From: "Sue Couttie" To: Subject: AEL Help with a translation Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 19:10:40 +1000 Hello All, A short time ago I asked for some help with any possible translation of some hieroglyphs I have on an applique wall hanging. I thank those who have responded to me thus far, but would like to ask the group again if anyone can finally say whether or not these have any possible meaning. I understand that it's unlikely that it's the case, but to date have not had confirmation from anyone. I have posted a .pdf file here.... http://www.users.bigpond.com/scouttie/glyphen.pdf Thanks again, Tony Fram, Melbourne, Australia ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:13:09 -0800 (PST) From: Michelle Subject: AEL Pronouns To: List Manager In the Collier/Manley guide(Chapter 7) they keep mentioning the independent pronoun(the ink form) and the dependant pronoun(the =i form).Would someone please give me a hint as to what the difference between the two types of pronouns is?(In English grammar, not Egyptian) Thanks! Michelle ============================================================================== From: "giuseppe papola" To: Subject: AEL Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 19:19:21 +0200 Hello, how do the egyptians sayd brothel, whorehouse ? So thanking ahead ! Regards, Phe ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:28:39 -0800 (PST) From: Brandon Wiseman Subject: Re: AEL Tutankhamun's Gilded Shrines To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Chris, From my understanding, what i got out of it, was that the enemies weren't necessarily giving up and worshipping Ra, rather they were acknowledging their descension and turning their appraisal toward the victoring being (the new "itself"), they were acknowledging in their eyez: truth. I see it as a significance piece; it was to be greatly enlightening, therefore, a cort sentence can not fully convey its importance or its message. "which each stone; there is a story". Just an opinion though, -Llavez- Chavez --- Christopher Busch wrote: > > >From Jon Bodsworth's website: > Tutankhamun's Gilded Shrines > http://home.freeuk.net/jon.bodsworth/12.jpg > http://home.freeuk.net/jon.bodsworth/13.jpg > http://home.freeuk.net/jon.bodsworth/14.jpg > > Comments on > http://home.freeuk.net/jon.bodsworth/13.jpg > > D36-D26-Y5 ! > (Apep's) spit causing suffering > S3-Z3-N14 ! > our worship > D26-V13-Z3 ! > your much spit > G38-Z3-N14 ! > many tending worship. > S3-S3-S3-S3-V13-E23-Z3-G38-Y5 ! > These of many gods tend to suffering > W11-S3-I14-D26-Z3-Y5-S3 > the serpent looked at its suffering. > > >From the Cat's perspective: > The cat is saying: G35-V28-?-M16-M16 > "Go in, I'll strike. Get back! Get back!" > I think the snake is Apep, and the headless folks > are > the damned as in the book of AmDuat. > > Ironically, the enemies of Ra are sliced and stacked > to praise Ra. > Starting with the star and the severed head and > working downwards, (N14-D2-N8-N5) states > 'People worship upon Ra.' > > The 1st dead one: > N31-I15-G38-N14-D2-N8-N5 ! > 'Itself tends way, people worship upon Ra.' > > The 2nd dead one: > N31-D2-Z1-N14-D2-N8-N5 > 'Face (of person) ways, people worship upon Ra.' > > I believe it means, that the enemy gave up and > worshiped Ra. > > Any comments? ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 13:41:52 -0800 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: "Judith L Sebesta" Subject: AEL query on offering formula Regarding the standard offering formula, viz. An offering that the king gives to Osiris, foremost of Westerners, the great god, lord of Abydos, and of Wepwawet, lord of the Sacred Land, so that he* may give a voice offering of bread and beer, cattle and fowl, linen and Who is the "he*"---the king or the god? Various translations I have read of this formula seem to imply it could be one or the other. with thanks for any reply, -- -- Professor Judith Lynn Sebesta, Chair East Hall 204 Department of History 414 East Clark St. U of South Dakota Vermillion SD 57069 ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 22:30:05 +0200 (MEST) From: Mark-Jan Nederhof Subject: AEL align peasant To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk My moderate attempt to keep up. For the following, I must favour Mark's reading. See Loprieno, p. 170, for this exact sentence. jw=k sbA.tj jw=k wbA.tj jw=k <292> twt(.tj) ; You are educated, enlightened <292> and accomplished, n js n awn ; but not for cheating! My translation is slightly different from Mark's and Jerome's, following Parkinson. jw=k jrr=k twtw bw-nb ; You act the same as everyone, My reading below differs from most published translations, but these do not convince me. I propose to read nwdw aqA as one phrase, meaning literally "deviating from righteousness" or something of that nature (in the below simply "corrupt"). Other readings tend to take aqA as the start of a new phrase, which seems supported by the fact that in version B2 (as in Jenny's transcription) aqA is followed by "n bw-nb", but in fact, could one not also interpret "nwdw aqA n bw-nb" as "deviating from righteousness, concerning every man"? Less literally this could be: "your environment is entirely corrupt", or "every man in your environment is corrupt". <293> jw hAw=k m nwdw aqA ; <293> and your environment is corrupt. # Note "n bw-nb" is absent from version B1. jA<294>Tj n tA r-Dr=f ; Molester of the entire land! Regards, Mark-Jan ============================================================================== From: "stucula" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2002 19:24:08 -0500 Subject: Re: AEL query on offering formula > > Regarding the standard offering formula, viz. > > An offering that the king gives to Osiris, foremost of Westerners, > the great god, lord of Abydos, and of Wepwawet, lord of the Sacred > Land, Hotep :) I've not posted in a bit... but this is interesting. Early on, Wepwawet was "Foremost of Westerners". His role was gradually assumed by Osiris, as Wepwawet (in thought and Iconography) merged with Anpu. With this "standard" formula (which I've never noticed before in this light), the two seem almost to be merged. Am I wrong here? > > so that he* may give a voice offering of bread and beer, cattle and > fowl, linen and > > Who is the "he*"---the king or the god? Various translations I > have read of this formula seem to imply it could be one or the other. The King? The God? Or the merged being? Is the King addressing himself as a newly-born Osiris? Or is he making a Royal donation to some Courtier's Memory (as in "Osiris {Name}" ? What is your Text Source? I'd like to look at the grammar of it myself, if it's available... Chinuajin > > with thanks for any reply, > -- > -- > Professor Judith Lynn Sebesta, Chair > East Hall 204 > Department of History > 414 East Clark St. > U of South Dakota > Vermillion SD 57069 > > FAX: 605-677-5568 Phone: 605-677-5218 > e-mail: jsebesta@usd.edu > www.usd.edu/~jsebesta > > "The gods love us more than we love ourselves." Juvenal. > Rubens carved this quotation on his garden gate. > > > ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2002 04:32:12 -0800 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Jerome Colburn Subject: AEL align peasant And here's the 7th Complaint: <297> iw.in rf sx.ty pn r spr n=f 7-nw sp ; <297> And, moreover, this peasant came to complain to him a seventh time. Dd=f <298> imy-rA pr wr nb=i ; He said, <298> "O chief overseer of the house, my lord, ntk Hmw n tA r Dr=f ; you are the rudder of the whole land, sqdd<299> tA xft wD.w=k ; the land sails <299> according to your command, ntk snw n DHw.ty <300> wDa nn rdi.t Hr gs ; you are a colleague of Thoth, <300> the incorruptible judge. nb wAH=k n is.wt s <301> r sp=f n wn maA ; Lord, you endure until man's old age <301> until his true time, m Snt ib=k nn ks.t ; Do not be angry and inflexible, # from ksi "bend down"? Not altogether satisfactory, because ksi seems to mean "prostrate oneself" <302> xpr Aw ib=i m Hwa ib=i ; <302> Let my joy come into existence out of my anxiety, # Aw-ib "joyful" lit. "long of heart", Hwa-ib "apprehensive" lit. "short