From: "Jenny Carrington" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Weni L33 - mdn.i.t Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 16:15:54 PDT Weni L33 Still wondering about -mdn.i.t- A question for Geoff Graham: What is your reference for the transliteration of this rather obscure sign? What object does it symbolize? The only thing I found resembling this word was in Budges dictionary. -mdni- (which has a determinative of a hippopotamus) - the name of a hippopotamus god. As the ancient Egyptian delighted in couplets, I suppose it is logical if one town is named after an elephant (Abu), then the other might be named after a hippopotamus. This would add emphasis to the extent of his control, from the dry southern-most reaches where elephants roam to the wetter northern area just before the delta. But then perhaps it has more to do with the word -dni- to dam off, to restrain. In the story of the Eloquent Peasant, in de Bucks Egyptian Reading Book, line 39, mdn.i.t is written G17, D46:N35, M17, X1:V11, O49. The last two signs being determinatives. V11 is also the determinative in -dni- (to dam). The symbol for the Aphroditopolis nome changed in later times from what we have in Weni to a knife. The word -dn- (with a knife as determinative) means to cut off (usually referring to heads). In Lichtheim, Ancient Egyptian Literature, Vol.1, p.104, Instructions to King Merikare, there is reference to Medenit as a point of defence against the Asiatics. Medenyt has been restored to its nome, Its one side is irrigated as far as Kem-Wer It is the defence against the Bowmen. m Htp, Jenny Carrington ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Shipwrecked Sailor L36-45 Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 23:57:30 PDT L36-39 I am probably taking too many liberties with this passage, but only to test out ideas. It's good to get the feedback. This is how I translated it originally, but thought it lacked something. -Indeed, the mast broke it for me, then the ship died.- -Those who were in it, not one was there.- I suppose he was able to survive, because he was not swamped by the wave, thanks to the mast causing it to part and go around him. Aayko: >***xt is masculin..... Faulkner does not indicate so (does Gardiner?) Yes, he mentions this in paragraph 92. A slip up on my part, probably because ships and parts of ships are generally referred to in the feminine, just ask any sailor. As xt is masculine, then the resumptive pronoun would have to be =f. >Which is a good time to ask why everyone is seeing a mast here? Gardiner has: xt-TAw, also abbrev. xt, mast. I shall continue with lines 40-45: aHa.n=i rdi=kwi r iw in wAw n wAD-wr "Then I was placed on an island by a wave of the Great Green." iri.n=i hrw 3 wa=kwi ib=i m Snw=i "I passed three days. I was alone, my heart as my companion." zDr=kwi m Xnw n kAp n xt qni.n=i Swy.t "I spent the night in the interior of a hut of wood, I embraced the shadow." aHa.n dwn.n=i rd.wy=i r rx di.t=i m r=i "Then I stretched my legs in order to learn what I could put in my mouth." I might think about the grammar for a bit before I add comments. m Htp, Jenny Carrington. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 09:14:27 -0400 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Gerald Kadish Subject: Re: AEL Shipwrecked Sailor L36-45 Jenny: You might want to try the line as "Of those who were in it, not one remained." Faulkner, 222 offers a verb spi, 'to remain'. The other question is what is the form of ntyw? -- Gerry Gerald E. Kadish Professor of History and Near Eastern Studies Department of History Binghamton University Binghamton, NY 13902-6000 (607) 777-2488 e-mail address: kadishg@binghamton.edu ============================================================================== From: AntoinViel@aol.com Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:10:51 EDT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Questions about Gardiner (Chapters 2 and 3) Hello everyone, I am working my way through Gardiner's grammar and have finished studying chapters 1 to 4. There has been no problem so as to correct the exercises since they have been throroughly discussed in the List. A few things are puzzling me, though: 1/ in Gardiner 2, page 37 - exercise A : translate into English Sentence #8 - sDm rDs pn rn >> this commoner listens to / hears the name. Why haven't we got "85rDs pn n rn"? Is there a difference between "sDm n somebody" and "sDm somebody" to mean "listen to somebody"? 2/ still Gardiner 2 - exercise B : translate into Egyptian Sentence #1 - The scribe goes down INTO another boat - In the discussion in the List, "into" has been translated as "m" (= in) Couldn't it be "r" (= to) Why or why not? If it has to be "m" how do I make the difference between "m"= into and "m" = out of. For instance, if ( without any context) I read" hA sS m k.t dp.t" do I translate "the scribe goes down INTO" or "OUT OF another boat "? 