From: Shmakov Timofey To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Wepwawetaa Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 08:32:42 +0400 Daniel, The word in question is pAtjw "original ones, ancestors" (the sign after pA is tjw-{buzzard}-G4, the circle sign after pAtjw is {round bread loaf}-X6). The whole passage is: Dd.f jr jz pn jr.n.j m z(my)t nt tA Dsr m Hr jb jtjw qmA jf.j saHw nw hrw tpj nbw mnw m jsw jAt pAtjw SAa m jrt jdb Hqt Dr rk gbb jr.n.j st r s.mnx st m Hr jb spAt sgrt "He says: As to this tomb which I made in the desert of Restricted Land (i.e. of Necropolis) in the midst of ancestors (lit. fathers) who created my flesh, officials of the creation (lit. of the first day), lords set in old times, the office of ancestors (lit. those of the primeval time) beginning from making the bank of Heqet down to the time of Geb. I have made it to ennoble the place in the midst of the district of silence. " Best, -- Timofey Shmakov, Russian Federation Omsk State Agrarian University The Part-Time Department ============================================================================== From: "A.P. de Visser" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL Wepwawetaa Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 10:50:24 +0100 The round sign is X6 with the meaning so you get which means .I hope you may agree.Kind regards Bram de Visser ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 04:27:53 -0800 (PST) From: Orlando Mezzabotta Subject: Re: AEL Wepwawetaa To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Of course! I just wanted to point out the missing glyph, which I thought could be /x/. But sure it is X6. I should have checked the sentence. Timofey's explanation is very clear. Orlando ============================================================================== From: "Marianne Luban" Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 14:50:31 GMT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: Re: AEL Wepwawetaa The term "isw" toward the end of Line 3 refers to the former officials, as well. Hannig puts it as "the Old Ones of yesteryear", also "Alte Kameraden". Marianne Luban http://thetimetravelerreststop.blogspot.com/ ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 14:34:04 -0800 (PST) From: Orlando Mezzabotta Subject: AEL Ra-Atum or Atum-Ra? To: "AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk" Dear AEL members, in the southern wall of the sarcophagus chamber of the pyramid of Wnjs (in particular utterance 217) there are many instances of /ra tm/ (Ra-Atum). I am wondering whether /ra/ is placed in the first place as honorific transposition. So what should be pronounced first: Ra or Atum? Any idea? Scholars translate it as/Ra-Atum/, but commonly it's rendered as Atum-ra. That may be just a habit or a phonetic convenience, though. In both cases (in our texts), being= in the first place or because of honorific transposition, Ra seems to be the most important god, but is it really so? I'll investigate further, but any hint would be highly appreciated. Are there cuneiform renderings? That would help. Thank you all Orlando Mezzabotta ============================================================================== From: Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 15:37:57 +0100 Subject: Re: AEL Ra-Atum or Atum-Ra? To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Dear Orlando, I am of the opinion that Ra-Atum is better to pronounce. It makes no difference. It is up to you. Best regards - Daniel ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 08:32:46 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Alm Subject: Re: AEL Ra-Atum or Atum-Ra? To: Ancient Egyptian Language List I've more often seen it as Ra-Atum vs. Atum-Ra, so I'll venture this opinion, for what it's worth: at the time of Unas Ra was given the honorific anteposition because of the emphasis on the sun god. Likewise in the NK, when Amun was foremost, it was Amun-Ra. Brian Alm ============================================================================== From: "Timothy A. Jackson" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL Ra-Atum or Atum-Ra? Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 09:45:50 -0500 Sir: Do you have a link to a photo of the inscription that I may see? Best regards Timothy A. Jackson ============================================================================== From: "Timothy A. Jackson" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL Ra-Atum or Atum-Ra? Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 12:22:18 -0500 From most usage, the Name RA comes FIRST. Tutankhamen's Throne name was "RA changes ALL" ============================================================================== From: "Daniel L Selden" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL Ra-Atum or Atum-Ra? Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 10:25:43 -0800 RA-tm is attested in several places, but never tm-RA--so I think the only "correct" rendering would be Ra-Atum. See C. Leitz, Lexikon der aegyptischen Goetter und Goetterbezeichnungen, 7 vols. (Peeters). Daniel L. Selden Professor of Classics, World Literature, and Jewish Studies Chair, Senate Committee on Teaching University of California Santa Cruz, CA 95064 ============================================================================== From: Shmakov Timofey To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL AEL: New Book on the Pyramid Texts Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 13:28:02 +0400 Dear AEL subscribers, I'm happy to make available for downloading my (unpublished) work Timofey T. Shmakov CRITICAL ANALYSIS OF J. P. ALLEN'S "THE ANCIENT EGYPTIAN PYRAMID TEXTS" 2012 410 pages In it I take a closer look at a range of Pyramid Texts, making suggestions about their interpretation and their language, and comparing the novel readings to the standard edition of the PTs by James Allen. Those who have no direct interest in the PTs themselves may still find the Supplemental Notes (10 pages) thought-provoking, as they deal with names & epithets of gods, the value of certain hieroglyphs, and writing conventions. The file (PDF, 1.84 MB) may be downloaded at Those who have no ready access to the Academia site may find a copy at the EEF BBS: Please keep in mind it is in principle a working paper, which might be altered in certain sections based on (hopefully!) constructive feedback from EEF members. (It may also be noted that additions have already been made after the first editing, so please blame any remaining glitches on the author rather than the editor.) -- Timofey Shmakov, Russian Federation Omsk State Agrarian University The Part-Time Department ============================================================================== From: "Marianne Luban" Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 15:20:18 GMT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: RE: AEL Ra-Atum or Atum-Ra? ---------- Original Message ---------- From: "Timothy A. Jackson" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL Ra-Atum or Atum-Ra? Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 12:22:18 -0500 >From most usage, the Name RA comes FIRST. Tutankhamen's Throne name was "RA >changes ALL" = I don't think so. nb-xprw-ra means "Lord of the Incarnations of Ra", which refers to the sun in its various manifestations, including Atum. In this case, "nb" means "lord" and not "all". The basic meaning of "xpr" is "to happen". It is one of the more complex Egyptian words. A name I find most intriguing is that of someone at Akhetaten, whose name was "nfr-xprw-Hr- s-xpr". Presumably, the "nfr-xprw" element refers to Akhenaten, himself, usual prenomen being "nfr-xprw-ra"--but instead of "ra" there is "Hr s-xpr" which appears to mean "in the process of transforming". The question is--transforming into what? From Amenhotep to Akhenaten? That seems too simple. Marianne Luban http://thetimetravelerreststop.blogspot.com/ ============================================================================== To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: Re: AEL Ra-Atum or Atum-Ra? From: Vyvyan Pinches Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 10:48:52 -0500 (EST) Actually, Tutankhamun's prenomen was nb-xprw-ra "Lord of the forms of Ra"; the apparent inversion is honorific. ==============================================================================