D.y.t Hr.y.t-jb Hw.t mn-m3`.t-r` Wedjoyet residing in the Mansion of Menmaatre. E2 Text over and behind the King: 11) Dd-mdw.w jn nb t3.wy mn-m3`.t-r` A recitation by the Lord of the Two Lands, Menmaatre, 12) nb x`j.w stX.y mrj.y-n.y-ptH lord of diadems, Sety Beloved of Ptah: 13) jnj.t nTr n Sb.w=f Bringing the god to his meal: 14) mj n=j jr.k nfr-tmw Come to me, you, Nefertum, 15) Hp.t.y nTr.w mj adjudicator of the gods! Come 16) n=j Dwj(.w)=k nTr=j to me, that you might be invoked, my god, 17) Hp.t.y nTr.w mj n=j adjudicator of the gods! 18) rn=k nTr=j Hp.t.y nTr.w (in) your name, my god, Hepety of the gods! 19) mj n=j jr.k nfr-tmw nTr=j Hp.t.y nTr.w jnn.w Hk3=k b3j=k sxm=k Come to me, you, Nefertum, my god, adjudicator of the gods, who brings his magic, his Ba, his Sekhem, and 20) w3S=k r t3=k pn srf r Hnq.t=k jptn srf.t r (3)Sr.w.t=k jptn srf.t his acclaim, to this your warm bread, to this your warm beer, to these your warm roasts 21) m stp.w m xpS.w m H3t.y.w znj.t.y.w jnj n=k jr.t Hrw Htm consisting of choice-joints, forelegs, and hearts of transgressors! The Eye of Horus has been brought for you! Furnish 22) Tw jm=s mj n=j jr.k nfr-tmw Hp.t.y nTr.w r x3=k m t3 wsx.t H`j yourself with it! Come to me, you, Nefertum, adjudicator of the gods and to your thousand broad-court-breads! Rejoice 23) H`j n.y nTr m jr.t Hrw m rn=s n.y H`.w `q n=k t3=k pn, H3t.y.w=k jptn a rejoicing of the god because of the Eye-of-Horus in its name of flesh! This your bread and these your hearts have entered for you 24) m pr=k `q n=k (3)Sr.w=k jptn m pr=k `q n=k xpS.w=k jpn m pr=k into your house. These your roasts have entered for you into your house. These your forelegs have entered for you into your house. 25) `q n=k jb.w znj.t.y.w m pr=k `q n=k t3-wsx.t jptn m pr=k `q The hearts of the transgressors have entered for you into your house. These broad-court-breads have entered for you into your house. 26) n=k stp.w m jH.w 3pd.w m H3t.y.w m znj.t.y.w m pr=k Choice-joints consisting of beef, poultry, hearts, and transgressors have entered for you into your house. `q n=k (j)x.t nb.t nfr.t Every good fresh thing has entered for you 27) rnp.y.t m pr=k m Sn.w.t m x3.w m Db`.w m Hfn.w m HH.w s-Htp=j Tw into your house, comprising hundreds, thousands, ten-thousands, hundred-thousands, and millions. I appease you, 28) nfr-tmw jnk DHwty s-Htp=j Tw m jr.t Hrw Nefertum! I am Thoth and I appease you with the Eye-of-Horus, jnj.n=j n=k jxr(.t)=k jm.y.t p.t having brought you your meal of what is in heaven, 29) jm.y.t t3 xr.t=k xr.t Hrw xr.t=k xr.t stS s-Htp.n=k Hrw m jr.t=f and what is on earth. Your meal is the meal of Horus. Your meal is the meal of Seth. You have satsified Horus with his eye. 30) s-Htp.n=k stS m Xr.wy=f jnj.w n=k zxn=k jnj.w n=k dbH.t=k You have satified Seth with his testicles. What you have sought is brought for you. What you have requested is brought for you. jp.n=k s(y) You have counted it 31) m wDH.w n.y jrp jnk DHwty jnj n=k jr.t Hrw HD.t m rn=s n.y t3 HD in libations of wine. I am Thoth who brings you the bright Eye-of- Horus in its name of white bread, 32) bnbn=k jm=s m rn=s n.y bnbn that you might become erect through it in its name of Benben. p3q jb=k r=s m rn=s n.y p3q.t jw3.n=k s(y) May your desire be made thin(?) for it in its name of thin-wafer. You have fattened(?) it *Access to a Woerterbuch would be very useful here as these words are not in Faulkner, probablynot being "Middle Egyptian" proper. 