Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 10:46:38 +0200 From: Elena Moltchanova Subject: AEL Newbies Ch.10 Exercises To: "AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk" Hello AEL:ers in general and newbies in particular, Our thread got rather quiet again, so I would be interested to know how is it going with others? I have managed chapters 6-9 without much difficulty, although the prepositions in chapter 8 are not easy to remember. During the weekend I have done the exercises for chapter 10 and I've got some questions, which I hope are not too silly Ex 10.13 nn sw m st.f It seems to me that this phrase can be translated in 2 ways: (a) It is not in its place (preposition "m" is translated as "in") or (b) This is not its place (preposition "m" has similar function to 10.11 (capacity?): jw jt(j).j m waw = "My father is/was a warrior") Ex 10.30 m.k wj m bAH.k Since there seem to be no tense indication in the adverbial sentences then can this one be translated equally as "Look, I was in your presence" "Look, I am in your presence" "Look, I will come in your presence" depending on the context? What about, for example, tw m bAH.j Are translations "You were/are/will be in my presence" and "Come into my presence" all equally valid? Ex 10.31 jr pA mw jw.f m 12 mH = "These waters are 12 cubits (deep)" How to find out here if it is 12 cubits _deep_ or _wide_? Is it understood from the context? Ex. 10.42 jw.f n nAy.j n Xrd = "It is for my children." I can't quite understand where does this translation come from. Is the direct translation something like "It is for those belonging to me, for the children"? Hope this didn't sound too mixed up 8o) Cheers, Elena ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 20:23:38 +0000 From: geoffponton To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Book-review? I felt that Dodson's book was a good introduction for the general reader to the historical background of hieroglyphs - their development and use in Ancient Egypt and the rediscovery of their meaning. It does not teach you the language (although it gives a few pointers). I found it particularly interesting in chapter 5 where he traces the development of hieroglyphic studies from Champollion to the present day. The photographs are excellent. Lau Sennels wrote: > I noticed that a new book "The Hieroglyphs of Ancient Egypt", by Aidan > Dodson, has recently been published. I don't know anything about mr. > Dodson, other than that he is a faculty member of U. of Bristol. > >From his personal web page it appears that he has published a lot > academic as well as popular literature on ancient egypt. > >From the limited info I have found about the contents of the book it > seems interesting, although the resume at Amazon sounds slightly > ominous: > > "This text reveals the truth behind the mystery of the > hieroglyphs of Ancient Egypt and the civilization that created them. > The author traces the origins and development of hieroglyphic writing > and explores the varied theories that scholars have expounded in their > attempts to explain the script." > > Has anyone read the book or a review of it? > > Can anyone suggest good references to, serious, literature on the > subject? > > Regards > -- > Lau Sennels | lau@sennels.dk | www.astronomibladet.dk ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2001 23:05:05 -0500 (EST) From: David Klotz To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Newbies Ch.10 Exercises > Ex 10.13 nn sw m st.f > It seems to me that this phrase can be translated in 2 ways: > (a) It is not in its place (preposition "m" is translated as "in") > or > (b) This is not its place (preposition "m" has similar function to 10.11 > (capacity?): > jw jt(j).j m waw = "My father is/was a warrior") Probably just the first one. 'nn' is used to negate adverbial sentences; nj...js is usually used for nominal sentences. Egyptian probably wouldn't use such a strange construction such as "This is not being (as) it's place" (using the m of predication) when a simple nominal sentence would be much clearer. > > Ex 10.30 m.k wj m bAH.k > Since there seem to be no tense indication in the adverbial sentences > then can this one be translated equally as > "Look, I was in your presence" > "Look, I am in your presence" > "Look, I will come in your presence" > depending on the context? > > What about, for example, > tw m bAH.j > > Are translations "You were/are/will be in my presence" and "Come into my > presence" all equally valid? The first three are all valid (although it would probably need a particle such as jw or m.k). The third would be better expressed with an imperative, or the hortative use of the stative. > Ex. 10.42 jw.f n nAy.j n Xrd = "It is for my children." > I can't quite understand where does this translation come from. Is the > direct translation something like "It is for those belonging to me, for > the children"? Not quite, that would