Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 00:03:00 -0500 From: Maurice Taraschi To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Egyptology/Hieroglyph Courses Ed Burrucker wrote: > I am a few miles south of Baltimore and am willing to do some > driving to get into a developed course. Yes, I have Gardiner, Zauzich, > Wilkinson, Mercer and even Budge, but I would enjoy a regimen more > disciplined than my making the same errors for a few hours a day. > > If you have suggestions (institutions or sites are fine...I can > research from there), I would welcome them greatly! > Johns Hopkins in Baltimore has an excellent program, or, when I lived in Baltimore, did. ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 01:06:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Geoffrey Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Influences on Egyptian Language Dear Elizabeth, > How did the rule of Akhenaten and the rule of the Greeks and Romans, > effect the Ancient Egyptian Language. These are actually very interesting but largely unrelated questions. During the reign of Akhenaten Late Egyptianisms began to creep into monumental inscriptions at a much faster rate than previously, and this feature continued in the Ramesside Period. Up through most of the eighteenth dynasty most monumental inscriptions attempted to employ more or less pure Middle Egyptian, sometimes less successfully than others. However, during the reign of Akhenaten and thereafter, this rule was much less rigidly adhered to. Inscriptions began to regularly include the definite articles p3-, t3-, and n3-, and the grammar often reflected language a little closer to the then present-day speech. In essence, not only did Amarna Period art begin to loosen up and break somewhat free from the traditional confines of Egyptian tradition (certainly not entirely so), but the language of public art and religion also broke somewhat free and became less rigid and antiquated as well. It did not really become "full-blown" Late Egyptian, but it ceased to pretend to be "pure" Middle Egyptian. The Macedonians, the Ptolemaic Dynasty, and the Roman Empire saw some changes in the Egyptian language too. Although Egyptians during these periods spoke what we now call "demotic Egyptian", they continued to employ a form of Middle Egyptian for monmental and religions purposes. It is often called "egyptien de tradition". It is a kind of Middle Egyptian with varying degrees of influence from later stages of the language in its orthography and some of its grammar. The divergence between the spoken language and the written language eventually had become great enough during the Late Period that Psamtik I instituted a new official writing system which better reflected the speech of the day and which was derived from the hieratic script. However, many of the signs were in such a shorthand, and many of the spellings were so simplified that this writing was actually a revolutionary jump from hieratic which had closely followed the orthography of hieroglyphic writing. This was the beginning of demotic. Signsno longerhad any one-for-one correspondence with hieroglyphs, so the average literate person did not neceessarily ever learn the hieroglyphic script anymore, and by the time of the Graeco-Roman Period, only specialists could read or write in it at all. Demotic had been an official language, most likely the Late Period's Lower Egyptian, and more specifically Saite dialect. This writing system and perhaps as the spoken courtly language quickly took over all over the country for secular purposes and even sometimes for private religious purposes. Demotic itself continued to evolve, and was in use throughout the Greaco-Roman Period. However, it never entirely supplanted the hieratic and hieroglyphic scripts which continued in use among specialized circles of scholars for monuments and for many traditional religious venues. The Ptolemaic hieroglyphic system of writing was actually a dying art practiced only by a learned few, most of whom may have been priests. These hieroglyphs always represented egyptien de tradition, but often with several phonological changes which had taken place during the transition to demotic. However, the number of signs increased dramatically, because hieroglyphs were no longer purely a functional medium of expression so much as an art form for displaying one's esoteric knowledge. Many clever writings were developed which seemingly masked meanings behind word plays and ideographic devices. This type of writing is sometimes called "cryptography". Some of it was clearly cryptographic and intended to hide meanings from lay persons who were not initiated into this form of communication, but others were not really so much cryptographic as they were artful in their use of variant signs which could fill spaces in compact ways. For instance, because the word for "flesh" was at the time pronounced something like "af", the flesh sign was often employed for the sound /f/ instead of the horned viper, because it could fit into a much smaller space than the other sign. Several of the alphabetic signs had smaller variants and/or tall or flat variants so that the masons could carve much more compact groups of signs. More examples of variants of the uniliterals: sound variant j sprig of plants y two strokes or two sprigs of plants ` cup w coil or lassoe b cup with flame in it or jabiru bird or both p lips spitting out liquid f piece of flesh m upright version of the bakers' hook n nu-pot r lips in profile k afnet headdress The more cryptographic kinds of writings involved things like putting the red crown onto the head of a flying pintail duck to make the word pn "this" since the pintail duck stood in syllabic orthography for the sound /p/ and the red crown for the sound /n/, but signs were not usually joined together in quite this way, so it took an experienced reader to figure it out. Another example of cryptography might be the use of a monkey with upraised arms to represent nfr "good/beautiful" since