From: "asli genc" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL OBELISK OF TUTMOSIS III Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 17:17:29 +0300 hi, is there anybody who can tell me where i can find the translation of the obelisk of tutmosis III (the obelisk in istanbul/turkey) ? thanks asli ============================================================================== From: "M S" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Re: Derivation of Osiris Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 20:22:31 -0500 The question of Greek renderings of Egyptian names is often puzzling. (Example: How did "Anpu/Inpu" get to be "Anubis"? And where did they get "Cheops" from "Khufu"?!?) While I haven't a definitive answer on the derivation of Osiris' name, I find it interesting that the god's name is rendered either "asir" or "wsir" in the Egyptian (that is, rendering it by the methods I was taught!). Now, to the English tongue at least, the phonetic sounds "w" and "o" (especially a throaty o) do not sound radically different. As the Egyptians didn't distinguish between some consonants, like "f" and "v", or "r" and "l", it is possible that the same principle applied here. And obviously, the ending of words with "-us" and "-is" is quite common in ancient Greek. And that is all that I have to knowledgeably say on the subject. :) mrytnfrt ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2001 08:48:03 +0100 Subject: AEL Hieratic signs From: "andre.malahov-dombasle@nomade.fr" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Dear all ! Could someone specify me if 2 hieratic signs ("Htp" (R3) and Y1)are really written in the same way ? For example, I cannot get the difference in the Shipwrecked Sailor (page 1 - Y1 is in column 1 in the adjective "iqr" and "Htp" (R3)is in column 11 "m Htp"). Is the only opportunity to separate the one from the other to look to the context ? L.W.S. Thanks in advance, Andre Malahov-Dombasle ------------------- L'e-mail gratuit pas comme les autres. Pour cr=E9er votre adresse : http://www.nomade.fr/courrier/ouvrir.asp NOMADE.FR, pourquoi chercher ailleurs ? ============================================================================== From: "msv" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL align peasant Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2001 21:26:24 +0100 version = B1 <119> iw in rf sxty pn r spr n =f sp 2 Dd =f imy-r pr-wr nb =i wr n wrw ; <119> Now, this peasant returned in order to petition to him a second time. He said, O, High Steward, my lord, greatest of the great ones <120> xwd n xwdw nty wn wr n wrw =f xwd n ; <120> richest of the rich ones. Who exists greatest of his great ones, richest of # I am having difficulty in the 2nd part of this sentence. Can someone explain the grammer to me. <121> xwdw =f Hmw n pt ; <121> his rich ones. The steering oar of Heaven. <122> sAw n tA xAy fAi wdnw Hmw m sbn ; <122> beam of the earth, plumb - line that supports the weight. Steering oar, do not steer off course <123> sAw m gsA xAy m ir-nwdw nb wr ; <123> beam, do not tilt, plumb - line, do not sing awry. A great lord <124> Hr iTt m ntt nb =s Hr HaDA Hr waw Xrt =k m pr =k ; <124> who is seizing what is without its owner, is robbing someone while your possessions are in your home <125> Hnkt hnw Hna t 3 ptr pnqt =k m ssAt twAw =k ; <125> A jar of beer and three loaves of bread, what do you expend on your inferiors provisions mark vygus ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 16:27:11 +0200 (METDST) From: "Nederhof M.J." To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL align peasant Let me try to revive our discussion of the Eloquent Peasant, starting from http://www.dfki.uni-sb.de/~nederhof/AEL/peasant/guest18.html. Jerome Colburn wrote: > iy Hr <99> xrw dd rA=i > ; > come on account of <99> the voice that my mouth gives! If I hadn't peeked at published translations, I would have agreed with this. But there is one, I admit not entirely compelling, reason to favour an alternative reading: the previous phrases are `laudatory' titles: "Great one...", "One who destroys the lie", etc. So one could expect something similar here, viz.: <98> ..... jj Hr <99> xrw DD-rA ; <98> ..... One who comes on account of <99> the voice of the visitor. Note that Faulkner has dd-r, 'caller', and Hannig has DD-rA, 'Besucher' (= visitor). I opt for the latter. Some more alternatives for the following text: <100> ...... dr sAr<101>=j ; <100> ...... drive off <101> my need ...... jp <102> wj mk wj m nhw ; ...... investigate <102> me, I am at a loss. Note that "at a loss" is translated literally but perhaps then takes on a meaning in English different from what was originally meant; but it makes sense here anyway. At: > mk <108> sw iw r spr n=i Hr=s > ; > Behold, <108> he has come to plead to me about it." let me remark that "iw.(w)" is the stative form from a subject-stative construction (Allen, p. 204). > m mrr=k mA=i snb.kwi > ; > "In your desiring that I see, I am well. Better seems: <109> ....... m mrr=k mA=j snb.kwj ; <109> ....... As you desire to see me well, mA is the infinitive and =j is its object. Note that the infinitive form of this verb is often mA rather than mAA before a suffix. Regards, Mark-Jan ============================================================================== From: Ashroud@aol.com Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:11:06 EDT Subject: AEL Greatly confused over 13th dynasty king-list To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk I have been accessing various 13th dynasty king lists online and have, as a result, become very confused. None of them seem to agree with one another. Can anyone help provide what now stands for a more or less canonical list? I am most interested in the pharoahs from Sekhemrekhutawy (Amenemhat VI? Amenemhat VII?) through Khendjar (Userkare?) and Imira (Im.y-r, "Overseer"?) - Mesha (Semenekhkare?), but would also like a firmer fix for Dedumose I and II. Thank you for your help. Daniel Harnan ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 07:45:38 -0500 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Katherine Griffis Subject: Re: AEL Horapollo's Hieroglyphica and Allen's "Middle Egyptian" Cc: bessel@europa.com At 05:05 PM 4/11/01 -0700, Sam Kimpton wrote: >Does anyone know of a recent publication of Horapollo's Hieroglyphica >which was written in the IVth century AD? Boas, G. (transl). _The Hieroglyphica of Horapollo_. 