From: "Jenny Carrington" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Hatshepsut Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 16:10:52 PDT >Hr wsr.t kA.w "Horus: Weseret-kau (Mighty-of-ka's)" One of the meanings that Faulkner lists for kA is the 'will' of the king. Could this then also be translated as Strong-Willed? >nb.t.y wAD.t rnp.w.t "Two Ladies: Wadjet-renput (Vigorous-of-years)" Vigorous sounds good, but flourish is OK too if we are using the analogy of plant growth. There's the vigour of spring growth, and the flourish of full bloom. As you say, 'Hatshepsut was not young,' but in her flowering years. >Hr nbw nTr.t xaw "Horus of Gold: Netjeret-khau (Divine-of-Appearance)" I agree with 'appearance.' I always feel that the glyph of the rising sun should be read firstly with the sun in mind, equating the appearance of the king with the re-appearance of the sun-god every morning. >nb tA.w.y mAa.t-kA.w-ra "Lord of the Two Lands: Maat-kau-re >(Maat-is-the-ka's-of-Re)" mAa.t-kA-ra, I think is the correct spelling. I have a photo in a book of the North face which has only one kA symbol in the cartouche, likewise with Budge's transcription in "Cleopatra's Needles and other Egyptian Obelisks" (Dover 1990) pp. 102, 104. Truth is the Will of Ra. m Htp Jenny =========================================== jennycarrington@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Nook/7916/ArtWorks.html =========================================== ============================================================================== From: "Katherine Mann" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL A request Date: Sun, 16 May 1999 20:05:00 -0400 Dear Aayko I would be happy to help with this project if you would like. I agree that the solution for printing is to use Acrobat Distiller. The assembly of the picture and the finished glyphs is easily accomplished in Adobe Photoshop and the drawing of the glyphs could be easily done in Adobe Illustrator. I have good skills in both programs and I own them. If someone were to provide me with a sketch of the glyphs, laid out as desired and the scanned photograph, I could assemble them and place the finished file on my server for downloading by the person who will make the acrobat file. Sincerely Katherine Mann If you are interested in my photoshop work (as part of my web site) --> http://www.inetsonic.com/kate/tut/index.html An Illustrator project (part of an online course that I took) is on the same server (King Tut's Embalming Salts) --> http://www.inetsonic.com/kate/illustrator/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Aayko Eyma To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Sent: May 15, 1999 1:45 PM Subject: AEL A request > See http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ for AEL resources. Copyright in > the following belongs to undersigned. To reply privately, use address of sender. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Dear all, > > Perhaps there is a kind soul among you who would like > to partake in a little project of someone who contacted > me via the website. > The person's father died a year ago, and he is making a portrait > of the events of his dad's life (a little booklet apparantly?). > At the end of the portrait, he wanted to place the inscription: > > "Pops, forever on my mind, always in my heart!" > > in hieroglyphs, as he (and his dad?) are/were very interested > in Egypt. > ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 03:07:54 -0500 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Katherine Griffis Subject: Re: AEL Hatshepsut At 04:10 PM 5/16/99 -0700, Jenny Carrington wrote: >>nb tA.w.y mAa.t-kA.w-ra "Lord of the Two Lands: Maat-kau-re >>(Maat-is-the-ka's-of-Re)" > >mAa.t-kA-ra, I think is the correct spelling. I have a photo in a book of >the North face which has only one kA symbol in the cartouche, likewise with >Budge's transcription in "Cleopatra's Needles and other Egyptian Obelisks" >(Dover 1990) pp. 102, 104. > >Truth is the Will of Ra. Here, the translation of mAa.t would mean the goddess herself rather than the concept of "truth" or "order." This is made clearer from a statue of Senenmut, presently at the Brooklyn Museum, and a frieze of Hatshepsut's name of mAa.t-kA-ra found in the Hathor shrine at Deir el Bahri. In both cases, a rebus is formed in which the goddess Ma'at is symbolized by a uraeus as she was also considered a "fiery eye" goddess of Ra. I have placed an image of the Senenmut statue at http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/4914/ReschEgy/senmut-rebus.jpg The rebus is show by the Ka arms enclosing the uraeus (Ma'at) crowned by the solar disk of Ra. "Ma'at (the goddess) is the Ka [life-force] of Ra." Regards -- Katherine Griffis-Greenberg University of Alabama at Birmingham Special Studies http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/1692/index.html ============================================================================== From: EgyptiCat@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 13:54:26 EDT Subject: Re: AEL Learning To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk I'm new to