From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 20:38:54 +0000 Subject: AEL Papyri on CDROM question. CC: Tim Williams Forwarded on behalf of Tim Williams to whom replies should be addressed... ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 15:59:41 +1000 From: Tim Williams To: Michael_Dyall-Smith@muwayf.unimelb.edu.au Dear Sir/ Madame, I am trying to buy a cd-rom with "high quality" images of "Egytian Wall Paintings" / reproductions and also examples of "Papyri" such as those found in the "Book of the Dead". If you can help please contact me. Thanks Tim! ----------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 15:25:56 +1000 From: Rohan Fenwick To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Hi all. I was just wondering, is there a copy of the Book of the Dead available on the Web? Rohan Fenwick z-fenwick.r@chac.qld.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 20:00:54 +0200 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Francesca Subject: AEL two questions Group, I am curently reading Stephen Quirke's "Ancient Egyptian Religion" and a couple of questions came to me as I started the first chapter. 1/ Quirke mentions that "the name of one king was once read by Egyptologists as Raneb, 'Ra is my lord', but may now be interpreted as Nebra, 'lord of the sun', on page 22. My question is : how do we know whether to read Nebra or Raneb ? Is the symbol for Ra before the sign for 'nb' ? 2/ Is there a copy somewhere of the "Book of the Adoration of Ra" which Quirke mentions on page 31 ? It is "a composition first attested in the burial chamber of Useramun, vizier of Hatshepsut, and then in the tombs of New Kingdom kings." Has it been published ? I hope someone will be able to help regarding those two questions. Thanks, Francesca ============================================================================== From: "John Aiello" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Re: Book Of the Dead Location Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:18:35 -0700 Here's one: http://members.aol.com/egyptart/book.html Sea-YA ---------- > From: Rohan Fenwick > To: Ancient Egyptian Language List > Subject: > Date: Tuesday, August 04, 1998 10:25 PM > > Hi all. I was just wondering, is there a copy of the Book of the Dead > available on the Web? > > Rohan Fenwick > z-fenwick.r@chac.qld.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 17:10:38 -0700 From: Jack Kilmon To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Re: The Papyrus of Ani can be found at: http://www.noxtempli.com/Papyrus.html Jack Rohan Fenwick wrote: > Hi all. I was just wondering, is there a copy of the Book of the Dead > available on the Web? > > Rohan Fenwick > z-fenwick.r@chac.qld.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:56:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Geoffrey Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL two questions Dear Francesca, > 1/ Quirke mentions that "the name of one king was once read by > Egyptologists as Raneb, 'Ra is my lord', but may now be interpreted as > Nebra, 'lord of the sun', on page 22. My question is : how do we know > whether to read Nebra or Raneb ? Is the symbol for Ra before the sign for > 'nb' ? There is no way to know, unfortunately, because Egyptian writing has several features which make this impossible. Names of deities are often placed at the beginnings of names and phrases due to high respect even when they were pronounced after other elements. This is called "honorific transposition". Another factor is that the first person singular pronoun ending, because it was probably vocalic was very often omitted from early writings. If the name were "Re is my lord", then it should be transliterated r`-nb=j. There is also a third possibility. It could have meant "Re is the lord" which would be r`-nb. I think that the possibility of its having meant "Lord of Re" is very slight. Nb=j-r` would also tend to mean "Re is my lord". Theologically, the name "Lord of the sun" would be somewhat problematic, at least from what we know of later Egyptian religion. How could anyone have been a "nb" of Re. Nb also means "possessor", and one would not expect even a king to claim to being "possessor of the sun" or "possessor of the Sungod, Re". > 2/ Is there a copy somewhere of the "Book of the Adoration of Ra" which > Quirke mentions on page 31 ? It is "a composition first attested in the > burial chamber of Useramun, vizier of Hatshepsut, and then in the tombs of > New Kingdom kings." Has it been published ? Is this maybe the "Litany of Re"? I am not familiar with the title Quirke employs. If you mean the Litany of Re, this occurs first in the tomb of Tuthmosis III as far as I know. I was not aware that it had first occurred in a non-royal context, but then I cannot claim to know all first occurrences of all mortuary texts. