Date: Thu, 3 Jul 97 12:26:43 UT From: "jacob rabinowitz" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Amarna Suffix I am puzzled by a recurrent suffix in the famous "Hymn to the Aten"; a "tch" appears in apposition to the ordinary "k" of the second person singular, e.g., iw.k wbn.ti m ahet iabt, mh.n.k ta m nfrw.k / iw 'n-ti wr.ti thn.tch, ka.ti hr tp ta nb &c "You are risen on the eastern horizon, since you have filled the earth with your beauty / you are become bright, you are become great, you(?) gleam, you are high above every land &c. The statives are "tu" for either sex in the 2nd person, but the "k"s on the iw and the the nfrw suggest a masculine 2nd person sing. ending is wanted where the "tch" appears. The question: is this a grammatical form I don't know -- some spoken idiom out of the New Kingdom, or is Akhenaten varying the sex of a standard verbal ending to indicate the androgeny of the Aten? Jacob Rabinowitz ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:37:57 +0000 Subject: AEL Hap(y) question One of our list members, Didier Dubois, mentioned the following question to me. If anyone on the list can help out here, please do! ddubois@MPRO01.oda.fr (Didier Dubois) wrote: > by the way, if you have some informations about the god hapy > the nile god > because since long time ago i work on it > especially if you have infos about the genesis/birth of the noun > hapy which was originally not hapy but hap (no dual form ) in > Pyramids and Coffin texts. for instance, the first mention in eg. > texts of dual form hap(y) > > I would not be boring talking about my beloved god but again if have > or if you can get from the the list some infos i will bbe delighted. -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:47:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Hap(y) question Hi, Didier, > ddubois@MPRO01.oda.fr (Didier Dubois) wrote: > > > by the way, if you have some informations about the god hapy > > the nile god > > because since long time ago i work on it > > especially if you have infos about the genesis/birth of the noun > > hapy which was originally not hapy but hap (no dual form ) in > > Pyramids and Coffin texts. for instance, the first mention in eg. > > texts of dual form hap(y) First off, there is a dissertation published as a book by John Baines on this subject. It is _Fecundity Figures_. Have you already read this? Secondly, I believe there is some debate as to whether there actually is a deity with a real cult bearing the name "Hapy". Temples are often surrounded by genii of various fields and canals who have the outward trappings of a "Nile-god", fatty paunch, hanging pectorals, divine beard, fisherman's belt, and Nilotic plants on the head, but there is no known cult site for "Hapy". Rather, each of these Nile figures seems to be a local nature spirit. They form processions around chapels of the deceased representing his mortuary estates, or on the dados of temples to other deities where they represent the nomes and produce of all of Egypt being brought to the god of the temple, or they unite the plants of Upper and Lower Egypt on the bases of royal thrones, but they do not seem to have cultic images, cultic spaces, or even distinct names other than those of the geographic regions they are supposed to represent. Calling them "Hapy" is simply calling them "inundation" in the Egyptian language. I am not sure whether there are actual images labeled as "Hapy" or whether this has just been inferred by Egyptologists. Clearly I ought to read Baines's book myself ;-) However, it is very long, and dissertational, (being a dissertation) which makes it hard to do much more than browse and pick out the parts which interest one. ;-) Furthermore, as shocking as it must seem, given that Egypt depended so much on the Nile for all its life, in Egyptian cosmology and myth, apparently the innundation could be personified by any number of deities such as Ptah, Osiris, Sobek, Khnum, Hathor, Sekhmet, etc. depending on the circumstances. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 05:52:48 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Amarna Suffix To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>AEL Amarna Suffix Just a few thoughts on this beautiful hymn: (1) Not having a copy of this particular text, perhaps someone could provide a GIF, Glyph or macScribe version of this short section. So I am going purely on the transliteration given. >the statives are "tu" (2) I would say the stative ending would best be described as 'ti' [ie. U33, but can be indicated as merely an X1], as indicated in your transliteration. (3) the problem you point out is a _T_ (?