this list also and just learning. I picked up a book some time ago entitled "How to read Egyptian Hieroglyphs" by Mark Collier and Bill Manley. Anyone used this one and what did you think of it? I'll vote for Hatshepsut's Obelisk as well. I'm reading a book about her now and this ties in beautifully! Cindy Smetana egypticat@aol.com ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL Hatshepsut (west -1+2) Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 20:24:17 +0200 >Can you understand >how Aayko has reached his transliterations and translations? Perhaps it is usefull if we for every line give both transliterations [='spell' every glyph] and transcriptions [=how it should be read] in this beginners' excercise? Then everyone who is at this stage only interested in reading hieroglyphs (and less so in grammar etc, or shy in suggesting translations) can at least post the transliterations, when (s)he has a Sign List at hand. 'Spelling' is often a good way to start, and then you can look for meaningfull patterns. For detecting the latter, block writing, determinatives, pronoun suffixes and the female ending .t [loaf of bread] are often handy signals for how to begin to chop up a line, as you will see from the below two lines. You will always have to return to the glyphs though, to look up things in the dictionary etc (transliteration/ transcription alone will not suffice then!). (line 1) transliteration: Hr-wsr-s-t-kA(3x) [nb.t.y]-wAD-t-rnp(3x) [Hr nbw]-nTr-t-xa-(pl.strokes) nb-tA(2x)-ra-mAa.t-kA(3x) transcription: Hr wsr.t kA.w nb.t.y wAD.t rnp.w.t Hr nbw nTr.t xaw nb tA.w.y mAa.t-kA.w-ra translation: Horus: Weseret-kau (Mighty-of-ka's) Two Ladies: Wadjet-renput (Vigorous-of-years) Horus of Gold: Netjeret-khau (Divine-of-Appearance) Lord of the Two Lands: Maat-kau-re (Maat-is-the-ka's-of-Re) [No potential transcription problems here, I expect, provided one is aware that wsr is spelled wsr-s-r (so with complements), which is often reduced to wsr-s. For us the latter looks confusing rather that helpfull, but apparantly the AEs thought that one vertical wsr sign alone did look less esthetic. The only other pinch is in xaw.] (line 2) [agreeing with Mark V.] transliteration: ir-n-s-m-mn-nw(3x)-s-n-t-f-s-i-mn-n-nb-ns.t(3x)-tA(2x) transcription: iri.n=s m mnw=s n it=s imn nb ns.w.t tA.w.y translation: she made as her monument for her father Amun, Lord of the Thrones of the Two Lands, [The first part is a standard phrase also used in other texts with other gods, the second part is a title for Amun of Karnak. The transcription will cause no problems to anyone I think - except when you were not yet aware of the 'odd' writing of father (in that case, spelling is contraproductive!) ] Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 13:03:23 -0700 From: Ron Fellows To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Hatshepsut My photo of the fallen obelisk also shows only one Ka in two cartouches near the top. Why would three be shown in the Berens cartouch? ============================================================================== From: "MSV" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL RE: Hatshepsut Obelisk Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 21:01:42 +0100 Does anyone want to translate the base inscription of the obelisk after we have done the 4sides of the shaft ?? ============================================================================== From: Matusel3@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 17:26:02 EDT Subject: AEL Question for you all To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk I am 14 and am really interested in starting a career in Archaeology or Egyptology when I am old enough, and I am wondering what I should do to prepare myself for this... 1. I have started learning Hieroglyphic but I would like to know if there is a good easy book that will help me learn how to translate it (I live in the U.S.) 2. I have studied mummies and other ancitent Egyptian artifacts since I was 7 so I have wanted to do this stuff for about 9 years (I wanted to be an Archaeologist at the age of 5) Any good colleges out there for someone wanting to be an Arcaeologist or Egyptologist? Any follow up on this will be greatly appreciated! Thanx Matt -- Matusel3@aol.com ============================================================================== From: "Vincent Brown" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Hatshepsut's Obelisk - Background reading Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 18:00:42 -0700 > Hi everyone, > > Well, we have 9 votes straight away for Hatshepsut, so lets go for > it! As I said before, there is nothing to prevent anyone from posting > questions or translations of the other texts. Ok then, how about just one line from the Book of the Dead - chapter 82? I would like to note the difference in translation of line 10 from Chapter 82 of the Book of the Dead when comparing the papyrus of Nu to the papyrus of Ani. Both Budge and Faulkner have translated the line from Ani as "..my throat is of Hathor.", while the same line from the papyrus of Nu has been translated by Budge and Faulkner has "..my throne is of Hathor." Referring to the hieroglyphic version of the chapter from Ani's papyrus, the word for throat, hetit-a can be seen to include the bull headed sceptre (F-10), the hieroglyph denoting the throat, or windpipe. Unfortunately I do not have a hieroglyphic version of the papyrus of Nu so I don't know which hieroglyph is used for Throne. Why does this difference between the two texts exist? Is there a connection between the words throne and the throat? Is it a case of Paronomasia? Vincent Brown. ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 17:02:39 +0200 (MET DST) From: Mark-Jan Nederhof Subject: AEL More unsolved exercises from Ockinga To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk I again made a list with some unsolved exercises from Ockinga's book. Could anyone please help me with these? In advance, thanks very much. Par 71 (5) iri.n=i mn.w n nTr.w sDsr.n=i xm.w=sn n m-xt smn.n=i rA.w-pr.w=sn Di=i rx wab.w iri.wt=sn Di=i wn ^km.t m Hr.t-tp (???) tA nb m mr.t=s I built a monument to the gods after I had consecrated their sanctuaries for the future and had established their temples, while I caused that the priests knew their duties and while I caused that Egypt was on the head of (???) every land with (???) her serfs. The word Hr.y-tp means chief, but I can't find another meaning that matches the context above. Can Hr.y-tp be put in feminine form Hr.yt-tp with similar meaning? I couldn't find a translation in Hallig or Faulkner that fits the sentence above. The other question is whether "m" should be translated by "with" here. Anyone has a clue? Now come three sentences that I can translate into English, but the sense escapes me: Par 71 (7) rDi.n=i n XAr.t mi nb.t h(A)y That I gave to the widow was as the mistress of the husband (?) Par 71 (8) Smsi.n=i twt.ww=i r Hw.t-nTr smAa.n=i n=sn pA.t=sn I followed my statues to the temple, after I had offered to them their breads. Par 75 (5) imi iri.y=i rn=k m tA pn r hp nb nfr Let me do your name in this land concerning every perfect law Can anyone tell me how to interpret these sentences? Also in the following, I'm not sure about the interpretation: Par 76 (2) Sdi.ntw=f n=i Di.n(=i) wi Hr X.t=i That he was taken away from [lit. to] me, was after I had placed myself upon my belly. Can anyone confirm this translation and the emendation of =i after Di.n ? I'm far from sure. What was taken away? Is a medical procedure the subject of discussion? (I'm sorry to mention that Ockinga does not give the context, nor provides information where the sentence came from.) Thanks again, Mark-Jan ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL More unsolved exercises from Ockinga Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 21:25:30 +0200 Dear Mark-Jan, I do not have the excercises, and thus not the glyphs, but the following comes to mind: >Par 71 (5) iri.n=i mn.w n nTr.w sDsr.n=i xm.w=sn n m-xt smn.n=i rA.w-pr.w=sn Di=i rx wab.w iri.wt=sn Di=i wn ^km.t m Hr.t-tp (???) tA nb m mr.t=s I built a monument to the gods after I had consecrated their sanctuaries for the future and had established their temples, while I caused that the priests knew their duties and while I caused that Egypt was on the head of (???) every land with (???) her serfs. The word Hr.y-tp means chief, but I can't find another meaning that matches the context above. Can Hr.y-tp be put in feminine form Hr.yt-tp with similar meaning? I couldn't find a translation in Hallig or Faulkner that fits the sentence above. The other question is whether "m" should be translated by "with" here. Anyone has a clue? < ***Seems to me: rDi.....m = to make into, to put in place as = to appoint as So: "I appointed Egypt as Cheif, and every land as her serf." So the parrallelism "Egypt rules - the rest serves", makes Hr.t-tp [Hannig p.554] fitting enough, not? >Now come three sentences that I can translate into English, but the sense escapes me: Par 71 (7) rDi.n=i n XAr.t mi nb.t h(A)y That I gave to the widow was as the mistress of the husband (?)< ** "I caused the widow to be like a possessor of a husband" [that is: I was like a husband to the widows, so they would not be poor and defenseless. I'm pretty certain of this one. It's the standard claim of all ANE kings: care for the poor, the widow and the orphan.] >Par 76 (2) Sdi.ntw=f n=i Di.n(=i) wi Hr X.t=i That he was taken away from [lit. to] me, was after I had placed myself upon my belly. Can anyone confirm this translation and the emendation of =i after Di.n ? I'm far from sure. What was taken away? Is a medical procedure the subject of discussion? (I'm sorry to mention that Ockinga does not give the context, nor provides information where the sentence came from.)