From: "Richard L. Tuttle, Director" To: Subject: AEL query Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 16:55:12 -0800 Hello. I've been actively listening on this list for a while now. What a wonderful resource! My question: I've just recently started reading Gardiner's _Egyptian_Grammar_ and was wondering if there is a place where I could find the answers to the exercises which he has in his book? Thank you for your help in this matter. Sincerely, Richard L. Tuttle, Language Centre Director International Webmasters Association http://www.irwa.org/languagecentre/ ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 18:54:01 -0500 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Troy Sagrillo Subject: AEL pAnastasi I (was: AEL Parlez Vous Egyptien?) Marianne Luban wrote: >I have a fascinating old book here, "Egypt Under the Pharaohs" by >Heinrich Brugsch-Bey, in which I came across something that I think >admirably illustrates how much Semitic had gotten into Egyptian speech >and writing during the time of the Ramessides. This is an excerpt from >a lengthy letter from a royal scribe to his former pupil, chiding him in >a sarcastic manner for all the Semitic he had used in a letter to him. actually the letter writer is taking his correspondent to task for *not* understanding Semitic (and for not having a good understanding of mathematics, engineering, supply logistics, and the geography of the Levant) [snip] This letter mentioned by Ms. Luban is the famous satirical letter of Papyrus Anastasi I (and personally one of my favourite texts, even more so because it is in Late Egyptian). It was almost certainly intended for teaching purposes (much like the story of Sinuhe) as there are a number of copies in existance. The large numbers of Semitic terms and toponyms in the text may well have been intended for teaching the scribes-to-be the use of semi-vocalic "group" (or syllabic) writing, which is quite different than "normal" Egyptian orthography. For those who do not know, there is a new publication of the text in: Fischer-Elfert, Hans-Werner. 1983. Die satirische Streitschrift des Papyrus Anastasi I. Kleine A"gyptische Texte; ed. Hans Wolfgang Helck. Wiesbaden: Otto Harrassowitz. [hieroglyphic transcription] Fischer-Elfert, Hans-Werner. 1986. Die satirische Streitschrift des Papyrus Anastasi I. A"gyptologische Abhandlungen 44; ed. Hans Wolfgang Helck. Wiesbaden: Otto Harrassowitz. [translation and commentary] Also, there is a very readable English translation (and *much* preferred over Brugsch's old one) in: Wente, Edward Frank. 1990. Letters from Ancient Egypt. Society of Biblical Literature Writings from the Ancient World 1; ed. Burke O. Long. Atlanta: Scholars Press. (p. 98-110) And for discussion of many of the Semitic words in the text, see: Hoch, James Eric. 1994. Semitic Loan Words in Egyptian Texts of the New Kingdom and Third Intermediate Period. Princeton: Princeton University Press. The text itself is quite fun to read, and the sarcasm very biting. One of my favourite bits is (quoting from Wente): "Haver you heard the name of Kyky, the dust ball? It is unnoticed that he moves over the ground, dishelveled in attire and tightly girt. If you were to see him at evening in the dark, you would think that he was a bird passing by. Put him on the scales and see how heavy he is! He will weigh for you twenty _deben_, excluding rags. If you should exhale close to him as he passes by, like a leaf of foliage he will drop down far away." If anyone one like to discuss some aspect of this text, I have Fischer-Elfert's books and can post transliteration of an interesting section. Cheers all, Troy -- Troy Sagrillo Department of Near & Middle Eastern Civilizations University of Toronto 4 Bancroft Avenue Toronto, Ontario M5S 1C1 Canada http://www.chass.utoronto.ca:8080/~sagrillo/ ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 01 Apr 1997 00:46:30 -0800 From: Glenn Meyer To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL query Richard L. Tuttle, Director wrote: > > Hello. > > I've been actively listening on this list for a while now. What a > wonderful resource! > > My question: I've just recently started reading Gardiner's > _Egyptian_Grammar_ and was wondering if there is a place where I could > find the answers to the exercises which he has in his book? > Mr. Tuttle, If you use a web browser, try http://www.ashmol.ox.ac.uk/gri/8gramt.html for the first 8 chapters, and http://www.ashmol.ox.ac.uk/gri/8gramt9.html for chapter 9. Glenn XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX Glenn Meyer ANE/Egyptology Enthusiast Card-Carrying Member of the ACLU Phone: 415-875-3414 Computer Graphics Software Engineer E-Mail: glennm@wco.com XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 10:30:12 -0500 (EST) From: Suredesign@aol.com To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL query Answers to the first 9 lessons can be found at http:/www.ashmol.ox.ac.uk/Griffith.html These are not the only answers possible but are a very good set, courtesy of Jaromir Malek. Al Berens American Research Center in Egypt ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 21:28:53 -0500 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Troy Sagrillo Subject: Re: AEL pAnastasi I Dear AELers, Here is a selection from pAnastasi I (from Section 16, lines 18:3-18:5), presented for discussion, part of which Ms Luban quoted in one of her previous postings. I'll give the MdC transliteration followed by my admittedly rather literal translation (no doubt with plenty of room for improvement, so feel free to comment!), and any notes. The hyphenated material contained within |...| is the fuller writing of the word previous in "group" writing (usually for non-Egyptian terms). For those of you new to Egyptian and/or only familiar with Middle Egyptian (such as in Gardiner's or Hoch's grammars), this text is written in Late Egyptian so you will prob. see quite a number of grammatical differences. tAy=k Sa.t aSA.t=ti m nsq* |n-A-sA-q| Atp.tw m mdw.wt aAy.w{t} your letter is abounding with sarcasm* piled with big words. *lit. "stinging, biting" ptr fqA.w=tw m nA=w wxA.w See, (you) shall be rewarded according to that which they deserve, Atp Atp:n=k r mr:n=k (for) you piled a pile (of them) just as you wished. ink sS mhr* |m-h-A-r| i:n=k an Hr Dd "I am a scribe, a maher*," so have you said (lit. "so were you upon saying"). *"maher" is a Semitic term meaning "clever, skilled, experienced"; the Egyptians used it as a military? title for a "scribe" sent to foreign lands as sort of a Jack-of-all-trades. inn wn mAa.t i.Dd.t=k if there exists truth in what you have said, mi{.t} r-bnr sip.tw=k (then) come outside (that) you may be tested. -- for those of you with MacScribe or WinGlyph, here is the coded version of this section for you to dump into those programmes (is this useful to anyone or just a waste of bandwidth??): t:A-i-i-k-S:a-V12:t*Z1-I1:t*Z1*Z1*Z1-ti-i-m-n:A-Aa18-Z1-q-W-T30:D40-A-t:p-A9-A24 -t-W-m-md-d:t*Z5-A2-Z2\r1-aA:a*A-i-i-W-Y1:Z2-! .-! p-t:r-i-M4-D6-f:q-A-W-Z9:Y1-Z2\r1-t-W-m-n:A-Z2\r1-W-xA-A-x:D54-W-Z2\r1-! .