3/ in Gardiner 3, page 43/44 - exercise B : translate into Egyptian Sentence # 2 - The moon rejoices when the sun is on his horizon . This is corrected as " rS iaH iw ra m Ax.t 3Df" I thought I had understood that IW + adverbial clause is used in ( adverbial) main clauses but NOT in (adverbial) subordinate clauses (except, of course to support a suffix pronoun). For instance I can quote the lesson about adverbs in the AEL Website:" The third type of structure does not start with IW and cannot be used as an independent clause. It is used as a "circumstancial clause",85 the whole sentence structure becomes IW (noun) (adverb) (noun) (adverb)." The following example is given: " iw sxt.y m AH.t Hm.t 3Df m pr >> the peasant was in the field while his wife was in the house". To come back to Gardiner's sentence, I know that its structure is not exactly the same as in the example above: the main clause is in the sDm=f form, but the subordinate one is definitely adverbial. Why is there IW then? I am sorry to bring the discussion back to IW since it has already been dealt with, but I just can't understand. 4/ I am now tackling chapter 5 and it is getting tougher ( I will soon have many questions to ask!!!) . I know that corrections for the exercises ( up to chapter 10, I think) do exist in the site of the Griffith institute, but have they been discussed and commented upon in the List ( from chapter 5 onward)? If it is so, can you direct me to the right place in the archives? Thanks in advance you your help and thanks to everyone for this great List. Jean-Claude Viel - Vernon - France email: AntoinViel@aol.com ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 19:19:23 +0000 Subject: AEL (Fwd) Ancient Egyptian Forwarded on behalf of the undersigned, to whom replies should be addressed. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 17:30:28 -0700 From: mccall10 Reply-to: mccall10@juno.com Organization: Writer To: listserver@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Ancient Egyptian Dear sirs, I am doing a school project and am in need of concocting a brief ancient Egyptian "chant" or mantra, having to do with power being given to a chosen person. Can you direct me to websites or help in any way? Thank you. -M. McCall ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 11:57:27 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Questions about Gardiner (Chapters 2 and 3) AntoinViel@aol.com wrote: > A few things are puzzling me, though: > 1/ in Gardiner 2, page 37 - exercise A : translate into English > Sentence #8 - sDm rDs pn rn >> this commoner listens to / hears the name. > Why haven't we got "85rDs pn n rn"? Is there a difference between "sDm n > somebody" and "sDm somebody" to mean "listen to somebody"? sDm=f nDs "he hears the commoner" sDm=f n nDs "he obeys the commoner" > 2/ still Gardiner 2 - exercise B : translate into Egyptian > Sentence #1 - The scribe goes down INTO another boat - In the discussion in > the List, "into" has been translated as "m" (= in) Couldn't it be "r" (= > to) > Why or why not? If it has to be "m" how do I make the difference between > "m"= into and "m" = out of. For instance, if ( without any context) I read" > hA sS m k.t dp.t" do I translate "the scribe goes down INTO" or "OUT OF > another boat "? r has more the meaning of "towards" - the range of meanings of prepositions don't match very well with what we expect in English or French. m is more closely related to the idea of "in," so translate it "into" in this case. > 3/ in Gardiner 3, page 43/44 - exercise B : translate into Egyptian > Sentence # 2 - The moon rejoices when the sun is on his horizon . This is > corrected as " rS iaH iw ra m Ax.t 3Df" This should be: iw rS iaH ra m Ax.t=f The particle iw can only start a main clause, not a subordinate clause. It may be confused with the iw=f which can be used also at the beginning of a subordinate clause, and in fact led in Late Egytian to the use of iw specifically to introduce subordinte clauses. But not in Middle Egyptian. Another possible sentence structure is: rS iaH ra m Ax.t=f but that would mean "Let the moon rejoice...." Unfortunately Gardiner adds to the confusion by starting some of example sentences with a subordinate clause, which was not the normal order for Middle Egyptian at all. > 4/ I am now tackling chapter 5 and it is getting tougher ( I will soon have > many questions to ask!!!) . Well, answering questions is one of the things this list is supposed to be here to do, so ask all you want! -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 05:26:32 +0300 From: ofer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Questions about Gardiner (Chapters 2 and 3) Stephen Fryer wrote: > > AntoinViel@aol.com wrote: > > > A few things are puzzling me, though: > > 1/ in Gardiner 2, page 37 - exercise A : translate into English > > Sentence #8 - sDm rDs pn rn >> this commoner listens to / hears the name. > > Why haven't we got "85rDs pn n rn"? Is there a difference between "sDm n > > somebody" and "sDm somebody" to mean "listen to somebody"? > > sDm=f nDs "he hears the commoner" > sDm=f n nDs "he obeys the commoner" > well, I'm only in gardner's 9 excercise (so I'm not a big expert) but I do speak hebrew, and it's very helpfull in learning AEL so: as Stephen explained sDm=f nDs "he hears the commoner sDm=f n nDs "he hears to the commoner". in hebrew, like in egyptian (and I don't know about french :)) listen to someone means to do as one says. so by writing "sDm nDs pn n rn" you actually say "the commoner listen this to name" (since "pn rn" is "this name"). and even the more correct form: sDm nDs n pn rn" can't be logical unless the name tells the commoner what to do, and the commoner obey... > > 2/ still Gardiner 2 - exercise B : translate into Egyptian > > Sentence #1 - The scribe goes down INTO another boat - In the discussion in > > the List, "into" has been