Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 17:39:57 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Scene A, line 10 ? Michael Dyall-Smith wrote: > Scene A: Line 10 is a bit obscure. Only a bit!? > It seems you would expect a noun (or > pronoun) after the initial mi-n=k. Given the scene below these columns of > text, I wonder could the signs for m,s and the biliteral wr, be a mixed up > version of mswr, 'drinking bowl'. So, "Take to you a drinking bowl, great of > magic". > 10) mj n=k (j)m=s jw wr.t-Hk3.w : h3sD w`* > *The reading of the part below the line is doubtful. Might it refer to a > hatjes-vessel of something? See h3Ts in Faulkner. On the other hand, the > statement begun with jw is not complete and maybe this is the continuation > of the sentiment, though I do not yet understand its meaning. I am starting to wonder if the opening formula is being used the same way that the Dd mdw is used, ie it is written at the top of every column, but not necessarily to be read. It seems rather suspicious to me that this column continues with a repeat of what is at the end of the previous column - m-s. Also most words in Middle Egyptian that begin with m-s use the ms sign, even when it spans the boundary between an prefix and the root (like m.sdm.t). That could make iw the first thing to actually be read here. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 17:31:46 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West.P2, L12-13 Michael Dyall-Smith wrote: > > REGARDING West.P2, L12-13 > > Westcar, AEL Page 2, Lines 12 & 13: > > Backtracking again: The two verbs starting off these lines (wnm=k, and > zbi=f). There seemed to be no discussion about them. They are translated as > future tenses. Is this because they are aorist/circumstantial and are future > relative to the previous past tense verb starting the discourse (I have > come...). Well, first of all, the verb starting this discourse (ii.n=i) is a 2nd tense sDm.n=f emphasizing the reason or manner of his coming. This is followed by a purpose construction (r + infinitive: r nis, "to suumon"). The two verbs you asked about are prospective forms wnm=k "you may/will eat" sb=f "he may/will conduct" I'm not sure whether these would be regarded as purpose clauses (the reason for the summons) or result clauses (the result of obeying the summons). I think I prefer the latter myself. There are basically three types of sDm=f/sDm.n=f verb forms: 1) Circumstantial - both sDm=f and sDm.n=f forms - cannot stand alone at the beginning of a sentence - expresses basically our "indicative" 2) Prospective - only sDm=f form - stands alone at the beginning of a sentence - expresses our "modal" forms: wishes, uncertainty, purpose, result - all looking towards the (relative) future. 3) "Second Tense" - both sDm=f and sDm.n=f forms - stands alone at the beginning of a sentence - emphasis is on how or why the action is performed. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:35:50 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL West. P2, lines 15,16 To: to AEL REGARDING West. P2, lines 15,16 Westcar Page 2, lines 15 and 16. Another backtracking question on a part of the text that was not well discussed. The initial verb forms on these lines, are they prospective sDm=f forms? LINE 15 "Hzi tw jt=k, xwfw, mAa-xrw!" May your father Khufu the justified favor you! LINE 16 "s-xnt=f As.t=k m iAw.w!" #005# May he promote your position with the elders#000# Mike D-S Melbourne mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 17:21:44 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL West. P5, L8- To: to AEL REGARDING West. P5, L8- Westcar AEL page 5, lines 8 - I don't think anyone has finished off Geoff's transliteration from line 8 down to line 13. If they have, please point it out to me. Otherwise, here is my contribution. Line 8: Dd-jn Hm=f j-zj jnj n=j sy#000# "Then his majesty said: "Go and bring it to me!" j-zj and jnj are imperatives n=i takes precedence over the dep. pronoun sy ("it"), and moves up closer to the verb. Line 9: Dd-jn Ddj jt.y 'nx.w wD3.w snb.w nb=j#000# "Then said Djedi; "Sovereign, l.p.h., my lord" Line 10: mk nn jnk js jnn n=k sy#000# "See, I am not the one who will bring it to you" _nn_ and _is_ surround the phrase they negate inn, a participle, with future meaning in this case (?) - again, the n=k nips in ahead of the dep. pron. to get close to the verb (which is now a verbal noun). Line 11: Dd-jn Hm=f jn-mj jr=f jnj=f n=j sy#000# "Then said his majesty: "Who then will fetch it for me?" Lines 12-13: Dd-jn Ddj jn smsw n.y p3-Xrd.w xmt* nty m X.t n.y rd-Dd.t jnj=f n=k sy "Then said Djedi: #000#The eldest of the 3 (?male?) children in the body (womb) of RdDdt, He will bring it to you." ? What is the verb form of ini? (in the last 2 lines). Not a prospective as there is no .t. So an aorist/circumstantial form? Again, the indirect object n=k, slips in ahead of the dep. pronoun (object). I look forward to discussion on my translation and my comments on verb forms etc. So that is the end of Geoff's transliteration. The next line looks pretty difficult to me. Anyone want to have a go.... regards, Mike D-S mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 21:28:04 +0000 From: "Patrick C. Ryan" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Scene A Transliteration Dear Stephen: > > > 2) Hr.y-jb Hw.t-mn-m3`.t-r`* > > > > Oh One who is (lives) in the house of Him who maintains the order > of > > Re' (Sety I), > > I think this is actually a title or attribute of Sokar. That is what > one usually finds in the Dd mdw in formula: > Dd mdw in NAME TITLE(S) [Dd=f] QUOTED TEXT > The Egyptians seem to have felt the need for the Dd=f when the titles > were sufficiently long-winded, to let them know that the next bit was > the actual quoted text. > On page 934 of Bidge's dictionary, mn-m'3.t-r' is listed as the nsw-bity name of Sety I. > > > > 6) Dd-mdw.w jn n.y-sw.t* mn-m3`.t-r` > > > > Words spoken by Him of the Sun, He who maintains the order of Re' > (Sety I), > > Where did you get the "Sun"? Usually referred to as "Sedge" the > heraldic plant of Upper Egypt. This is the usual title for "king" I > notice that here the determinative appears to be an Upper Egyptian > king, > making this half the nsw-bit title. I believe that sw(t) is an ancient word for "sun"; in the Amarna texts, we learn that the Egyptian king was addressed as "sun". Cognate with IE sa:we-l/n, "sun". > > Pat PATRICK C. RYAN (501) 227-9947; FAX/DATA (501)312-9947 9115 W. 34th St. * Little Rock, AR 72204-4441 * USA WEBPAGE: ************************************** 'Veit ek, at ek hekk, vindga meidhi, naetr allar niu, geiri undadhr... a theim meidhi er mangi veit hvers hann af rotum renn.' * (Havamal 138) ************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 01:44:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Scene A Translation Hello to all of you who have been working on this text. You all seem to be doing just great. I have not had time to write in a bit, so rather than going back to all your posts, I am just offering my own translation. Mike, the sign you asked about is Gardiner T1, and you can find it in Faulkner at the fourth "m" on page 102, and the first "mn" on page 106. 1) Dd-mdw.w jn zkr A recitation by Sokar 2) Hr.y-jb Hw.t-mn-m3`.t-r` who resides in the mansion of Menmaatre(1): 3) dj.n(=j) n=k "I have given you(2) 4) nxt nb every victory 5) 3w.t-jb nb(.t) and all happiness." 6) Dd-mdw.w jn n.y-sw.t mn-m3`.t-r` A recitation by King Menmaatre, 7) z3-r` nb x`j.w stX.y mrj.y-n.y-ptH Son of Re, Lord of Diadems, Sety, beloved of Ptah: 8) mj n=k sw jTj n r3=k : jrT.t : wsx snw Take it, what is taken to your mouth! *Two bowls of milk* 9) mj n=k jr.t=k wpj r3=k jm=s : nwd : snw Take your eye, open your mouth with it! *Two unguents*(3) 10) mj n=k (j)m=s jw wr.t-Hk3.w : h3sD w` Take from it! Werethekau is [?](4) 11) mj n=k mw bz3 jm.y mnD.wy mw.t=k : mw mns xmnw Take the protective water which is in the breasts of your mother! *Eight jars of water*(5) Footnotes: (1) Menmaatre is the throne name of Sety I. Putting it into the Hw.t sign makes it the temple of that king. (2) or "It is to you that I have given" if you really feel you must translate the nominal quality of the sDm.n=f. (3) All of the references in this line are to the Mouth Opening ceremony where the offerings are categorically refered to as the "Eye of Horus Offering". "your eye" means that the recipient is given back something that made him what he was in his former life. Because Sokar is the god of the underworld we can identify him with Osiris (he is often enough Sokar-Osiris) and the presentation refers to when Horus presented his eye to his father after it had been stollen and recovered from Seth. The offering of the eye restores Osiris to his kingship and indicates that he has been avenged of his murder and the theft of his crown. (4) This bit is still untranslatable to me. Sorry! (5)The mother is Werethekau, who represents the solar-eye and the diadem of kingship belonging to Re, and his heirs. The milk of this goddess will be necessary since resurrection is a rebirth, and one has to be suckled by the goddess before one can receive the crown. In the Mouth Opening ceremony, water is presented in groups of four and the statue is washed with it once for each direction of the compass. An interesting parallel for the god Sokar is that in the Sokar Chapel of this same temple, a similar scene of the king libating before the god occurs, and in that case the text specifically tells us that it is so that the gardens of the god will grow. Since we know that the principal event in the Sokar festival revolved around making a corn-Osiris, a sprouting figure of the god which was watered and vigilently watched, this is particularly interesting. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 11 Aug 97 13:41:10 UT From: "mark vygus" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Nefertum Chapel Pictures If anyone is having problems with saving and viewing the picture files.Instead of doing the usual: File....save as....... try this Right click on the actual picture Then click on "Save picture as" This saves the pictures as Gif If you prefer jpg, just open in a picture programme such as Paintshop Pro and convert to jpg/bmp...etc... have fun Mark Vygus ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:38:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West. P5, L8- Hi, Mike, I am sorry I have been so terrible at getting back to you lately. This time I am at least able to take a moment. ;-) As usual, you have done a splendid job! > Westcar AEL page 5, lines 8 - > Line 8: Dd-jn Hm=f j-zj jnj n=j sy#000# > "Then his majesty said: "Go and bring it to me!" > > j-zj and jnj are imperatives > n=i takes precedence over the dep. pronoun sy ("it"), and moves up closer > to the verb. Yes, this is a very important grammatical note. > Line 9: Dd-jn Ddj jt.y 'nx.w wD3.w snb.w nb=j#000# > "Then said Djedi; "Sovereign, l.p.h., my lord" > > Line 10: mk nn jnk js jnn n=k sy#000# > "See, I am not the one who will bring it to you" > > _nn_ and _is_ surround the phrase they negate > inn, a participle, with future meaning in this case (?) > - again, the n=k nips in ahead of the dep. pron. to get close to the > verb (which is now a verbal noun). The gemination in jnn, since jnj is a third weak verb and not a biliteral (*jn), indicates that the participle is imperfective. This means that the action is not yet complete. It is ambiguous since i could indicate that it is action which is even now taking place and had been taking place int he past too, so long as it is not yet finished. However, in this case, because of context, we can rest assured that the imperfection refered to is that the act has not yet taken place, an probably will not. Were we dealing with a biliteral verb the situation would be reveresed, and the gemiation would have indicated a perfective form. Ddd would mean "which was said", with the action complete, for instance. Digression: (not relevant to this passage, but something that is on my mind ;-P) This is another good reason for students to always attempt to remember two which class a given verb belongs. This is why I generally believe in students learning their weak verbs with final weak radical and their 2nd geminating verbs with final geminating radical. I mean if you learn verbs like 3b, 3b, jr, wn, wn, qb, jn, m3, mk, md, pr, etc., you risk not remembering which ones are the third weak ones, which ones are the bilterals, and which ones are the second geminating. See the difference when you learn to transliterate them with all their radicals?: 3bj "desire", 3bw "stop", jrj "do", wn "open", wnn "be", qbb "become cool", jnj "bring", m33 "see", mkj "protect", mdw "speak", prj, "go forth". Here, I bet you would have no trouble at all distinguishing the three categories. Make a habit of learning their categories right from the start, and youwill be better off in the long run. End of digression. > Line 11: Dd-jn Hm=f jn-mj jr=f jnj=f n=j sy#000# > "Then said his majesty: "Who then will fetch it for me?" This line has bothered me. You must be right, because this is what Khufu must be saying. However, we are expecting the verb jnj to have a {t} in it in the prospective, because it is irregular, and always produces an otherise unexpected {t} in this form. Why it is not here, I have not figured out. I would love to see some suggestions. ;-) > Lines 12-13: > Dd-jn Ddj jn smsw n.y p3-Xrd.w xmt* nty m X.t n.y rd-Dd.t jnj=f n=k sy > "Then said Djedi: #000#The eldest of the 3 (?male?) children in the body > (womb) of RdDdt, He will bring it to you." > ? What is the verb form of ini? (in the last 2 lines). Not a prospective > as there is no .t. So an aorist/circumstantial form? Again, the indirect > object n=k, slips in ahead of the dep. pronoun (object). This is the same problem as in the line above, however you had not noticed it before. let's get a more hard-core grammarian to helpus here! Geoff ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:39:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West. P2, lines 15,16 Hi, Mike, > Westcar Page 2, lines 15 and 16. > > Another backtracking question on a part of the text that was not well > discussed. The initial verb forms on these lines, are they prospective sDm=f > forms? > > LINE 15 > "Hzi tw jt=k, xwfw, mAa-xrw!" > May your father Khufu the justified favor you! > LINE 16 > "s-xnt=f As.t=k m iAw.w!" > #005# May he promote your position with the elders#000# > Yes. ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:50:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Scene A, line 10 ? Hi, Stephen, > I am starting to wonder if the opening formula is being used the same > way that the Dd mdw is used, ie it is written at the top of every > column, but not necessarily to be read. It seems rather suspicious to > me that this column continues with a repeat of what is at the end of the > previous column - m-s. Also most words in Middle Egyptian that begin > with m-s use the ms sign, even when it spans the boundary between an > prefix and the root (like m.sdm.t). That could make iw the first thing > to actually be read here. Hmmmmm, that is an incredibly good idea to try! In that case it might be best to leave off the glosses of what is offered too. Let's see: 8) mj n=k sw jTj n r3=k Take it, what is taken to your mouth, 9) jr.t=k wpj r3=k jm=s your eye with which your mouth is opened, 10) * jw wr.t-Hk3.w Werethekau is *delete as dittography. 11) mw bz3 mnD.wy mw.t=k the protective water of the breasts of your mother. I am not sure. A loto f the time thee kinds of ceremonies involved the repetition of the phrase "take this and that...". Does it make better sense this way than it did the other way? It is difficult to say, since these formulas are ful of mythological rferences and do not always seem to make the best of sense to us. I am surprised by how much ambiguity there really is in all this. I kind of thought these texts would end up ebing relatively straight forward. Geoff ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 11:06:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL sDm=f's etc. Hi, Stephen, Thank you very much for your good answers to Mike's questions. I would however like to clarify a point or two. > There are basically three types of sDm=f/sDm.n=f verb forms: Technically there are four distinquishable sDm=f forms, though the Indicative is the rarest and not encounetered nearly as often as the other three. > 1) Circumstantial - both sDm=f and sDm.n=f forms - cannot stand alone at > the beginning of a sentence - expresses basically our "indicative" I think what you maen to say is that the circumstantial is translated by our indicative when it is preceeded by either jw or a noun subject which is echoed in the suffix pronoun at its end. In such cases it can be denoted as an "aorist". However, by definitition, circumstantials are normally dependent clauses, which cannot stand alone, as you have noted, but which are subordinate. They can be translated as "when he hears/heard", "though he hears/heard", "hearing" etc. They can never be the main verb of a senttence unless they are preceeded by jw or a noun subject as described above. > 2) Prospective - only sDm=f form - stands alone at the beginning of a > sentence - expresses our "modal" forms: wishes, uncertainty, purpose, > result - all looking towards the (relative) future. Yes, and technically thre are two forms imbeded in it. Ther eis the subjunctive and the prospective, but they became indistinct from one another in the Middle Kingdom. > 3) "Second Tense" - both sDm=f and sDm.n=f forms - stands alone at the > beginning of a sentence - emphasis is on how or why the action is > performed. Yes. 4) Finally there is also an indicative, though it is not as common as the other forms. Yours, Geoff ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 16:14:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: OsirisList@aol.com cc: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Papyrus Jumilhac on Web Hi, Excuse the cross-posting, but this image may end up being of interest and use to both lists. As promissed (on the Osiris List), I have put up an image from Papyrus Jumilhac relating to the punishment of Seth. The text deals with the particular cult of Bata and Anubis, the two brothers of the famous Tale of Two Brothers. In this instance bata is the bull form of Seth. Anubis is seen as the punisher, and the penis and testicles of Seth are removed, and he is forced into carrying the body of Osiris. Notice how the vignettes tell this story in various different ways. For the Ancient Egyptian Language List: Later, if you like we can attempt to read this piece. It is written in Ptolemaic Egyptian de Tradition, meaning Middle Egyptian with certain quirks. The hand writing, though beautiful is not always very easy to read, so we would have a lot of discussion of paleography. For the Osiris List: I thought it might be interesting to discuss this in terms of what we know of Seth in the Osirian mythical cycle as well as Bata in the context of the Tale of Two Brothers, and how the two stories seem different and similar. A good book dealing with that story was written by Susan T. Hollis. If anyone has a full cite, please let us know. She discusses papyrus Jumilhac in that work as well. The URL is: http://pantheon.yale.edu/~sokar/jum.html Geoffrey Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:27:30 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West. P5, L8- Graham wrote: > > Westcar AEL page 5, lines 8 - > > > Line 8: Dd-jn Hm=f j-zj jnj n=j sy#000# > > "Then his majesty said: "Go and bring it to me!" > > > > j-zj and jnj are imperatives Could Geoff perhaps give his justifiction for the transliteration "j-zj", this is usually given as "is" > > n=i takes precedence over the dep. pronoun sy ("it"), and moves up > > closer to the verb. > > Yes, this is a very important grammatical note. Order of pronouns: SUBJECT (suffix) - INDIRECT OBJECT - OBJECT. This applies only when all three are pronouns; any which are nouns fall outside the scheme and come after the pronouns. > > Line 11: Dd-jn Hm=f jn-mj jr=f jnj=f n=j sy#000# > > "Then said his majesty: "Who then will fetch it for me?" > > This line has bothered me. You must be right, because this is what Khufu > must be saying. However, we are expecting the verb jnj to have a {t} in it > in the prospective, because it is irregular, and always produces an > otherise unexpected {t} in this form. Why it is not here, I have not > figured out. I would love to see some suggestions. ;-) Perhaps it is 2nd Prospective in(w)=f: "So who is it who will bring it to me?" > > > Lines 12-13: > > Dd-jn Ddj jn smsw n.y p3-Xrd.w xmt* nty m X.t n.y rd-Dd.t jnj=f n=k sy > > "Then said Djedi: #000#The eldest of the 3 (?male?) children in the body > > (womb) of RdDdt, He will bring it to you." > > ? What is the verb form of ini? (in the last 2 lines). Not a prospective > > as there is no .t. So an aorist/circumstantial form? > This is the same problem as in the line above, however you had not noticed > it before. let's get a more hard-core grammarian to helpus here! This is a "participial" statement. The "jn" introduces the AGENT. Since it refers to future time, the 2nd Prospective form in(w)=f is used. (Hoch, _Middle Egyptian Grammar_, #134, pp.196-7) "It is the eldest...who will bring it to you." Basically this format allows the emphasis to fall on the agent of the action. In the past and present "tenses" the perfect and imperfect participles are used. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 15:39:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Website and Scene B Hi, I am sorry that various of you are having difficulty accessing the website. Unfortunately in an attempt to do something with the site I ended up deleting Scene A temporarily. It will get back up there soon however, as soon as I can get another copy of the gif file. Meanwhile, I offer you this very provisional transliteration for scene B: (read part referring to god first and then the part referring to King.) 1) Dd-mdw.w jn nfr-tmw nb k3.w Hrw-Hkn.w* ///////// *Harhekenu "Horus of Acclamations": the falcon of the artist does not look that clear, but compare it with the vulture {3} at the bottom of line 10 of Scene A (if you have it printed out!) or the one at the bottom of line 15 on Scene C for that matter. 2) Dd-mdw.w jn n.y-sw.t bj.t.y mn-m3`.t-r` z3-r` stX.y mrj.y-n.y-ptH 3) ntf nfr-tmw hr.y-jb Hw.t mn-m3`.t-r` dw3-nTr* Htp Htp Hr *{star sign} is a bit faded on the image, but definitely there. 4) b`H.t=f Htp nfr-tmw Hr b`H.t=f 5) z3w p.t rmn=k* r t3 T3z dbn** Hn-n.y-sw.t *I think this basket should have the handle. **or possibly pXr, though it might be a determinative too. (This line is the hard one on this scene!) 6) m `nx jw=j* w`b=kw** *stroke can represent first person singular pronoun. **the first water sign of the three which form the determinative for w`b is present but the other two are obliterated and the basket should have a handle... Take note that this is a frequent problem in this chapel. You may see something that I have not seen, so think about whether I am right or not with what I have transliterated. I have a provisional translation too but am still debating certain parts of it. If it does not end up working this way, I may yet change the transliteration to something else. This is the process in which we have to work. We start out with a first impression and then as we work with it in greater detail we start to see how that impression might not have been right and we begin to change along the way. This is my first attempt, but later I may fiddle with it and find a better way. You do the same! Be well and have fun! Yours, Geoff ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:02:31 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Scene A Transliteration Patrick C. Ryan wrote: > > > > 2) Hr.y-jb Hw.t-mn-m3`.t-r`* > > > > > > Oh One who is (lives) in the house of Him who maintains the order > > of > > > Re' (Sety I), > > > > I think this is actually a title or attribute of Sokar. That is > what > > one usually finds in the Dd mdw in formula: > > Dd mdw in NAME TITLE(S) [Dd=f] QUOTED TEXT > > The Egyptians seem to have felt the need for the Dd=f when the > titles > > were sufficiently long-winded, to let them know that the next bit > was > > the actual quoted text. > > > > On page 934 of Bidge's dictionary, mn-m'3.t-r' is listed as the nsw-bity > name of Sety I. That is correct. However I was referring to the whole phrase Hr(y)-ib Ht-mn-m'3.t-r' "who is within the temple/estate of Minmuaria" -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 13:55:07 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Scene A, line 10 ? Graham wrote: > > I am starting to wonder if the opening formula is being used the same > > way that the Dd mdw is used, ie it is written at the top of every > > column, but not necessarily to be read. It seems rather suspicious to > > me that this column continues with a repeat of what is at the end of the > > previous column - m-s. Also most words in Middle Egyptian that begin > > with m-s use the ms sign, even when it spans the boundary between an > > prefix and the root (like m.sdm.t). That could make iw the first thing > > to actually be read here. > > Hmmmmm, that is an incredibly good idea to try! In that case it might be > best to leave off the glosses of what is offered too. > > Let's see: > > 8) mj n=k sw jTj n r3=k This looks to me like m n=k sw iT.n r r3=k There is an extra "mouth" sign in there before the one followed by the stroke. > Take it, what is taken to your mouth, I like "Accept" for m n=k (literally "take for yourself), it seems a little more humble. > > 9) jr.t=k wpj r3=k jm=s > your eye with which your mouth is opened, > > 10) * jw wr.t-Hk3.w > Werethekau is > *delete as dittography. Could wr.t Hk3w here be descriptive rather than the name of a neter? > > 11) mw bz3 mnD.wy mw.t=k > the protective water of the breasts of your mother. > > I am not sure. A lot of the time thee kinds of ceremonies involved the > repetition of the phrase "take this and that...". Does it make better > sense this way than it did the other way? It is difficult to say, since > these formulas are full of mythological rferences and do not always seem to > make the best of sense to us. I'm not happy that it is a perfect solution either. I'm trying to see the significance of the items at the bottom of the columns - the first two columns seem straight forward, but the last two are different. > I am surprised by how much ambiguity there really is in all this. I kind > of thought these texts would end up being relatively straight forward. ROTFL! Even the Egyptians had to add glosses to their religious texts trying to make sense out of them - usually making them even more obscure than they were in the first place. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 19:50:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Scene A, line 10 ? Hi, Stephen, > This looks to me like > m n=k sw iT.n r r3=k > There is an extra "mouth" sign in there before the one followed by the > stroke. > > Take it, what is taken to your mouth, > I like "Accept" for m n=k (literally "take for yourself), it seems a > little more humble. Right, there is an {r} I was leaving out. Probably it indicates: mj n=k sw jTj.n(=j) r r3=k Accept it, (this) which I have taken toeard your mouth! This is good. It pays to have more than one person looking at these things! ;-) > > 10) * jw wr.t-Hk3.w > > Werethekau is > > *delete as dittography. > Could wr.t Hk3w here be descriptive rather than the name of a neter? Yes, it means "great of magic", it has to be something/one feminine who fits the description. > > 11) mw bz3 mnD.wy mw.t=k > > the protective water of the breasts of your mother. > I'm not happy that it is a perfect solution either. I'm trying to see > the significance of the items at the bottom of the columns - the first > two columns seem straight forward, but the last two are different. I agree, it seems even mores tilted this way than it did before. You are right that the last two are different. They are not in two parts for one thing. I really don't know. > ROTFL! Even the Egyptians had to add glosses to their religious texts > trying to make sense out of them - usually making them even more obscure > than they were in the first place. Quite! ;-P Yorus, Geoff ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 21:28:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL j-zj ;-P Hi, Stephen, > > > Line 8: Dd-jn Hm=f j-zj jnj n=j sy#000# > > > "Then his majesty said: "Go and bring it to me!" > > > > > > j-zj and jnj are imperatives > > Could Geoff perhaps give his justifiction for the transliteration > "j-zj", this is usually given as "is" Why certainly! Well, I hope I remember correctly but I believe that zj, in the Pyramid Texts is the imperative for prj. The prothetic {j} often comes on it as well. I see Faulkner lists it as jz, though I think this is doubtful, and might reflect a confusion of the prothetic {j} with part of the root, which might very well have happened in the middle Kingdom. Possibly the verb had the root *jzj and both are right however, you never can know. Moreover, why would it have been used as a phonetic sign in sy "who?