the monkey was in the act of adoration of beauty. The name of the god Ptah who was regarded as the architect of the heavens was cleverly written with the signs for heaven and earth with a god holding up the heaven sign from the earth sign. Not only did this graphically represent the mythical actions of the god Ptah, but it could also spell this god's name since heaven was then pronounced something like "pe", earth like "to", and the god with upraised arms in that fashion was "HuH", so that you get p-t-H with acrophony. It was this type of writing which the Egyptian priests had described to Horapollo and caused him to confuse future generations for so many centuries when people were attempting to decipher the hieroglyphic script. people believed him and hence did not look for anything phonological, expecting all signs to be ideographic and filled with "mystical meanings", a fantasy which has bedazzled people from the Graeco-Roman Period all the way down to the "New Age" today. Some grammatical changes also occured in the egyptien de tradition of the Graeco-Roman Period. For instance in good Middle Egyptian one did not conjugate imperatives of verbs. Thus "come!" was expressed by mj whether the speaker was addressing a single male person, a single female person, or a plurality of personages. In Ptolemaic Egyptian, however, these imperatives are conjugated through the second person genders and numbers so that you get mj=k, mj=t, and mj=tn. Small influences also creeped in increasingly from demotic. Lastly, while loan words seem to have come in from Aramaic and other languages, if there are any Greek or Latin words which came into Egyptian during this time they do not seem to have been written down very often. It was not really until the Byzantine Period that the Coptic stage of Egyptian shows massive borrowing of Greek and a few Latin words. We know for a fact that many Egyptians and Graeco-Egyptians of the Ptolemaic and Roman Periods were in fact bilingual, employing both Demotic Egyptian and Greek, and some later also Latin. However, there does not seem to have been much mixing of the languages in writing. There surely must have been people who in fact did mix these languages in everyday speech since they seem to have operated in more than one language depending upon the venue, and many families were indeed mixed Graeco-Egyptian especially before the Roman period at which time a terrible set of classist laws (the gnomon) were laid down dictating that Greeks had more rights than Egyptians and thus people began increasingly to emulate Greek culture in every possible way trying not to appear to be overly Egyptian. More than likely it was this social restucturing by the Romans which actually caused so much Greek loanwords to come into the Egyptian language, ...that and the adoption of Christianity. Anyway, I am not sure if this entirely answers your question, but it is the best I can do off the top of my head late at night. Yours, Geoff Graham **************************************************************************** Geoffrey Graham, M.Phil, Egyptology, Yale University http://pantheon.yale.edu/~sokar/index.html ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Weni Line 29 Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 22:01:56 PDT Mark wrote >L29 >Dd.ti wn.ti btk.w n-xt-m xAs.t.i.w ipn >told that there were rebels amongst these foreigners >m Sr.t tp niA.w >at the 'Nose-of-Gazelle's-Head' Dd.ti, could it be old perfective - 'It was said' If it were passive wouldnt it be Dd.n.tw? This is how I wrote it: Dd.ti wn.t btk.w n-xt-m xAs.tyw pn It was said that there were rebels amongst these foreigners m Sr.t tp-gHs at Nose-of-Gazelle's-Head. But then I wondered about n-xt-m, not being able to find a reference to it. Could it perhaps be nxt m, (though lacking a determinative) it would then read as: It was said that there were strong rebels in the foreigners at Nose-of-Gazelle's-Head. In Gardiners sign list, niA is an ibex with longer curved horns. The shorter horned gazelle is gHs. m Htp, Jenny Carrington ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================== From: beaumont@kodak.com To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 09:20:58 -0400 Subject: AEL Breaking The Hieroglyphic Code From: E Beaumont I have just finished the book "Breaking The Maya Code" by Michael Coe. The author did a very good job of showing how the Maya glyphs where finally decoded. I was wondering if a similar book has been published that outlines the chronology of decoding of Egyptain glyphs, I believe starting with Champollion. I'm sure that there where many attempts before that, with little or no success. I have been having fun with trying to decipher Mayan and Egyptain glyphs in my spare time. Are there any documents that transcribe Egyptain writings literally and not with the authors interpretations? ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 10:22:16 -0400 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Gerald Kadish Subject: Re: AEL Meter and Stress in Weni Geoff: I am much relieved by your response. Send me your mailing address, and i will send you a copy of Foster's brief monograph. As the head of the SSEA Publications Committee at the time, I came by a couple of extra copies. I would be happy to send you one to have and to hold, as they say. I have to spend the rest of the day scribbling, but i will see if i have any response to your clarifiaction of what you were trying to do. Be patient; it will be a busy week for me; i leave for a week on Cape Cod next Monday. -- Gerry Gerald E. Kadish Professor of History and Near Eastern Studies Department of History Binghamton University Binghamton, NY 13902-6000 (607) 777-2488 e-mail address: kadishg@binghamton.edu ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 11:54:38 -0400 From: Herbert Burgauer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Amarna Letters In the latest volume of the American Journal of Archaeology, 102, No.3, there is a book-review of page 644 concerning "The Amarna Age : Western Asia" by Frederick J. Giles. It is issued by Aries and Phillip, Warminster, 1997, and is the first of two books on the Amarna period. Bidkar@aol.com wrote: > Rainey, Anson F. Canaanite in the Amarna Tablets: A Linguistic Analysis of > the Mixed Dialect Used by the Scribes from Canaan. 