Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 18:27:33 +0200 From: Richard Watson Subject: AEL Word order... To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Hi there! Thanks to everyone who helped me with transliterating (especially to Eduardo Costa for making it so much more clearer :-) Now, I'd like to know about the word ordering, i.e where the verb comes first etc. I learnt it off by heart once, but unfortunately, the website where I learnt it from, has deleted the pages where it tells you the word ordering. I made a whole bunch of sentences in hieroglyphs, but I was backing up my files, and deleted the sentences by mistake :-D Silly me... LOL. In any case, could someone help me out again by tell me the word order in which hieroglyphs are written? Thanks in advance ;-) Richard "DuckMan" Watson Chat to me via ICQ: 61022641 ============================================================================== From: "Lucas Venter" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Transliterations Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 18:44:23 +0200 Hi all Kantor's system seems similar to the one that seems to be in fashion in Russia at present. I am presently reading a new book by the late Soviet Egyptologist Yuri Perepelkin calles "Istorija drevnego Egipta" (incidentally very good - Perepelkin is much underrated in the West, presumably due to the ideological conditions under which he was forced to work, similar to Knorosov among Maya scholars). Perepelkin had his own system of transliteration, but the contemporary editor has replaced it with what I presume to be the current academic standard in the Former Soviet Union. Some readings are clearly based on cuneiform readings, but others are a puzzlement, and presumably extrapolated from Coptic (which I do not know): Thutmoses: Dkhut-masi Kadesh: Kidshi Amenhotep: Aman-khatpi Akhetaten: Akh-yati (feminine final -t's are ommitted everywhere) Akhenaten: Akhnayati Atum: Atama Osiris: Usiri Anubis: Anapa Seti: Sutaya etc... Are there any Russian members of the AEL who could provide a good summary of the system? (If it seems daunting in English, e-mail the Russian answer to me and I will translate it for the group. m Htp Lucas Venter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Antonio Eduardo Costa Pereira" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2001 9:19 PM Subject: Re: AEL Transliterations > --- See http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ for AEL resources. > --- Copyright in the following belongs to the undersigned. > --- To reply privately, send to costa@ufu.br > > Hi, Richard. > Transliteration helps memorizing the hieroglyphs. To make a long story short, if you > make the words pronounceable, it is easier to learn them by heart. I found out > that there are many schemes of transliteration. They can be put in two categories: > Those that try to approach ancient pronunciation from clues and those that > use a reasonable arbitrary system. > > A couple of years ago, my son had a teacher who used a clue based system > invented (or discovered? ) by a Czech linguist whose name is Kantor. > To give you an idea of how complex this system is, I will talk a little about it. > Many vowels were taken from the remaining of a book written by an Egyptian > priest whose name was Manetho, and who wrote in Greek. Kantor supposes > that this Manetho knew Egyptian, and would render the vowels of his tongue through > the Greek alphabet. The problem is that the book of this Manetho disappeared. > Then comes a second hypothesis: People who cites Manetho are accurate enough to be trusted. > Well, Harmais is the name that Manetho gives to Horemheb. Then, > Kantor says that the vowels are right, and transliterate HarmaHib. > When he cannot go to Manetho, my son's teacher used the Saaidic dialect of Copt. > In this dialect, "to hear" is sootem, where the "e" is very short. The reason > is that this dialect has pronuntiation rules that forbid clusters of consonants. > Then, a short "e" is inserted between consonants, preventing clusters. > The vowels are classified in long and short. If a vowel is sandwiched > between consonants, it is short. Otherwise, it is long. Therefore, sootem has > a long "oo" and an short "e". Now, let's go to sotmef, that means "he hears". > The addition of a suffix pronoun changes the vocalization. These clues > makes Kantor believe that the verb sDm, was pronounced sooDem. > By the same token, sDm.f is pronounced sooDmef. > Languages like Copt and Hebrew have a construct case, where a name > changes its internal vowels to show possession. Kantor believes (or believed, > I don't know whether he is alive) that Ancient Egyptian had this construct case too. > Therefore, he changes the vowels of names to create a construct case. > > I strongly recomend you against trying to learn reconstructed pronuntiations, > like the one proposed by Kantor. By the way, I got another teacher to my son, > who uses the following