33) m rn=s n.y jw3.t jnk DHwty s-Htp nTr.w in its name of fatted-cow. I am Thoth who appeases the gods dd (j)x.t m (3)s.t=s (j)x.t m (3)s.t=s putting the affair into its place, and the (other?) affair into its place, 34) xr b3j.w xnt.y jwnw (j)x.t.y m (3)s.t=s for the Ba's presiding over Heliopolis, two affairs into their place(s), xr b3j.w xnt.y jwnw (j)x.t.y m (3)s.t=s for the Ba's presiding over Heliopolis, two affairs into their place(s), 35) xr b3j.w xnt.y jwnw (j)x.t.y m (3)s.t=s for the Ba's presiding over Heliopolis, two affairs into their place(s), xr b3.w xnt.y jwnw dj=f `nx wD3 snb n mn-m3`.t-r` for the Ba's presiding over Heliopolis, two affairs into their place(s), Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 17:09:57 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL sDm.w=f Graham writes: > Hi, Serge, > > Thank you very much for the information. > I see. What you are then talking about is the Old Egyptian "Prospective" > as opposed to the "Subjunctive". I hade always been given to believe that > in Middle Egyptian these two had irrevocably conflated with one another > and therefore, I was not thinking in the right direction when you > possible. But then, since the {w} is not written, what really is there to > distinguish it from the Middle Egyptian prospective/subjunctive form > anymore? Is it perhaps only visible in places where we would expect a {t} > such as in jnj.t and jw.t and jj.t? This, and the geminated verbs, in particular after 'ir' (see also Loprieno p81), where the geminated form is quite consistently used.(a) [e.g. CT V 92f, quoted in Polotsky, transpositions : "smn.w=i sw irf Hr iSst" Why should I fix it?" Leb. 40-43, quoted by Vernus, p 37: "ir sDm n=i bA=i ... iw=f r mar *rdi*=i pH=f imnt my nty m mr=f []" if my bA listen to me... it shall be happy, it like one who is in his pyramid that I shall cause it to reach the West[] ] > Are you saying that Old Egyptain had a prospective sDm=f as well as a > prospective sDm.w=f which was distinct from the subjunctive sDm=f? I > always thought that there were only two forms and that one was subjunctive > and the other prospective, and that the prospective forms rarely showed a > final {w}. Well, It's yet another damned terminology problem ; I'm using the terminology of P. Vernus in the quoted book, so the correspondances are : Allen terminology about Old Egyptian: Prospective | Subjunctive Terminology in "Future at issue" : Prospective sDmw=f | Prospective sDm=f Of course, the 2nd line is about forms in Middle Egyptian, not in Old Egyptian. (a) I had a look at Gardiner about verbs after "ir", to see what he said. It's rather fascinating to see that despite his theory of perfective/imperfective forms, his observations are basically correct, which leads to a rather complex situation for him : he is obliged to conclude that some kind of verb are used in the imperfective form, and some other verbs in the perfective one. b) there seems to be a disagreement between authors on the values of these forms. In Future at Issue, P. Vernus writes : (About Allen's work on sDw=f) > "From his careful studies, it arises that in initial > position sDmw=f in Pyr. contrasts with sDm=f both as an "emphatic" > form versus a "non emphatic" one, and as a simple future versus a > modal Future". whereas A. Loprieno assign modal value to both : the (Old) prospective being an optative form (wish), and the subjunctive form being used for commands (jussive). regards, Serge Rosmorduc ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 22:17:30 +0000 Subject: AEL The AEL "Clarification of Purpose" Dear all, It has been a while since we had a "Clarification of Purpose". This is just a brief note for newcomers to the list, and also as a reminder for everyone else. In this post I want to address some of the finer points of the list purpose so that we can all get along, and get the most out of the list. These are not hard and fast rules, but can be thought of as guidelines for "good practice" when posting to the list. The primary purpose of the list is for the discussion of the Egyptian Language(s). The membership of this list consists of people at all levels of ability with Ancient Egyptian from complete beginners upwards. In particular, this list was originally set up to provide a vertual meeting place for those studying Ancient Egyptian on their own. If you have any questions relating to Ancient Egyptian, or any particular difuculties with your studies of the language, please do feel free to ask! Sometimes the discussion can digress a little from the primary topic of the list. Digressions should be kept short and be supported by