< ****How is Sdi written? [Hannig p.843] Not like "read to me"? The placing of the belly is submission/fear, I would say, he fell on his face in awe and then the king or god did something. Yes, difficult without context. Just some suggestions, kind regards, Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== From: "Jamie Dakis" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL RE: Hatshepsut Obelisk Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 14:29:09 -0700 I would appreciate participating in the translation of the base. Thank you. Shalom, Jamie papi@mosquitonet.com -----Original Message----- From: MSV To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: Monday, May 17, 1999 2:02 PM Subject: AEL RE: Hatshepsut Obelisk >Does anyone want to translate the base inscription of the obelisk after >we have done the 4sides of the shaft ?? > > ============================================================================== From: Westland@netcomuk.co.uk To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Learning Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 01:28:25 +0100 Hi I'm up to chapter 5 on Collier and Manley...and I've found it alright so far..except that it entails a lot of too and foreing looking back at what things mean etc....slow process but very enjoyable Julie. ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 14:33:57 +1000 From: Rohan Fenwick To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL RE: Hatshepsut Obelisk MSV wrote: > > Does anyone want to translate the base inscription of the obelisk after > we have done the 4sides of the shaft ?? Sounds like a good idea. Is this inscription also separated into four sides and is it fairly simple grammar and writing or more complex? Rohan Fenwick z-fenwick.r@chac.qld.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 14:01:21 -0600 From: "Duncan Gold" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Learning I am learning from Collier and Manley's book now. Personally, I have found it to be a good introduction to Egyptian hieroglyphs. In particular, I like that it has the student working actual texts pretty quickly. Somewhere in the AEL resources there is a link to a review of this book that can provide further information (I am unable to browse the web right now, so I can't find the address). What book are you reading? The Autowitch (aka Duncan Gold) http://members.xoom.com/autowitch gold@esg-us.com ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 14:07:27 +0200 (MET DST) From: Mark-Jan Nederhof Subject: RE: AEL More unsolved exercises from Ockinga To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Dear Aayko, Thanks very much for your kind help. > "I appointed Egypt as Chief, and every land as her serf." I see. > ** "I caused the widow to be like a possessor of a husband" It's so simple once you know the solution :-) > >Par 76 (2) > Sdi.ntw=f n=i Di.n(=i) wi Hr X.t=i > That he was taken away from [lit. to] me, was after I had placed > myself upon my belly. > Can anyone confirm this translation and the emendation of =i after Di.n ? > I'm far from sure. What was taken away? Is a medical procedure the subject of > discussion? (I'm sorry to mention that Ockinga does not give the context, nor > provides information where the sentence came from.)< > > ****How is Sdi written? [Hannig p.843] > Not like "read to me"? The placing of the belly is submission/fear, > I would say, he fell on his face in awe and then the king or god did > something. Yes, difficult without context. Sdi is written phonetically using signs for Sd and d, followed by the stretched-out arm (hieratic for the determinative "arm with stick" for strength and action). So this is not very enlightening. But since indeed "read" is an alternative translation of Sdi mentioned in the vocabulary, you must be right, and this must be what Ockinga had in mind. The translation then comes out as "That it was read to me, was after I had placed myself upon my belly." or simply "It was read to me after I had placed myself upon my belly." Thanks again. Best regards, Mark-Jan ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 14:36:34 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL More unsolved exercises from Ockinga Mark-Jan Nederhof writes: > Par 71 (5) > iri.n=i mn.w n nTr.w > sDsr.n=i xm.w=sn n m-xt > smn.n=i rA.w-pr.w=sn > Di=i rx wab.w iri.wt=sn > Di=i wn ^km.t m Hr.t-tp (???) tA nb m mr.t=s > > I built a monument to the gods after I had consecrated their sanctuaries for > the future and had established their temples, while I caused that the > priests knew their duties and while I caused that Egypt was on the head of > (???) every land with (???) her serfs. > > The word Hr.y-tp means chief, but I can't find another meaning that matches the > context above. Can Hr.y-tp be put in feminine form Hr.yt-tp with similar meaning? > I couldn't find a translation in Hallig or Faulkner that fits the > sentence above. I think so. Another question is how mr.t is written. It might be the relative form : 'according to what she whishes', or if mr.t is really the word 'servant'/'serf', we might have here a circumstancial clause : "All land being her slave". > Now come three sentences that I can translate into English, but the sense > escapes me: > > Par 71 (7) > rDi.n=i n XAr.t mi nb.t h(A)y > That I gave to the widow was as the mistress of the husband (?) Here comes an important feature of comparison in egyptian : if the first term is complex, the second term is generally eliptic. For instance, if I say : *iw xpS Mnxprra mi ^Hr, I mean "The strength of Menkhepere is like