-! A-t:p-A9-A24-A-t:p-A9-A24-n:k-r-mr:r-A2-n:k-! .-! i-nw:k:A1-Y3-A1-m:a-h-A-y:r-A17A-A1-n:k-a:n-D55-Hr-Z1-D:d-! .-! i-A2-n:n:Z2-wn:n-W-U5:a*t-Sw-Y1:Z2-m-i-A2-D:d-t*W:k Regards, Troy Sagrillo University of Toronto ============================================================================== From: "Dave Seifert" To: Subject: AEL Standard Theory Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 21:49:30 -0600 Does Standard Theory as taught by Erhart Graefe make sense to anyone who doesn't already know Middle Egyptian? I thought you Brits might have a different point of view than what I get here in the U.S. Thanks A confused 2nd semester student ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 18:42:48 -0600 From: Saida To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL pAnastasi I Troy Sagrillo wrote: > > Dear AELers, > > Here is a selection from pAnastasi I (from Section 16, lines 18:3-18:5), > presented for discussion (snip some) > tAy=k Sa.t aSA.t=ti m nsq* |n-A-sA-q| Atp.tw m mdw.wt aAy.w{t} > your letter is abounding with sarcasm* piled with big words. > *lit. "stinging, biting" > > ptr fqA.w=tw m nA=w wxA.w > See, (you) shall be rewarded according to that which they deserve, > > Atp Atp:n=k r mr:n=k > (for) you piled a pile (of them) just as you wished. > > ink sS mhr* |m-h-A-r| i:n=k an Hr Dd > "I am a scribe, a maher*," so have you said (lit. "so were you upon saying"). > *"maher" is a Semitic term meaning "clever, skilled, experienced"; the > Egyptians used it as a military? title for a "scribe" sent to foreign lands > as sort of a Jack-of-all-trades. It seems quite clear that this particular "maher" referred to in the papyrus has scribal abilities, but is not clear whether all the "maherim" were scribes. Written out in glyphs, there is no doubt this was some sort of officer from the determinatives. The fact that, among these "leadership" determinatives, there occur a child before a man. Can this denote the "maher" implied some sort of junior officer? Further along in the text it says (using Brugsch) "Thou art alone, no stronger one is with thee, thou findest no (ariel) who prepares the way for thee and gives thee counsel on the road before thee.." When I gave some examples from the Anastasi in a previous post with the Semitic put down as French, I gave the term "seigneur" several times. "Seigneur", in French, means "lord" and I don't have the Semitic word, but this may denote a "senior" officer. "Ariel" is odd in here. This is a Hebrew name found in the Bible in Ezra 8:16. It means "Lion of God". The Biblical Ariel was one of the leaders of the Jews who returned from Babylonian exile during the time of Artaxerxes. I could be wrong, but the Anastasi should predate all this. There is another Hebrew term spelled *aleph, resh, aleph, lamed*, pronounced "erel" (with diacritical marks) having the meaning of "angel". Maybe this is the word referred to in the papyrus and was some sort of slang term for a "senior officer", just as "maher" was surely also slang. The text says on: "Before I wrote I shought me out a "maher" who knows his power (lit. his hand) and leads the "jeunesse", a chief in the "armee"." These "jeunesse" (youths) seem suitable followers for a "junior officer" and may refer to "new recruits". > > inn wn mAa.t i.Dd.t=k > if there exists truth in what you have said, > > mi{.t} r-bnr sip.tw=k > (then) come outside (that) you may be tested. > (snip) Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 23:26:32 -0800 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Stephen Fryer Subject: AEL Direction of Reading Something that I haven't seen discussed anywhere is the order to read hieroglyphic texts, such as the scene of Re/Osiris from the tomb of Nefertiri that was discussed here recently (image available at http://pr.mala.bc.ca/~fryersj/Egyptian/small.gif). In this and other scenes we have two columns of symmetrically placed hieroglyphs facing each other. Which should be read first? Perhaps the right-hand column first, since this was the normal direction of writing? Is there any general rule about this? Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services Lund, BC V0N 2G0 Canada ***************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have. ***************************** ============================================================================== From: "Eckhard Eichler" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 07:14:22 MET-1MST Subject: AEL Re: AEL Hieglyph fonts Hi; > I hope this is not too much of an unorthodox request, but I am looking for a > hieroglyphic font that can run on Windows '95. I have heard of one that is > set up according to Gardiner's index of signs that also provides > transliteration and, most importantly, can group the signs. The appropriate program would be WINGLYH, Hieroglyphs for Windows, which runs under Windows 3.x as well as Windowa 95. Check out more information at: http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/ccer/WINGLYPH.HTML Mit freundlichen Gruessen / kind regards ******************************************************* Dr. Eckhard Eichler Universitaetsbibliothek Heidelberg Sondersammelgebiet Aegyptologie Postfach 10 57 49 69047 Heidelberg Tel.: 06221/54-2584 Fax : 06221/54-2623 EMail:eichler@ub.uni-heidelberg.de Egyptology Page: http://WWW.UB.Uni-Heidelberg.de/helios/fachinfo/fachref/aegypt/ ********************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 23:26:29 -0800 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Stephen Fryer Subject: Re: AEL pAnastasi I At 09:28 PM 97/04/01 -0500, you wrote: >Dear AELers, > >Here is a selection from pAnastasi I (from Section 16, lines 18:3-18:5), >presented for discussion, Thanks. I don't have leisure to comment/discuss this text at the moment, but will certainly do so soon. >-- >for those of you with MacScribe or WinGlyph, here is the coded version of >this section for you to dump into those programmes (is this useful to >anyone or just a waste of bandwidth??): > This is definitely useful - there is considerable information in the "determinatives" etc., which is lost in a plain transcription. Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services Lund, BC V0N 2G0 Canada ***************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have. ***************************** ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 23:26:27 -0800 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Stephen Fryer Subject: Re: AEL Standard Theory At 09:49 PM 97/04/01 -0600, you wrote: >Does Standard Theory as taught by Erhart Graefe make sense >to anyone who doesn't already know Middle Egyptian? >I thought you Brits might have a different point of view than >what I get here in the U.S. > Thanks > A confused 2nd semester student > I'm afraid I don't know how Graefe teaches ST, so I can't comment on that. However if you perhaps ask about specific points or topics of confusion, we can perhaps discuss them. Many of the people on this list are working from Gardiner, and may not know anything about "Standard Theory," so such a discussion might be of benefit to many on the list. I should point out that we have a number of expert proponents of the Standard Theory subscribed to our list who might be willing to assist. Possibly Dr. James Hoch's _Middle Egyptian Grammar_ would assist in your struggles, as it is reasonably readable. Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services Lund, BC V0N 2G0 Canada ***************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have. ***************************** ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 09:44:27 +0200 From: Marc DIEBOLD To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL pAnastasi I & MacScribe or WinGlyph > for those of you with MacScribe or WinGlyph, here is the coded version of > this section for you to dump into those programmes (is this useful to > anyone or just a waste of bandwidth??) Yes this is agreat idea! And it is so much easyer to read! Anyone can download the free version of winglyphs and read your text. Marc -- /////// ( o o ) ----oOOo-----U-----oOOo----------------------------------- Marc DIEBOLD Universit. Louis Pasteur Strasbourg France 4 rue Blaise Pascal 67070 STRASBOURG FRANCE Intnl: Phone: (33)3.88.416.149 Fax: (33)3.88.416.060 France: Tel: 03.88.416.149 Fax: 03.88.416.060 mailto:diebold@cournot.u-strasbg.fr Francais: http://cournot.u-strasbg.fr/diebold/homepage.htm English : http://cournot.u-strasbg.fr/diebold/us.htm ---------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== From: kadishg@binghamton.edu Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 11:07:46 -0500 (EST) To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL pAnastasi I Just some brief response to Troy's efforts on pAnastasi I, 18:3-5. I assume Troy is using Hans-Werner Fischer-Elfert's publication of the text and has that author's volume of translation and commentary at hand. As Fischer-Elfert indicates in note d, p. 161 of the latter and in a somewhat lengthier excursus on pp. 244-46, the meaning of maher is a somewhat vexed question, both etymologically and as to its meaning here. I had two translation questions: (1) on Atp Atp:n=k r-mr-n=k: Does Troy understand this to read: "A pile is what you have piled up as you wished", taking Atp:n=k as a relative form? I wonder whether Troy might entertain the thought that there is a dittography involved here. The first Atp comes at the end of line 3, while line 4 begins with Atp:n=k. Perhaps the scribe intended to write simply Atp:n=k r-mr-n=k? Just a thought, since the formulation is odd as it stands. (2) As for inn wn mAa.t i.Dd.t=k: Troy has omitted an m from his transliteration: It should read inn wn mAa.t m i.Dd.t=k. The translation, however, is correct. I guess I would have used `is' rather than `exists' for euphony's sake. Gerald E. Kadish Professor of History and Near Eastern Studies Department of History Binghamton University (SUNY) Binghamton, NY 13902-6000 (607) 777-2488 e-mail: kadishg@binghamton.edu ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 14:59:03 +0200 (MES) From: Erhart Graefe To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Standard Theory > Subject: Re: AEL Standard Theory > > At 09:49 PM 97/04/01 -0600, you wrote: > >Does Standard Theory as taught by Erhart Graefe make sense > >to anyone who doesn't already know Middle Egyptian? ......... > > A confused 2nd semester student > > > > >I'm afraid I don't know how Graefe teaches ST, so I can't comment on that. > >However if you perhaps ask about specific points or topics of confusion, we > >can perhaps discuss them. > Es tut mir sehr leid, wenn die Grammatik, die fuer Anfaenger gedacht ist, ihren Zweck verfehlt. Was die Standard-Theorie Polotskys angeht, so wurde sie bereits in der 4.Auflage 1994 groesstenteils verlassen und in der 5., die in ein paar Wochen erscheinen wird, ganz auf den Gebrauch der substantivischen Verbformen im Sinne der sog. Zweiten Tempora beschraenkt. Das heisst nicht, dass man einfach zu Gardiner zurueckkehren kann .... Wo der point of confusion liegt, sollte erlaeutert werden. Erhart Graefe grafe@uni-muenster.de ============================================================================== From: "M. A. R. Barker" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Standard Theory Date: Thu, 3 Apr 97 09:43:05 -0600 DEar Stephen, You might recommend that this student go to Nigel Strudwick's Cambridge site on the Web and download the Hypercard stack there on Polotskyan grammar. This is really a nice little introduction to it all. I can't recall the URL of the site right now, but I am sure someone else can give it to him, if he cannot find it with one of the search engines. > At 09:49 PM 97/04/01 -0600, you wrote: > >Does Standard Theory as taught by Erhart Graefe make sense > >to anyone who doesn't already know Middle Egyptian? > >I thought you Brits might have a different point of view than > >what I get here in the U.S. > > Thanks > > A confused 2nd semester student > > > > I'm afraid I don't know how Graefe teaches ST, so I can't comment on that. > However if you perhaps ask about specific points or topics of confusion, we > can perhaps discuss them. Many of the people on this list are working from > Gardiner, and may not know anything about "Standard Theory," so such a > discussion might be of benefit to many on the list. I should point out that > we have a number of expert proponents of the Standard Theory subscribed to > our list who might be willing to assist. > > Possibly Dr. James Hoch's _Middle Egyptian Grammar_ would assist in your > struggles, as it is reasonably readable. Dr. Hoch's grammar is a model of clarity, compared to some others I have seen! I admit to mighty confusions myself! Regards, Phil ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 16:50:37 -0500 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Troy Sagrillo Subject: Re: AEL pAnastasi I Hello Dr. Kadish and other list members, 1st just a note to mention that I have put a JPEG of this part of the text on my homepage for anyone that would like to have a look at it. The URL is in my sig. -- the link to the text is at the bottom of my homepage. [on the maher] >As Fischer-Elfert indicates in note d, p. 161 of the latter and in a >somewhat lengthier excursus on pp. 244-46, the meaning of maher is a >somewhat vexed question, both etymologically and as to its meaning here. Some other sources for those who are interested are: Rainey, A. 1967. "The Soldier-Scribe in Papyrus Anastasi I." Journal of Near Eastern Studies 26:58-60. Schulman, A. 1966. "Mhr and Mskb, Two Egyptian Military Titles of Semitic Origin." Zeitschrift fu"r A"gyptische Sprache 93:123-132. Hoch, J. 1994. Semitic Loan Words in Egyptian Texts of the New Kingdom and Third Intermediate Period. Princeton: Princeton University Press. (p. 147-149) I also believe Schulman discusses it in his book on Egyptian miliary terms but I don't have the cite here offhand. >(1) on Atp Atp:n=k r-mr-n=k: Does Troy understand this to read: "A >pile is what you have piled up as you wished", taking Atp:n=k as a >relative form? I wonder whether Troy might entertain the thought that >there is a dittography involved here. The first Atp comes at the end of >line 3, while line 4 begins with Atp:n=k. Perhaps the scribe intended to >write simply Atp:n=k r-mr-n=k? Just a thought, since the formulation is >odd as it stands. yes, I agree, this sounds much more reasonable. I was having trouble with this to begin with and think this makes much more sense. >(2) As for inn wn mAa.t i.Dd.t=k: Troy has omitted an m from his >transliteration: It should read inn wn mAa.t m i.Dd.t=k. The translation, >however, is correct. I guess I would have used `is' rather than `exists' >for euphony's sake. Oops so I did! And I do tend to be a bit over literal (translating /wn/ as "exists" rather than "is") when dealing with a text on first draught just to emphasise the grammar and "clean it up" afterwards. Just a personal preference. Cheers all, Troy -- Troy Sagrillo Department of Near & Middle Eastern Civilizations University of Toronto http://www.chass.utoronto.ca:8080/~sagrillo/ ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 16:48:44 -0500 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Troy Sagrillo Subject: AEL Re: MacScribe or WinGlyph Hello all, I am glad that my inclusion of the MdC coded version of the text was at least somewhat useful. A couple MacScribe users have contacted me off list wondering how to get the coding "into" MacScribe to read. I thought other list members might like to know as well so I will post it here. 1. select and copy the codes in the e-mail message 2. open up TeachText or SimpleText (or your word processer, though this is overkill), and paste the codes into a new doc. 3. save the file; if you use your normal word processor make *sure* that you save the file as a plain **text** file or MacScibe may not recognise it (ie, don't save it as a MS Word file for example) 4. start MacScribe and then open the saved text file -- if all works out you will have glyphs Conversely, to get access to the codes in order to send them in an e-mail, just open up the MacScribe file in TeachText or SimpleText and copy and paste the codes into an e-mail. Make sure you strip out the header with the copyright info -- WinGlyph chokes on this. I don't know if this process is necessary for WinGlyph users as that programme operates differently and I don't use it, though WinGlyph files and MacScribe are compatable with one another (once MacScribe's header is stripped out). I would also recommend to others thinking about doing this that we stick to signs contained in the "Basic" library -- not everyone has the "Extended" library -- though this might mean giving a variant of the glyph in the actual text. With Regards, Troy Sagrillo ============================================================================== From: "M. A. R. Barker" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL pAnastasi I Date: Thu, 3 Apr 97 18:41:42 -0600 Dear Troy, I will be personally snookered! Your method of getting your text into glyphs worked like a charm. I have saved the file in MacScribe and am ready now to look at it. I have asked Otto Harrassowitz to fire off the Fischer-Elfert books by airpost. F-E also has a couple of articles in SAK #10, but I don't think they refer to this text. I already have the late Egyptian grammar. There is also a new French grammar: "La Langue des Ramses: Grammaire du Neo-Egyptien," Kheops, 1996, 16, Rue Albert- Bayet, 75013 Paris, about $105. Glossy paperback, many plates and figures in hieroglyphics and hieratic. Real purty! But *not* cheap! Regards, Phil ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 00:25:24 -0500 (EST) From: NebetHet@aol.com To: sfryer@prcn.org, AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Direction of Reading Em hotep (in peace!) In response to S. Fryer's comment on which to read "first" in a symmetrical set of lines (one on each side of another piece of art, facing inward toward it): Imagine the central object is a glyph and read from the direction it faces: Hence, if two lines are on each side of an image of Osiris, read from the place Osiris is looking. Hope that helps. Ankh udja seneb em hotep! (Tamara)=| Rev. Tamara Siuda ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 22:11:05 -0800 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Stephen Fryer Subject: Re: AEL pAnastasi I & MacScribe or WinGlyph At 11:28 PM 97/04/03 +0300, Stan Goodman wrote: > >Pardon...from where is it that anyone can download the free version of >winglyphs? You can download WinGlyph, fonts, etc. from The CCER FTP area: http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/ccer/ftp.html The demo version draws a line through the middle of each glyph, but this is not too disturbing for study purposes. Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services Lund, BC V0N 2G0 Canada ***************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have. ***************************** ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 3 Apr 1997 18:56:01 -0500 (EST) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Reading Exercises Hello, I am sorry that I have not had time to participate in discussions on list for a while. However, I just wanted to share with all of you a realization that I have recently had regarding the instruction of Egyptian. I have been tutoring a student for some time while he takes a first year class in Egyptian here at Yale. He has had his ups and downs with Gardiner and the whole learning process. However, finally his class has finished Gardiner and they have been reading Papyrus Westcar I for the past few weeks. They are working from De Buck's transcription. I have been watching a magnificent transformation in this student. He is finally able to read real Egyptian for the first time. The realization that I have had is not a new one, but it has come home to me in a very intense way. We need not focus too heavily on the emphasis in grammar. If one does not understand Gardiner fully when plodding through his text, it is not such a great loss. It really is through the experience of working with real materials that one finally can learn instinctively how to deal with texts. Therefore, I am, at this point, feeling like abandoning my efforts to create artificial texts as exercises. I recommend that we begin to discuss basic texts right out of De Buck. Those of you who have any background at all, and I think many of you do, will probably get much more out of following such endeavors than any other artificial texts. Would anyone like to work on the story of magicians and intrigue during the reign of Khufu from Papyrus Westcar I on this list? The first part of this papyrus is in a poor state of preservation, however De Buck has transcribed a good portion of it in the reader. You can find this from pages 79 through 88 of _Egyptian Readingbook: Exercises and Middle Egyptian Texts_, A. De Buck. Maybe we could put the pertinent pages up on the web and begin working through it together. If there is any copyright law which would prevent us from doing this, I am willing to do my own transcription from the hieratic. My hieroglyphic hand is