of heart" m wA n iw.t.t iy.t ; Do not brood on what does not come, # Assuming *N35:D35 transposed (twice!), leading to "nonexistent-of-coming", "whose coming is nonexistent" <303> m Haw n iw.t.t xpr.t ; <303> do not rejoice at what does not occur. iw wxd sAw=f m xnms <304> sHtm=f sp xpr ; Forbearance prolongs friendship, <304> it destroys the fault that has occurred; n rx.n.tw wnn.t m ib ; what is in the heart is unknown. <305> xbA hp HD tp-Hsb ; <305> He who violates a law harms rectitude. # participles rather than infinitives ("to violate ... is to harm ...") because HD not HD.t nn mAr <306> anx HaDA.w=f n wSd sw mAa.t ; There is no wretched man <306> whose robber lives without justice questioning him. iw gr.t <307> X.t=i mH.t(i) ib=i Atp ; Now is <307> my body full, my heart laden, # cf. English "have a bellyful" pr(=i) is m X.t=i n a iry ; do I go out from my body for the present condition? <308> ng.t pw m dni.t mw=s Asw wn<309> rA=i r mD.t ; <308> A breach in a dam, with its water rushing, is the opening <309> of my mouth to speak. aHa A aHA.n=i mri=i ; Then would that I had plied my sounding pole, pnq.n=i <310> mwy=i ; bailed out <310> my water, snf.n=i nt.t m X.t=i ; breathed out what is in my body, # cf. English "spill one's guts" ia.n=i SAmw.w=i ; washed my dirty linen! <311> xn=i xpr ; <311> My speech has come into existence, mAr.w=i Dr xft Hr=k ; my misery is finished before your face. ptr <312> DArw=k ; What <312> do you need? iwsw=f sA=k r th.t=k ; The (beam of the) balance of him is what awaits you for you to go astray. # "him" presumably Thoth. sA must be a participle. iw awn ib=k <313> r swxA=k ; Your heart is covetous <313> to make you incompetent, iw snm=k r sxpr xrwy.w=k ; your greed will bring your enemy (?) into existence. <314> iniw=k swt r gm.t ky sx.ty mi.tw=i ; <314> But shall you find another peasant like me? <315> iniw wsfw spry r aHa r rA n pr=f ; <315> Shall a sluggard complainer stand toward the entrance of his house? <316> nn gr rdi.n=k mdw=f ; <316> There is none silent whom you have caused to speak, nn sDr rdi.n=k rs=f ; there is none asleep whom you have caused to wake, <317> nn xbA-Hr.w sspd.n=k ; <317> there is none downcast whom you have alerted, nn tm rA <318> wn.n=k ; there is no mouth shut <318> that you have opened, nn xm rdi.n=k rx=f ; there is none ignorant whom you have caused to know, nn wxA sbA.n=k ; there is none incompetent whom you have instructed, <319> Xsrw.w Dw.wt pw srw.w ; <319> Dispellers of evil are the magistrates, nb.w bw nfr pw ; they are lords of good, <320> wbA.w.t pw n.t sxpr-nt.t ; <320> they are the revealers of what causes that-which-is, Ts.w tp Hsq ; reattachers of the severed head!" ============================================================================== From: "mark" To: "AEL" Subject: AEL align peasant Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 00:28:44 +0100 version = B1 <301> r sp =f n wn mAa m Snt ib =k nn (n) =k st ; <301> for his occasion of being truthful. Do not be angry, it isn't for you. # i.e. in order for him to be truthful nn n =k after papyrus Berlin 3025 (B2) <302> xpr Aw Hr m Hwa ib m wA n ntt n iit ; <302> The farsighted becomes apprehensive. Do not brood over that which has not come. <303> m Haw n ntt n xprt iw wxd sAw =f m xnms ; <303> Do not rejoice over that which has not happened. Forebearance, it lengthens friendship, <304> sHtm =f sp xpr n rx n tw wnnt m ib ; <304> it destroys a fault that has happened. One does not know what exists in a heart <305> xbA hp HD tp-Hsb nn mAir ; <305> The law subverter, the standard destroyer, there is not a pauper <306> anx HaDAw =f n wSd n sw mAat iw grt ; <306> (still) alive whom he has plundered. Truth has not addressed him. Now, <307> Xt =i mHt ib =i Atp pr is m Xt =i n a iry ; <307> my body is full, my heart laden. What comes from my body because of its state, <308> ngt pw m dnit mw =s As wn ; <308> is a breach in a dam, its waters flowing fast <309> r =i mdt aHa A aHA n =i mri =i pnq n =i ; <309> (just as) my mouth opens in order to speak.Standing, I plied my sounding pole, I