the strength of Horus". You might find a non-elliptical writting, like "iw xpS Mnxprra mi xpS Hr", but that's less likely. The Egyptian felt the common element in the two nominal phrases didn't need to be repeated. Here, we have the same phenomenon, but what is ommitted is a "n". understand : rDi.n=i n XAr.t mi (rdi.n=i n) nb.t h(A)y "as much as I gave to the married woman, I gave to the widow" > > Par 71 (8) > Smsi.n=i twt.ww=i r Hw.t-nTr smAa.n=i n=sn pA.t=sn > I followed my statues to the temple, after I had offered to them their breads. > Yes, if we suppose this follows some initial construct (else we have here an emphatic construct, but that's not really likely). Well, a possibility the writer had statues of himself installed in the temple of some god, and made offering to them. I wonder, as mAa already mean "to offer", if in this context, we shouldn't understand "having established offerings". > Par 75 (5) > imi iri.y=i rn=k m tA pn r hp nb nfr > Let me do your name in this land concerning every perfect law > > Can anyone tell me how to interpret these sentences? "r" can also mean "according to", which fits better here. > > Also in the following, I'm not sure about the interpretation: > > Par 76 (2) > Sdi.ntw=f n=i Di.n(=i) wi Hr X.t=i > That he was taken away from [lit. to] me, was after I had placed > myself upon my belly. > It's taken from Sinouhe. "Sdi" is here the verb "to read" : a royal letter has arrived, and been read to Sinouhe, who, as a mark of respect for the royal orders, is "smelling the ground". It was after I had thrown myself on my belly that it was read to me". regards, Serge ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 00:01:43 +0200 From: Mikey Subject: AEL Ancient Egyptian bibliography To: sheldon gosline , Ancient Egyptian Language List , ScribeList@aol.com, ANE list , eef@lists.yale.edu Cc: Frankie Please forward this notice of Frankie's website to as many lists as possible. Thank you. Frankie & Mikey. ------------------------------------------- Finally the much required synthesis of Ancient Egyptian books is now available. Stretching from the early Predynastic to the Roman period, books are listed covering every facet of Ancient Egyptian history and life. Looking for a book on Ancient Egyptian foreign relations or astronomy? Then this frequently updated site is your first and only stop. Links to important journals and other academic websites are included for the serious student of Ancient Egypt. The lastest Egyptology books are also reviewed. Frankie's Bibliography can be viewed at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Cyprus/5094 ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 22:39:29 +0100 From: rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr (Serge Rosmorduc) To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: RE: AEL More unsolved exercises from Ockinga There is a little problem with translating rDi.n=i n XAr.t mi nb.t h(A)y as "I made the widow a married woman", which is that it would be : "rdi.n=i XArt m nbt hAy". Of course, the sentence is, as Aayko said, a rather standard saying, but you have to emmend the text a little to translate it that way. regards, Serge ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 14:20:15 +0200 (MET DST) From: Mark-Jan Nederhof Subject: RE: AEL More unsolved exercises from Ockinga To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Dear Serge and Aayko, Thanks for further help. Serge Rosmorduc writes: > > Par 71 (5) > > iri.n=i mn.w n nTr.w > > sDsr.n=i xm.w=sn n m-xt > > smn.n=i rA.w-pr.w=sn > > Di=i rx wab.w iri.wt=sn > > Di=i wn ^km.t m Hr.t-tp (???) tA nb m mr.t=s > > > > I built a monument to the gods after I had consecrated their sanctuaries for > > the future and had established their temples, while I caused that the > > priests knew their duties and while I caused that Egypt was on the head of > > (???) every land with (???) her serfs. > [...] > Another question is how mr.t is written. > It might be the relative form : 'according to what she whishes', Since the writing of mr.t comprises determinatives consisting of a sitting man and a sitting woman, I would assume "according to what she whishes" is not what was meant. The writing for "serfs" in the vocabulary however exactly matches the writing in the exercise. (It may be the transliteration in the vocabulary mr.t is a typo, to be corrected to mr.wt.) > "All land being her slave". Ok. This matches Aayko's proposal. > > Par 71 (7) > > rDi.n=i n XAr.t mi nb.t h(A)y > > That I gave to the widow was as the mistress of the husband (?) > [...] > Here, we have the same phenomenon, but what is ommitted is a "n". > understand : > rDi.n=i n XAr.t mi (rdi.n=i n) nb.t h(A)y > > "as much as I gave to the married woman, I gave to the widow" This sounds very convincing, and from a grammatical viewpoint indeed more attractive than Aayko's initial suggestion, since the preposition doesn't fit: > There is a little problem with translating rDi.n=i n XAr.t mi nb.t h(A)y as > "I made the widow a married woman", which is that it would be : > "rdi.n=i XArt m nbt hAy". Of course, the sentence is, as Aayko said, > a rather