be something like jw.f n njw.j Xrd or something, if you can use a plural nisbe in that sense. nAy.j n Xrd is the later Egyptian form discussed in Allen 5.10.5; n is usually used after the plural demonstrative pronouns (those beginning with n-) Hope this helps, David Klotz ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 22:40:46 -0500 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Kyle Barger Subject: AEL newbies: various questions lessons 3-5 I started Allen about a month ago on a trip then put it aside & picked it up again. I had a couple questions I never got a chance to ask, so here they are: Lesson 3 Exercise 19 -- the answer is given as aA .. why are the signs ordered as they are? Shouldn't the phonetic complement a be before the biliteral sign? Exercise 33 -- how do we know that there is only one n instead of two? There are two biliteral signs, V7 (Sn) and W24 (nw); the sign N35 (n) between them is obviously a phonetic complement, but it still seems like we should be left with two n's (Snnw) instead of one (Snw) because both biliterals contain an n. Lesson 4 2j -- I'm still a bit confused about the "false plural" and when, since the plural endings are not always written out in symbols, one can tell when the plural determinative is a "real" or "false" plural. Lesson 5 Regarding the suffix and dependent personal pronouns, in the case of 1PL, 2PL, and 3PL, the suffix and dependent pronouns are the same. How do you tell the difference? Does it matter? 1k -- What is the purpose of the A17 sign in this example? After looking it up in the dictionary contained in Allen, I can't see that any of the meanings for which this sign is used as a determinant are relevant. ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 22:11:56 -0500 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Kyle Barger Subject: AEL newbies: Flash Cards & fonts I would like to have some flash cards to drill the uniliteral and biliteral signs. I'm wondering if any exist. I was going to make some up using MS Word and a freely available hieroglyphic font. Before I do--has anybody else done it? (either as a "homegrown" or commercial effort)? Why reinvent the wheel? If the answer is no, is one of the free fonts more popular than the others? After I've done it, I'll put it up on my web page for anybody who is interested, and I might as well use whatever font is most popular. ============================================================================== From: "Renee Levant" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Essay 3-Kingship Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 17:40:14 -0500 Greetings, I was reading over Essay 3 in Allen's Middle egyptian. Here he suggests that the dual nature of the Egyptian King is reflected in the two words, nswt(nisut)=King and Hm (Hem) =Majesty or Incarnation. I am trying to understand the intention of each terms. As presented on Page 31 Hem is the one in whom the power of kingship is incarnated --- whereas Nisut is one whom represents Egypt before the Gods. I am curious then about the use of these terms...was it interchangeable. As presiding Priest would Nswt or H.m be equivalent in meaning..or would the use matter. Thank You Renee ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 05:35:15 -0600 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: paul@hieroglyphs.net Subject: AEL Hieroglyphs.net has Flash Cards >I would like to have some flash cards to drill the uniliteral and biliteral >signs. I'm wondering if any exist. I was going to make some up using MS >Word and a freely available hieroglyphic font. Before I do--has anybody >else done it? (either as a "homegrown" or commercial effort)? Why reinvent >the wheel? Kyle, In the past, we have sold them through the museum shop of the Minneapolis Art Institute and on the web. (They make great stocking stuffers.) Here's the descriptive info from http://hieroglyphs.net/store: ---------------------------------------------------- The set includes all of the most common phonetic characters used in Middle Egyptian, and many of the less common ones. In all, there are 126 characters in this set, plus 125 blank cards ideal for custom vocabulary drill. The cards are 1 1/2 x 3 1/2 inches, and are printed on acid-free card stock. On the front of each of the phonetic cards is a hieroglyph and on the back of the card is the transliteration. Each set includes a character list and our six step study recommendation. The flashcards come in a white paper box with a clear lid. ---------------------------------------------------- The price is $5.95 which includes shipping in the US. (Add $0.39 sales tax if you're in Minnesota.) If you're in the US, you can order with a creditcard on line at http://hieroglyphs.net/store or send a check (in US dollars) to Hieroglyphs.net 1502 E Second Street Duluth, MN 55812 USA And be sure to include the US address you'd like us to ship to. If you're= not in