1978 (rept 1993). Bollingen Series XXIII. (Princeton: Princeton Univ. Press) It's an interesting work: it shows how occult symbolism became attached to hieroglyphics when the knowledge of their meaning had been lost. There is the ability to get both used and new copies of the work at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, etc. Regards -- Katherine Griffis-Greenberg University of Alabama at Birmingham UAB Options/Special Studies http://www.griffis-consulting.com ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:37:25 -0400 From: Brian Subject: Re: AEL Greatly confused over 13th dynas To: Ancient Egyptian Language List << I have been accessing various 13th dynasty king lists online and have, as a result, become very confused. None of them seem to agree with one another. Can anyone help provide what now stands for a more or less canonical list? I am most interested in the pharoahs from Sekhemrekhutawy (Amenemhat VI? Amenemhat VII?) through Khendjar (Userkare?) and Imira (Im.y-r, "Overseer"?) - Mesha (Semenekhkare?), but would also like a firmer fix for Dedumose I and II. >> See my other reply regarding Tutimaios. I may be able to extract Ryholt's chronology of these periods over the weekend. Brian Yare ============================================================================== From: "A.K. Eyma" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Horapollo's Hieroglyphica and Allen's "Middle Egyptian" Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 15:08:12 +0200 >Does anyone know of a recent publication of Horapollo's Hieroglyphica which was written in the IVth century AD? **I presume that G. Boas (translator) - The Hieroglyphs of Horapollo, 1993 will fit your needs. kind regards, Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 09:37:23 -0400 From: Brian Subject: Re: AEL Dedumose = Thutmose? To: Ancient Egyptian Language List << There is a 13th dynasty pharaoh rendered Dedumose (and variants). In Greek, this is Tutimaios. Am I correct in assuming that this is the same as the later Thutmose, i.e. "Thoth/Djehuty is born"? >> K.S.B. Ryholt, in "The Political Situation in Egypt during the Second Intermediate Period", 1997, has two Dedumoses in the 16th Dynasty. He refutes the existence of a pharaoh called Tutimaios in =A74.2.1.1 and =A75.4. I've uploaded a .gif of =A75.4 to my website - it contains quite a lot of accented Greek, which wouldn't look right in html. Go to www.yare.org and sign in if it is your first visit. Then navigate via Ancient History | Books | My Library to Ryholt. Click on the blue spot to get to the .gif, which is 76kb. There is some doubt about the identity of the Timaios (or Tutimaios) mentioned by Manetho - this is currently being discussed on the New Chronology list. Brian Yare ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:33:47 -0400 (EDT) To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Ogden Goelet Subject: AEL Location of Khenti-hen-nefer? There was also an article by Goedicke on the subject: Goedicke, H.G., "The Location of xnt-Hn-nfr," _Kush_ 13 (1965) 102-111. Ogden Goelet ============================================================================== From: UrHekau@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:18:49 EDT Subject: Re: AEL Horapollo's Hieroglyphica and Allen's "Middle Egyptian" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk In a message dated 4/20/01 6:57:11 AM Central Daylight Time, bessel@europa.com writes: > Does anyone know of a recent publication of Horapollo's Hieroglyphica > which was written in the IVth century AD? Yes. "The Hieroglyphics of Horapollo", translated and introduced by George Boas, Princeton University Press, ISBN 0-691-00092-1 I got mine from Amazon.com, I think. Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 07:48:32 -0700 From: sfryer@prcn.org (Stephen Fryer) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Hieratic signs Andre Malahov-Dombasle wrote: > Could someone specify me if 2 hieratic signs ("Htp" > (R3) and Y1)are really written in the same way ? For > example, I cannot get the difference in the Shipwrecked > Sailor (page 1 - Y1 is in column 1 in the adjective "iqr" > and "Htp" (R3)is in column 11 "m Htp"). Is the only > opportunity to separate the one from the other to look to > the context ? The two signs are VERY similar but there is a slight difference, which is sometimes not easy to see with other characters "invading" the signs space. In the case of the Y1 there is a simple little "tick mark" above the main body of the sign. With the "Htp" themark is more like a "v." Of course the distinction can also be blurred by careless writing by the scribe. So examine the signs carefully and yes, do watch which makes sense in the context. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:32:19 -0400 (EDT) To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Ogden Goelet Subject: AEL Learning hieratic Dear Listers, Ironically, the ancient Egyptians learned to write in quite the opposite manner that we do today. Ancient (Classical) sources as well as evidence from ostraca and writing boards show us that the student scribes learned to write hieratic first, then hieroglyphs only if one had a special need for doing so. As one who has taught Egyptian for years now, I would strongly encourage you to leave hieratic to a later stage of your learning. It is best tackled when only one has a solid command of vocabulary. I would write more on this subject, but I am in the leading edge of the end-of-the-term tidal wave at the moment. Ogden Goelet ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 10:30:53 -0400 (EDT) To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Ogden Goelet Subject: AEL Re: Hm Dear Listers, I have been rightfully corrected on Allen's preference for "his Incarnation" as a translation for Hm.f, but I would note that in general in recent works it is often translated as "his Person" as well. Ogden Goelet ============================================================================== From: "Ulla Poulsen" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL hieroglyphs vs. hieratic writing Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 14:33:36 +0200 If you can lay hands on it I recommend Ancient Egyptian Calligraphy A beginners guide to writing hieroglyphs by Henry George Fischer Metropolitan Museum of Art ISBN 0-87099-337-2 It shows in details how to write the hieroglyphs Ulla Poulsen dragonlady@email.dk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dieko van Schagen" > > > However drawing hieroglyphs is still difficult -- I'm afraid I wasn't born to draw. ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 15:26:33 EDT From: Teresh000@aol.com Subject: Re: AEL hieroglyphs vs. hieratic writing To: I've seen this book, and it really just perpetuates the same problem the original poster has mentioned: non- artists trying to reproduce the highly pictorial forms of hieroglyphs. Fischer's book does show some stroke order, but for me was as useless as those "How to Draw..." books that jump from a few circles to a fully- rendered image of a horse in far too few steps for me to follow! If you are not intensely interested in hieratic for its own sake and just want to write texts that don't look quite so crude, I suggest taking a look at "cursive hieroglyphs". This is a reduced form of hieroglyph most common in religious texts like the Book of the Dead. The glyphs are not so difficult to draw as full pictures are, but the results are more recognizable than hieratic often is. I have a discussion of cursive hieroglyphs on my web site at http://www.geocities.com/weser_2000/ecursive.html. -- Terry Donnelly In a message dated Sat, 21 Apr 2001 6:42:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "Ulla Poulsen" writes: << If you can lay hands on it I recommend Ancient Egyptian Calligraphy A beginners guide to writing hieroglyphs by Henry George Fischer Metropolitan Museum of Art ISBN 0-87099-337-2 It shows in details how to write the hieroglyphs Ulla Poulsen dragonlady@email.dk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dieko van Schagen" > > > However drawing hieroglyphs is still difficult -- I'm afraid I wasn't born to draw. >> ============================================================================== From: ReKhepera@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 12:24:20 EDT Subject: AEL Transliteration of passage from Thutmose III stela? To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Can a list subscriber please supply me with the transliteration (minus number coding or fonts I lack) for the following passage, found on the Gebel Barkal stela of Thutmose III? Thank you. Daniel Harnan Then my majesty established my stela upon that mountain of Naharin by carvin out in mountain stone on the western side of the Euphrates: My opponents do not exist in the southern lands, the northerners come bowing to my might. It is Ra who commanded it for me. As I enclosed that which his eye has encircled, so he has given me the land in its length and width since I bound together nine bows the islands in the middle of the sea, the Aegean islands and the rebellious lands ============================================================================== From: ReKhepera@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 11:34:54 EDT Subject: AEL Proper transliterated form of Yabet? To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk I am looking for the proper transliterated form of the name Yabet, apparently a lesser wife of Thutmose III. I would also appreciate any information list subscribers may have on this personage. Thank you. Daniel Harnan ============================================================================== From: ReKhepera@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 14:02:52 EDT Subject: AEL Translation of Stela of Thutmose I? To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Is there a translation of the stela of Thutmose I availalbe online? And, if not, can someone who has ready access to this text please contact me on or off-list? Thank you. Daniel Harnan ============================================================================== From: ReKhepera@aol.com Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 23:10:12 EDT Subject: AEL Stelas as trees? To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk I have found some instance of stelas apparently being referred to as trees. In one case (the of the Hatshepsut obelisk), the term "ashet-tree" is used. Alas, I have not be able to discern the meaning of ashet. Is there indeed evidence for the stela being a symbolic representation of a tree? Thank you. Daniel Harnan ==============================================================================