4 Volumes. Leiden; E.J. > Brill, 1996. > > The first volume is devoted to orthography, phonology, pronouns, nouns, > nominal constructions (especially morphological and syntactical > considerations) and numerals, and contains a general introduction to the four > volume work. The second volume is probably to be regarded as the most > essential, being a study of the verbal system. The Canaanite verbal system > "attested" underneath the Akkadian of the Amarna letters is an exceedingly > wily study, and the citations provided for evidence are extensive and helpful. > The third volume is an analysis of particles and adverbs in the Amarna corpus. > The buzzword in these three volumes seems to be morphosyntax, which simply, if > not quite precisely, seems to mean Rainey is going to show the reader the form > of the noun or verb or particle and discuss the ways that form is used. The > last volume is a reference volume and also of great importance. It lists > every word cited in the work and also contains an index recording every > reference made to an Amarna passage and where it may be consulted in Rainey=92s > CAT. > > Daniel Oden > Philadelphia, PA USA > > << There is also a three-volume study of the Amarna letters > recently published by Anson Rainey. It was published by Brill in Leiden, > I believe in 1997. >> > There is also Anson Rainey's El Amarna Tablets 359-379, AOAT 8, which was > published in 1978 and was a supplement to Knudtzon's two volumes. > > Jay Bisno > Culver City ============================================================================== From: "Chad Bochan" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 10:19:31 +1000 Subject: Re: AEL Breaking The Hieroglyphic Code E Beaumont wrote: > I have just finished the book "Breaking The Maya Code" by Michael Coe. The > author did a very good job of showing how the Maya glyphs where finally > decoded. I was wondering if a similar book has been published that outlines > the chronology of decoding of Egyptain glyphs, I believe starting with > Champollion. There is a very good and interesting account of the decoding of the Egyptian hieroglyphs (at least the early stages) in CW Ceram, 'Gods, Graves and Scholars', a very famous book on the history of archaeology. It shows among other things how insanely dedicated Champollion was to cracking the glyphs before anyone else when he was only a teenager. Chad. :) ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 03:39:21 +1000 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Weni Line 29 Jenny wrote: >Dd.ti, could it be old perfective - 'It was said' >If it were passive wouldnt it be Dd.n.tw? Good point! If it were the past tense sDm.tw=f then it should have the past tense marker (sDm.n.tw=f). I thought about the stative/old perfective but felt this was unlikely. It is used here to begin a sentence but without the preceding subject. I thought such a usage was restricted to first person constructions or with certain standard greetings and epithets. You also have the use of the .ti ending which is feminine. Why pick the feminine suffix? Loprieno (Ancient Egyptian, p83) describes an early egyptian verb form he calls the 'perfective passive sDm.t=f', but this is only found in non-initial position. In the present example we would have to propose something like: "His majesty praised me .... when it was said that there were rebels...." Can someone comment on this please. >m Sr.t tp-gHs >at Nose-of-Gazelle's-Head. > In Gardiners sign list, niA is an ibex with longer curved horns. The > shorter horned gazelle is gHs. I think there is quite a lot of discussion in the literature about the type of animal depicted in this place name, as well as the place itself. >But then I wondered about n-xt-m, not being able to find a reference to >it. Could it perhaps be nxt m, (though lacking a determinative) it would This is frustrating. I couldn't find n-xt-m either. Your suggestion, nxt m, is a possibility, although 'stong' doesn't seem to me to be the right kind of word here. I have been looking around to see if there was a possibility of n-xtm, but haven't found anything. Regards, Mike D-S ******************************** Mike Dyall-Smith, Melbourne, Australia m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au ******************************** ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 19:52:56 +0100 From: Geoff Ponton To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Breaking The Hieroglyphic Code There is a good account of decoding hieroglyphs in Erik Iversen's The Myth of Egypt and Its Hieroglyphs in European Tradition (Princeton University Press 1961, pb edition with new preface 1993. ISBN 0-691-02124-4) It's also good on how the understanding of hieroglyphs was lost. Geoff -- ------------------------------------- -- danny33@danny33.demon.co.uk A true scientific vision: austere, tragic, alienated and supremely beautiful. A world that isn't for anything; a world that is just there. - Jerry Fodor ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 08:36:45 +1000 To: Ancient Egyptian Language From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Weni web site Dear Weni-philes, you have probably noticed the weni commentary has not been updated recently. I have the files ready but the CCER is undergoing behind-the-scenes hardware upgrades and this has meant I have been unable to upload my files. The problem should be resolved soon. Regards, Mike D-S ******************************** Mike Dyall-Smith, Melbourne, Australia m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au ******************************** ============================================================================== From: Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 23:18:55 EDT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Egyptology/Hieroglyph Courses Dear Ed Maybe you should look into Brown University, I am informed that they have a great college of Egyptology. ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 21:34:34 +1000 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Weni Line 29 While we are still on line 29, where is 'btk', rebel, in the dictionaries? I can't see it if Faulkner or in Hannig. Under 'rebel', Shennum has: btnw, xn, bSt, sbi. How solid is the definition of this word? Regards, Mike D-S ************************************* Mike Dyall-Smith, Ph.D. Department of Microbiology and Immunology, University of Melbourne, 3052 Australia Tel: +(613) 9344-5693 Fax: +(613) 9347-1540 e-m: m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au web: www.microbiol.unimelb.edu.au/mds/ ************************************* ============================================================================== From: "radioterapia" To: Subject: AEL About Osiris legend Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 13:50:39 +0200 I would like to know which was the role of the four sons of Horus in the search of the parts of Osiris' body after it was destroyed by Seth. I found several versions of the legend. Which is the most accepted? Thanks Piero ============================================================================== From: Michael Tilgner To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: AW: AEL Breaking The Hieroglyphic Code Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 20:14:55 +0200 E Beaumont wrote: > I was wondering if a similar book has been published that outlines > the chronology of decoding of Egyptain glyphs, I believe starting with > Champollion. I'm sure that there where many attempts before that, with > little or no success. There are several accounts on the decipherment of the hieroglyphs: Ernst Doblhofer, Voices in Stone. The Decipherment of ancient scripts and writing, Viking, New York, 1961 Chapter II; written in a fascinating style Maurice Pope, The Story of Decipherment. From Egyptian hieroglyphic to Linear B, Thames and Hudson, London, 1975 Part I about the hieroglyphs: from the Renaissance and the 18th century to Champollion; more scholarly Carol Andrews, The Rosetta Stone, British Museum Publications, London, 1985 These books are available at low cost at http://www.mxbf.com In 1990 there were two anniversaries: 200 years of Champollion's birth, 180 years of Lepsius's birth. In an exhibition devoted to the early days of the decipherment many new details were discovered and displayed. There were described in an excellent catalogue: Catalogue de l'exposition "M=E9moires d'Egypte". Hommage de l'Europe =E0 Champollion. Realis=E9e pour la bicentenaire de la naissance de Jean-Franc,ois Champollion, 1790-1932, Strasbourg, 1990 [there was also a German edition under the title "Pharaonen-Daemmerung. Wiedergeburt des alten Aegypten", Strassburg, 1990] with numerous illustrations, many in color. I don't know whether there is an English edition. Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@baan.nl ============================================================================== From: Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 10:03:40 EDT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Breaking The Hieroglyphic Code Budge's The Mummy: Funereal Rite and Customs in Ancient Egypt has a long detailed section on the historical evolution of hieroglypic decipherment from classical authors misinterpretations to the later breakthroughs of Smith, Akerblad, and, of course, Champollion--including long exerpts of their writings on the suject and letters exchanged as to who did what first. Reading the Past: Ancient Writing from Cuneiform to the Alphabet, Barnes and Noble Books, is a compendium of shorter full works by various authors on how writing evolved, including a classic, Egyptian Hieroglyphics, by W.V.Davies, and other works on Cunnieform, Linear B, Greek, Etruscan, showing how these languages were all translated. Hope this is a help Craig Masten, Boston ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 22:38:30 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL Weni Line 29 Hi, Mike, > While we are still on line 29, where is 'btk', rebel, in the dictionaries? > I can't see it if Faulkner or in Hannig. Under 'rebel', Shennum has: btnw, > xn, bSt, sbi. How solid is the definition of this word? > Regards, Mike D-S The Beinlich word list has: btk & Aufr^uhrer !! Wb I S. 485 Which means "rebel" or "trouble maker". Regards, -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/index.html ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 00:37:38 +0300 From: ofer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Isis VS Ra i've heard here and there about the story of Isis inforcing Ra to tell her the only secret she doesn't know- his real name. but it is never mentioned where (papyrus or site or something) was this story taken from, and where can I find it's hieroglyphic transcription (whith transliteration and translation, if possible) anyway, if such a thing exists, can it be found on the net? thanx ahead ofer waldman ============================================================================== From: "Mark Vygus" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Weni Line 29 Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 20:33:33 +0100 Concerning btk.w rebels . I must admit to commiting the most horrible crime.......I looked in Budges Dictionary !!! Page 227a betek just over half way down the page. Please forgive me :-) Mark nsw-bit@msn.com ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 06:11:15 +1000 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Weni site update I am now able to update the weni pages (at the CCER site) and have just added more to the commentary (although not quite up to date with the current debate on line 29!). Any glitches, omissions, errors or comments, please