the US, lets us know where you are and we'll see what other= arrangements we can make. Best regards, Paul ============================================================================== From: "Staci Bloom" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL newbies: Flash Cards & fonts Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 10:14:49 -0700 Hello Sorry for barging in here. I am a fairly new member to the list and felt like this was a good topic to contribute to. I have tried to make the flash cards myself. I was able to find 2 free fonts that had the uniliteral symbols, but none that has the biliteral symbols. If you come across one would you please share the link with me? I would be most grateful. Staci ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 13:46:23 -0500 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Kyle Barger Subject: Re: AEL newbies: Flash Cards & fonts At 10:14 AM 11/14/2001 -0700, http://user.dtcc.edu/~berlin/font/hierogly.htm wrote: >I have tried to make the flash cards myself. I was able to find 2 free >fonts that had the uniliteral symbols, but none that has the biliteral >symbols. If you come across one would you please share the link with me? I >would be most grateful. Try here.. http://user.dtcc.edu/~berlin/font/hierogly.htm The "Gardiner" one and the "Glyph" one are the ones I've looked at. They both seem to have the mroe common signs, including biliterals. ============================================================================== From: "blochpri" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: RE: AEL newbies: Flash Cards & fonts Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 13:51:58 -0500 I made some flash cards for some of the words I have trouble remembering. Didn't think of it for the -literals,though - good idea! Anyhow, I used cardstock in playing-card size, and keep the current batch of ones I'm working on in a small tin, like the ones from the "Altoids" mints, so I can carry them in a pocket and not have them get totally trashed. I drew the signs in pencil first, lightly, then went over them in a fine point permanent black marker... essentially a "finished" drawing over the rough sketch. Then on the other side I have the meaning and pronunciation. Nothing fancy, just a simple sans-serif printing, by hand. It's kind of fun to do. Julie -----Original Message--- I would like to have some flash cards to drill the uniliteral and biliteral signs. I'm wondering if any exist. I was going to make some up using MS Word and a freely available hieroglyphic font. Before I do--has anybody else done it? (either as a "homegrown" or commercial effort)? Why reinvent the wheel? ============================================================================== From: "Michel Mudde" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL newbies: Flash Cards & fonts Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 21:23:41 +0100 Hi All, If there's such a great need for AEL flash cards I will make an electronic version (windows only). Michel ============================================================================== From: SAMUEL E KIMPTON To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Hieroglyphs.net has Flash Cards Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 14:38:08 -0800 I highly recomend making your own! I did this when I was learning and found that the experience in actually making the cards was very helpful in learning them. Sam Kimpton ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 12:49:32 -0600 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: "M. A. R. Barker" Subject: Re: AEL newbies: Flash Cards & fonts >Hello, I recommend the European hieroglyphic font programme "Macrscribe," produced by the CCER. I am sure someone has the current URL of this site. I used their font to produce a hieroglyphic flashcard programme for the Macintosh platform. It is based on the Middle Egyptian grammar of Prof. Hoch, but one can make new cards for any other book. It takes rather a large bit of memory. If someone wants to take a look at it, I can send off a copy. Prof. M. A. R. Barker (emeritus) ============================================================================== From: "John Armstrong" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL newbies: various questions lessons 3-5 Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 20:58:29 -0500 Hi Kyle, You ask a number of interesting questions about the Egyptian writing system. I'm just learning myself, so I can't really answer the questions, but I'm adding my $.02 worth to a couple of them. [SNIP] >Lesson 3 >Exercise 19 -- the answer is given as aA .. why are the signs ordered as >they are? Shouldn't the phonetic complement a be before the biliteral >sign? Gardiner and Allen both suggest that the normal placements of phonetic complements to bi- and triliteral signs are: first consonant -- before the sign second and (if there is