translated as "m" (= in) Couldn't it be "r" (= > > to) > > Why or why not? If it has to be "m" how do I make the difference between > > "m"= into and "m" = out of. For instance, if ( without any context) I read" > > hA sS m k.t dp.t" do I translate "the scribe goes down INTO" or "OUT OF > > another boat "? > > r has more the meaning of "towards" - the range of meanings of prepositions > don't match very well with what we expect in English or French. m is more > closely related to the idea of "in," so translate it "into" in this case. > well, actually I translated this one as "hA sS n k.t dp.t", since in hebrew (and I think that in arabic too) saying "going into a boat" is identical with "going to a boat". i.e., going into a boat is no more then going TO the inside space of a boat. as I understand it, hA sS b..." is going INSIDE the boat, and using "r" just doesn't fit. (for some reason I feel like r is more appropriate with people, but I might very mistaken here) > > 3/ in Gardiner 3, page 43/44 - exercise B : translate into Egyptian > > Sentence # 2 - The moon rejoices when the sun is on his horizon . This is > > corrected as " rS iaH iw ra m Ax.t 3Df" > > This should be: > iw rS iaH ra m Ax.t=f > The particle iw can only start a main clause, not a subordinate clause. It > may be confused with the iw=f which can be used also at the beginning of a > subordinate clause, and in fact led in Late Egytian to the use of iw > specifically to introduce subordinte clauses. But not in Middle Egyptian. > Another possible sentence structure is: > rS iaH ra m Ax.t=f > but that would mean "Let the moon rejoice...." > > Unfortunately Gardiner adds to the confusion by starting some of example > sentences with a subordinate clause, which was not the normal order for Middle > Egyptian at all. > I translated it as "rS iaH iw ra m Ax.t=f". the moon rejoices when the moon is in it's horizon. the moon rejoices in a certain situation. the situation is that the sun is in it's horizon. so it's like stating "the sun is in it's horizon. and this is the situation in which the moon is happy." > > 4/ I am now tackling chapter 5 and it is getting tougher ( I will soon have > > many questions to ask!!!) . > > Well, answering questions is one of the things this list is supposed to be > here to do, so ask all you want! > good luck > -- > Stephen Fryer > Lund Computer Services > > ************************************************** > The more answers I find, the more questions I have > ************************************************** Ofer Waldman israel ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:43:03 +0200 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Questions about Gardiner (Chapters 2 and 3) ofer 'ecrit : [snip] good comments. However, in > well, actually I translated this one as "hA sS n k.t dp.t", since in > as I understand it, hA sS b..." is going INSIDE the boat, > and using "r" just doesn't fit. (for some reason I feel like r is more > appropriate with people, but I might very mistaken here) just reverse your feelings :-) The normal preposition for 'toward' is 'r', except for people : *"May I come to Thebes" : *"iy=i r wAst" *"May I come to Amun" : *"iy=i n Imn" In the case of people, 'r' often has the meaning 'against' : *iw=i Sm=kwi r xftyw it=i "I have gone against the ennemies of my father" regards, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) IUT de Montreuil 140 rue de la Nouvelle France 93100 Montreuil FRANCE tel 01 48 70 37 09 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 21:34:47 +0200 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Questions about Gardiner (Chapters 2 and 3) AntoinViel@aol.com 'ecrit : > > Hello everyone, > I am working my way through Gardiner's grammar and have finished studying > chapters 1 to 4. There has been no problem so as to correct the exercises > since they have been throroughly discussed in the List. > > A few things are puzzling me, though: > 1/ in Gardiner 2, page 37 - exercise A : translate into English > Sentence #8 - sDm rDs pn rn >> this commoner listens to / hears the name. > Why haven't we got "85rDs pn n rn"? Is there a difference between "sDm n > somebody" and "sDm somebody" to mean "listen to somebody"? well, the difference is more or less that "sDm X" means "to hear X" and "sDm n X" means "to listen to X". A particular sense of "sDm n X" is to "obey to X". > 2/ still Gardiner 2 - exercise B : translate into Egyptian > Sentence #1 - The scribe goes down INTO another boat - In the discussion in > the List, "into" has been translated as "m" (= in) Couldn't it be "r" (= > to) > Why or why not? If it has to be "m" how do I make the difference between > "m"= into and "m" = out of. For instance, if ( without any context) I read" > hA sS m k.t dp.t" do I translate "the scribe goes down INTO" or "OUT OF > another boat "? Both preposition are possible (Hannig p485). So for your last sentence, the two translations are possible. The general context would be needed to lift the ambiguity. > 3/ in Gardiner 3, page 43/44 - exercise B : translate into Egyptian > Sentence # 2 - The moon rejoices when the sun is on his horizon . This is > corrected as " rS iaH iw ra m Ax.t 3Df" > I thought I had understood that IW + adverbial clause is used in ( adverbial) > main clauses but NOT in (adverbial) subordinate clauses (except, of course to > support a suffix pronoun). For instance I can quote the lesson about