maybe a bit easier to read than De Buck's anyway. It just so happens that during my undergraduate work at UC Berkeley, I made a complete facsimile of the hieratic text of this papyrus from Golenischev's plates as well, and I would not mind putting scanned images of this out there too, in case anyone is interested in examining the hieratic script. I think it is important to try and meet the goals of the list which Mark set up for its foundation, and I fear that we have digressed into too many different directions and not been able to provide enough stimulating exercises at a learner's level. I believe it is important for us to have a forum for discussions of various different aspects of the Egyptian language, and that much that has passed over my screen in the early development of this list has been of extreme value. However the goals of the list have not been fulfilled up till now. I believe that what is in order now is for us to look at a well known text for which there are many good translations. This could provide a good starting point for many people. I am certainly willing to put myself as much in the service of those who are interested in learning in this fashion as my time constraints will allow. Sincerely, Geoffrey Graham ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 22:11:09 -0800 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Stephen Fryer Subject: Re: AEL pAnastasi I The only translation I have of the passage under discussion is Erman's: Thy letter aboundeth in thrusts, and is loaded with great words. Behold, they shall reward thee, even as thou look for a load, and shall lay more on thee than thou wouldst. "I am a scribe, a mahir," thou sayest again. There is truth in thy words, say we. Come forth that thou mayest be tested. In spite of the rather archaic English used, he seems to get right into the spirit of things. At 04:50 PM 97/04/03 -0500, you wrote: > >>(1) on Atp Atp:n=k r-mr-n=k: Does Troy understand this to read: "A >>pile is what you have piled up as you wished", taking Atp:n=k as a >>relative form? I wonder whether Troy might entertain the thought that >>there is a dittography involved here. The first Atp comes at the end of >>line 3, while line 4 begins with Atp:n=k. Perhaps the scribe intended to >>write simply Atp:n=k r-mr-n=k? Just a thought, since the formulation is >>odd as it stands. > >yes, I agree, this sounds much more reasonable. I was having trouble with >this to begin with and think this makes much more sense. > I was wondering about the possibility of dittography here too - the information that there is a line break between the words makes this a more attractive hypothesis. I'm not very familiar with the Late Egyptian idiom used in this document, however I would like to suggest some other possibilities for discussion: (1)Taking Troy's translation of the preceding phrase ("you shall be rewarded according to that which you deserve") we might then have: Atp Atp(w) n=k A load has been loaded for you The "Atp"s being word plays referring back to the loading of the original document with big words. (2) Somewhat like Erman's solution (he obviously had to struggle a little with this one) we have "See, you are rewarded in the searches for a load: it is loaded for you... In either case, we may have two possibilities for translating "r mr.n.k". It may be, as Erman thought, "more than you wanted". Or it might be "to (the extent) you wanted" (or possibly more like "as much as you might ever have wanted") Not having any of the previous literature about this passage (apart from Erman's translation), I am here having to completely re-invent the wheel. And perhaps my lack of understanding of Late Egyptian idioms is leading me to invent a square wheel (but it is interesting to at least try!) A question which puzzles me is the translation of "inn wn mAa.t m i.Dd.t.k". To me the first word looks like a 1st pers. plur. indep. pron. ("we"). This is followed by "wn" which appears to me to be a modal form ("Prospective") of "wwn" = "to be". Perhaps we should be leaning in the direction of Erman and translate something like "We (say): 'There may be truth in what you say.'" So, what do people think? Square wheel? Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services Lund, BC V0N 2G0 Canada ***************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have. ***************************** ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 03 Apr 1997 22:11:07 -0800 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Stephen Fryer Subject: Re: AEL Re: MacScribe or WinGlyph At 04:48 PM 97/04/03 -0500, you wrote: > >I don't know if this process is necessary for WinGlyph users as that >programme operates differently and I don't use it, though WinGlyph files >and MacScribe are compatable with one another (once MacScribe's header is >stripped out). > Gee, I thought Macs were supposed to be easier to use ;-> For Winglyph all you need to do is copy the coded glyphs out of the e-mail, and paste them into Win Glyph in the editing (main) window. To put coded hieroglyphic text into an email, just copy the editing window (with the demo version at least you can only copy the whole text not just part of it), and paste it into your message. Tres simple, n'est-ce pas? >I would also recommend to others thinking about doing this that we stick to >signs contained in the "Basic" library -- not everyone has the "Extended" >library -- though this might mean giving a variant of the glyph in the >actual text. This is a very good idea. Also, it would be very useful if the original line/column breaks were indicated in the text. Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services Lund, BC V0N 2G0 Canada ***************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have. ***************************** ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 08:38:04 +0200 From: Marc DIEBOLD To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL pAnastasi I & MacScribe or WinGlyph > Pardon...from where is it that anyone can download the free version of > winglyphs? On Hans van de Berg's CCER Glyph for Windows page at the following location: http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/ccer/ you can read: "A WinGlyph demo file is available from our FTP-site (131.211.69.31). See our FTP-Corner page for more information" and download, for free, a Glyph for Windows demo file which enables you to read any text written in the coded version of Glyph for Windows. Of course, you will not get for free a software you can use for publishing texts: the only demo aspect is the fact that this version draws a horizontal line through each hieroglyphic sign. But the demo is very useful to "see" the signs! and better than transliteration, in th case of pAnastasi I for example. So downolad at: http://www.ccer.ggl.ruu.nl/ccer/ You'll also find: -a transliteration font, -a coptic font -egyptian games, like senet -- Amicales salutations / kind regards / mit freundlichen Gruessen, Marc. /////// ( o o ) ----oOOo-----U-----oOOo----------------------------------- Marc DIEBOLD Universit. Louis