let me know directly. Regards, Mike D-S ************************************* Mike Dyall-Smith, Ph.D. Department of Microbiology and Immunology, University of Melbourne, 3052 Australia Tel: +(613) 9344-5693 Fax: +(613) 9347-1540 e-m: m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au web: www.microbiol.unimelb.edu.au/mds/ ************************************* ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 00:27:18 +0300 From: ofer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Learning Rohan Fenwick wrote: > > Elizabeth, > > I haven't read the book myself, but the ideal choice would be Alan > Gardiner's book. I'm not sure of the title, here it is just referred to > as "Gardiner text", but it is apparently a very good book. Gardiner's > book is available from www.amazon.com for $69.95 US. in addition to what othe rpeople wrote about gardiner's "egyptian grammar" (today I think there is already edition 4 from 1997, I, anyway, have the 3rd edition, from 1994). as far as I know, this is the most common book for learning hieroglyphs, although some of the theories there are not updated and the excercises doesn't have solutions. I'm reading it these days, and it seems to be quite good. I've heard that hoch's book is starting to spread among AE students, but to this time, gardiner is the most common. it is also recommended to get Faulkner's "concise dictionary for middle egyptian", which seems to be the best middle AE dictionary in english and that's it, hope it helped ofer waldman ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 18:46:05 -0400 From: James Lyman To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Isis VS Ra Although in many ways Budge is unreliable. The story in question (glyphs, transliteration and translation) can be found in =ABGods of the Egyptians= =BB, Vol I, Dover 1969. See previous posts regarding Budge's general accuracy. The good thing is that he provides the hieroglyphic texts. Jim ============================================================================== From: tomw@tundra.com To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 19:34:36 -0400 Subject: Re: AEL Weni Line 29 I've just got into egyptian hieroglyphic transliteration as a hobby over the last 3 months or so, so I'm a real neophyte. I find it fascinating and am thankful for this great mailing list. Up to now, I've been using Budge's dictionary as a resource. However, I gather from the email below that Budge may not be the best choice. Can I ask what the accepted resource is and what the issues are with Budge's volumes? thanks Tom Wilson. ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Weni Line 29 Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 23:58:28 PDT A few more thoughts: >Dd.ti, could it be old perfective - 'It was said' Since this is an Old Kingdom text and in the early Egyptian language the old perfective was used more freely as a narrative tense, it may not yet have required the preceeding subject. Regarding the feminine ending, if 'it' refers to the words that are spoken, then this matter/speech that he is told about is mdt - a feminine word. (I am probably off the track here, just exploring possibilities.) nxt m, You are right Mike, 'strong' does seem a bit odd, but it would be more impressive for him to defeat a strong enemy than a weak one. I also used Budge for btk.w - rebels. If I can't find a word in Gardiner or Faulkner, I can usually find it in Budge's dictionary. m Htp, Jenny Carrington. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 04:02:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Geoffrey Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Isis VS Ra Dear Mr Waldman, > i've heard here and there about the story of Isis inforcing Ra to tell > her the only secret she doesn't know- his real name. but it is never > mentioned where (papyrus or site or something) was this story taken > from, and where can I find it's hieroglyphic transcription (whith > transliteration and translation, if possible) The story of Isis and Re is a rather unusual one. If I am remembering correctly it was on a stela designed for magical cures of snakebites. Because of this apparently private venue and a lack of references to the same story in any other sources, some people have questioned whether its mythical content can or should be considered a standard part of Egyptian religion. Such people (now I am wishing I could remember where I was reading about the distinction!) feel that this story is simply a "historiola", a tale created ad hoc for a particular magical purpose as a spell composed by a particular person. At any rate, whether the tale of Isis and Re were a myth (meaning that it were accepted by a significant segment of the population) or a historiola (something of a more private nature, and not known to any significant segment of the population), it's general character was at least possible in Egyptian thought. As for hieroglyphic transcriptions, I have only seen one by Budge in his monograph on Egyptian religion. After some searching I could probably find out where this object was published but I don't have Budge's book anywhere handy. Someone might have a look to see whether he footnotes the object from which he takes his transcription. This is one problem with Budge. You can count on him to offer lots of various tidbits but you can't count on him to tell you where he is getting his information or to give you a footnote which might lead you on to further paths of research. However, since he has gone to the trouble of transcribing this text, one would think he would tell the reader whence he got it. I only know that this text came from a magical stela because some book I have read, perhaps several years ago, refered to this story and discussed whether or not it can be regarded as a myth, but I can't for the life of me at this moment remember whos book that was... I can at least say that the book had a much broader subject than just this one text... it was probably on Egptian myths or Egyptian religion