adverbs Well, there are a number of problems with Gardiner exercices, especially in the first lessons. The fact is that in good middle Egyptian, a sentence with a preceeding "iw" should be a main sentence (except for iw+suffix). In some cases, "iw" can be used to denote a strong opposition "whereas", as a forerunner of the late Egyptian "iw" ... which denotes subordinate clauses. Gardiner was well aware of this (and says it in his grammar), and I admit I find a little difficult to understand were he wanted to go with this sentence. "iw" is more or less an anchor that hold the following text, marking the sentence after it as "objective" and as "main sentence". Sentences attached to this first sentence can be circumstances or can be sequential (that is, they take the same value as the first one. Depending on the grammarian, you would be told that 'iw' is factorized or that there is an ellipse of "iw"). regards and good work, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) IUT de Montreuil 140 rue de la Nouvelle France 93100 Montreuil FRANCE tel 01 48 70 37 09 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 08:20:27 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Questions about Gardiner (Chapters 2 and 3) ofer wrote: > well, actually I translated this one as "hA sS n k.t dp.t", since in > hebrew (and I think that in arabic too) saying "going into a boat" is > identical with "going to a boat". i.e., going into a boat is no more > then going TO the inside space of a boat. > as I understand it, hA sS b..." is going INSIDE the boat, > and using "r" just doesn't fit. (for some reason I feel like r is more > appropriate with people, but I might very mistaken here) n is "to/for" a person > > > > 3/ in Gardiner 3, page 43/44 - exercise B : translate into Egyptian > > > Sentence # 2 - The moon rejoices when the sun is on his horizon . This is > > > corrected as " rS iaH iw ra m Ax.t 3Df" > > > > This should be: > > iw rS iaH ra m Ax.t=f > > The particle iw can only start a main clause, not a subordinate clause. It > > may be confused with the iw=f which can be used also at the beginning of a > > subordinate clause, and in fact led in Late Egytian to the use of iw > > specifically to introduce subordinte clauses. But not in Middle Egyptian. > > Another possible sentence structure is: > > rS iaH ra m Ax.t=f > > but that would mean "Let the moon rejoice...." > > > > Unfortunately Gardiner adds to the confusion by starting some of example > > sentences with a subordinate clause, which was not the normal order for Middle > > Egyptian at all. > > > I translated it as "rS iaH iw ra m Ax.t=f". the moon rejoices when the > moon is in it's horizon. the moon rejoices in a certain situation. the > situation is that the sun is in it's horizon. so it's like stating "the > sun is in it's horizon. and this is the situation in which the moon is > happy." That is wrong. The main statement is "The moon rejoices." The clause tells under what circumstances "when the sun is in his horizon." The main clause can, and for this meaning should, start with iw. The subordinate clause cannot start with iw, except as a carrier of a pronoun suffix. It is iw rS iaH ra m Ax.t=f I knoow Gardiner didn't understand the use of iw, and in fact altered a number of examples he quotes to leave the particle off the beginning of sentences. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: "'AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk'" Subject: AW: AEL Shipwrecked Sailor L40-45 Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 20:38:33 +-100 Dear Jenny, >aHa.n=i rdi=kwi r iw in wAw n wAD-wr >"Then I was placed on an island by a wave of the Great Green." *** Yes, I would translate it exactly the same. This is different use of jn then we saw last time (then jn + noun up front, as emphasized subject). jn+noun at the end of a line renders: "by + noun". Often the verb earlier in the line then is infinitive, passive, or impersonal (.tw), as one (at least: I) would expect. >iri.n=i hrw 3 wa=kwi ib=i m Snw=i >"I passed three days. I was alone, my heart as my companion." *** snnw has the man det. in it, although normally before the dual strokes (at least in Hannig). Here the man comes at the end, so hence you give "my" I think? Could be, but I'm not sure the switching of place makes a real difference. snnw seems the pendant of the w'(jw) we had earlier (L39), also with the man det. "I spent three days (while) I was being alone, my heart as companion." >zDr=kwi m Xnw n kAp n xt qni.n=i Swy.t >"I spent the night in the interior of a hut of wood, I embraced the >shadow." *** "(When) I was laying down in the inside of a shelter/hut of wood, I embraced the drying up (proces)." I think yours is better than Lichtheim's "Lying in the shelter of trees I hugged the shade", as yours takes account of the Xnw. The word Sw.y.t. is one I like to differ about with all the experts. Faulkner and Hannig also list it as "shade", but notice how differently all other words dealing with shade are written! Swyt seems to me a gerundium of Swj "to dry". It was not the sun he feared, he had to get dry from being in the sea! Swyt is also spelled like the opposite of shade - like Sw "sun" (that heats and dries). But I guess the possibility of my option would hang on some other texts that has this word spelled like this (Faulkner: GAS 59). >aHa.n dwn.n=i rd.wy=i r rx di.t=i m r=i >"Then I stretched my legs