data from primary sources, or at least footnoted to a specific scholarly source. If you are just proposing an interpretation which is your own, you should make this clear. No-one should object to you posting new, or different ideas, so long as you make it clear whose ideas you are representing. For example, it could be ideas which are from a real Egyptian text, ideas which a particular scholar has suggested, or ideas which are "your own brainstorming". This way, the reader will be able to distinguish between the sources and enter into a sensible dialogue knowing where the information is coming from. If you have not read the list's welcome message yet, please do so, especially if you intend to post something to the list. You can also find a copy of the welcome message on the AEL web page. The URL is at the bottom of this message. When you get there click on "Introduction". Thanks for your time, and have fun! Regards, Mark Wilson List Owner -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 20:29:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL sDm.w=f Hi, Serge. Thanks for all that wonderful clarification. > Well, It's yet another damned terminology problem ; I'm using the > terminology of P. Vernus in the quoted book, so the > correspondances are : > > > Allen terminology about Old Egyptian: Prospective | Subjunctive > > > Terminology in "Future at issue" : Prospective sDmw=f | Prospective sDm=f And, of course, I had Allen for my class in the Pyramid Texts, so his is the terminology with which I am familiar. Now, I understand what you are talking about entirely. You know, a wonderful project for a web page might be to create a chart of correspondence between what various authors call all of these forms. ;-P Geoff ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 23:39:47 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL West P6, L 7 - 10 To: to AEL REGARDING West P6, L 7 - 10 I refuse to look at any of the translations, and so offer some pretty naive guesses at what is going on. (MDS) Line 7 onwards: Dd-in Hm=f#000# ist TAz.w n.y.w km.wy Hsq.w "Then said his majesty, "But the sand(bank)s (?shores?) of 'km.wy' are cut off..." NOTES: 1) The meaning of TAz.w (? = Tz.w as given in Faulkner) is a bit vague; sandbanks/&expressions meaning drought. 2) I take the verb Hsq.w as a stative form, meaning 'cut off' in the sense of isolated or difficult to get to. 3) 'km.wy' I take as a place, a nome perhaps? Presumably the area where this city of sAXbw is located. bAk=i A n=s Ds=i kA mAn=i tA-Hw.t-nTr ", my servant. Must I trudge to her myself then, so that I can see the temple ..." NOTES: 1) an alternative translation could take the area of km.wy as a 'servant', so one might read: "The sands of km.wy have cut off my servant." 2) The verb A is given a question mark in Faulkner, who guesses something like 'tread'. I have given it a bit more color. The king doesn't seem keen to get there unless he can ride on his boat (see below). 3) man=i looks like a prospective form (ie. with the 'n'). n.y.t ra nb sAXbw "... of Ra, Lord of sAXbw?" Dd-in Ddi "Then said Djedi, ..." kA rdi=i xpr mw.w n.y.w mH fdw Hr TAz.w n.y.w km.wy "Then I will create ('cause to form') water of 4 cubits (depth) upon the sands of km.wy." NOTES: 1) a bit of hindsight, but given this response, Djedi is attempting to overcome a problem raised by the king in the previous sentence. So the king must have been complaining about the lack of water to gain access to the region where sAXbw is located. Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 16:11:36 -0500 From: Saida To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West P6, L 7 - 10 Michael Dyall-Smith wrote: > > REGARDING West P6, L 7 - 10 > > I refuse to look at any of the translations, and so offer some pretty naive > guesses at what is going on. (MDS) > > Line 7 onwards: > Dd-in Hm=f#000# ist TAz.w n.y.w km.wy Hsq.w > "Then said his majesty, "But the sand(bank)s (?shores?) of 'km.wy' are cut > off..." > NOTES: > 1) The meaning of TAz.w (? = Tz.w as given in Faulkner) is a bit vague; > sandbanks/&expressions meaning drought. > 2) I take the verb Hsq.w as a stative form, meaning 'cut off' in the sense of > isolated or difficult to get to. > 3) 'km.wy' I take as a place, a nome perhaps? Presumably the area where this > city of sAXbw is located. It's probably the "Two Fishes Canal". The dets. N23 and N36 present here make it clear that a canal or channel is being spoken of. However, the sign beneath the fishes indicates a nome, which should be Lower Egyptian Nome 2, being that is where sAXbw is. However, this nome doesn't have two fishes as its emblem. In fact, the only nome with a fish, in this case being a single one, is "Char", whose capital is Mendes. I'm not even sure how all this gets transliterated as "km.wy". > > bAk=i A n=s Ds=i kA mAn=i tA-Hw.t-nTr > ", my servant. Must I trudge to her myself then, so that I can see the temple > .." > NOTES: > 1) an alternative translation could take the area of km.wy as a 'servant', so > one might read: "The sands of km.wy have cut off my servant." > 2) The verb A is given a question mark in Faulkner, who guesses something like > 'tread'. I have given it a bit more color. The king doesn't seem keen to get > there unless he can ride on his boat (see below). Well, His Majesty is saying that, were the sandbanks of the" Two Fishes Canal" not cut off, he could go there, himself, to see the temple of Ra, Lord of sAXbw. The word "otherwise" is implied. > 3) man=i looks like a prospective form (ie. with the 'n'). > n.y.t ra nb sAXbw > "... of Ra, Lord of sAXbw?" > Dd-in Ddi > "Then said Djedi, ..." > kA rdi=i xpr mw.w n.y.w mH fdw Hr TAz.w n.y.w km.wy > "Then I will create ('cause to form') water of 4 cubits (depth) upon the sands > of km.wy." > NOTES: > 1) a bit of hindsight, but given this response, Djedi is attempting to > overcome a problem raised by the king in the previous sentence. So the king > must have been complaining about the lack of water to gain access to the > region where sAXbw is located. Yes, and Djedi would supply him with water four cubits deep so as to cross those sandbanks by boat --a sort of Red Sea crossing in reverse. You are doing an excellent job, BTW. Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 30 Aug 1997 23:04:34 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL West. P6, L 11- 16 To: to AEL REGARDING West. P6, L 11- 16 Westcar moves on! Comments please. Line 11> wDA pw iri.n Hm=f r aH=f Lit: "What his majesty did was to proceed to his palace" or: "His majesty proceeded to his palace" NOTES: This is the INFINITIVE pw iri.n SUBJECT form described in P1,L1. The iri.n is a relative form, "what (the subject) did". Line 12> Dd-in Hm=f Then his majest said, "... immi di=tw m Hr n.y Ddi r pr Not so Lit: "See that Djedi is directed to the house ..." Notes: 1) immi (or imi, as in Faulkner) is the imperative of rdi 2) di=tw, a passive construction. Faulkner describes the phrase 'rdi m Hr' as "lay a charge on" or "command (someone)" There is probably a bit of history in the derivation of this phrase (?). The king is looking after Djedi by organising his room and food. Line 13> zA-n.y-sw.t Hrw-dd=f Hmsi=f Hna=f ".. of prince Hrw-dd=f, that he may stay with him" NOTE: OK, what is the verb form for Hmsi? I don't think it is a normal (circumstantial/aorist) sDm=f. I'd guess prospective. Line 14> iri aq.w=f m tA xA [6] Hnq.t ds Sn.t [7] iwA wa [8] "Make provisions for 1000 loaves of bread,100 jars of beer, one ox,..." NOTE: I take iri as imperative. We have had some discussion before about whether these vast amounts of food are real or the calculated monthly rations. If they are monthly rations, the loaves must be small. Line 15> iAq.w xrS Sn.t "(and) 100 bundles of leeks(?)." NOTES: Faulkner gives the meaning as leek, or as vegetables in general. Were leeks that popular? Line 16> iri-in=tw mi wD.t nb.t Hm=f#000# Lit: "Then it was done according to every command of his majesty." NOTES: 1) The sDm-in=f narrative verb form again, but passive. 