Pasteur Strasbourg France 4 rue Blaise Pascal 67070 STRASBOURG FRANCE Internl: Phone: (33)3.88.416.149 Fax: (33)3.88.416.060 France : Tel: 03.88.416.149 Fax: 03.88.416.060 mailto:diebold@cournot.u-strasbg.fr Francais: http://cournot.u-strasbg.fr/diebold/homepage.htm English : http://cournot.u-strasbg.fr/diebold/us.htm ---------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 10:34:16 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL Mr Galan's comments Yesterday I wrote: > The unique thing about AEL is that we have a number of professional > Egyptologists on the list who are willing to help out with any questions > about the language, at any level of difficulty. These people will loose > interest in the list if it becomes too trivial. Now that we have this > list, let's not spoil it!! There seems to have been some confusion about my use of the word "trivial". I simply meant that we should stick to the subject rather than get distracted with more general Egyptology, or things that aren't even Egyptology. The *last* thing I would want to imply is that beginners' questions are not relevant. They most definitely are. The list is, after all, for people to learn from. Sorry for the confusion, Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk ============================================================================== From: sgoodman@netvision.net.il To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 14:12:51 +0300 Subject: Re: AEL pAnastasi I ** Reply to note from Troy Sagrillo Thu, 3 Apr 1997 16:50:37 -0500 > [on the maher] > >As Fischer-Elfert indicates in note d, p. 161 of the latter and in a > >somewhat lengthier excursus on pp. 244-46, the meaning of maher is a > >somewhat vexed question, both etymologically and as to its meaning here. Thanks for this remark. I was having great difficulty understanding how Semitic mhr could come to mean a junior officer (although I tried to be pretty snappy when I was one). > Schulman, A. 1966. "Mhr and Mskb, Two Egyptian Military Titles of Semitic > Origin." Zeitschrift fu"r A"gyptische Sprache 93:123-132. Could the skb of the second title be a corruption from an original sgb? There are words on this root that have meanings like "high", which is reasonable for a senior officer. %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% % Stan Goodman % % Qiryat Tiv'on % % ISRAEL % %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 09:45:43 -0500 (EST) From: To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL pAnastasi I I found Stephen Fryer's response to the pAnastasi passage of interest. The grammar he suggests for Atp Atp(w) n=k is certainly possible, but I am not sure I follow what it would mean. I find the Erman translation somewhat opaque at this juncture too. I take it Stephen understands the first Atp as a noun, the second as a stative. I should note that the compound preposition r-mer-n is well attested in Late Egyptian. As much as I prefer not to emend a text, I am more inclined to the dittography idea. As for Stephen's comment on inn. It is true that the 1st person pl. independent pronoun can be written that way (it normally has the small jar in it, but that's hardly decisive), but the word for `if' is clearly attested in this writing (cf. Lesko, Dictionary of Late Egyptian, I, 38, bottom). I am not quite clear what he means by a `modal form ("Prospective")'. In order to make it work, Stephen has to assume an unstated "(say)". It is a bit difficult to see who `we' would represent here; it does not seem to jibe with the context, especially if it is prospective; a prospective participle would lead to "It is we who exist . . . ." In my opinion, Troy has properly read the passage as a challenge, a common element of this exchange. Stephen, i do not think you are re-inventing the wheel quite. I like your attempts to keep an open mind about alternative readings. Having something like the Cerny-Groll, A Late Egyptian Grammar would provide you access to the Late Egyptian forms and usages. Thanks for your efforts. -- Gerry Gerald E. Kadish Professor of History and Near Eastern Studies Department of History Binghamton University (SUNY) Binghamton, NY 13902-6000 (607) 777-2488 e-mail: kadishg@binghamton.edu ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 04 Apr 1997 07:57:56 -0800 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Stephen Fryer Subject: Re: AEL Reading Exercises At 06:56 PM 97/04/03 -0500, you wrote: >They are working from De Buck's transcription. I have >been watching a magnificent transformation in this student. He is finally >able to read real Egyptian for the first time. One of the good points of Hoch's _Middle Egyptian Grammar_ is that he gets us into actual texts as soon as possible, with the Shipwrecked Sailor story formaing a major component of the exercises. >Would anyone like to work on the story of magicians and intrigue during >the reign of Khufu from Papyrus Westcar I on this list? The first part of >this papyrus is in a poor state of preservation, however De Buck has >transcribed a good portion of it in the reader. You can find this from >pages 79 through 88 of _Egyptian Readingbook: Exercises and Middle >Egyptian Texts_, A. De Buck. Maybe we could put the pertinent pages up on >the web and begin working through it together. > >If there is any copyright law which would prevent us from doing this, I am >willing to do my own transcription from the hieratic. My hieroglyphic >hand is maybe a bit easier to read than De Buck's anyway. It just so >happens that during my undergraduate work at UC Berkeley, I made a >complete facsimile of the hieratic text of this papyrus from Golenischev's >plates as well, and I would not mind putting scanned images of this out >there too, in case anyone is interested in examining the hieratic script. This would, I think be very valuable. I'm not sure what the international copyright laws specify, but I think it is usually taken that not-for-profit use, so long as it is not more than a single chapter of a book, or not more than 10% is considered acceptable use. I think there is probably considerable confusion in legal circles over how this applies to the Web. As for the hieratic facsimiles, I think they too would be extremely useful. For one thing, most of the "interesting" texts were written in Hieratic, so it is good to learn this script too. Since there don't appear to be any books giving instruction in reading hieratic, if we can have parallel texts in hieroglyphic and hieratic to learn from, wonderful! Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services Lund, BC V0N 2G0 Canada ***************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have. ***************************** ============================================================================== From: akirklan@unlgrad1.unl.edu (Alan Kirkland) Subject: AEL mission To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 10:20:41 -0600 (CST) Dear all, I think that Mark's clarification of what the Ancient Egyptian Language list is was well spoken. It was indeed created for the discussion and transmission of information regarding the written language of ancient Egypt. There are other lists that serve the purpose of forums for general Egyptology. There has been a lot of extremely useful discussion of grammatical and morphemic data so far, and thankfully it has been kept at a level that doesn't discourage the beginners on the list. I don't often post right now, but I do keep up with most of the threads of discussion. I for one am very thankful for this list, and so are my students. We regularly download and print the daily posts, and then duscuss them in class. I hope to be able to continue to do this without having to go through and select for relevance. I'm really not criticizing the discussion of other topics (the gods know I enjoy it, and digress often!), just trying to put in my two deben for sticking to the mission of the list. There are few enough teaching tools out there for this language, and this list is a thesaurus of incalculable value. I can only speak for myself in this, but I feel that many of us are united in the desire to study and further the existing body of knowledge regarding ancient Egyptian. The Magnificent Seven of the University of Nebraska's Egyptian language program thank each and every individual on this list for all of the stimulating and fascinating discussion. We all learn constantly; let us do so with a united purpose. Cheers all, Alan Kirkland Sarah Guthmann Ann Putz Carrie Strope Deanne Hyde Jennifer Torres Danielle Tjaden -- "We stand on the shoulders of Giants, who were lifted up by Titans, and all we can and will accomplish we owe to them." Alan F.C.W. Kirkland University of Nebraska akirklan@unlgrad1.unl.edu ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 11:42:04 -0500 (EST) From: EHAshment@aol.com To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL pAnastasi I On 4 April 1997, Stephen Fryer wrote: >The only translation I have of the passage under discussion is Erman's: > > Thy letter aboundeth in thrusts, and is loaded with great words. >Behold, they shall reward thee, even as thou look for a load, and shall lay >more on thee than thou wouldst. > "I am a scribe, a mahir," thou sayest again. There is truth in thy >words, say we. Come forth that thou mayest be tested. > >In spite of the rather archaic English used, he seems to get right into the >spirit of things. Here are a couple additional translations into English. Gardiner, on page 20* of his study of Pap. Anastasi I (his hieroglyphic transcription is on page 60, 18.4), translated the passage this way: Thy letter abounds in pointed speeches(?), is overloaded with big words. Behold they [the big words] will(?) reward thee with that which they demand(??); thou has piled up (words) at thy good pleasure. "I am a scribe, a Maher", thou dost retort. (If) there is truth in what thou saysest, say I, come forth that thou mayest be tested. In a footnote, Gardiner proposes that his second sentence may mean, 'thou has piled up big words in a reckless manner, and must now accept from me the retort which they seem themselves to ask for.' Gardiner, Alan H. [1911] 1964. _Egyptian Hieratic Texts_. Series I: Literary Texts of the New Kingdom. Part I: The Papyrus Anastisi I and the Papyrus Koller, Together with the Parallel Texts. Reprint, Hildesheim: Georg Olms Verlagsbuchhandlung. Here is Wilson's translation of the same passage: Thy letter abounds in _cutting speeches_, is loaded with big words. See, thou art rewarded with that which was sought -- a greater load for thee than thou has wished. "I am a scribe, a _mahir_!" thou sayest again. If there be truth in what thou sayest, come out that thou mayest be tested! (476f.) Wilson, John A. 1969. An Egyptian Letter. In _Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament_, edited by James B. Pritchard. 3d ed. Princeton: Princeton University Press. Edward H. Ashment (Ed) EHAshment@aol.com ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 19:56:12 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Reading Exercises A short remark about texts : There are quite a few old editions that might be in the public domain. I am currently typing the Amdouat text in Pierret's 'textes inedits du Louvre', a book from the late XIXth century. I wonder whether or not Sethe's Lesestucke might be free of rights. Of course, more recent versions are usually better, in particular with hieratic texts. Plus : I have set a (bad, but should get better) cgi program that could act as a server to give a text bitmap from a Manuel de Codage encoding. It can be accessed like this on a web page : see http://www.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/try.html for an example. regards, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) 5, rue Beranger 92240 Malakoff tel 01 48 70 37 13 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://www.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 15:06:07 -0500 (EST) From: Suredesign@aol.com To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL DeBuck/Copyright The current edition of DeBuck is very much in copyright and fair use (the term for Mr. Fryer's suggestion) does not apply to this proposed use as we are not reviewing the work or citing it in a scholarly work [I'm a graphic designer by trade, so I have to know the latest on Copyright]. Rather than invite problems, we should either transcribe the piece and place it on the WEB or all purchase a copy [it is available in the US from Eisenbraun (http://www.eisenbrauns.com) or the Oriental Institute Suq (http://www-oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS) and I'm sure is available in the UK as well]. Egyptology publishers are few and far between, we should support them rather than take what is rightfully theirs. One man's opinion, Al Berens ARCE/Northern California Newsletter Editor ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 15:24:57 -0500 (EST) From: Suredesign@aol.com To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL pAnastasi I: Maher Checked A.J. Spaldinger's "Aspects of the Military Documents of the Ancient Egyptians", Yale UP, 1982 but he doesn't deal with the term either. He deals only with pAnastasi III & IV. Al Berens ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 13:30:43 -0500 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: cejo@midway.uchicago.edu (Charles E. Jones) Subject: AEL Teaching tools Alan Kirkland [et al.] wrote: >... There are few enough teaching >tools out there for this language... Back during the third week of the list (20 Feb 1997) I offered to compile a bibliography of books indended for use in the teaching of elementary Egyptian language. I've been working on it off and on and it now includes some forty-one titles. I estimate that this is roughly half of what of what exists in the published (and semi-published) literature. I be happy to send (by e-mail) the list to anyone who's interested. Recognize that this is a work in progress, that it is unedited and incomplete. Recognize also that it is not a bibliography of everything one might use in teaching elementary egyptian, rather it is a bibliography of works