standard saying, but you have to emmend the text a little to translate > it that way. although I agree with Aayko that semantically his proposal is more convincing: (Aayko Eyma writes:) > However the meaning of his translation makes no sense > to me, I like mine much better :). > But I perhaps erred in "cause to be" as that would likely > have required 'm' (rDi..m = machen zu, Hannig 483)? > I had further "bewirken dass" (p. 484) in mind, but there is > no 'n' there, and mj "so als ob" (p.323). So literally: > "I caused (to) the widow as if a possessor of a husband" Serge Rosmorduc writes: > > Par 71 (8) > > Smsi.n=i twt.ww=i r Hw.t-nTr smAa.n=i n=sn pA.t=sn > > I followed my statues to the temple, after I had offered to them > > their breads. > Well, a possibility the writer had statues of himself installed in the > temple of some god, and made offering to them. I wonder, as mAa > already mean "to offer", if in this context, we shouldn't understand > "having established offerings". The vocabulary translates smAa as "(caus.) to make an offering". I don't quite understand how "causative" is reflected in this translation. I would expect rather "make (someone) to offer", or translated freely as Serge writes above: "establish offerings". May be one error from many in Ockinga's vocabulary. I still don't understand how to interpret "Smsi.n=i twt.ww=i", "I followed my statues". The statues are not carried so one could walk behind them, are they? So how is "to follow" to be seen here? Or is there a long line of statues along a path, and "follow" is to be seen as in English one can say "to follow a path" or "to follow the trail of bread crumbs"? > > Par 75 (5) > > imi iri.y=i rn=k m tA pn r hp nb nfr > > Let me do your name in this land concerning every perfect law > > > > Can anyone tell me how to interpret these sentences? > > "r" can also mean "according to", which fits better here. But what is the meaning of "do your name"? Perhaps "represent you", "act in your name"? Regards, Mark-Jan ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 17:10:06 +0100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: TuT Subject: Re: AEL Learning I studying Egyptology with DR Collier now so we use the book as part of the course. It's good for what's in it but the sign list and dictionary r limited to what's needed to do the exercises in the book so once u've completed it it's use is a bit limited. Daniel. >I'm new to this list also and just learning. I picked up a book some time >ago entitled "How to read Egyptian Hieroglyphs" by Mark Collier and Bill >Manley. Anyone used this one and what did you think of it? > >I'll vote for Hatshepsut's Obelisk as well. I'm reading a book about her now >and this ties in beautifully! > >Cindy Smetana >egypticat@aol.com > > > ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 07:52:28 +0200 From: Thomas Boraud To: owner-AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Re: Hello, I 'm learning egyptian language since September 1998, so I am quite a beguinner. Our teacher plan to make us work on the stele of Mery. Does any one have a hieroglyphic version (in Winglyph codes if possible)? Thanx, Thomas Boraud ============================================================================== From: LAHSR@aol.com Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 18:47:38 EDT Subject: AEL Re: To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk I would like to do the whole obelisk text. Where can I find the text of the base? Bud ============================================================================== From: Serge Rosmorduc Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 12:09:14 +0200 (CEST) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: RE: AEL More unsolved exercises from Ockinga > Serge Rosmorduc writes: > > > Par 71 (8) > > > Smsi.n=i twt.ww=i r Hw.t-nTr smAa.n=i n=sn pA.t=sn > > > I followed my statues to the temple, after I had offered to them > > > their breads. > > Well, a possibility the writer had statues of himself installed in the > > temple of some god, and made offering to them. I wonder, as mAa > > already mean "to offer", if in this context, we shouldn't understand > > "having established offerings". > > The vocabulary translates smAa as "(caus.) to make an offering". > I don't quite understand how "causative" is reflected in this translation. > I would expect rather "make (someone) to offer", or translated freely > as Serge writes above: "establish offerings". May be one error from > many in Ockinga's vocabulary. > > I still don't understand how to interpret "Smsi.n=i twt.ww=i", "I followed my > statues". The statues are not carried so one could walk behind them, are they? > So how is "to follow" to be seen here? Or is there a long line of statues > along a path, and "follow" is to be seen as in English one can say "to follow > a path" or "to follow the trail of bread crumbs"? There are a number of scenes in tombs which represent transportation of the tomb owner's statues to some place. "Sms" is used for people taking part in a procession, who are "following the god" in a litteral way. Of course, here, it's a little different, as the statues is his own statue (an alternative, would be to understand "the statues I had made" -- we would need the context). ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL Hatshepsut's Obelisk - west (3) Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 20:33:35 +0200 Before we get to the base, we better finish the shaft, people :). Nobody posting line 3? transliteration: s-aHa-n-f-txn(2x)-wr(2x)-r-sbA-Sps-i-mn-n-wr-S-f-Sfi-t bA-k-{act of force}-m-Dam-{gold}-{3 grains}-aA-wr-t transcription: s.aHa n=f txn.w.y wr.w.y r sbA Sps imn wr Sf[y].t bAk m Damw aA wr.t translation: [she made as her monument.....] the erecting for him of two great obelisks, near the noble gate of Amun - [who is] great of majesty -, decorated with white gold of the highest quality The last 4 words are of line 4; ending with bAk seemed a bit awkward. Transcription is straightforward, I think, IF your Sign List has O25 (not all do, I noticed). The last words do give a puzzle though. aA can be 'great' in both quantity and quality. As _ (r) aA(w) wrt_ means "very much, in high degree" I suppose this is meant here. Anyone can tell us about that construction? Is it like "Song of Songs", "King of Kings" etc? "great of greatness" = the greatest Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Lines 2,3 Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 17:53:07 PDT Would this be an explicatory sentence with iri.n=s being the 2nd tense sDm.n=f form? Line 2 is the topic. Line 3 is the adverbial comment (purpose clause)? Line 2 iri.n=s m mnw=s n it=s imn nb ns.w.t tA.wy What she made as her monument for her father Amon, Lord of the Thrones of the Two Lands, Line 3 s.aHa n=f txn.wy wr.wy r sbA Spsi imn-wr-Sf.t was to erect for him two great obelisks at the august gateway "Amon Great of Power," m Htp Jenny =========================================== jennycarrington@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Nook/7916/ArtWorks.html =========================================== ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 18:06:58 -0500 (CDT) From: pattiel@ix.netcom.com To: ayma@tip.nl To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: RE: AEL Hatshepsut's Obelisk - west (3) On 05/21/99 20:33:35 you wrote: > >Before we get to the base, we better finish the shaft, people :). >Nobody posting line 3? > We're too scared! :) Pattie ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 11:21:42 -0300 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Hector Rabal Subject: AEL Shipwrecked Sailor question. Dear List In the first line of the Shipwrecked Sailor, is there any reason (historical or other) to prefer "excellent" in place of "trustworthy" as translation for "iqr" Are there any files on mails concerning discussions on the translation of this Tale? Thanks Hector Rabal ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL Hatshepsut's Obelisk - west (3) Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 20:16:54 +0200 ---------- > >Before we get to the base, we better finish the shaft, people :). >Nobody posting line 3? > We're too scared! :) Pattie ***Hehe, I thought as much ;) Letting poor me do the dirty (home)work! There was a dozen people voting for this text, and none of them is partaking! (I did not vote for it, I just tried to get things roling) At least ask questions after others have posted the transcription./translation - there's no such thing as a stupid question, remember?. Btw, the ending of my post did get cut away by the server (odd?). It ran: ---- The last words do give a puzzle though. aA can be 'great' in both quantity and quality. As _ (r) aA(w) wrt_ means "very much, in high degree" I suppose this is meant here. Anyone can tell us about that construction? Is it a bit like "Song of Songs", "King of Kings" etc? "gold great of greatness" = the greatest [i.e. best] gold Or what?? Aayko Eyma --------- Line 4 is a treat, with several tricky bits - have a try, Pattie et al, if only the transliteration. :> Hector: there is a lot of material on the Shipwrecked Sailor in the AEL archives. I can sent you the stuff I saved as a file. It would be helpfull if such translation projects would get gathered/sorted for the website, as one downloadable file per project (text). Volunteers? :) Aayko ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 00:07:21 +0200 From: Patrick De Smet - Rodrigues To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Hatshepsut (west -1) Dear Ron, You wrote: > See http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/ for AEL resources. Copyright in > the following belongs to undersigned. To reply privately, use address of sender. > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Very nice translation. I am typeing the glyphs in Inscribe and have two questions: > > (1) I do not find the glyph for Horus with the double crown in either Inscribe or > Glyphscribe, nor do I find it in Gardiner or Hoch...and appearantly Berens was > unable to find it in his glyph software. It seems that this is quite an important > glyph. Why is it missing? [snip] It is in the Extended Library of the Winglyph program and is included in Hieroglyphica as