baled out <310> mwy =i snf n =i ntt m Xt =i iai n =i SAmw =i ; <310> my water, I emptied out what was in my body, I have washed my soiled clothes mark vygus ============================================================================== From: "Glen Woods" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL query on offering formula Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2002 01:04:51 +0100 Judith L Sebesta wrote: > Regarding the standard offering formula, viz. > > An offering that the king gives to Osiris, foremost of Westerners, > the great god, lord of Abydos, and of Wepwawet, lord of the Sacred > Land, > > so that he* may give a voice offering of bread and beer, cattle and > fowl, linen and > > Who is the "he*"---the king or the god? Initially I would have to say that we have to set aside our modern concept of language. We would take the word 'King' to be a male Monarch whereas, in their terms, 'King' (I believe) meant a living God (the intermediary between the earthly beings and the Gods 'in the sky' (the equivalent of 'Heaven' in many other religions). Next we have to consider 'Hotep di Nesw' and ask ourselves was it really the King or someone else that was utilising the King's position (it is implied that the King agreed to this) to put his offering forward? Thirdly we have the duality aspect, if we take as an example a stela from the tomb of a noble there is the stela itself and there is the person that reads the stela, of the departed, and provides the offerings and utters the name of the deceased (hence ensuring that the deceased had eternal life). Therefore, taking your English translation, I would say that 'An offering the King gives' would be an offering from an earthly person (be it from the King or a 'lesser being')to the God(s). I trust this helps, Glen Woods Brighton East Sussex England ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 06 Apr 2002 04:40:00 -0600 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Katherine Griffis-Greenberg Subject: RE: AEL query on offering formula At 01:04 AM 4/6/02 +0100, Glen Woods wrote: >Judith L Sebesta wrote: > >> Regarding the standard offering formula, viz. >> >> An offering that the king gives to Osiris, foremost of Westerners, >> the great god, lord of Abydos, and of Wepwawet, lord of the Sacred >> Land, >> >> so that he* may give a voice offering of bread and beer, cattle and >> fowl, linen and >> >> Who is the "he*"---the king or the god? Just to answer Judith's question first: it is the king to who gives the offering, on the deceased's behalf. The King acts as an intermediary to the gods on behalf of the deceased - it is one of his official duties (see reference below by Finnestad). Glen Woods wrote: >Initially I would have to say that we have to set aside our modern concept >of language. We would take the word 'King' to be a male Monarch whereas, in >their terms, 'King' (I believe) meant a living God (the intermediary= between >the earthly beings and the Gods 'in the sky' (the equivalent of 'Heaven' in >many other religions). The term here , though, is /nsw/ which is translated as "king," if it were to refer to the individual as /nTr nfr/ the "perfect/good god" that would fit your interpretation a tad closer, I think. However, in other contexts, it is apparent /nsw/ is talking about a regent of Egypt. >Next we have to consider 'Hotep di Nesw' and ask ourselves was it really= the >King or someone else that was utilising the King's position (it is implied >that the King agreed to this) to put his offering forward? Does this matter? It is the function of kingship in ancient Egypt to act as an intermediary to the gods and continue to protect/maintain his people , living and dead, with supplications to the divinities. Whether the actual person offering the formula, as listed in a /di htp nsw/ formula is the king, or his assigned officer, or even a family member offering as substitute, it is the _efficacy_ of the formula _as written_ which has the power. Just as members of the Roman Catholic faith or Judaism have ritual mentioining and prayers