in order to learn what I could put in my >mouth." *** Yes, agreed. r + sDm (infinitiv) = "to hear", "to go hearing" - expressing intention/goal; so I like your "in order of"! sDm.t=f is terminative, expressing a future result as perfect, "shall have heard" e.d. So: "Then I stretched my legs to go experiencing till I would have given to my mouth." Something like that? That is: to go exploring till he would have found something to eat. So I think it is not the 'what' but the 'till' that is the goal. But my notion rests on r + sDm.t=f that conveys "till I shall have heard". Of course there is no second r here, so I'm uncertain about the way the two verbs are linked. Lichtheim has your option: "Then I stretched my legs to discover what I might put in my mouth." Best, Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== From: "Shaori !" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL anubis ? Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 10:48:57 PDT >Dear AEL members, >Is there a picture or photograph of Anubis holding the balance with the >heart and the feather ? > >Thanks, >Francesca I may have one lying about. If not, there is one of Anubis though it may not be what you are loking for... Let me know. Shaori Nefer pa ba em netert Sekhmet!! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 07:51:38 +0200 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Francesca Subject: AEL thanks ... anubis Thanks to everyone for answering my question about the Anubis picture. I forwarded your suggestions to my friend and he told me he found many pictures - mostly from the Book of the Dead ... Francesca ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:12:03 +0200 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AW: AEL Shipwrecked Sailor L40-45 Aayko Eyma 'ecrit : > Dear Jenny, > >aHa.n dwn.n=i rd.wy=i r rx di.t=i m r=i > >"Then I stretched my legs in order to learn what I could put in my > >mouth." > > *** Yes, agreed. > r + sDm (infinitiv) = "to hear", "to go hearing" - expressing > intention/goal; so I like your "in order of"! > sDm.t=f is terminative, expressing a future result as perfect, > "shall have heard" e.d. > So: In this case, I would favour a prospective participle, and translitterate : dity=i. Hence Jenny's translation : "What I could put in my mouth". Note that until I.... would be "*r* sDm.t=f" regards, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) IUT de Montreuil 140 rue de la Nouvelle France 93100 Montreuil FRANCE tel 01 48 70 37 09 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== From: "Peter Abdon" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 07:43:50 PDT Is it Possible to find the text about sinuhe on the internet? ============================================================================== From: Michael Tilgner To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: AW: AEL Text of Sinuhe Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 23:22:16 +0200 Peter Abdon asked: > Is it Possible to find the text about sinuhe on the internet? Dear Peter, the University of Marburg is preparing the publication of the text of Sinuhe. Presently available is a comprehensive bibliography and the transcription of the standard text. Comments are in German. http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~aegypt/sinuhe.htm Michael Tilgner mtilgner@baan.nl ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:18:24 +1000 (EST) From: Geoffrey Norman Watson To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Wenennefer? Currently there is an exhibition of antiquities from Leiden (NL) touring Australia. I have been looking at the catalogue (it has not yet reached Brisbane) with a view to practicing reading some hieroglyphs. One of the artefacts is a painted wooden Ptolemaic stela of one Pashery-en-Pakhem. The date is given as 150 BC and it refers (according to the notes) to king Wenennefer. Can anyone tell me about this king? Is he the Ankhwennefer mentioned in Quirke's 'Who were the pharaohs?' as a 'rebel king' with dates 199-86BC? (The date doesn't quite match). Also can anyone point me to a published version of his cartouche - some of the glyphs are rather obscure. Finally, can anyone let me know how to subscribe to the Osiris list? I have looked at their web site, but it does not tell you how to subscribe. An address was also given in one of the early AEList archives, but my message was returned when I tried it. Thanks. Geoffrey Watson Software Verification Research Centre University of Queensland Australia ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 18:53:42 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Collier's book I would be very interested to know how anyone who has started out by using Collier and Manley's new book _How to Read Egyptian Hieroglyphs_ has progressed using it. For anyone who has finished it, but doesn't have a nearby museum to practice in, the University of Chicago has on-line a copy of _Egyptian Stelae in the Field Museum of Natural History_ at http://efts.lib.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/eos/eos_title.pl?callnum=PJ1511.F45A4 This has stelae down to Roman times, and it is interesting to see how the knowledge of the funerary texts eroded in later times. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 20:04:32 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Shipwrecked Sailor L36-45 Gerald Kadish wrote: > The other question is what is the form of ntyw? Plural of nty, "those who" -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 20:25:39 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AW: AEL Shipwrecked Sailor L40-45 Serge Rosmorduc wrote: > > Aayko Eyma 'ecrit : > Dear Jenny, > > >aHa.n dwn.n=i rd.wy=i r rx di.t=i m r=i > > >"Then I stretched my legs in order to learn what I could put in my > > >mouth." > In this case, I would favour a prospective participle, and > translitterate : dity=i. Hence Jenny's translation : "What I could > put in my mouth". Well, di.t=i is definitely a nominal form, as it is the object of the infinitive phrase r rx "to learn." It is also a feminine (=neuter). The possibilities are a prospective participle (sDm.ty.fy) - but that is only found in the 3rd person - or a prospective relative. The prospective relative form is what Hoch says it is - and uses this passage as an example. In either case dit=i means "what I could put," or "what I might put" -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 20:48:09 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AW: AEL Shipwrecked Sailor L40-45 Aayko Eyma wrote: > This is different use of jn then we saw last time (then jn + noun > up front, as emphasized subject). jn+noun at the end of a line > renders: "by + noun". Often the verb earlier in the line then is > infinitive, passive, or impersonal (.tw), as one (at least: I) would > expect. in expresses the agent after a passive - and the basic meaning of the stative of a transitive verb in ME is as a past tense passive. So that is the meaning here "I was placed ... by a wave ...." > "I spent three days (while) I was being alone, my heart as companion." It is the same thing and smoother in Enlgish to simply say "I spent three days alone ...." > *** snnw has the man det. in it, although normally before the > dual strokes (at least in Hannig). Here the man comes at the end, > so hence you give "my" I think? Could be, but I'm not sure the switching > of place makes a real difference. snnw seems the pendant of the > w'(jw) we had earlier (L39), also with the man det. In Faulkner the man determinative can come first - the strokes are not actually the usual dual strokes, but the number 2, the underlying meaning being sn.nw "second." The man sign after the two strokes is the pronominal ending "my." > >zDr=kwi m Xnw n kAp n xt qni.n=i Swy.t > >"I spent the night in the interior of a hut of wood, I embraced the > >shadow." sDr means "to lie down," possibly with the implication of sleep, but it doesn't necessarily have an implication of night (remember the prince found Dedi lying down (sDr) having his feet rubbed.) I have a feeling that "hut " is too good a word, that "shelter" would do better - the sort of thing one might create from brances, etc., as a temporary protection. > > *** "(When) I was laying down in the inside of a shelter/hut of wood, > I embraced the drying up (proces)." > > I think yours is better than Lichtheim's "Lying in the shelter of trees > I hugged the shade", as yours takes account of the Xnw. m Xnw can mean simply "within" or "inside" - a compound preposition > The word Sw.y.t. is one I like to differ about with all the experts. > Faulkner and Hannig also list it as "shade", but notice how differently > all other words dealing with shade are written! Swyt seems to me > a gerundium of Swj "to dry". It was not the sun he feared, he had to > get dry from being in the sea! Swyt is also spelled like the opposite > of shade - like Sw "sun" (that heats and dries). But I guess the > possibility of my option would hang on some other texts that has > this word spelled like this (Faulkner: GAS 59). This is an interesting possibility. Hoch suggests qni Swyt as an idiom for "to pass out." > *** Yes, agreed. > r + sDm (infinitiv) = "to hear", "to go hearing" - expressing > intention/goal; so I like your "in order of"! to + infinitive has a similar meaning in English, as does a + infinitive in French. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 20:52:09 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Questions about Gardiner (Chapters 2 and 3) Serge Rosmorduc wrote: > ofer 'ecrit : > [snip] good comments. However, in > > well, actually I translated this one as "hA sS n k.t dp.t", since in > > as I understand it, hA sS b..." is going INSIDE the boat, > > and using "r" just doesn't fit. (for some reason I feel like r is more > > appropriate with people, but I might very mistaken here) > > just reverse your feelings :-) The normal preposition for > 'toward' is 'r', except for people : The preposition for both "in" or "into" is m. There is the same overlap in Latin with the preposition "in" which can mean "in" or "into" or even "on." -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 21:01:04 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Questions about Gardiner (Chapters 2 and 3) Serge Rosmorduc wrote: > Gardiner was well aware of this (and says it in his grammar), and I > admit I find a little difficult to understand were he wanted to go > with this sentence. I think he was expecting something like rS iaH ra m Ax.t=f, since he didn't recognize necessity of iw at the beginning of the main clause in order to make it a statement of fact. Of course, as we know now, leaving it off changes it from a simple statement of fact to (probably) a subjunctive or optative. He does state in his Grammar that iw is not used at the beginning of subordinate clauses, unfortunately he assumes that his readers can recognize a subordinate clause, which is not the case with a lot of people. Certainly in North America these days, there is a very good chance of getting through 12 years of schooling with only the vaguest notion of the difference between a noun and a verb, let alone advanced topics like subordinate clauses. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Shipwrecked Sailor L40-45 Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 05:30:06 PDT Dear Aayko, Just a few words about Swy.t, shadow / shade. zDr=kwi m Xnw n kAp n xt qni.n=i Swy.t "I spent the night in the interior of a hut of wood, I embraced the shadow." > Swyt seems to me a gerundium of Swj "to dry". I think if it was "to dry" he would have to be in the sunlight. But here he is talking about where and how he spent the night. Perhaps "embraced the shadow" means he had a good nights sleep. (Or if not at night, then "I lay down inside a shelter of wood and slept.") Another use of this word is in "The Dispute Between a Man and his Ba". Berlin Papyrus No.3024. Faulkners translation and the hieroglyphic text are in an article titled "The Man who was Tired of Life" published in J.E.A. 42, 1956, pp.21-40. In line 48 there is Swi[i.t] which he translates as "shade": swri=i mw Hr bAbA.t Tzy=i Swi[i.t] I will drink water at the eddy, I will raise up shade. He is trying to convince his Ba (soul) not to abandon him by offering shelter that will make other souls envious. But thats another story. m Htp, Jenny Carrington ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================== From: Corset01@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 12:49:16 EDT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Collier's book Stephen: Thank you for posting the address to the University of Chicago in reference to Collier's books on reading hieroglyphs. The Oriental Institute in Chicago is teaching a correspondence course this fall entitled "Hieroglyphs by Mail", beginning 9 November 1998. There is both a beginners and advanced course and the beginners will be using Mark Collier and Bill Manley's book. I recently purchased the book and will also be taking the course, so I especially appreciated your post about the stelae. Christina Warren Borders Books (www.borders.com) Michigan ============================================================================== From: Corset01@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 13:36:32 EDT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Wenennefer? Geoffrey: I believe the king you are looking for is Harwennefer, of the Ptolemaic era, who ruled from 206-200, followed by Ankhwennefer, from 200-186. Harwennefer is sometimes referred to as the "anti-king". Christina Warren Borders Books (www.borders.com) Michigan USA ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 12:52:36 -0400 From: "Thomas J. Lawrence" To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Collier's book Stephen Fryer wrote: > I would be very interested to know how anyone who has started out by using > Collier and Manley's new book _How to Read Egyptian Hieroglyphs_ has > progressed using it. > I've started using it a few weeks ago and have found it to be very clear. I was using books by Budge (heh heh) and compared to those, this book is the best thing since the bronze age :) > > For anyone who has finished it, but doesn't have a nearby museum to practice > in, the University of Chicago has on-line a copy of _Egyptian Stelae in the > Field Museum of Natural History_ at > http://efts.lib.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/eos/eos_title.pl?callnum=PJ1511.F45A4 > Thanks for this information, I don't have a museum nearby with this type of material in it. --Tom ________________________ Thomas J. Lawrence Software Engineer Western NY Computing Systems toml@wnycs.com _________________________ ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 12:52:11 -0400 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Gerald Kadish Subject: Re: AEL Shipwrecked Sailor L36-45 Thank you Stephen, but i was actually posing a question for Jenny to consider; I actually knew the answer. BTW, I stand in awe of the view that all independent declarative sentences or clauses must begin with iw. Would that! -- Gerry Gerald E. Kadish Professor of History and Near Eastern Studies Department of History Binghamton University Binghamton, NY 13902-6000 (607) 777-2488 e-mail address: kadishg@binghamton.edu ============================================================================== From: Corset01@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 13:18:18 EDT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Wenennefer? Geoffrey: I believe to subscribe to the Osiris List (which I subscribe to), you email: OsirisL@idirect.ca and write: Subscribe OsirisList. I will put forth your question regarding Wenennefer to a discussion group I belong to and respond as soon as I hear something back. Christina Warren Borders Books (www.borders.com) Michigan ============================================================================== From: RR2478283@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 13:49:30 EDT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL newbie Greetings all; Very glad to have found this list. Thank you, Mark, for its existence. In going through the archives of week1, was