written specifically for that purpose. I'll happily accept corrections, additions, suggestions. -Chuck Jones- cejo@midway.uchicago.edu ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 4 Apr 1997 22:19:30 -0500 (EST) From: EHAshment@aol.com To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL pAnastasi I On 4 April 1997, Gerald E. Kadish wrote: > As for Stephen's comment on inn. It is true that the 1st person pl. >independent pronoun can be written that way (it normally has the small jar >in it, but that's hardly decisive), but the word for `if' is clearly >attested in this writing (cf. Lesko, Dictionary of Late Egyptian, I, 38, >bottom). >I find the Erman translation somewhat >opaque at this juncture too. For what it is worth, referring to Pap. Anastasi I 18.4 as an example, Erman thought that inn, while it occurs as the 1st pl. absolute pronoun, 'also occurs as an interjection and indeed in certain places as an exclamation of censure or doubt' (Adolf Erman, _Neuaegyptische Grammatik_, 2d ed. [Hildesheim: Georg Olms Verlagsbuchhandlung, (1933) 1968], section 688). >Having something like the Cerny-Groll, A Late Egyptian Grammar would provide you >access to the Late Egyptian forms and usages. I certainly second that. As they were published, I bought the first (1975) and second (1978) editions (at no small expense), but never got around to getting the third (described in AEB 1984, 84.0236); I guess I was waiting to see if any more were in the offing. Since both authors now are in Rosetau, it may be safe to purchase the third edition -- if it is still in print.... At any rate, in their chapter on conditional clauses, Cerny-Groll cite an example of '_inn_ ["if"] with the _wn_ or _mn_ of existence' (section 62.5.5): 'xr inn mn iH imi ini.tw pA-Ht Hna pA-wt, And if there is no ox, let the bed and the coffin be returned.' Edward H. Ashment (Ed) EHAshment@aol.com ============================================================================== From: "M. A. R. Barker" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Re: Another note on Subject-Verb formations Date: Sun, 6 Apr 97 16:06:57 -0500 Dear Colleagues, If you can stand one more posting, I would like to provide a reference to an article that deals with the sybject of SV(O) utterances. Eric Doret, "A Note on the Egyptian Construction Noun + sDm.f," Journal of Near Eastern Studies, University of Chicago Press, volume 39, no. 1, January, 1980, pp. 37-45. [I have used a capital "D" for the Journal's underlined "d," but I have followed its transcription by putting a period into "sDm.f."] Doret comes to the conclusion that, "In this article I have tried to show that the circumstantial form of the sDm.f follows the Noun in the construction Noun + sDm.f. This fact confirms Westendorf's theory that Noun + sDm.f is a 'pseudo- verbal' construction made up of a Noun + Adverbial. i.e. circumstantial sDm.f. It is impossible to consider Noun + sDm.f as a vehicle for the indiciative sDm.f and as one of the few syntactical positions where this form remained in use after the Old Kingdom. Middle Egyptian texts do show, however, examples of this construction using the prospective form of the sDm.f. With this in mind, therefore, we can distinguish two constructions: a 'pseudo-verbal' construction in which the Noun, emphasised or not, constitutes a unity with an adverbial, i.e. circumstantial sDm.f, and a loose construction in which the extraposed Noun is the emphasised subject of the prospective verb form." (pp. 44-45). Doret cites further articles by Westendorf and Junge on this topic, to which I have no access. Winfried Barta also lists and quantifies this construction in his "Komparative Untersuchungen zu vier Unterweltsbuechern," Muenchner Aegyptologische Untersuchungen 1, Muenchner Universitaetssschriften, Peter Land, Frankfurt am Main, Bern, New York, Paris, 1990, pp. 132 ff. Regards, Phil Barker ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 6 Apr 1997 17:15:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Papyrus Westcar Progress Report Hello, A couple of us are putting together a new typesetting of the story. Therefore, no copyright problems should interfere. Meanwhile, do we want to discuss any of it in transliteration, or would it be better to wait til the text is up on a web page? Geoffrey Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 06 Apr 1997 17:22:30 -0500 From: Saida To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL pAnastasi I EHAshment@aol.com wrote: > > On 4 April 1997, Stephen Fryer wrote: > > >The only translation I have of the passage under discussion is Erman's: > > > > Thy letter aboundeth in thrusts, and is loaded with great words. > >Behold, they shall reward thee, even as thou look for a load, and shall lay > >more on thee than thou wouldst. > > "I am a scribe, a mahir," thou sayest again. There is truth in thy > >words, say we. Come forth that thou mayest be tested. > > > >In spite of the rather archaic English used, he seems to get right into the > >spirit of things. > > Here are a couple additional translations into English. > > Gardiner, on page 20* of his study of Pap. Anastasi I (his hieroglyphic > transcription is on page 60, 18.4), translated the passage this way: > > Thy letter abounds in pointed speeches(?), is overloaded with big > words. Behold they [the big words] will(?) reward thee with that which > they demand(??); thou has piled up (words) at thy good pleasure. "I am a > scribe, a Maher", thou dost retort. (If) there is truth in what thou > saysest, say I, come forth that thou mayest be tested. > > In a footnote, Gardiner proposes that his second sentence may mean, 'thou > has piled up big words in a reckless manner, and must now accept from me > the retort which they seem themselves to ask for.' > > Gardiner, Alan H. [1911] 1964. _Egyptian Hieratic Texts_. Series I: > Literary Texts of the New Kingdom. Part I: The Papyrus Anastisi I and > the Papyrus Koller, Together with the Parallel Texts. Reprint, > Hildesheim: Georg Olms Verlagsbuchhandlung. > > Here is Wilson's translation of the same passage: > > Thy letter abounds in _cutting speeches_, is loaded with big words. > See, thou art rewarded with that which was sought -- a greater load for > thee than thou has wished. "I am a scribe, a _mahir_!" thou sayest > again. If there be truth in what thou sayest, come out that thou mayest > be tested! (476f.) > > Wilson, John A. 1969. An Egyptian Letter. In _Ancient Near Eastern > Texts Relating to the Old Testament_, edited by James B. Pritchard. 3d > ed. Princeton: Princeton University Press. What the heck--how about one more? "Your letter abounds with sarcasm, laden with grandiose speeches. You see--you shall be accorded (exactly) what such things invite (for) you have (been) pleased to bring it down upon yourself. "I am a scribe, an officer," so you were wont to say. If there be truth in what you have said, (then) submit yourself to the test." Of course it's easier when the road has been smoothed before. Marianne Luban ==============================================================================