arbitrary scheme: She uses the vowels (A, I, U, and short E, > like in classical Arab). You can choose which vowel you will insert. > Choose the one that makes the word sound better, > and help your memory. The rules are: > > 1- If the word has one consonant, put the vowel before it. For instance, you can > pronounce the word M like this: IM. > 2- If the word has two consonants, put the vowel between them: nt becomes net. > 3- Finally, if the word has three consonants, it receives a vowel between the > first and the second, and between the second and the third: xft becomes xifet. > 4- If the syllable has a vowel sandwiched between two consonants, that > vowel is a short "e". > 5- If the syllable ends in vowel, that vowel is long, and can be A, I ou U. > > With these rules, sDm becomes saaDem, and sDm.f becomes seDmef. > Much easier, isn't it? > > Eduardo Costa ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 17:13:52 -0600 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Paul Sciortino Subject: Re: AEL Word order... Richard, There's an excellent presentation of grammar, especially useful to those who wish to _write_ hieroglyphic sentences, on http://hieroglyphs.net. Look for the Compose tool. Cheers, Paul Sciortino ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:55:11 -0500 From: Brian Yare Subject: Re: AEL Word order... To: Ancient Egyptian Language List << In any case, could someone help me out again by tell me the word order in which hieroglyphs are written? >> I'm sure you'll get some sensible answers, but in the meantime:- it is up to the artist, scribe, sculptor, etc, to arrange the glyphs in a manner pleasing to the eye, and which best fills the available space. Word, or glyph, order is subordinate to th above principle! Brian Yare ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 15:38:27 +0100 (MET) From: "Nederhof M.J." To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL align peasant First a note concerning AELalign: Since we will be working on version B1 for the coming (long) period, I have set my software to assume "version=B1" if no version is explicitly indicated, which means that you may omit the line "version=..." unless you are updating older material for version R, in which case you would still need to include a line "version=R". Now to the text: <58> ... Dd.jn sxtj pn ; <58> ... Then this peasant said: <59> Hw=k wj awA=k Hnw=j ; <59> You beat me, you rob my things, nHm=k rf <60> nxwt m rA=j ; you (even) take <60> the complaint from my mouth. nb sgr Dj=k rk n=j <61> jxt=j ; Lord of Silence, may you give me (back) <61> my property jx tm=j sbH nr=k ; so that I won't cry out to cause you fright. # tm here is the subjunctive negation (Allen, p. 256). <62> jr.jn sxtj pn aHaw {10} r hrw 10 ; <62> Then this peasant spent a period of 10 days # The first occurrence of "10" seems to be a scribal error, which is missing from version R. Hr spr n <63> ^nmtj-nxt pn n rDj=f mAa=f r=s ; pleading to <63> this Nemtinakht, (but) he didn't pay his attention to it. The hieroglyphic on the web has rDj.n=f, but this is not in keeping with version B1 in Parkinson. Regards, Mark-Jan ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:45:26 +0100 Subject: AEL Heracleopolis and Medinet From: "andre.malahov-dombasle@nomade.fr" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Hello all ! What does the "i" in Wong's and Carrington's transliteration of Heracleopolis (nni-nsw) stand for ? There is no "i" in the hieroglyphique text. And one more point. What idea does the V11 express in the district name "Medinet". Andre Malahov-Dombasle ============================================================================== From: "Denise Burmann" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL New member! Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 11:38:46 Hi everyone! I'm a new member on your list and a total beginner at reading hieroglyphics! I'm so glad I found you! Now I can get some real help! I've looked at other sites on this subject, but nothing as useful as this. A lot of the sites were doing things differently and in the end I was getting terribly confused! By the way, how do you translate the letters you get out of the hieroglyphics into english? Are they in another language? Glad to be here and great to meet you all :) Denise ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:04:44 -0800 (PST) From: A Dell'elce Subject: AEL scarabs help To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Hello, I am nearly newbie in Egyptology... so I hope you forgive me if ask help about the following: I recently bought a small scarabs lot... available for you eyes at: http://dellelce.com/egypt/scarabs.html I'd appreciate if any of you can describe them (one is not properly a scarab as shape.. and one is not a very good shape!) Thanks - Antonio ===== Antonio Dell'elce * http://www.dellelce.com * neaya@yahoo.com ==============================================================================