offered for their deceased by their respective religious institutions (The Catholics use the novena and the Jewish faith use Yahrzeit/Yizkor), it is a specific duty assigned to their religious clergy to protect and maintain the souls of the deceased. (for more information on these practices, see On Judaism: On Catholicism: [Specific novena prayer written by the organization of U.S. Catholic Bishops on behalf of those who died on September, 11, 2001) The idea of religious leaders offering specific services on behalf of a community of people is not an unknown concept for either ancient or modern times. On the pharaoh's specific duty to act on behlaf of the deceased mebers of the community, see: Finnestad, R. B. 1989. The Pharaoh and the "Democratization" of Post- Mortem Life. In G. Englund (ed.), _The Religion of the Ancient Egyptians: Cognitive Structures and Popular Expressions._ Uppsala: ACTA Universitatis Upsaliensis. 89-93. >Thirdly we have the duality aspect, if we take as an example a stela from >the tomb of a noble there is the stela itself and there is the person that >reads the stela, of the departed, and provides the offerings and utters the >name of the deceased (hence ensuring that the deceased had eternal life). > >Therefore, taking your English translation, I would say that 'An offering >the King gives' would be an offering from an earthly person (be it from the >King or a 'lesser being')to the God(s). The efficacy of the spoken word is a different matter, I think, than the idea of the efficacy of the /di htp nsw/ formula, however. Yes, to speak the name of the dead was to make them live again (they again spring to the remembrance of men): this was the function of the ubiquitous use of name /rn/ and image /twt/ of the deceased throughout the tomb. If one can see the deceased's image and assign a name to that image, then the invoked memory creates the entity of the afterlife called the Ka /kA/ and allows the eternal non-temporal portion of the human being, the Ba /bA/ to associate itself with its former temporal personality (/kA/) and form, the mummy /sAx/, which leads to the evtual merbing of elements into the akh= /Ax/. On this issue, see: Bolshakov, A. O. 1997. _Man and His Double in Egyptian Ideology of the Old Kingdom_. Series: =C4gypten und Altes Testament, Band 37. M. G=F6rg. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz. Englund, G. 1978. _Akh:: une notion religieuse dans l'Egypte pharaonique_. Boreas 11. (Uppsala: ACTA Univ.) Hornung, E. 1982. _Conceptions of God in Ancient Egypt: The One and the Many_. J. Baines. Ithaca: Cornell University Press. Zakbar, L. 1968 _A Study of the Ba Concept in Ancient Egyptian Texts_. (Chicago: Univ. of Chicago). Zandee,J. 1960. _Death as an Enemy According to Ancient Egyptian Conceptions_. Studies in the History of Religions V, Suppl. to Numen. (Leiden: Brill). HTH. Regards -- Katherine Griffis-Greenberg University of Alabama at Birmingham UAB Options/Special Studies http://www.griffis-consulting.com ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 07 Apr 2002 04:06:56 -0800 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Jerome Colburn Subject: Re: AEL align peasant At 12:28 AM 4/6/02 +0100, mark wrote: ><302> xpr Aw Hr m Hwa ib m wA n ntt n iit >; ><302> The farsighted becomes apprehensive. Do not brood over that which has >not come. Oh, of course -- a little face, not a little heart. Thanks for that and several other corrections, which I've put in an update. ><305> xbA hp HD tp-Hsb nn mAir >; ><305> The law subverter, the standard destroyer, there is not a pauper > ><306> anx HaDAw =f n wSd n sw mAat iw grt >; ><306> (still) alive whom he has plundered. Truth has not addressed him. Now, But Khunanup is still alive (whether the plunderer is meant to be Nemtnakhte or Rensy). Also I take HaDAw to be a participle on account of the -w ending. ********************************** * Jerome Colburn * jcolburn@soltec.net * im nfr mdw pn m bAH mryw mdw-nTr ********************************** ==============================================================================