generally. My problem right now is that I am crippled by being away for the summer from my own books and notes so I can't just have a look for somthing like this myself before answering an e-mail. However, since I was at least partially familiar with the answer to your question, I figured that partial information is at least better than no response at all. Yours, Geoff sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu **************************************************************************** Geoffrey Graham, M.Phil, Egyptology, Yale University http://pantheon.yale.edu/~sokar/index.html ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:57:06 -0400 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Gerald Kadish Subject: Re: AEL Weni Line 29 Mark: Wb. I, 485 has btk and defines it as "Aufr=FChrer" or the like, and speculates that it may refer to nomads marauding in Egyptian territory. Its only sources are Weni, l. 29 (=3DUrk. I, 104:12) and the second occurrence at Weni, l. 32 (=3DUrk. I, 105:4). -- Gerry Gerald E. Kadish Professor of History and Near Eastern Studies Department of History Binghamton University Binghamton, NY 13902-6000 (607) 777-2488 e-mail address: kadishg@binghamton.edu ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 04:59:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Geoffrey Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL About Osiris legend Dear Piero, > I would like to know which was the role of the four sons of Horus in the > search of the parts of Osiris' body after it was destroyed by Seth. Right off hand, my first answer would be that these deities would only have been worked into this legend as an afterthought since the "Four Sons of Horus" may actually be more ancient deities than Osiris himself, perhaps representing the four pillars of heaven, the four cardinal points of the universe. However, I am not entirely certain about it. As far as I know they originally show up in the Pyramid Texts and were not at first considered "sons of Horus", but merely the "four curly-locked youths of the horizons". Even Horus himself is quite certainly attested earlier than Osiris and the Osirian mythical saga. He is present right from the beginning of Egyptian history in the names of the late Predynastic kings, while the first confirmed attestation of "Osiris" dates to the Fifth Dynasty, well after the height of the old Kingdom. There is the problem that Osiris might be extremely ancient even though he is not attested before this, or, on the other hand, he could have been a newly constructed theological concept to which elements from older religion were added in support. By the time that the Pyramid Texts were composed Osiris seems to be an established and extremely important deity. It is unknown exactly whence he came and how he rose to such prominence. Some people feel that he was a specifically Helipolitan deity who came to prominence due to the putative Helioplitan origin of the Fifth Dynasty at which time he supplanted the older figures of Ptah and Sokar who were the principal mortuary deities of the Memphite dynasties which preceeded Dynasty Five. There are others who have argued that he was a very ancient god from Abydos, Busiris, and various other regions of Egypt. All that can be said is that his appearance on the scene is just late enough to make us uncomfortable with projecting him back in to the further reaches of Egyptian antiquity. Of the various deities who accompany him in the saga, some can definitely be considered ancient (Horus is one of these), but others seem to appear for the first time right when Osiris does (Isis and Nephthys are good examples). It is often difficult to say which deities were more ancient and which appeared for the first time in the Osiris saga with the Pyramid Texts. You might try looking them up in the Lexikon der Aegyptologie. Perhaps an article there might lead you to the earliest attestations of these deities and explain the context of that appearance. Now, as for their role (finally getting to the point here ;-P), I believe that they had no role until after Osiris' death at which time they acted as guardians of his body for the four corners of the earth and participated in his mummification. Many New Kingdom and later images of these deities show them holding mummy bandages in front of them, as if they are presenting them to Osiris or the Osirianized deceased. They also are typically positioned under the funerary bier or around the sarcophagus. In some scenes of the Osiris Bed they make various symbolic gestures with their hands and feet, perhaps the motions of mourning or, conversely, celebration. Some of these gestures were certainly part of the Henu-ritual about which little is known (a dissertation on the subject is in progress here at Yale by Mark Stone). Most often, however, these figures take on the form of small mummies or the canopic vases which were intended to hold the internal organs which had to be removed during the embalming process. Each of the four was assigned a different organ which he guarded. All of this seems rather un-exciting as far as "story-line", but in many respects it is quite in character with the bulk of Egyptian mythology, which according to Bleeker is based more on cults than on myth. What I mean to say is that first the cult of a deity developed with its own rituals and then a myth was later created to explain how the deity fitted into the scheme of the larger national religion. Perhaps these four gods were mortuary deities which were absorbed by the Osiris cult later and they were given small but important roles as a way of keeping their cults alive and functioning, bringing more ancient revered magic into the cult of a younger but at that time more influential god. I found > several versions of the legend. Which is the most accepted? For Egyptian myths, and particularly the Osiris Saga we are dependent on mortuary spells. We can only reconstruct the story of Osiris from references to different episodes contained in texts which