Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 23:35:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Re(2): AEL Grammar the head on the Goose! ;-) Hi, Stephen, As usual you are really on the ball! Thanks for the very good questions. > > No, actually, jnj=tw is a subjunctive sDm=f. > > Perhaps you could clear up for me where subjunctive fits in the scheme > of the Egyptian verb. Am I correct that it is a function of the > prospective form, rather than a separate form (unlike Latin, for > example, where subjunctive is a sepearate verb form)? Well, actually in Old Egyptian the subjunctive and prospective were separate forms, but in Middle Egyptian they seem to have coalesced into one form. A good place to find the Old Kingdom information would be in James Allen's book on the verb in the Pyramid Texts. I can't remember its exact title right off hand. It was his dissertation. I would also tend > to see the w in this word as merely indicating that the t is pronounced > (anticipating Late-Egyptian spelling rules a little - there do appear to > be a number of instances of this in this text) - int rather than in=tw? As usual, you are quicker to pick up on these things than I am. You might be quite right. There might not be any =tw there at all. The verb jnj is one of those irregular ones which take an unexpected {t} in their subjunctive forms. The other ones that do this are jj and jw, both meaning "come" and probably realizations of the same verb in actuality. I think you are right, by George! I can't believe I missed this one. ;-) Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 10:40:54 -0700 From: n-ael@juno.com (Nancy2 R Tomasheski) Just wanted to let all know that I have not fallen off, nor am I simply lurking. Without going into unneccesary details, I have been very, very busy with other (much less interesting) crises. I will be back soon! P.S. Geoff, hang in there, buddy. We all respect you. -Nancy R. Tomasheski n-ael@juno.com ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 19:34:28 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL bocchoris The follwing message was sent yesterday, but due to technical difficulties outside of my control, could not be distributed to the list. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 12:00:22 +0300 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Dan-El Kahn Subject: Re: AEL bocchoris At 12:12 PM 7/24/97 -0700, you wrote: >the above named fellow supposedly received a prophecy from a lamb that the >assyrians were coming to wreak havoc. can anyone tell me the sources? > >chris hoffman > > > You might look for an answer at Gauthier, H. Livre de rois d'egypte III? 24th dynasty pp. 410 ff. varia Historica (articel in dutch) festschrift A.W. Byvank, "Over Farao Bocchoris" , J.M.A. Janssen, 1954, pp. 17-29. the prophecy was already mentioned by Manetho, 164, 266. it was also told in a Papyrus from the time of 7-8 a.d.(currently in viene), Diodorus Siculus i 65.1 -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 23:49:04 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: sfryer@prcn.org, AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Re: ane Shipwrecked Hieratic (NOTE : I feel the discussion about hieratic in the Shipwrecked sailor belong here more than in ANE, so I take the liberty to post my answer here. Basically Stephen Friers has asked a few questions about a) a hieratic sign in the shipwrecked sailor that looks like a 'r' and is read 't'. b) numbers in hieratic c) a question about the orientation change in the papyrus : the first pages are written in column, and the last ones in lines As for the 't', as Geoffrey said, its shape depends a lot of its position. When a text is written in columns, (for example here of in the Peasantc), 't' alone on a line tend to be column-wide. About the change of orientation : I had a quick look, but I couldn't find some reference to it in my books. I have some idea, though : This kind of change is not that rare : it also happens in the Hymn to Sesostris III from Licht. Column writting was kept much later for religious texts, so we can supposed that it was felt to be nearer to the hieroglyphs than line writting, and thus classier. It was also longer to write. So, the scribe started writting in column, andd after a while, decided he had done enough 'classy' hieratic, and reverted to his normal dayly practice, possible explanations are : * the original was written in column, and the scribe started copying it, then changed his mind. * He wanted to write the whole text in column, but decided to hurry * He wanted to have a nice text at the beginning (but this one doesn't hold much, because almost half of the text is in column) BTW, You can find some information on hieratic signs in Georges Siffrah, l'histoire universelle des chiffres. regards, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) 5, rue Beranger 92240 Malakoff tel 01 48 70 37 13 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/HyperNews/get/HieroNews.html ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 21:13:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Re: ane Shipwrecked Hieratic Hi, Guys, > a) a hieratic sign in the shipwrecked sailor that looks like a 'r' > and is read 't'. > As for the 't', as Geoffrey said, its shape depends a lot of its > position. When a text is written in columns, (for example here of in > the Peasantc), 't' alone on a line tend to be column-wide. One more thought on this sign might be appropriate, Stephen. Remember that the original form of the 2nd person plural pronoun would have been =Tn rather than =tn. The {T} looks identical to the {r} in hieratic too, so not only is it likely that size considerations influenced it, but also the scribe could have opted to write the pronoun in its older form. Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== From: bbooth@umr.edu Subject: AEL curiosity To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:11:04 -0500 (CDT) Hello all, I am a new member on the list. I found it while doing a search on egyptian heiroglyphs(sp?). I was wondering if there are any good beginning books or computer programs from which to learn the basics of heiroglyphs? I am interested, but do not know quite how to start. Thanks for any help you can give. -Aidan ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 15:55:49 -0500 From: Saida To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL curiosity bbooth@umr.edu wrote: > > Hello all, I am a new member on the list. I found it while doing a > search on egyptian heiroglyphs(sp?). I was wondering if there are any > good beginning books or computer programs from which to learn the basics > of heiroglyphs? I am interested, but do not know quite how to start. > Thanks for any help you can give. Hello, Aidan I have two very good books here for beginners. The best is "Egyptian Hieroglyphics--How To Read and Write Them" by Stephane Rossini, Dover Publications ISBN 0-486-26013-5. Another, more in-depth one is "Reading the Past--Egyptian Hieroglyphs" by W.V. Davies, University of California Press/British Museum ISBN 0-520-06287-6 Both books are excellent in the pictorial sense, too. Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 20:34:44 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List , bbooth@umr.edu Subject: Re: AEL curiosity bbooth@umr.edu wrote: > Hello all, I am a new member on the list. I found it while doing a > search on egyptian heiroglyphs(sp?). Welcome to the list. The i goes in front of the e: hieroglyph. If you've seen Stargate, try pronouncing it the way Viveca Lindfors did, that should remind you which goes first! > I was wondering if there are any > good beginning books or computer programs from which to learn the > basics > of heiroglyphs? I am interested, but do not know quite how to start. Well there are a number of resources on the Web that could be useful to you, which are listed on my home pages ( http://home.prcn.org/~sfryer/egypt.html ), but I'll give them here as well: Reading Hieroglyphs - The First Steps ( http://www.netvision.be/egyptologica/e_hiero.htm ) is a good starting page for learning about how the system worked, and the sounds represented by most of the common signs. A Short Introduction to Hieroglyphs ( http://khety.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/Intro/Intro.html ) also starts by talking about how the system worked and the values of some of the signs, but also gives you a bit of an introduction to reading some of the common types of inscriptions. If you are using a Macintosh computer, there is an excellent program called Scribe of KMT to help learn the sounds of the hieroglyphs which you can download from the CCER (Center for Computer aided Egyptological Research). Their home page is http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/ccer/ (I was going to give you the exact download address, but their server isn't answering at the moment. An excellent book for learning not only the hieroglyphs but also some basic vocabulary and grammar of the ancient Egyptian language is _Introducing Egyptian Hieroglyphs_ by Barbara Watterson (One nice thing is that she doesn't assume you are an expert at English grammar, so she explains the Egyptian grammar very carefully). The web pages are, of course immediately available. The books that Marianne suggested, and this one, may be available from your local library (even here on the Northwest edge of the universe, they managed to get them in for me!). And when you get stuck (we all do) you can ask the people on this list and we'll do what we can to unstick you! Best wishes -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 31 Jul 97 22:42:06 UT From: "mark vygus" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL curiosity bbooth@umr.edu asked about books on hieroglyphs for beginners.A book I found helpful was "The Name of the Dead - Tutankhamun Translated" by Hany Assaad & Daniel Kolos Published by Benben Publications - 1979 in Mississauga, Ontario, Canada ISBN 0-920808-00-X It gives the Hieroglyphic / Transliteration / Translation of some of the inscribed finds from the tomb, and was helpful in seeing how the language works.It also helps to impress friends when you can read what is written on the golden mask ! yours Mark ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 03 Aug 1997 09:12:20 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Westcar.sit file To: to AEL REGARDING Westcar.sit file My apologies to those having trouble downloading the Westcar website file. I think it works OK for Mac's but I've had one person e-mail me about problems downloading to windows machines. It may take a little while to sort out but Mark Wilson gave me this tip (below line). The image files seem to be the biggest problem. Anyone having failures (or success) could they please e-mail me privately so I know how it is going. Also, I am back from holiday, and spent some time going through the discussion of the first 2 pages of Westcar. I must admit I found it very informative and can see it being extremely useful to students for many years to come. Reading through the postings also brought many more questions to light, which I hope to post in the near future. I also noted areas where the edited discussion can be improved and I will also attend to this. Thanks, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ------------------------------ [from Mark Wilson] For PC users, the trick is to use the correct settings in stuffit expander. From the options menu select 'cross platform'. 'Convert text files to windows format' should be set to 'when a file is known to contain text'. 'Save Macintosh files in MacBinary format' should be set to 'Never'. --------------------------- ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 02 Aug 1997 22:21:58 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Egyptian Pronunciation I have addes an essay on the pronunciation of the Egyptian verb to my Web site: http://home.prcn.org/~sfryer/egypt.html This explains some ideas on the subject that I developed. Questions, suggestions and comments would be very welcome. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ==============================================================================