G106... Patrick De Smet - Rodrigues udjat@skynet.be Udjat, Eye in the Sky ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 16:01:26 -0700 From: sfryer@prcn.org (Stephen Fryer) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Shipwrecked Sailor question. Hector Rabal wrote: > In the first line of the Shipwrecked Sailor, is there any reason > (historical or other) to prefer "excellent" in place of "trustworthy" as > translation for "iqr" Basically iqr refers to excellence or perfection in the performance of some job. In reference to a Smsw I suppose that "trustworthy might be one aspect of perfection. > Are there any files on mails concerning discussions on the translation of > this Tale? If you check the AEL archives, starting about May 26 last year, you will find some discussion of the story and its translation. The discussion spanned several months. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 18:21:11 -0500 (CDT) From: pattiel@ix.netcom.com To: ayma@tip.nl To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: RE: AEL Hatshepsut's Obelisk - west (3) >>Before we get to the base, we better finish the shaft, people :). >>Nobody posting line 3? >> > >We're too scared! :) > Pattie > >***Hehe, I thought as much ;) >Letting poor me do the dirty (home)work! Believe me, if I could I would. I think my biggest problem is the resources I have to hand are limited. >There was a dozen people voting for this text, >and none of them is partaking! (I did not >vote for it, I just tried to get things roling) And we are all in awe of the job you did! Keep it coming. :) > >At least ask questions after others have posted the >transcription./translation - there's no such thing as >a stupid question, remember?. Oh yeah?! Try me. ;) > >Line 4 is a treat, with several tricky bits - have a try, >Pattie et al, if only the transliteration. :> Still working on it. Will get back to the list as soon as it's coherent...the tranlation that is, not the list. :) Pattie ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Hatshepsut Line 4 Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 16:29:33 PDT Line 4. bAk m Dam aA wr.t (s.)HD.n tA.wy mi itn worked in very much fine gold which made bright the two lands like Aten. According to Budge's illustration in "Cleopatra's Needles" (Dover) there should be an 's' (door bolt) between the wr.t and HD. Can anyone confirm this from another source? m Htp Jenny =========================================== jennycarrington@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Nook/7916/ArtWorks.html =========================================== ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Shipwrecked Sailor Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 17:53:05 PDT Perhaps as a web page for the Shipwrecked Sailor discussions we could put up Prof. James Allen's analysis (with his permission) and then include links to the relevant weeks in the Archives for the rest of the discussion, which went from 26/5/98 to 29/12/98. For those interested at the moment, Prof. Allen's contribution of nine messages were posted from 1/10/98 to 29/12/98. (See the Archives.) 1/10/98 Lines 1-39 12/10/98 Lines 39-56 22/10/98 Lines 56-66 29/10/98 Lines 67-89 6/11/98 Lines 89-123 3/12/98 Lines 124-136 24/12/98 Lines 136-154 28/12/98 Lines 154-172 29/12/98 Lines 172-189 m Htp Jenny =========================================== jennycarrington@hotmail.com http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Nook/7916/ArtWorks.html =========================================== ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 16:05:25 +0000 Subject: AEL Sign list "Cheat Sheet" Hi, There is a sign list available on the AEL web site that can help you identify unfamiliar signs. This was originally prepared by Marc Line as an index to Faulkner's dictionary. It's very useful to print out and place inside the front cover of the book! http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/reference/index.html Mark Wilson. ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 21:24:23 +0000 Subject: RE: AEL Hatshepsut's Obelisk - west (3) On 21 May 99 at 20:33, Aayko Eyma wrote: > The last 4 words are of line 4; ending with bAk seemed a bit > awkward. > Transcription is straightforward, I think, IF your Sign List has > O25 (not all do, I noticed). > > The last words do give a puzzle though. > aA can be 'great' in both quantity and quality. > As _ (r) aA(w) wrt_ means "very much, in high degree" I think it means "wrought of very great (quality) electrum". wrt literally means "greatness", but is often used in contexts that can be translated into English as "very". It seems to be one of the few cases of a true adverb in ancient Egyptian. This is mentioned towards the end of section 97 of Hoch's grammar. The example he gives is "sbH aA wrt", "a very great cry" (Sinuhe 265-66). Section 115 of Ockinga has some similar examples: iw Hsi.n=f wi Hr=f r aA.t wr.t "He praised me for it very greatly" ink sS iqr wr.t "I am/was a very great scribe" Gardiner section 205, part 4 also mentions this. Mark Wilson. ==============================================================================