happy to see that the list included both accomplished scholars and rank beginners to 'keep it green'. I am somewhere in between, but definitely much closer to rank beginner. Currently digesting archives. Hope to be able to contribute later. Ron Ruppel rr2478283@aol.com ============================================================================== From: "Ed Burrucker" To: "AEL Mailing List" Subject: AEL OI Correspondence Course Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 18:21:43 -0400 Greetings, All! Could someone share with me the registration info/URL for that Oriental Institute Hieroglyph Correspondence Course in November? Other than being out of town for two weeks, I do not know how I missed that information... Thank you kindly for your help! Ed Burrucker eburruck@bigfoot.com ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 19:02:20 -0700 From: Judith Bost To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL AEL:Hieroglyph Course Group, Both the beginner and intermediate hieroglyphs courses at OI Chicago are already closed. They had an overwhelming response and I believe will teach them again in the spring. Stay tuned! Judith Bost jbost@yell.com ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 11:19:48 -0600 (MDT) From: Petra-neferu-nu-nebt-s To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Collier's book > The Oriental Institute in Chicago is teaching a correspondence course this > fall entitled "Hieroglyphs by Mail", beginning 9 November 1998. There is both Where can we find out the details about this course? Pam ============================================================================== From: Corset01@aol.com Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 07:54:41 EDT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Hieroglyphs by Mail Correspondence Course I have been asked by several list members to post further details on the hieroglyphs correspondence course. The course is being offered by the Oriental Institute in Chicago. It begins 9 November 1998 and is a 15-week course. There is a beginner's course and those students will use a set of reading lessons based on inscribed objects founds in the British Museum. Beginners will be required to use the text: "How to Read Egyptian Hieroglyphs" by Mark Collier & Bill Manley. Advance students should have previous experience in Middle Egyptian and will be required to use the text: "Middle Egyptian Grammar" by James Hoch. Both courses will be taught by having the students complete their lessons and mail them to the instructor. He will correct them and return them by mail or fax. In addition, an e-mail "chat room" will be available for students to ask questions of the instructor. The lessons are $145.00 for members for the 15-week course, or $165.00 for non-members of the Oriental Institute. (Membership is $35). The instructor is Steve Vinson, who holds a PhD in Egyptology from John Hopkins. He is a Research Associate at the Oriental Institute and author of the Shire Egyptology Series book "Egyptian Boats and Ships". He also wrote a forthcoming study of Egyptian boat captains and sailors from the late New Kingdom through the end of the Roman period. To contact the Oriental Institute in Chicago, their phone number is: 773-702-1677 and their website is: www-oi.uchicago.edu They are also offering an additional correspondence course on Ancient Egyptian Law and Ethics taught by Frank Yurco. Christina Warren Borders Books (www.borders.com) Dearborn, Michigan USA 313-271-4441 (work) ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 07:45:27 -0500 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Katherine Griffis Subject: Ancient Egyptian Law and Ethics (WAS Re: AEL Hieroglyphs by Mail Correspondence Course) Cc: Frank Joseph Yurco At 07:54 AM 10/10/98 -0400, Christina Warren wrote, to the Ancient Egyptian Language List: >To contact the Oriental Institute in Chicago, their phone number is: >773-702-1677 and their website is: www-oi.uchicago.edu > >They are also offering an additional correspondence course on Ancient Egyptian >Law and Ethics taught by Frank Yurco. This is follow-up information on this course, for those of you who may be interested: The OI will be offering two correspondence courses taught by Frank Yurco- Ancient Egyptian Law and Ethics Part I offered in the Fall of 1998, and Ancient Egyptian Law and Ethics Part II offered in the Spring of 1999. Each course is composed of eight lessons, completed over 16 weeks (allowing two weeks per lesson for mailing back and forth). The courses are held completely by mail, and include handouts and audio taped lectures. Fees for the courses will be $215 for Oriental Institute members and $235 for non-members, as I understand. The Part I course starts October 26, 1998 and continues through March 1, 1999, with a holiday break from December 20, 1998 to January 3, 1999. The course consists of eight lessons, including audio-taped lectures by the instructor. If interested, and one wishes to sign up online, check out http://www-oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/ED/Mus_Ed_Reg_Elec.html for more information. All in all, it appears to be an excellent course. HTH. Regards -- Katherine Griffis-Greenberg University of Alabama at Birmingham Special Studies http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/1692/index.html ==============================================================================