one) third consonant -- after the sign. I like these rules because they make the writing system seem more coherent and also help in learning/remembering/guessing the values of the multiliteral signs, but I'm aware that they don't always hold. I believe the most common type of exception is that where two signs are reversed for aesthetic reasons. This might be the case with aA-a for *a-aA. To me at least it looks better to have the bent sign under than over the straight sign. But this is just a guess. >Exercise 33 -- how do we know that there is only one n instead of >two? There are two biliteral signs, V7 (Sn) and W24 (nw); the sign N35 (n) >between them is obviously a phonetic complement, but it still seems like we >should be left with two n's (Snnw) instead of one (Snw) because both >biliterals contain an n. This is very interesting example. My impression is that the modes of writing triliteral words that don't have an appropriate triliteral sign are, in descending order of preference: (1) 2-lit (+/- phonetic complements) for first and second consonants + 1-lit for third consonant (2) 1-lit for first consonant + 2-lit (+/- phonetic complements) for second and third consonants (3) 1-lit for first + 1-lit for second + 1 lit for third Your example may indicate a rare fourth possibility which is really a combination of the first two: (4) 2-lit (+- phon comps) for first and second consonants + 2-lit (+/- phon comps) for second and third consonants I have seen one or two examples of this last and have written them down somewhere. If I can find them I'll send them to you. It could be that something else is going on in them. I have a sense, for example, that the nw biliteral behaves a little strangely compared to most signs. [SNIP] -- John ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 21:01:46 -0500 From: Wayne Collins To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL newbies: Flash Cards & fonts I have a Postscript version of a set of flashcards which include all of the uniliteral glyphs and the common bi- and tri- literal ones. The cards were designed to print on pre-perforated Avery 05731 card stock in a laser printer using Serge Rosmorduc's beautiful HieroTex fonts. You end up after separating them with about 60 or so, little business card sized flashcards. Easy to conceal and easy to carry around with you. If any one wants the file, I'd be glad to contribute it. I tried earlier to post it with my response, but I'm told that's not allowed. If anyone wants a copy reply off list with your Email address and I'll send it to your Email. I did these up a while ago for my own use but I guess they are of wider interest than I thought.You can preview them with any Postscript viewer (even Windoze has one of these I think). I contribute these freely for private (non-commercial) use. Enjoy ... ============================================================================== From: "John Armstrong" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL newbies: Flash Cards & fonts Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 21:24:05 -0500 Like others I think flash cards are a great idea. I wonder if it is better to show the signs in isolation or better to show them in context in common or "prototypical" words. I personally find them easier to learn in context, but other people might prefer focusing on the signs by themselves. Just an idea, probably not worth discussing too much. -- John ============================================================================== From: Fabio.Vassallo@nokia.com To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Question about Allen's exercise 5 Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 11:04:19 +0200 Dear listmembers, As I've moved from Gardiner to Allen's book like many others [ I've started more or less the same time Elena Moltchanova started the same book, but I'm a little bit slower than her: I'm still at the end of chapter 6 :-( ], I've got a little question concerning exercise 5.3-f. Since the plural form is _nA n aA_, in my understanding the singular sentence should be _pA aA_ (A-series). Although it's a little colloquial form, less common and "beautiful" than _pn_, it seems to me that this singular is more "grammatically" corresponding than _aA pn_ (which is the exercise key given by the author). Am I wrong? Fabio. ============================================================================== From: "Thomas Sima" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL AE-words and modern words Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 16:00:49 -0500 >Chemistry and Alchemy are not from Egyptian. As pointed out, the root for these words cannot be traced to an independent Greek root. Moreover, the attribution of the name to Egyptian is well-documented, and if there is an error, it was made at a very early date and the Arabs and Greeks who used word in its earliest form were themselves mistaken. Look