were designed for the awakening of the dead and their transport to the next world. What this means is that we get frustratingly succinct snippets of story which do not let us into the full nuances. It is like trying to understand the life of Jesus by reading Latin masses from the Middle Ages. What we would be lacking is the gospels which tell the whole story as it was known to every partipant in those traditional liturgies. The Pyramid Texts, the Coffin Texts, the Amduat, the Book of Gates, Book of the Dead, and several other significant texts all refer to Osiris and his various helpers and detractors, but not a single one of them presents the story in toto. Any ancient Egyptian already knew that story and these compositions were written by Egyptians for Egyptians with a specific purpose in mind. Much of our knowledge of this story's plot is dependent on Graeco-Roman authors who wrote in Greek and Latin and viewed this story as something exotic and were attempting to syncretize the various deities with gods more familiar to themselves. The problem with these sources is that we have then to sort out what parts were originally Egyptian and what parts were Classical minunderstandings of re-interpretations designed for consumption in the Graeco-roman world. To get a good overview of what is known of this story and from which sources the information is drawn, I reommend that you read two books by J.G. Griffiths. One is on Osiris and the other is on Horus and Seth. I don't have the books handy and can't remember the precise titles at the moment, but I am sure that others may be able to step in and help you with this. I wish I could be of more help, but I am away for the summer and don't have all the resources I need to do so properly. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minera.cis.yale.edu **************************************************************************** Geoffrey Graham, M.Phil, Egyptology, Yale University http://pantheon.yale.edu/~sokar/index.html ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:22:44 -0400 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Gerald Kadish Subject: Re: AEL Isis VS Ra Ofer: Take a look at Pritchard, Ancient Near Eastern Texts, pp. 12-14 (trans. by J. A. Wilson. -- Gerry Gerald E. Kadish Professor of History and Near Eastern Studies Department of History Binghamton University Binghamton, NY 13902-6000 (607) 777-2488 e-mail address: kadishg@binghamton.edu ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:01:27 -0400 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Gerald Kadish Subject: Re: AEL Learning Just a brief caution on publication dates. The 3rd ed. of Gardiner's Egyptian Grammar was published in 1957; there have been no subsequent editions, only reprints (at an exhorbitant price; as long as Sir Alan's subsidy bequest lasted, it cost only $10.10). Gerald E. Kadish Professor of History and Near Eastern Studies Department of History Binghamton University Binghamton, NY 13902-6000 (607) 777-2488 e-mail address: kadishg@binghamton.edu ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:08:39 -0400 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Gerald Kadish Subject: Re: AEL Weni Line 29 Jenny: Just a suggestion on Weni, l. 29: Try Dd tw, with tw as the indefinite subject, i.e. "one said" , a way of characterizing a report or rumor or what have you. Just a thought. -- Gerry Gerald E. Kadish Professor of History and Near Eastern Studies Department of History Binghamton University Binghamton, NY 13902-6000 (607) 777-2488 e-mail address: kadishg@binghamton.edu ============================================================================== From: Michael Tilgner To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: AW: AEL Isis VS Ra Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 22:39:03 +0200 Ofer Waldman wrote: > i've heard here and there about the story of Isis inforcing Ra to tell > her the only secret she doesn't know- his real name. but it is never > mentioned where (papyrus or site or something) was this story taken > from, and where can I find it's hieroglyphic transcription (whith > transliteration and translation, if possible) Dear Ofer, this story - sometimes called "The Trick of Isis" - exists in two hieratic papyri, one in Turin (CGT 54052), one in the British Museum (Papyrus Chester Beatty XI = BM 10691), which were published by W. Pleyte/F. Rossi, Les papyrus de Turin, Leiden, 1869-1876, pl. 31, 77 A. H. Gardiner, Hieratic Papyri in the British Museum, Third Series, London, 1935, pp. 116-118, pls. 64-65 The problem of keeping one's name as a secret is discussed in "Lexikon der Aegyptologie", Vol. I, cols. 281-291, entry "Anomitaet (der Goetter)" [anonymity (of gods)]. English translation: J. B. Pritchard (ed.), Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament, Princeton, 1955, pp. 12 seq. Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@baan.nl ============================================================================== From: Michael Tilgner To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: AW: AEL Isis Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 19:55:05 +0200 Francesca wrote: > once again a question which came by reading Quirke's "Ancient Egyptian > Religion". On page 61, he mentions a story with Isis and seven scorpions. > Anyone knows where I could find the text ? Dear Francesca, in addition to other postings: The original text can be found on the Metternich stela. The edition to be consulted is: C. E. Sander-Hansen, Die Texte der Metternich-Stele, Analecta Aegyptiaca, Vol. 7, Copenhague, 1956 The "Lexikon der Aegyptologie", Vol. IV, cols. 122-124, entry "Metternichstele" comments: Two utterances are worked out like novellas on a high literary level. The story of the seven scorpions of Isis (line 48 seq.) uses the motif well-known in the world literature that a god looks for a shelter who is turned back by a rich woman but is welcomed by a poor one. The healing power of Isis is strengthened by her control of the scorpions which is certainly connected to her scorpion nature also mentioned in other contexts. (The other novellistic part is the story of the healing of the Horus child by Thoth.) There are only few scenes on this stela related to the text, among them XXXVII: the seven scorpions of Isis. The Metternich stela was produced in the time of Nektanebos II (360-342 BC). According to line 87-88 the text was found in the house of Osiris Mnevis and copied from an older text. Unfortunately I could not find any new English translation. Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@baan.nl ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AW: AEL Isis VS Ra Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:46:34 +-200 >i've heard here and there about the story of Isis inforcing Ra to tell her the only secret she doesn't know- his real name. but it is never mentioned where (papyrus or site or something) was this story taken from, and where can I find it's hieroglyphic transcription (whith transliteration and translation, if possible) ****The translation alone is in Brunner-Traut - "Altaegyptische Maerchen", 1963 She does not give references, alas. Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== From: Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:30:15 EDT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Weni Line 29 In a message dated 98-08-13 03:36:22 EDT, you write: << >Dd.ti, could it be old perfective - 'It was said' >> Hoch gives an example of fem. sing. prospective participle Dd.ti 'what might be said' Paragraph 121 3,b. The example comes from Ptahhotep, which some folks on the list have been saying has similarities to Weni. Is this another possibility? Matt ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 06:41:37 +0200 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Francesca Subject: Re: AW: AEL Isis At 07:55 PM 13/08/98 +0200, Michael Tilgner wrote: >C. E. Sander-Hansen, Die Texte der Metternich-Stele, Analecta Aegyptiaca, >Vol. 7, Copenhague, 1956 > >The "Lexikon der Aegyptologie", Vol. IV, cols. 122-124, entry >"Metternichstele" comments: <> >Unfortunately I could not find any new English translation. Oh well ... I guess I'll have to learn German then :) Thanks to everyone who responded about this question. Francesca ============================================================================== From: eyerex@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 13:52:24 -0600 (MDT) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AW: AEL Isis There is a German language translation program at http://www.snap.com I hope this will help. ============================================================================== From: Michael Tilgner To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: AW: AEL Isis Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 12:06:27 +0200 Michael Tilgner wrote: > Francesca wrote: > >> once again a question which came by reading Quirke's "Ancient Egyptian >> Religion". On page 61, he mentions a story with Isis and seven scorpions. >> Anyone knows where I could find the text ? > > Dear Francesca, > Unfortunately I could not find any new English translation. See: J. F. Borghouts, Ancient Egyptian Magical Texts, Leiden, 1978, Nr. 90 Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@baan.nl . ============================================================================== From: Michael Tilgner To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AW: Re: AEL About Osiris legend Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 00:20:47 +0200 Geoff Graham wrote: > Dear Piero, > >> I would like to know which was the role of the four sons of Horus in the >> search of the parts of Osiris' body after it was destroyed by Seth. > > As far as I > know they originally show up in the Pyramid Texts and were not at first > considered "sons of Horus", but merely the "four curly-locked youths of > the horizons". This description of Pyr. 1221 may indeed be the sons of Horus. In addition they are also cited explicitly (Pyr. 1548) with their activities (protecting - Pyr. 1333; expelling hunger and thirst - Pyr. 552; raising the King, wiping his tears away, splitting his mouth open - Pyr. 1983/84; causing the King to mount up as Khepre - Pyr. 2078/79; washing his face - Pyr. 601): Pyr. 1548: "... the contents of its udder [sic] belong to these four gods the children of Horus whom he loves Hapy, Imsety, Duamutef, Kebhsenuf." Pyr. 1333: "O you children of Horus, Hapy, Duamutef, Imsety, Kebhsenuf, spread the protection of life over your father Osiris the King ..." Pyr. 552: "... Hapy, Duamutef, Kebhsenuf, and Imsety will expel this hunger which is in my belly and this thirst which is on my lips." Pyr. 1983/84: "your children's children together have raised you up, (namely) Hapy, [Imsety], Duamutef, and Kebhsenuf, [whose] names you have [wholly] made. [Your face is washed,] your tears are wiped away, your mouth is split open with their iron fingers." Pyr. 2078/79: "These four gods, friends of the King, (namely) Imsety, Hapy, Duamutef, and Kebhsenuf, the children of Horus of Khem; they tie the rope-ladder for this King, they make firm the wooden ladder for this King, they cause the King to mount up to Khoprer when he comes into being in the eastern side of the sky." Pyr. 601: "... My face is washed by the gods, male and female; Imsety, Hapy, Duamutef, and Kebhsenuf are my right side ..." (All translations are by Faulkner) See also Pyr. 1338/39, 1823 Please note that not all children were male (Pyr. 601): In the beginning Imsety was female. Some additional information: Name - responsibility - direction imsti Imsety feminine dual - liver - South Hpi Hapy written in ancient times with two geese; probably dual Hp.wi "the two geese" - spleen - North dwA-mwt.f Duamutef "who praises his mother" - lungs - East qbH-snw.f Kebhsenuf "who refreshes his brothers" - intestins - West Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@baan.nl ==============================================================================