2) wD.t I take as a noun, "command'", presumably derived from the verb, wD, to command. The nb.t would then be an adjective attached to wD.t, and this nominal phrase would be a direct genitive to the following Hm=f, his majesty. Is this correct? Looking forward to answers and comments (to this and the previous post) Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:10:51 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL sDm.w=f Graham wrote: > > Allen terminology about Old Egyptian: Prospective | Subjunctive > > > > > > Terminology in "Future at issue" : Prospective sDmw=f | Prospective sDm=f > You know, a wonderful project for a web page might be to create a > chart of > correspondence between what various authors call all of these forms. Maybe we should start here on the list. I offer as things which got me a little confused: Emphatic = Second Tense = Dass-Formen Personally I don't like the term "emphatic," since that doesn't seem to be what it does in ME. In the case of the Prospective sDm(w)=f / Prospective sDm=f issue, Hoch considers the former Second Tense Prospective, whereas the latter is the (plain) Prospective. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 21:34:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West P6, L 7 - 10 Hi, Mike, This is a very difficult passage. One has to work hard to make any sense, and there are probably corruptions in it. > Dd-in Hm=f#000# ist TAz.w n.y.w km.wy Hsq.w > "Then said his majesty, "But the sand(bank)s (?shores?) of 'km.wy' are cut > off..." Yes, this is good. Your suppositions were right. > bAk=i A n=s Ds=i kA mAn=i tA-Hw.t-nTr > ", my servant. Must I trudge to her myself then, so that I can see the temple > .." OK, here you have a problem, but do not feel bad, there are some very strange hapax legomena in this section. > NOTES: > 1) an alternative translation could take the area of km.wy as a 'servant', so > one might read: "The sands of km.wy have cut off my servant." No, this is not possible. Statives do not have such active meanings for transitive verbs, but are usually more passive. > 2) The verb A is given a question mark in Faulkner, who guesses something like > 'tread'. I have given it a bit more color. The king doesn't seem keen to get > there unless he can ride on his boat (see below). I think 3 is a noun here though. > 3) man=i looks like a prospective form (ie. with the 'n'). > n.y.t ra nb sAXbw > "... of Ra, Lord of sAXbw?" Yes. OK, so far I get: Dd.jn Hm=f Then His Majesty said; jsT T3z.w n.y.w km.wy Hsq.w "However, the banks of the Kemwy-canal are cut off. b3k=j 3 n=s Ds=j I will work tracks to it myself, k3 m3n=j t3-Hw.t-nTr n.y.t r` nb s3Xbw and then I might see the temple of Re, Lord of Sakhebu." > Dd-in Ddi > "Then said Djedi, ..." > kA rdi=i xpr mw.w n.y.w mH fdw Hr TAz.w n.y.w km.wy > "Then I will create ('cause to form') water of 4 cubits (depth) upon the sands > of km.wy." Very good. The only thing you had difficulty with was the one everyone has had difficulty with in the history of translating this text. A note of possible interest: in Sahidic Coptic the verb "go" ends up as {bOk} but there is no known precedent in earlier stages of Egyptian. Maybe this is the expression by which b3k "work" was able to transform into a verb meaning "go" in Sahidic. Bohairic Coptic uses {e} which derives from Egyptian Sm.t which by Late Egyptian was already beng spelled as Sj. Sahidic is the only dialect to have developed this strange verb {bOk}. At one point I once proposed that it might have originated in Late Egyptian stative form of fq3 meaning "jump" (the infinitive of which produced Coptic {bOe}), but I am not so sure of this anymore. Anyway, if Westcar is representing the way people really spoke Egyptian at the time, then maybe b3k 3 was already an idiom for "go" by the end of the Middle Kingdom. The only problem is that when this is the only example of the expression it does not exactly make a strong case for it. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ==============================================================================