/what?" on faulkner's Page 211? It might also be that I have a tendency to mix Old Egyptian in with my Middle Egyptian! ;-P To me the Old Kingdom verb zj is the same thing as the Middle Kingdom verb jz, either they were metathesized, or they are both the same verb but the writing is metathesized in one of them. Or, I could simply be wrong about it. At any rate, I think we both know what verb one another means. Geoff ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 21:03:06 -0700 (PDT) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: reeder@sirius.com (Greg Reeder) Subject: Re: AEL Papyrus Jumilhac on Web > >As promissed (on the Osiris List), I have put up an image from Papyrus >Jumilhac relating to the punishment of Seth. > >For the Osiris List: I thought it might be interesting to discuss this in >terms of what we know of Seth in the Osirian mythical cycle as well as >Bata in the context of the Tale of Two Brothers, and how the two stories >seem different and similar. A good book dealing with that story was >written by Susan T. Hollis. If anyone has a full cite, please let us know. >She discusses papyrus Jumilhac in that work as well. > >The URL is: >http://pantheon.yale.edu/~sokar/jum.html > >Geoffrey Graham >sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu Hi Geoff, I have NEVER seen that one Geoff. It is such a nice surprise when that happens. Thanks for bringing it to our attention. By full cite do you mean full title etc.? That would be . >The Ancient Egyptian "Tale of Two Brothers": The Oldest Fairy Tale in the World, < By Susan Tower Hollis, 1990 , University of Oklahoma Press. ISBN 0-8061-2269-2 I also think it helped your Sokar pages to divide them up. They are all huge files and take a while to download. I will be awaiting what the list members come up with for interpretations and thoughts on this very curious papyrus. Greg Reeder http://www.egyptology.com reeder@sirius.com ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 03:03:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Scene B Revisions The website is now back up with each image on a separate page. I hope this will make it easier to use. As I said before, I would probably have corrections to the first draft of my transliteration. Here is the revised version. Nefertum Chapel of Sety I, Scene 2: 1) Dd-mdw.w jn nfr-tmw nb k3.w Hrw-Hkn.w ///////// 2) Dd-mdw.w jn n.y-sw.t bj.t.y mn-m3`.t-r` z3-r` stX.y mrj.y-n.y-ptH 3) n jt=f nfr-tmw hr.y-jb Hw.t mn-m3`.t-r`; "dw3(=j)-nTr Htp Htp Hr 4) b`H.t=f Htp nfr-tmw Hr b`H.t=f 5) z3w p.t rmn=k r t3 Ts-pXr Hn n.y-sw.t 6) m `nx jw=j w`b=kw Geoff ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:38:58 +0100 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Marc Line Subject: Re: AEL Scene A Translation Geoff wrote: (some snipped) >8) mj n=k sw jTj n r3=k : jrT.t : wsx snw > Take it, what is taken to your mouth! > *Two bowls of milk* > >9) mj n=k jr.t=k wpj r3=k jm=s : nwd : snw > Take your eye, open your mouth with it! > *Two unguents*(3) > >10) mj n=k (j)m=s jw wr.t-Hk3.w : h3sD w` > Take from it! Werethekau is [?](4) > >11) mj n=k mw bz3 jm.y mnD.wy mw.t=k : mw mns xmnw > Take the protective water which is in the breasts of your mother! > *Eight jars of water*(5) >(3) All of the references in this line are to the Mouth Opening ceremony >where the offerings are categorically refered to as the "Eye of Horus >Offering". "your eye" means that the recipient is given back something >that made him what he was in his former life. Because Sokar is the god of >the underworld we can identify him with Osiris (he is often enough >Sokar-Osiris) and the presentation refers to when Horus presented his eye >to his father after it had been stollen and recovered from Seth. The >offering of the eye restores Osiris to his kingship and indicates that he >has been avenged of his murder and the theft of his crown. > >(4) This bit is still untranslatable to me. Sorry! Hi Geoff How much grammatical latitude is present in these formulaic texts? I notice that wr-Hk3w with the adze determinative is an instrument for opening the mouth and that wr.t-Hk3w is an epithet of goddesses meaning "Great of Magic." Since Hk3w of itself is to do with magic spells or words of power and magical tools/instruments are often verbal, might the word which is untranslatable in this line be the tool itself, ie a magic word? If that is the case then the chances are that it has no meaning at all (necessarily) and is used for its phonic qualities, now lost. The snake and stroke following the h3s; might that be another instance of Dd-mdw, referring to the h3s itself as a "word spoken"? Please forgive the naivete. :) Best regards Marc Line marc@bosagate.demon.co.uk ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 08:21:57 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Nefertum Chapel Pictures Milo Shiff wrote: > GIF, JPEG, and BMP are all "lossy" picture formats. That is, they throw > away picture information for the sake of compression. GIF is NON-lossy compression scheme. It works best on simple pictures such as drawings. BMP does not involve compression at all, and is also NON-lossy. JPG may be a lossy compression scheme depending on the compression ratio chosen. It was intended for complex pictures like photographs. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:48:12 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West. P2, L18 Michael Dyall-Smith wrote: > > REGARDING West. P2, L18 > > Westcar AEL page 2, line 18 (Geoffs transcription) > rx bA=k wA.w.t afd.t r sbx.t n.y.t Hbs bAg(y.w)! > Is the transcription n.y.t, or could the word be nty, "the pylon WHICH/THAT > covers the weary". If not, then the Hbs bAg(y.w) is a name of a pylon (?). > Does that make any sense? The hieroglyphic text in deBuck is nt - I don't think that could be nty. Rather than sbx.t being "pylon" it probably is "portal," although there is a very similar word which I think there is a possibility of confusion, which means "chest." Hbs means "to hide," although this isn't given in Faulkner with this exact determinative. Faulkner guesses that b3g here means "sight" - though with a question mark - the eye determinative(?) following it is a puzzle. I have a feeling that there is some reference here from the Pyramid texts or offin texts that we are missing. If we had some idea of the allusion we might have a chance of making sense out of it. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 16:22:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Scene A Translation Hi, Marc, Thanks for the ideas. > >10) mj n=k (j)m=s jw wr.t-Hk3.w : h3sD w` > > Take from it! Werethekau is [?](4) > > > >11) mj n=k mw bz3 jm.y mnD.wy mw.t=k : mw mns xmnw > > Take the protective water which is in the breasts of your mother! > > *Eight jars of water*(5) > How much grammatical latitude is present in these formulaic texts? The grammar is conservative, and tends to be in line with Old Egyptian more than Middle at times. This sometimes seems to make texts appear outside of hte norms we are used to, but it is a limited and restricted area of of deviation. Sometimes the sense of things is o bscure because there are puns taking place and these reflect a sympathetic magic between things taken from more than one context and belnded in the ritual. While we cannot predict when these things will happen, they too are a restricted genre though we do not presently know all the rules. So, there is a certain kind of grammatical leeway but it is not helter-skelter. > I notice that wr-Hk3w with the adze determinative is an instrument for > opening the mouth and that wr.t-Hk3w is an epithet of goddesses meaning > "Great of Magic." Since Hk3w of itself is to do with magic spells or > words of power and magical tools/instruments are often verbal, might the > word which is untranslatable in this line be the tool itself, ie a magic > word? If that is the case then the chances are that it has no meaning > at all (necessarily) and is used for its phonic qualities, now lost. This is possible. I suppose. > The snake and stroke following the h3s; might that be another instance > of Dd-mdw, referring to the h3s itself as a "word spoken"? More likely, if your scenario is to be accepted as a possibility, the snake would be the determinative for such instrument. Many of hte instruments used for the mouth opening ceremony were snake-formed. The Wer-Hekau wand usually is a snake with the head of a ram on it. Also, many tools, scepters, and implements had names which ended in {s} like 3ms, Hts, and h3Ds etc. These mean things like "grasp it". I am trying to think if there is any meaning we could attribute to a h3s. ;-P I can't yet come up with one. There is always the possibility that Mariette's artist got the signs wrong too. During the Nineteenth century people did not know as much about egyptian as we do now, and they also paid less attention to detail and accuracy in such drawings. Oopse! I just found the answer! Rosalie David, _Religious Ritual at Abydos (c. 1300 BC)_, p. 184. The last two offerings are one h3-snD vessel and eight mns3 vessels. At least that is what she made of them. She does not, however translate the text. Yours, Geoff ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 21:45:02 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL West. P5, L14-15 To: to AEL REGARDING West. P5, L14-15 The first sentence seems a bit difficult, the second is pretty typical. I'll attempt a transcription: Dd.in Hm=f, mri=i is st nA Dd.y=k Then said his majesty, .......???? OK, we have a verb, _mri_ (love, wish,desire) joined to a suffix pronoun =i (I, me). It is bare, ie. no starting particle (eg. iw, mk, etc.). Is it geminated (ambiguous in the text)? I think probably not. Then I think there is the enclitic particle _is_, which can convert the sentence to a question, or just emphasise the next noun. Next is the dependent pronoun, _st_ (it, her) Then the dem. pronoun (plural), _nA_ (these), which ideally has a joining n.y to the next (plural) noun. In this case there isn't. The 'noun' following is derived from the verb, _Dd_, to say/speak. It doesn't look like an infinitive because of the _.y_ ending, and the context would fit something like a relative form "the ones of whom you speak". So to put it all together, "I desire indeed the ones of whom you speak." pty=sy tA RdDd.t "Who is she, this RdDd.t?" Well, after wiping my brow, I offer this up to the list... Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 09:19:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West. P5, L14-15 Hi, Mike, Excellent job, Mike! I think I'd hardly change a word, and that was not easy either! > Dd.in Hm=f, mri=i is st nA Dd.y=k [snip] > So to put it all together, "I desire indeed the ones of whom you speak." Then his Magesty said; "but I want it, this (thing) about which you speak!" The js makes a contrast, like "however" or "indeed". I thought "but" worked particularly well in this context. The grammatical forms of st and n3 do not technically agree, but this is because it is a kind of gerneric "neuter". Egyptian did not have a real neuter, only masculine and feminine and plural, but st can refer to something like a neuter, an "it" as opposed to a "him", a "her", or a "them". It might be plural but hte plural strokes are not present, and the plural is sometimes used for abstract or undefined things. n3 is quite clearly plural, as you have translated it. However, we expect a singular since there is only one hidden box with the desired information, unless the King is referring to some plural of the Tnw or possibly has the understanding that "these words/matters are equal to a 'thing' or a particular concern into which more than one word or idea has been poured." > pty=sy tA RdDd.t > "Who is she, this RdDd.t?" Great. Well, keep up the good work. Geoff Grahamsokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 09:37:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Scene B Translation OK, I guess this one was too difficult or something. Let me offer my translation and see if anyone else has something different. I realize that getting used to the format of a temple relief is rather difficult, and that the shortcuts which stone-cutters use, and which the ancient tradition of ritual texts use seem rather obscure. There is, however, a pattern, which once you recognize it, will tend to help. First, as we have already noted, there is a phrase beginning with Dd-mdw.w and it simply introduces the name of the person or deity depicted plus his/her titles and epithets. Secondly, the text might indicate to whom the depicted being is speaking in the text. This is still part of the caption, and not the actual text which the being says. Then, there may or may not be a quote following it. In some of the texts, like in that of scene C, there is a horizontal band which serves as the label to the entire scene. The wording in such will just be like a title and not a grammatical sentence. Now, here is my translation of Scene B: 1) Dd-mdw.w jn nfr-tmw nb k3.w Hrw-Hkn.w ///////// A recitation by Nefertum, lord of Ka's, Horus of Acclamations, [......] 2) Dd-mdw.w jn n.y-sw.t bj.t.y mn-m3`.t-r` z3-r` stX.y mrj.y-n.y-ptH A recitation by King of Upper and Lower Egypt Menmaatre, Son of Re Sety beloved of Ptah 3) n jt=f nfr-tmw hr.y-jb Hw.t mn-m3`.t-r`; "dw3(=j)-nTr Htp Htp Hr to his father, Nefertum who resides in the mansion of Menmaatre: Adoration of the God: "rest, rest because of 4) b`H.t=f Htp nfr-tmw Hr b`H.t=f his flood*! May Nefertum be content with his flood! *this is a metaphor for the bounty of the king prepared for the god. 5) z3w p.t rmn=k r t3 Ts-pXr Hn n.y-sw.t Guardian of Heaven, (let) your arm (be) upon the earth and vice versa! The King has been charged 6) m `nx jw=j w`b=kw with life! I am pure."* *Several of these texts end with the king proclaiming his ritual purity. In this case he is just inside the door of the shrine, and entering the chapel, a good time to announce one's ritual purity. ;-P Geoff ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 23:58:25 -0500 From: Saida To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West. P2, L18 Stephen Fryer wrote: > > Michael Dyall-Smith wrote: > > > > REGARDING West. P2, L18 > > > > Westcar AEL page 2, line 18 (Geoffs transcription) > > rx bA=k wA.w.t afd.t r sbx.t n.y.t Hbs bAg(y.w)! > > Is the transcription n.y.t, or could the word be nty, "the pylon WHICH/THAT > > covers the weary". If not, then the Hbs bAg(y.w) is a name of a pylon (?). > > Does that make any sense? > > The hieroglyphic text in deBuck is nt - I don't think that could be nty. > Rather than sbx.t being "pylon" it probably is "portal," although there > is a very similar word which I think there is a possibility of > confusion, which means "chest." Hbs means "to hide," although this > isn't given in Faulkner with this exact determinative. Faulkner guesses > that b3g here means "sight" - though with a question mark - the eye > determinative(?) following it is a puzzle. It's the "door to the Underworld. As you say, sbx.t is a portal. The Hbs bg-t is that which covers the dead--i.e the Underworld. So probably bAg is a various spelling. I'll figure out the "nt" when I have time to translate the sentence. Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 00:50:20 -0500 From: Saida To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West. P2, L18 Stephen Fryer wrote: > > Michael Dyall-Smith wrote: > > > > REGARDING West. P2, L18 > > > > Westcar AEL page 2, line 18 (Geoffs transcription) > > rx bA=k wA.w.t afd.t r sbx.t n.y.t Hbs bAg(y.w)! > > Is the transcription n.y.t, or could the word be nty, "the pylon WHICH/THAT > > covers the weary". If not, then the Hbs bAg(y.w) is a name of a pylon (?). > > Does that make any sense? > > The hieroglyphic text in deBuck is nt - I don't think that could be nty. > Rather than sbx.t being "pylon" it probably is "portal," although there > is a very similar word which I think there is a possibility of > confusion, which means "chest." Hbs means "to hide," although this > isn't given in Faulkner with this exact determinative. Faulkner guesses > that b3g here means "sight" - though with a question mark - the eye > determinative(?) following it is a puzzle. It is nearly one in the morning and I don't know why I'm looking at this now. I don't get anything out of these lines that you guys get. That eye is not a determinative. Isn't it an imperative "See!"? It goes with the imperative that follows "Ask!" Anyway, this whole thing goes something like this, if you ask me... "Know your enemy. Know (something) that loathesome enemy of yours in your path before the Gateway to the Underworld. See! Ask! Comprehend! Watch!" Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 13:24:37 +0300 To: AEL From: Dan-El Kahn Subject: AEL Nubia helo everybody I am looking for information about a Nubian congress next year. Do you have any information about it? does anybody know at what publisher the following titles were published? The 7th international congress of meroitic studies, Berlin, 1992. 8th International Conference of Nubian Studies, 1994. Meroitica 15 Yours sincerely, Dan-el Kahn ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 11:06:05 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West. P2, L18 Stephen Fryer wrote: Faulkner guesses > that b3g here means "sight" - though with a question mark - the eye > determinative(?) following it is a puzzle. > > I have a feeling that there is some reference here from the Pyramid > texts or offin texts that we are missing. If we had some idea of the > allusion we might have a chance of making sense out of it. I checked the Coffin Texts. There is no place where Hbs bAg occurs. However in Spell 237 (Vol.3, p.307), one of the sources uses the eye determinative after bAg (translated as "languid one" in the CT index). -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 11:17:52 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West. P2, L18 Saida wrote: > I don't get anything out of these lines that you guys get. That > eye is not a determinative. Isn't it an imperative "See!"? It goes > with the imperative that follows "Ask!" The sentence after the "eye" is a standard greeting formula "nD xrt NAME" (lit. "I inquire about the health of NAME" = "How are you, NAME") A very similar formula crops up frequently in the book of the dead: "nD Hr=k NAME" usually translated "Hail to thee, NAME". If the "eye" sign is indeed part of this sentence, then it would have to be iri "do". -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 16:38:13 -0500 From: Saida To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West. P2, L18 Stephen Fryer wrote: > > Stephen Fryer wrote: > > Faulkner guesses > > that b3g here means "sight" - though with a question mark - the eye > > determinative(?) following it is a puzzle. > > > > I have a feeling that there is some reference here from the Pyramid > > texts or offin texts that we are missing. If we had some idea of the > > allusion we might have a chance of making sense out of it. > > I checked the Coffin Texts. There is no place where Hbs bAg occurs. > However in Spell 237 (Vol.3, p.307), one of the sources uses the eye > determinative after bAg (translated as "languid one" in the CT index). Stephen, look in Budge's dictionary, page 477 a . There are several attestations of the writing "Hbs bg-t". That's all your "bAg" is--just a various spelling. The determinative (whatever it is) is there, too. I guess I have to say I feel rather irritated you did not even take my earlier suggestion into consideration. It's the Underworld we're talking about here--the "gateway" (see det. after sbx.t) to it! Forget about the "eye". The "eye" doesn't go with it. There is no spelling of "b3g" in the sense of "languor" or "weakness" that has an "eye" for the det. Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 18:54:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Learning about Reddjedet ;-P Hi, Moving right along... Mike brought us the following lines which came after what I had transliterated last time. Dd-jn Hm=f Then His Majesty said; mrj=j js st n3 Dd.y=k "But I want it, what you have told! ptr sy t3-rd-Dd.t Who is she, this Reddjedet?" The story then continues: Dd-jn Ddj Hm.t w`b pw n.y r` nb s3Xbw jwr.tj m Xrd.w xmt* n.y r` nb s3Xbw *numeral three jw Dd n=f r=s jw=sn r jrj.t j3.t twy mnx.t m t3 pn r Dr=f jw smsw n=sn jm.y r jrj.t wr-m3.w m jwnw wn-jn Hm=f jb=f w3.w r Dwj.t Hr=s Dd-jn Ddj ptr jr=f p3-jb jt.y `nx.w wD3.w snb.w nb=j jn jrj.tw Hr p3-Xrd.w xmt Dd.n=j k3 z3=k k3 z3=f k3 w` jm=s Dd-jn Hm=f msj=s jr=f zy nw rd-Dd.t Dd-jn Ddj msj=s m 3bd prj.t mD-djw* *numeral fifteen Dd-jn Hm=f jst* T3z.w n.y.w km.wy** Hsq.w b3k=j 3 n=s*** Ds=j *read jsT. **The reading has been obscure for a long time, but this is the latest theory. I had written it down during a class without the cite unfortunately, so I cannot tell you why. ***The {t} might be influenced by Late Egyptian writings? k3 m3n=j t3-Hw.t-nTr n.y.t r` nb s3Xbw Dd-jn Ddj k3 rdj=j xpr mw.w n.y.w mH fdw** Hr T3z.w n.y.w km.wy *numeral four. wD3 pw jrj.n Hm=f r `H=f Dd-jn Hm=f jmmj dj=tw m Hr n.y Ddj r pr z3-n.y-sw.t Hrw-dd=f Hmsj=f Hn`=f jrj `q.w=f m t3 x3* Hnq.t ds Sn.t** jw3 w`*** j3q.w xrS Sn.t *numeral one thousand. **numeral one hundred. numeral one. jrj-jn=tw mj wD.t nb.t Hm=f I think this is the best place to cut this off, since the story resumes in another locale after this point. Enjoy! Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 17:04:49 -0500 From: Saida To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West. P2, L18 Stephen Fryer wrote: > > Saida wrote: > > I don't get anything out of these lines that you guys get. That > > eye is not a determinative. Isn't it an imperative "See!"? It goes > > with the imperative that follows "Ask!" > > The sentence after the "eye" is a standard greeting formula "nD xrt > NAME" (lit. "I inquire about the health of NAME" = "How are you, NAME") > A very similar formula crops up frequently in the book of the dead: "nD > Hr=k NAME" usually translated "Hail to thee, NAME". > > If the "eye" sign is indeed part of this sentence, then it would have to> be iri "do". Let's think about this. That "hail to thee" business is "nD Hr". That is not what we have in the text. Last night I read these couple signs wrong, though. I thought they were "rxt" and "nD" (ask). What we really should have here is "nD xt" or "guardian". "nD r xt" is probably the same word. The "eye" determinative goes well with that concept and the final dets. of the scroll and three slashes are the proper ones for "watcher" or "guardian". I haven't been following the thread very closely, so I don't even know what's going on in the narrative. Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 11:27:54 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West. P5, L14-15 Michael Dyall-Smith wrote: > > REGARDING West. P5, L14-15 > > The first sentence seems a bit difficult, the second is pretty typical. I'll > attempt a transcription: > > Dd.in Hm=f, mri=i is st nA Dd.y=k > Then said his majesty, .......???? > OK, we have a verb, _mri_ (love, wish,desire) joined to a suffix > pronoun =i (I, me). It is bare, ie. no starting particle (eg. iw, mk, etc.). > Is it geminated (ambiguous in the text)? I think probably not. A bare, ungeminated sDm=f opening a sentence, would be "prospective" (I prefer to think "modal" - it reminds me not to try to tranlate it as future). So it means "I would like...." -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 19:47:23 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West. P2, L18 Saida wrote: > Stephen Fryer wrote: > > The sentence after the "eye" is a standard greeting formula "nD xrt > > NAME" (lit. "I inquire about the health of NAME" = "How are you, NAME") > > If the "eye" sign is indeed part of this sentence, then it would > have to> be iri "do". > > Let's think about this. That "hail to thee" business is "nD Hr". True, but please note that the FIRST sentence of my explanation is what we have here (I'll explain the confusion in a moment - patience) > Thatis not what we have in the text. Last night I read these couple signs > wrong, though. I thought they were "rxt" and "nD" (ask). What we > really should have here is "nD xt" or "guardian". "nD r xt" is probably > the same word. I think the confusion here is arising from a convention in hieroglyphics of arranging the signs into neat little blocks. This doesn't work out very well when there are three signs in a word of which the first and last are low narrow signs, and the middle one is a low braod sign (examples are xft and xrt). Taking xft as our example, they would have to write: x or f f t x t neither of which arrangements makes a nice neat block. So they rearranged the written order of the signs as: x t f So this group is read in the order top left, bottom, top right. This is a little different than the usual order. And that is what we have with this group of signs: x t r which reads xrt (add the plural sign and the scroll and you get xr.wt "condition" - see the greeting formula above). > The "eye" determinative I have never seen a determinative BEFORE its word elsewhere, so I don't think this can be one. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 20:01:58 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West. P2, L18 Saida wrote: > > I checked the Coffin Texts. There is no place where Hbs bAg occurs. > > However in Spell 237 (Vol.3, p.307), one of the sources uses the eye > > determinative after bAg (translated as "languid one" in the CT index). > > Stephen, look in Budge's dictionary, page 477 a . There are several > attestations of the writing "Hbs bg-t". That's all your "bAg" is--just > a various spelling. The determinative (whatever it is) is there, too. I > guess I have to say I feel rather irritated you did not even take my > earlier suggestion into consideration. It's the Underworld we're talking > about here--the "gateway" (see det. after sbx.t) to it! Forget about > the "eye". The "eye" doesn't go with it. There is no spelling of "b3g" > in the sense of "languor" or "weakness" that has an "eye" for the det. My apologies for your irritation. Actually I think we're pretty much on the same side here, except that I always like to dig a little deeper to make sure I really understand what is going on. Several points: 1) I don't have Budge's dictionary. Faulkner has many words on the verbal root bAgi. His only reference to bg is to say it is a variant and see bAgi. 2) I believe the eye does go with it (it shows up that way in the coffin texts too). I think possibly the explanation is (and this is what I am trying to get a handle on) that the Egyptians did use "weary" and "weary of heart" as euphemisms for the dead. The eye determinative could make it mean something like "ghost" - similar concepts are behind our words "spectre" and "spectral" which derive from Latin spectare "to see." I would like to feel a little more confident about this, so I have been digging a little before saying anything. 3) Why would Djedi think it would be somthing acceptable as well-wishing to hope that the prince will find the door to the underworld? Perhaps it has a relationship to the concepts in classical mythology of entering the gates of the underworld to consult ancestral ghosts? -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 09:23:06 -0500 From: Saida To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West. P2, L18 Stephen Fryer wrote: > 3) Why would Djedi think it would be somthing acceptable as well-wishing > to hope that the prince will find the door to the underworld? Perhaps > it has a relationship to the concepts in classical mythology of entering > the gates of the underworld to consult ancestral ghosts? Well, these questions made me go back and re-read this part of the text (which I had translated once up to the point we are discussing now). I should have done this in the first place before trying to puzzle out the meaning of just one line. You are right in that this is all about salutation, although I still don't understand how "nD xrt" comes out to be "greetings"--I don't see this attestation in my dictionary--but as it is repeated in the text previous to line 18--that is what it must be. Anyway, Djedi is expressing his "good wishes" to the prince. First he says, "May he (Khufu) advance your position among the venerable ones". At first glance all this looked like "imperative" stuff to me, but now I see that it hangs on the term "may". Then it's "may your ka fight with your enemy". Somehow, this seems to be an Egyptian expression of good wishes--may everything go smoothly after you are dead! So we get to the phrase in question, Line 18, transliterated by Geoff as rx bA=k wA.w.t afd.t r sbx.t n.y.t Hbs bAg(y.w)! It may well be "May your ba recognize the way to the portal of He Who Clothes the Weary" !!! It may still be what I thought before "to the portal of the Underworld". But there are two determinatives, the *man holding the stick* and the *eye*. Their presence makes me feel that somebody is "doing" something. The *man with the stick* usually means "agression", but maybe he has a "special" instrument. I can't tell, though. It looks just a stick to me here. Well, if the "Weary" is the dead person here, then the one who "covers" him has got to be the embalmer when he wraps the mummy. He is, in effect, dressing or "clothing" the corpse. So it is not really "hiding" or "covering" in the sense that previously confused us. The determinative for "clothing" was a valuable hint to me here. Perhaps the *eye* being there is a determinative specifying an act rather than a place like "Hbs bg-t" which, according to Budge, means "that which covers the dead"--the Underworld. Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 10:46:53 -0500 From: Saida To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West. P2, L18 Stephen Fryer wrote: (in two separate posts) > > The sentence after the "eye" is a standard greeting formula "nD xrt > NAME" (lit. "I inquire about the health of NAME" = "How are you, >NAME") > A very similar formula crops up frequently in the book of the dead: "nD > Hr=k NAME" usually translated "Hail to thee, NAME". > If the "eye" sign is indeed part of this sentence, then it would have >to be iri "do". >I checked the Coffin Texts. There is no place where Hbs bAg occurs. >However in Spell 237 (Vol.3, p.307), one of the sources uses the eye >determinative after bAg (translated as "languid one" in the CT index). I wonder why--but if it's attested there, the *eye* should belong to "bAg", I suppose. I wonder what the phrase in the CT says where it's used. Still, we may have to accept, then, that "weary" or "languid" has nothing in common with "doing", so it's mysterious det. Also, the dead don't do much "seeing", either. Unless the *eye* is just a simplification of the *weeping eye* det. This could certainly be associated with death. Curiously, although "bg" means "weary" (read "dead tired"), "bg3" means "weeping. I am still wondering about "nD xrt". I accept it is a kind of address, like "nd Hr.k", but what does it literally mean? Could its meaning be very different from "greetings to your face"? "xrt", after all, has various abstract meanings and it also means ones possessions or property. Any ideas? Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 20:19:30 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West. P2, L18 Saida wrote: > I am still wondering about "nD xrt". I accept it is a kind of address, > like "nD Hr.k", but what does it literally mean? Could its meaning be > very different from "greetings to your face"? "xrt", after all, has > various abstract meanings and it also means ones possessions or > property. Any ideas? I think that, since xr.wt can mean "condition," I presume as a derivative of "belongings," nD xr.wt is "Asking about the condition of NAME." This is similar to English "How do you do?" (and its Western derivative "Howdy") or "How are you?" (and its abbreviated version "Hi!") or "How's things?" Other languages have similar expressions: French "Comment ca va?"; German "Wie geht es Ihnen?" (or "Wie geht's?") It looks as though this expression was used when addressing someone in the third person (formal/respect usage?) like saying to the Prince "How is the Prince." Similar to not speaking TO the king, but IN THE PRESENCE of the king ("Dd.n.f xr Hm.f" rather than "Dd.n.f n Hm.f"). Egypt was a stratified society, and formal distinctions of respect and politeness levels tend to go with such a society. It has pretty much broken down in English (especially North American) and is currently falling apart quite rapidly in Japanese as the stratification weakens. The nD Hr formula seems a little more informal - allowing direct address. Remember that the preposition Hr can mean "about," so nD Hr=k is "Asking about you," or maybe "May one ask about you?" -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:54:50 -0500 From: Saida To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL How Do You Do?? I wrote: > I am still wondering about "nD xrt". I accept it is a kind of >address, > like "nd Hr.k", but what does it literally mean? Could its meaning be > very different from "greetings to your face"? "xrt", after all, has > various abstract meanings and it also means ones possessions or > property. Any ideas? Someone from the list was kind enough to point out that it is read as "ask condition" with the implication of "How are you?" This person has offered to send me some examples of the usage of "nD xrt", which I will gladly study. I only hope the other attestations make more sense than here on Page 2 of the pWestcar. My point is that the King's son, Hardedef, makes this speech upon encountering the relic, Djedi: "Your condition is like that of a man before old age, etc....Yet you sleep until dawn, free from ailments with scarcely a moan." And then, the next question "How do you do, Venerable One?" ??? Why should Hardedef say that when he has just sized up Djedi verbally, telling him how he looked to him, which was to say in pretty good shape for the shape he was in? That was Line 10. Not long after this Djedi says "Welcome, welcome Hardedef, king's son, beloved of his father! May your father King Khufu (the vindicated) favor you. May he raise you to a position among the great ones. May your ka fight with your enemy and may your ba rocognize the way to the portal of the One Who Clothes the Weary..." And then "How do you do, prince?" It just doesn't seem to fit with the narrative in both cases. Shouldn't "How Do You Do" come first in the normal course of things? Also, why wouldn't it be "xrt=k" if it were the prince's health or condition which was being asked after? Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 13:41:23 -0500 From: Saida To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West. P2, L18 Stephen Fryer wrote: > > Saida wrote: > > > I am still wondering about "nD xrt". I accept it is a kind of address, > > like "nD Hr.k", but what does it literally mean? Could its meaning be > > very different from "greetings to your face"? "xrt", after all, has > > various abstract meanings and it also means ones possessions or > > property. Any ideas? Stephen: > I think that, since xr.wt can mean "condition," I presume as a > derivative of "belongings," nD xr.wt is "Asking about the condition of > NAME." This is similar to English "How do you do?" (and its Western > derivative "Howdy") or "How are you?" (and its abbreviated version > "Hi!") or "How's things?" Other languages have similar expressions: > French "Comment ca va?"; German "Wie geht es Ihnen?" (or "Wie >geht's?") Yes, but this sort of interrogation is apparently (at least to me) not going on in either "(i)nD Hr" or "nD xrt". I have looked through the entire Book of the Dead and I can't find "(i)nD Hr" spelled with anything but the *snake*. If anyone else can find this address spelled differently, let me know. I'd bet you won't find it. True, the term "nD", in different contexts from "(i)nD Hr" is variously spelled with or without the snake, but it does, most of the time, contain the *pot* in the spellings that refer to "ask, discuss, consult, argue, etc." Plus, the "(i)nD" in "(i)nD Hr" very often has the *scroll* det., marking it as an abstract concept. I can only see this occurring one time in the case of "nD" as "ask, etc." in the term "nDwt r3" (consultation). In other words, a noun, when the rest of the time "nD" is a verb. By this reasoning, "(i)nD" in "(i)nD Hr" is also a noun, probably with the meaning of something like "homage", an abstract concept, after all. However, "nD xrt", at least as we see it in the pWestcar Page 2, has only got the *scroll* after "xrt". Clearly then, the "xrt" is the abstract term. However, I have a feeling that "xrt" might not have the meaning of health or state or anything connected with that concept. The "nD" part does seem to be "ask", though. It bothers me, as I said before, that the phrase should be just "ask health" instead of "ask your health". If I saw an attestation of "nD xrt=k" I might feel differently. I would like to know more about this, but, for now, I have the suspicion that this phrase "nD xrt" might, strangely enough, be something like "ask fate" or "beg fate" or "God willing", "it should only stay this way or be this way" or "let nothing prevent it from being this way"--in short-- "knock on wood". One of these days, when I see other attestations of the usage other than the Westcar, I might change my mind. But look at the context on page 2. Hardedef has just told Djedi what remarkable shape he is in. The phrase occurs. Then, after Djedi expresses his good wishes for Hardedef, the phrase occurs again. I am accustomed to ancient modes of expression via Hebrew and Yiddish and, in these tongues, every time one makes a wish or gives a compliment, there is a prefix or follow-up of expressions like "alevai" (it should only happen) Hebrew "kinneh horeh" (may no evil eye fall upon it, him, her) Hebrew "Gott soll opheeten" (God forbid) Yiddish "hallileh" (it should never happen) Hebrew I feel expressions like this must have existed among the superstitious Egyptians, too. Where are they? Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 15:31:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Nefertum Chapel or not? Due to lack of interest, I am wondering whether I should bother keeping these images up on my page. Could people please let me know if you are using these images, if you are interested in translating them, or what? I have posted several things about them and received very little response. Does this indicate that the list is simply not interested, or is it that people are just going about things silently, not wishing to interact? My reasons for putting them up were in order to stimulate some activity on this list, and hopefully help it accomplish some of its goals. If you want to keep on getting interesting things you are going to have to participate and make it clear that these things are appreciated, otherwise there seems no logic in constantly going to great troubles to put things up when no one seems to be using them. Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 01:52:23 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL West. P5, L.16-20 To: to AEL REGARDING West. P5, L.16-20 Thanks to Geoff's transliteration the story moves on! The king has just asked Djedi "Who is this Redjedjet?? Here is my attempt at translating the last lines of page 5. [Mike D-S]. Line 16: Dd-in Ddi, "Hm.t wab pw n.y ra nb sAXbw" Then said Djedi, " She is the wife of a (wab-)priest of Ra, Lord of [sAXbw=a name of a city]" NOTES: I can't find the name of the city in Faulkner. The spoken sentence conforms to a typical bipartite nominal pattern where the 'pw' has moved up and into the nominal clause (Wife of a priest of Ra). The extra title, 'Lord of SAXbw' is tacked on the end (in apposition). Line 17: iwr.ti m Xrd.w xmt n.y ra nb sAXbw "She is pregnant with 3 children of Ra, Lord of [a name of a city]" NOTES: The first verb is a stative form. This sentence I suppose really follows on (since the subject of the stative always comes before the verb), so should be rendered, "Who is..." . The subject is found way back in the previous line ('pw' = she). Lines 18-20: iw Dd n=f r=s, "iw=sn r iri.t iA.t twy mnx.t m tA pn r Dr=f iw smsw n=sn im.y r iri.t wr-mA.w m iwnw" He (ie. Ra) told (to) her "They shall be appointed potent positions (offices) within this (entire) land. The eldest of them therein will be made(/become/be appointed) Greatest of Seers in On (Heliopolis). NOTES: The transliteration of the first verb probably needs a dot after Dd, Dd.n=f, so past tense form (sDm.n=f). OK? wr-mA.w = a very high priestly position I don't like my translation of the first sentence. It is all nominal, with an infinitive (r iri.t) followed by nouns and adjectives. I don't quite understand how they fit together,ie. I expected an 'r' or 'm' after 'r iri.t', be appointed TO high offices. Also, what is the significance of 'twy'? (why use that particulary pronoun?). Looking forward to lots of grammatical comments. Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ============================================================================== From: "Marycarol" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Nefertum Chapel Pictures Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 13:40:45 -0500 Mark Vygus solved the problem of saving all the picture files! Thanks. I've had no problem downloading the "Nefertum Chapel Pictures" on my PC using IE. Thanks for ALL the work, Geoff Graham! Marycarol ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 15:52:40 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL West. P2, L1 Hello, Michael Dyall-Smith writes: > REGARDING West. P2, L1 > > xr-m-xt spr=f r Ddi > "Now after he reached Djedi" or "Afterwards he reached Djedi" > There was a discussion about whether it is a subordinate clause, and this > impinges on my question:- > What is the verb form of spr=f ? If it is aorist/circumstantial AND and > independent sentence, then where does it get its past tense from? The context? First, it's not a typo :-) in fact, the form "xr-m-xt spr=f' occurs three times (all in the Kheops/Djedi story). The other xr m-xt in the text are followed by Noun Phrase + Old perfective. There are in fact a number of cases when one would wait for a accomplished verb form and one finds a simple sDm=f (for example, later : aHa.n Snt RwDDdt xt n tA wbAyt). I find this problem rather tricky. However, in the case of xr-m-xt spr=f we might have a simple circumstancial sDm=f. Remember that sDm.n=f is not a past tense : it's an accomplished, that is, at some point in time, the action is finished ; the point might be past, present, or even future. In general, the context gives the tense, not the verb form. If we try a circumstancial, we get : Now, afterwards, when he reached Djedji, the sedan chair was put down. (note that then you must cut : xr / m-xt / spr=f then / after / when... and not xr/ m-xt spr=f then / after he came This understanding of xr-m-xt is backed up by (late egyptian) examples where m-xt is followed by prepositional phrases. There could be middle egyptian ones somewhere, but I haven't got them at hand. Example (two brothers): xr-ir m-xt, Hr tr n rwhA, wn.in pAy.f sn aA (Hr) wHa r pAy.f pr. and later, in the evening, his elder brother came back home ) but the sentence : xr m-xt spr=f wa r wa aHa.n pA smn aHa Hr gAgA is then a little problematic : it would be Then, when one (part) met the other, the goose stood up cackling (BTW, the form aHa.n NP + old perfective has a resultative meaning ; that is, it shows that the goose standing up is the result of previous actions. In french, I would translate l'oie se retrouva debout, ` cacquetter. In english, I cant' find a good equivalent, perhaps the goose found itself standing up and cackling To express the sentencewithout the resultative meaning, the scribe would have written : * aHa pw irw.n pA smn iw=f Hr gAgA (so english and french goose say 'cack ! cack !' and egyptian one said g.3 ! g.3 ! another question for Geoffrey :-) ) I'd rather see one part reach the other, and then, the goose standing. But on the whole, the hypothesis of a circumstancial sDm=f seems quite plausible. regards, ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 15:52:59 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL How Do You Do?? Saida writes: > rocognize the way to the portal of the One Who Clothes the Weary..." > And then "How do you do, prince?" It just doesn't seem to fit with the > narrative in both cases. Shouldn't "How Do You Do" come first in the > normal course of things? Also, why wouldn't it be "xrt=k" if it were > the prince's health or condition which was being asked after? > > Marianne Luban A rather good interpretation of this line is supposing it to be a comment by the text's narrator : then you have : Greetings from Djedefhor nD-xrt imAxy pw => "it is the salutation for a venerable one" greetings from Djedji nD-xrt sA-nswt pw => "it is the salutation for a prince" ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 20:34:10 -0500 From: Saida To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL How Do You Do?? Serge Rosmorduc wrote: > Saida writes: > > rocognize the way to the portal of the One Who Clothes the Weary..." > > And then "How do you do, prince?" It just doesn't seem to fit with the > > narrative in both cases. Shouldn't "How Do You Do" come first in the > > normal course of things? Also, why wouldn't it be "xrt=k" if it were > > the prince's health or condition which was being asked after?Serge: > > A rather good interpretation of this line is supposing it to be a > comment by the text's narrator : then you have : > > Greetings from Djedefhor > nD-xrt imAxy pw > => "it is the salutation for a venerable one" > greetings from Djedji > nD-xrt sA-nswt pw > => "it is the salutation for a prince" Very interesting, Serge. This certainly makes more sense than "How do you do?" I mean, under the circumstances, why wouldn't the men say to each other "Pti tri xrt=k" (What then is thy condition?) Wouldn't that be more polite, anyway? Or is that a later interrogative form? I found it in the Book of the Dead. Can you explain, though, the justification for reading "it is the salutation for " from "nD xrt"? Isn't the "nD" (as in "(i)nD Hr" and having the meaning of "homage" or "salutation" always spelled with the *snake*? And how would the "xrt" come into it in that interpretation? Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 21:04:46 -0500 From: Saida To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West. P5, L.16-20 Michael Dyall-Smith wrote: > > REGARDING West. P5, L.16-20 > > Thanks to Geoff's transliteration the story moves on! The king has just asked > Djedi "Who is this Redjedjet?? Here is my attempt at translating the last > lines of page 5. > [Mike D-S]. > > Line 16: > Dd-in Ddi, "Hm.t wab pw n.y ra nb sAXbw" > Then said Djedi, " She is the wife of a (wab-)priest of Ra, > Lord of [sAXbw=a name of a city]" > NOTES: I can't find the name of the city in Faulkner. S3xbw is in Lower Egypt-- Nome 2. > The spoken sentence conforms to a typical bipartite nominal > pattern > where the 'pw' has moved up and into the nominal clause (Wife of a priest of > Ra). > The extra title, 'Lord of SAXbw' is tacked on the end (in apposition). > > Line 17: > iwr.ti m Xrd.w xmt n.y ra nb sAXbw > "She is pregnant with 3 children of Ra, Lord of [a name of a city]" > NOTES: The first verb is a stative form. This sentence I suppose really > follows on (since the subject of the stative always comes before the verb), so > should be rendered, "Who is..." . The subject is found way back in the > previous line ('pw' = she). > > Lines 18-20: > iw Dd n=f r=s, "iw=sn r iri.t iA.t twy mnx.t m tA pn r Dr=f > iw smsw n=sn im.y r iri.t wr-mA.w m iwnw" > > He (ie. Ra) told (to) her "They shall be appointed potent positions (offices) > within this (entire) land. The eldest of them therein will be made(/become/be > appointed) Greatest of Seers in On (Heliopolis). > NOTES: > The transliteration of the first verb probably needs a dot after Dd, Dd.n=f, > so past tense form (sDm.n=f). OK? > wr-mA.w = a very high priestly position > I don't like my translation of the first sentence. It is all nominal, with an > infinitive (r iri.t) followed by nouns and adjectives. I don't quite > understand how they fit together,ie. I expected an 'r' or 'm' after 'r iri.t', > be appointed TO high offices. Also, what is the significance of 'twy'? (why > use that particulary pronoun?). I like better "it is said of them" or "of whom it is said". 'twy" is necessary here because the positions of the children will be over the entire "land". Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 23:45:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL West. P5, L.16-20 Hi, Mike, You are getting better and better every time. > Line 16: > Dd-in Ddi, "Hm.t wab pw n.y ra nb sAXbw" > Then said Djedi, " She is the wife of a (wab-)priest of Ra, > Lord of [sAXbw=a name of a city]" > NOTES: I can't find the name of the city in Faulkner. This is a hapax legomenon, and we just call it "Sakhebu" in English. The location of the town is believed to be in the Western Delta someplace. > Line 17: > iwr.ti m Xrd.w xmt n.y ra nb sAXbw > "She is pregnant with 3 children of Ra, Lord of [a name of a city]" > NOTES: The first verb is a stative form. This sentence I suppose really > follows on (since the subject of the stative always comes before the verb), so > should be rendered, "Who is..." . The subject is found way back in the > previous line ('pw' = she). Yes, this has to be part of the same sentence. You are right. > Lines 18-20: > iw Dd n=f r=s, "iw=sn r iri.t iA.t twy mnx.t m tA pn r Dr=f > iw smsw n=sn im.y r iri.t wr-mA.w m iwnw" > > He (ie. Ra) told (to) her "They shall be appointed potent positions (offices) > within this (entire) land. The eldest of them therein will be made(/become/be > appointed) Greatest of Seers in On (Heliopolis). OK, here you have problems. You are right, I guess there needs to be a dot in Dd.n=f. It should say: iw Dd.n=f r=s, iw=sn r iri.t iA.t twy mnx.t m tA pn r Dr=f iw smsw n=sn im.y r iri.t wr-mA.w m iwnw He (Djedi) said about them (sometimes the pronoun =s is substituted for =sn) (that) they shall exercise this potent office in this entire land, and their eldest shall become Greatest-of-Seers (High Priest of Re) in Heliopolis. twy is an Old Egyptian demonstrative (pwy, twy, nwy). ==============================================================================