=tch) appended to the verb _THn_ (gleam). It sticks out from the other verb forms which are clearly stative. What are the possibilities? If the verb meaning is correct, 'to gleam', it is not transitive. An infinitive doesn't look likely as it would take a suffix pronoun (=k). It could be an imperative, followed by the dependent pronoun (contracted to just _T_): "Gleam you !" Any other suggestions?? Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au -------------------------------------- ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 15:26:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Amarna Suffix Hi, Jacob, Amarna texts exhibit some writing anomalies, and maybe this is the source of the confusion. > iw.k wbn.ti m ahet iabt, mh.n.k ta m nfrw.k / iw 'n-ti wr.ti thn.tch, ka.ti > hr tp ta nb &c I have not seen this inscription, but from your transliteration and translation, I am gathering that it might be something like the following: jw=k wbn.tj m 3x.t j3b.t(.y.t) You have arisen in the eastern horizon, mH.n=k t3 m nfr.w=k having filled the land with your beauty. jw(=k) To: Aegyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL improved transcription Dear Messrs. Graham, Dyall-Smith, et al., My apologies for a clumsy transliteration. I have consulted the Manuel de Codage, and can affirm that the correct transcription is jw=k wbn.tj m 3x.t j3b.t(.y.t) You have arisen in the eastern horizon, mH.n=k t3 m nfr.w=k having filled the land with your beauty. jw(=k) Subject: Re: AEL Amarna Suffix To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>>AEL Amarna Suffix Following up on Geoff's comment: I'm wondering whether the change from .tj to .T may be due to: a) writing constraints: the T (a horizontal shape) being easier to fit in with the other signs. b) a more subtle phonetic difference between t and T that has been brought out by the preceding word. Could the final n of THn influence the next consonant? As Geoff suggests, it could simply be a scribal variant but why this particular verb....?? -------------------------------------------- jw(=k) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Hap(y) question Something that may be of interest in regard to this topic. I just saw in Jaromir Malek's _In the Shadow of the Pyramids_ (p.71) a couple of photographs showing parts of a relief in Sahure's temple (early 5th dynasty). The relief shows a procession of demigods associated with fertility. At the head (?) of the procession is Hapy, identified with a clump of papyrus (M-15) on his head, and the photograph caption refers to him being "Lower Egyptian." What paint remains on the relief shows him with normal skin colour for men, not the green we sometimes associate with him. The caption for him in the relief is di=f anx Dd.t nb (mHw?). He is followed by a (pregnant?) woman in a white sheath dress identified as nxbt ("Budding"). Her caption is di=s anx wAs. I think this is the only picture I have seen that showed a belly-button (or maybe I'm just not observant enough). Behind her comes wAD-wr ("Great Green") He is represented with a similar figure to Hapy, but is painted uniformly with a dark/light wave pattern (except for his face which is plain dark). His caption is di=f anx. In the context of this relief it seems unlikely that they he represents the sea; possibly the wide-spereading flood water? There is at least on male missing between the photographs. The end of the procession is a lady in a green sheath dress named Awt-ib ("Joy"). Her caption is simply di=s anx. I'm not sure what significance there is in the order of the procession, though joy would certainly follow from fertility of the fields. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 08:34:13 -0500 From: Saida To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL improved transcription Jacob Rabinowitz wrote: > here again, after psD, we find the T (tethering rope) one would expect for a > second person singular feminine verb-ending -- but that won't fit.Nor does an > imperative seem likely -- since the Aten is the one being addressed. I'd be > happiest if it turned out that this was a N.K. equivalent for tj, one that was > better suited to being written horizontally, but that I fear is wishful > thinking. My question is--if the "tethering rope" or /T/ was supposed to be pronounced "tch", why would it so often alternate with /t/? In this case, is it possible that the /T/ could just be a complement of /D/ being they were pronounced so much alike, just as the glyph "mr" is often followed by an extra /r/? As for "iw" (you) without the /k/--haven't I seen "I" (pronoun) written just "i"--or was that my imagination? Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 07:43:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL improved transcription Hi, Jacob, > My apologies for a clumsy transliteration. I have consulted the Manuel de > Codage, and can affirm that the correct transcription is We all have trouble with tranliteration until we get used to it in ascii. The system I have used here is technically _not_ standard Manuel de Codage, but rather a modification thereof with which I feel most comfortable. The Manuel de Codage system would employ a, A, and i, where I am using 3, <, and j, but because my choice of symbols at least _looks_ like what most Egyptologists actually use, most people are not too uncomfortable with my non-standard usages. The main point I would suggest to you for your own transliteration is that you are more careful in keeping your haches distinct: h, H, x, and X all have separate values. However, overall, you have done very well considering. HD t3 wbn.tj m 3x.t The land brightens when you have risen in the horizon psD=T m jtn m hrw (.tj?) illumined as a disk in daylight. It either has to be a variant writing for .tj or an abbreviation for Tw. If it is the latter it can only work where it follows an adjective verb rather than some other kind of verb. Yours, Geoff sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 02:18:16 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL improved transcripti To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>AEL improved transcription Thanks for the improved version of the text. I agree, imperatives are probably not likely given that the Aten is being praised. Geoff is right in saying the t and T were interchanging but I am still curious about the forces dictating the use of one sign or the other. If you don't think graphemic/calligraphic pressures were responsible in the inscription, then perhaps there is an explanation one step before the inscription was put on the wall. Usually the scribe who put up the hieroglyphic text on the wall, based the hieroglyphic text on a hieratic version. Perhaps in the hieratic version there was some calligraphic reason to use T in certain places. Geoff (or anyone else who has studied hieratic) might like to comment on this. regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 12:28:35 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL improved transcription Saida wrote: > My question is--if the "tethering rope" or /T/ was supposed to be > pronounced "tch", why would it so often alternate with /t/? In this > case, is it possible that the /T/ could just be a complement of /D/ > being they were pronounced so much alike, just as the glyph "mr" is > often followed by an extra /r/? As for "iw" (you) without the > /k/--haven't I seen "I" (pronoun) written just "i"--or was that my > imagination? By the New Kingdom, in MOST cases t and T were pronounced alike, ase were d and D. This was in the process of happening in the Middle Kingdom. Later it got to the point where t and d were interchangeable, this was the case with names on the Rosetta Stone, etc., which caused considerable confusion with the original decipherers. As for T alternating with ti, I can imagine settings in a word (involving the vowels of which we have little knowledge) where ti migh actually be pronounced as T. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 14:56:57 +0000 From: "Patrick C. Ryan" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL improved transcription Dear Geoff: I like your system of notation very much because it brings out the consonantal quality of the vulture (3) and the arm (<) and the reedleaf (j) but, a word of caution. If you use < is an .html document, it will really mess things up. Reluctantly, I have gone back to using (') for the arm. Pat Graham wrote: > Hi, Jacob, > > > My apologies for a clumsy transliteration. I have consulted > the Manuel de > > Codage, and can affirm that the correct transcription is > > We all have trouble with tranliteration until we get used to it in > ascii. > The system I have used here is technically _not_ standard Manuel de > Codage, but rather a modification thereof with which I feel most > comfortable. The Manuel de Codage system would employ a, A, and i, > where > I am using 3, <, and j, but because my choice of symbols at least > _looks_ > like what most Egyptologists actually use, most people are not too > uncomfortable with my non-standard usages. The main point I would > suggest > to you for your own transliteration is that you are more careful in > keeping your haches distinct: h, H, x, and X all have separate values. > > However, overall, you have done very well considering. > > HD t3 wbn.tj m 3x.t > The land brightens when you have risen in the horizon > > psD=T m jtn m hrw > (.tj?) > illumined as a disk in daylight. > > It either has to be a variant writing for .tj or an abbreviation for > Tw. > If it is the latter it can only work where it follows an adjective > verb > rather than some other kind of verb. > > Yours, Geoff > sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu -- PATRICK C. RYAN (501) 227-9947; FAX/DATA (501)312-9947 9115 W. 34th St. * Little Rock, AR 72204-4441 * USA WEBPAGE: ************************************** 'Veit ek, at ek hekk, vindga meidhi, naetr allar niu, geiri undadhr... a theim meidhi er mangi veit hvers hann af rotum renn.' * (Havamal 138) ************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 05 Jul 1997 13:18:00 +1100 From: Michael Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL improved transcript To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Reply to: RE>>AEL improved transcription Geoff said: >psD=T m jtn m hrw > (.tj?) illumined as a disk in daylight. > It either has to be a variant writing for .tj or an abbreviation for Tw. >If it is the latter it can only work where it follows an adjective verb > rather than some other kind of verb. Didn't think of adjective-verbs! Good one Geoff. So in the two cases mentioned, THn (gleam) and psD (illuminate), the first is surely an adjective-verb, the second (shine/illuminate) would also fit (?). If used as an adjectival predicate (eg. nfr sw, "he is good") it would change the way one views the surrounding phrases. In the above example it would probably form a new sentence (since you are introducing the subject again), ie. "You shine like.... ", rather than following on from a previous subject (as all the statives do). Mike Dyall-Smith mikeds@ariel.ucs.unimelb.edu.au [PS: please excuse my apparently random posts; they are being delayed by a variable number of hours. My previous post on a possible connection to hieratic has not appeared yet.] ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 5 Jul 97 13:32:28 UT From: "jacob rabinowitz" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Hymn to the Aten I was very impressed by the collected discussion notes for the Westcar, and would like to try something similar with the Hymn to the Aten (the version from the Tomb of Ay) . I'm wondering how much interest there is among list members in such an undertaking, and how best to make the material available. I would be very happy to scan it in from Davies Amarna VI pl 27, and type in the most up to date translation (Murname) and HTML it on a separate page: what I'd ideally like to do is come up with a commentary on the philological and (to some extent) the philosophical content. I would volunteer to act as "editor" -- synthesising and summarising the results of the discussion. The great value of having commented editions of texts on line is beyond dispute, and the fascination of this particular document probably deserves to be called exceptional. I hope then the project may find favor with the list. Jacob Rabinowitz fas22@msn.com ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 17:26:24 -0500 From: Saida To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL T and t Stephen Fryer wrote: > > Saida wrote: > > > My question is--if the "tethering rope" or /T/ was supposed to be > > pronounced "tch", why would it so often alternate with /t/? In this > > case, is it possible that the /T/ could just be a complement of /D/ > > being they were pronounced so much alike, just as the glyph "mr" is > > often followed by an extra /r/? As for "iw" (you) without the > > /k/--haven't I seen "I" (pronoun) written just "i"--or was that my > > imagination? Stephen: > By the New Kingdom, in MOST cases t and T were pronounced alike, ase > were d and D. This was in the process of happening in the Middle > Kingdom. Later it got to the point where t and d were interchangeable, > this was the case with names on the Rosetta Stone, etc., which caused > considerable confusion with the original decipherers. > > As for T alternating with ti, I can imagine settings in a word > (involving the vowels of which we have little knowledge) where ti migh > actually be pronounced as T. I find it interesting, though, that in Coptic, words that formerly began with t stayed t while those beginning with T mostly wound up "dj". That is why I made the above suggestion, although I am probably wrong. Yes, there are some accents where there is scarcely any difference between t and d--and the Coptic certainly seems to reflect that happening in Egyptian. Ti seems to be part of this picture. However D survives into Coptic mainly as "dj". Can anybody think of any words in which d and D alternated in spellings during the same period? Since there are many words where d follows right after D, I wonder if they could have been pronounced alike. P.S--it wasn't my imagination. At some point the *reed-stalk* was the pronoun "I". That's why "iw", without a /k/ being "you" in this case doesn't surprise me too much. Very curious. Marianne Luban ==============================================================================