at the Oxford Greek Lexicon if you have any doubts. ============================================================================== From: "Nederhof M.J." To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Question about Allen's exercise 5 Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 10:46:00 +0100 > I've got a little question concerning exercise 5.3-f. > > Since the plural form is _nA n aA_, in my understanding the singular > sentence should be _pA aA_ (A-series). > Although it's a little colloquial form, less common and "beautiful" than > _pn_, it seems to me that this singular is more "grammatically" > corresponding than _aA pn_ (which is the exercise key given by the author). I think you're right, and it's a typo. (I'll add it to the list.) Mark-Jan ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2001 18:15:29 -0200 From: Antonio Costa Pereira To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL AE-words and modern words In Greek, one has the word CHYMOS, that means juice. There is CHYMA, CHYMATOS too. Finaly, one has the word CHYMIA (where the I is the transliteration of epsilon-iota), that is the art of preparing alloys. These words are from a root that means "to flow". The same root gives us the verb CHEO. For instance, "orange juice" is CHYMOS CHRYSOMELOU in Greek. If you read Zozimo's work (or what was left of it) that gave rise to the words CHYMIA and ALCHYMIA in Arab, you will notice that his use of CHYMIA is from CHYMA, CHYMATOS. No question about it. Now, Zozimo's work was translated to Syriac, where the word was spelled with the equivalent to eta, instead of ypsilon. Then it became CHEMIA. One would expect this kind of change, since in late Greek, as in modern Dhimotiki, eta and ypsilon have the same sound. Professor Jamin Salem Barbar, the person from whom I take advise on Arab, told me that the Arab word does come from Zozimo's work, probably from the Syriac translation, but possibly directly from Greek. To make a long story short, in Arab, the word comes from Greek. No! The Greeks did not have any question about the origin of the word, since its root is very common. I do not know much English, and I do not have an English dictionary to check it, but I believe that, if English dictionaries say that the word comes from KMT, they are wrong. In any case, dictionaries from other languages that I have, like Arab, Greek, Portuguese, French, Spanish, Italian, Hebrew, Latin and German, point to a Greek origin of the word. Eduardo Costa Thomas Sima wrote: > >Chemistry and Alchemy are not from Egyptian. > > As pointed out, the root for these words cannot be traced to an independent > Greek root. Moreover, the attribution of the name to Egyptian is > well-documented, and if there is an error, it was made at a very early date > and the Arabs and Greeks who used word in its earliest form were themselves > mistaken. Look at the Oxford Greek Lexicon if you have any doubts. ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 11:19:29 -0000 Subject: Re: AEL newbies: Flash Cards & fonts Hi, This Postscript file is now available via the AEL website. Point your browser at http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/fCards.ps and enjoy! Mark Wilson On 14 Nov 01, at 21:01, Wayne Collins wrote: > I have a Postscript version of a set of flashcards which include all > of the uniliteral glyphs and the common bi- and tri- literal ones. The > cards were designed to print on pre-perforated Avery 05731 card stock > in a laser printer using Serge Rosmorduc's beautiful HieroTex fonts. > > You end up after separating them with about 60 or so, little business > card sized flashcards. Easy to conceal and easy to carry around with > you. If any one wants the file, I'd be glad to contribute it. I tried > earlier to post it with my response, but I'm told that's not allowed. > If anyone wants a copy reply off list with your Email address and > I'll send it to your Email. > > I did these up a while ago for my own use but I guess they are of > wider interest than I thought.You can preview them with any Postscript > viewer (even Windoze has one of these I think). > > > I contribute these freely for private (non-commercial) use. Enjoy ... ============================================================================== From: Herbert J. Burgauer To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Beinlich List Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2001 19:17:06 -0500 To anybody who is interested: If you want the full Beinlich list in zip format (with German and English translations, some certainly not very good), let me know and I will send it to you. I loaded it into MS Publisher and it takes 321 pages. Now I am in the process to clean up the translations. That may take a few months. When I looked up "bread" it had 61 transcriptions. Does anybody know why? HJB ==============================================================================