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu **************************************************************************** Geoffrey Graham, M.Phil, Egyptology, Yale University http://pantheon.yale.edu/~sokar/index.html ============================================================================== From: Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 19:26:02 EDT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Re: Book Of the Dead Location Here's another: http://www.sas.upenn.edu/African_Studies/Books/Papyrus_Ani.html Jay Bisno Culver City Al Capone's business card said he was a used furniture dealer. ============================================================================== From: Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 22:12:45 EDT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Amarna Letters Rainey, Anson F. Canaanite in the Amarna Tablets: A Linguistic Analysis of the Mixed Dialect Used by the Scribes from Canaan. 4 Volumes. Leiden; E.J. Brill, 1996. The first volume is devoted to orthography, phonology, pronouns, nouns, Anominal constructions (especially morphological and syntactical considerations) and numerals, and contains a general introduction to the four volume work. The second volume is probably to be regarded as the most essential, being a study of the verbal system. The Canaanite verbal system "attested" underneath the Akkadian of the Amarna letters is an exceedingly wily study, and the citations provided for evidence are extensive and helpful. The third volume is an analysis of particles and adverbs in the Amarna corpus. The buzzword in these three volumes seems to be morphosyntax, which simply, if not quite precisely, seems to mean Rainey is going to show the reader the form of the noun or verb or particle and discuss the ways that form is used. The last volume is a reference volume and also of great importance. It lists every word cited in the work and also contains an index recording every reference made to an Amarna passage and where it may be consulted in Rainey's CAT. Daniel Oden Philadelphia, PA USA << There is also a three-volume study of the Amarna letters recently published by Anson Rainey. It was published by Brill in Leiden, I believe in 1997. >> There is also Anson Rainey's El Amarna Tablets 359-379, AOAT 8, which was published in 1978 and was a supplement to Knudtzon's two volumes. Jay Bisno Culver City ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 15:31:18 +1000 From: Rohan Fenwick To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL two questions Francesca, In any king's name that contains the name of a god, the symbols for the god's name always come first eg. in the instance that you mentioned, the symbol for Ra would always come first regardless of whether the name is spoken as Raneb or Nebra. This is called "honorific transposition". As for how it is pronounced, we have no idea and probably won't find out unless there is a bilingual text that mentions his name. The only reason we pronounce the kings' names the way we do is because that is either the way the name was written in regard to the text, or the name "sounds" better than it would any other way. Write me if you have any questions. Rohan Fenwick z-fenwick.r@chac.qld.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 22:55:23 -0400 From: Chris Matthews Subject: AEL two questions To: Ancient Egyptian Language List The sign for "RA" is directly above "NEB". The stele is right at the entrance to the Metropolitan Museum's Egyptian galleries and was pictured a few years ago in KMT. The choice of order is up to you, Nebre, Reneb and Raneb are all seen. In the Nile Currents section of KMT Spring 1997 it is reported that carvings have been found with the names of both Rameses II and a General Nebre. It would be interesting to know how this was written in comparison to the name of the 2nd dynasty ruler. ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 22:15:41 +1000 To: Ancient Egyptian Language From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Weni! Dear Weni-philes, I have updated the commentary for Weni. Please point out any errors or omissions. Thanks to Jenny Carrington we are well into the poem embedded in this autobiography. Is there anyone who would be willing to give us some background analysis of this literary style. When I first read this passage I was very surprised. Right in the middle of recording his major achievements in life he slips into, of all things, a poem. Perhaps it is meant to be a song? In any case, this war must have been particularly memorable in his life. So, a few naive questions: Is it more likely to be a song rather than a poem? How was the beat structure recognised by the reader? Were word sounds (?rhyme?) important? Does this mean poetry/song was an important ability of by high officials (as in ancient China)? Any possible significance to the structure of the poem (7 or 14 lines long)? Regards, Mike ******************************** Mike Dyall-Smith, Melbourne, Australia m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au ******************************** ============================================================================== From: Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 15:12:28 EDT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL two questions Dear Geoff Graham and List-Members, According to W.B. Emery (Re: "Archaic Egypt" p. 93), "In the vicinity of an ancient trade route to the western oasis behind Armant, Ra-Neb's name has been found crudely inscribed on the rocks (fig.56)." Interestingly the order in the serech is Nb-(R' ?). I am incline to believe that the order in the other copies of the name are due to honorific transposition, since I believe that the less formal writing is more likely to reveal the true order. I have placed a question mark after the second element because the vocalization of the name "R' " is not attested to before Dynasty III (in the name of Hsj-r'). I would suggest that as the king became Horus by way of his coronation ritual, that the name might mean "Lord of the Sun." Since the sun was one of the eyes of Horus, this would emphasize that aspect of his divinity. I am sure by the time the name was used again in the New Kingdom, it was pronounced something like Neb-Re'. (for the name in the N.K. see PM I 2nd. ed. p. 321). What do you think of my suggestions? Sincerely Yours, John Deaton. Graduate Student Virginia Commonwealth University Richmond, Virginia. ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 21:33:14 +0200 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Francesca Subject: Re: AEL two questions At 06:56 PM 04/08/98 -0400, Geoffrey Graham wrote: >This is called "honorific >transposition". I didn't know of this rule. Thanks ! >If the name were "Re is my lord", then it should be transliterated >r`-nb=j. Right. =j denoting the possessive pronoun of "I" (my). >There is also a third possibility. It could have meant "Re is >the lord" which would be r`-nb. I think that the possibility of its >having meant "Lord of Re" is very slight. I agree with you. >> 2/ Is there a copy somewhere of the "Book of the Adoration of Ra" which >> Quirke mentions on page 31 ? > >Is this maybe the "Litany of Re"? I am not familiar with the title Quirke >employs. I am not sure. I think I will try to reach Quirke himself through the British Museum and ask him directly. I'll let the list know as soon as I receive an answer. Thanks to Rohan, Chris and Geoffrey for their quick answers. Francesca ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 21:35:48 +0200 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Francesca Subject: AEL Isis Group, once again a question which came by reading Quirke's "Ancient Egyptian Religion". On page 61, he mentions a story with Isis and seven scorpions. Anyone knows where I could find the text ? Thanks, Francesca ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: "AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk" Subject: AW: AEL two questions Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 22:41:57 +-200 Dear Francesca and Geoff, >2/ Is there a copy somewhere of the "Book of the Adoration of Ra" which Quirke mentions on page 31 ? It is "a composition first attested in the burial chamber of Useramun, vizier of Hatshepsut, and then in the tombs of New Kingdom kings." Has it been published ? *** Yes, "The book of the adoration of Re in the West" was the egyptian title of what is general refered to as the 'Solar Litany'. Publication: E. Hornung - "Das Buch der Anbetung des Re im Westen (Sonnenlitanei)" Teil II: Uebersetzung und Kommentar (Basel/Geneva 1977) It was a purely royal thing - so it is very, very odd the oldest version is indeed in the private tomb of Amenuser vizir of Hatshepsut! The oldest version in a *royal* tomb is in the tomb of Tutmoses III. kind regards, Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== From: eyerex@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 15:41:13 -0600 (MDT) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Learning I am wondering what book would help me learn Ancient egyptian. Elizabeth Yerex Edmonton, Canada ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 23:13:39 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL Learning Dear Elizabeth, There's a short introduction which includes a bibliography on the AEL web page. Point your browser at http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/hierointro.html Best wishes, Mark Wilson. On 5 Aug 98 at 15:41, eyerex@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca wrote: > I am wondering what book would help me learn Ancient egyptian. > > Elizabeth Yerex > Edmonton, Canada > > > -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/index.html ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 23:13:39 +0000 Subject: AEL Membership reaches 300! Dear all, AEL members might like to know that as of just now, our membership has reached the 300 mark for the first time. Not bad for a technical list with a relatively narrow focus! Regards, Mark Wilson. -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/index.html ============================================================================== From: "Mark Vygus" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language" Subject: AEL Weni L29-35 Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 23:17:33 +0100 another try at Weni....be kind L29 Dd.ti wn.ti btk.w n-xt-m xAs.t.i.w ipn told that there were rebels amongst these foreigners m Sr.t tp niA.w at the 'Nose-of-the-Gazelle's-head' L29/30 DAi.ki m nmi.w Hna TAz.w.t iptn I crossed in ships, together with these troops iri.n (=i) wdi ir tA m pH.w qAi.w.w n.i.w TAz.t I put to land at the back of the height of the mountain range L31 Hr mH.w.t tA Hr.i.w-Sa to the north of the land of the Sand-Dwellers sT gs twt n.i mSa pn m Hri.t while (the other) half of this army were travelling by land L31/32 ii.n (=i) nDrw.n (=i) sn mrw-qd=sn smA.i btk nb im=sn I returned (doubled-back ?) , I obstructed all of them and slew every rebel amongst them wn (=i) m AT.w(.t.i) Hw.t-aAi Xr.i-Tbw.t.i While I was (still only) Chamberlain of the Palace and Sandal-bearer rDi wi n.i-sw.t bi.t.i mri.i-n.i-ra nb (=i) anx.w D.t The King of Upper & Lower Egypt (Merenre) my lord,who lives forever placed me L33 m HAt.i-a im.i-rA Sma.w xnt m Abw mH.w.t m mdn.i.t as Mayor, and Overseer of Upper Egypt, south from Yebu, north to Medenit n iqr (=i) Hr ib n.i Hm=f because I was excellent in his majesty's heart n wAb (=i) Hr ib n.i Hm=f because I was rooted in his majesty's heart n mH ib n.i Hm=f im (=i) because his majesty's heart was filled with me L34 wn (=i) m ATw.t.i Xr.i-Tbw.t.i while I was Chamberlain and Sandal-bearer Hzi wi Hm=f Hr rs.w (=i) Hr stp-zA iri.n m st aHa.w his majesty praised me for my watch and escort duty while I attended Court L34/35 r sr=f nb r saH=f nb r bAk=f nb more than any official of his, more than any noble of his more than any servant of his ni zp iri.ti iA.t tn (i)n bAk nb Dr bAH never had this office been performed by any servant before iri.ki n =f im.i-rA Sma.w ir hrw.t I acted for him as Overseer of Upper Egypt, satisfactorily ir nfr-n wdd.w im=f m sn.w=f so that no-one in it (Egypt) attacked m sn.w =f against his brother Mark nsw-bit@msn.com ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:46:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Geoffrey Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Weni! Dear Mike, > When I first read this passage I was very surprised. Right in the middle > of recording his major achievements in life he slips into, of all things, a > poem. Perhaps it is meant to be a song? In any case, this war must have > been particularly memorable in his life. > So, a few naive questions: > Is it more likely to be a song rather than a poem? > How was the beat structure recognised by the reader? Were word sounds > (?rhyme?) important? > Does this mean poetry/song was an important ability of by high officials > (as in ancient China)? > Any possible significance to the structure of the poem (7 or 14 lines long)? Last year I wrote a paper on the metric structure of the Maxims of Ptahhotep. I was testing Gerhard Fecht's theory that it was composed in a meter which was more like Old Kindgom texts than Middle Kingdom ones. In order to test this theory it was necessary to reconstruct several Old and Middle Kingdom metrical texts. One of my selections from the Old Kingdom was this particular passage of Weni's biography. The following is my reconstruction: THE VICTORY HYMN FROM THE AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF WENI 'ayna-mu:Sa`-pin im-Hatap / --'- / --'- / xabiln@f tal Hariyyu-Sa` / -' / -' / --'- / 'ayna-mu:Sa`-pin im-Hatap / --'- / --'- / p@disn@f tal Hariyyu-Sa` / -' / -' / --'- / 'ayna-mu:Sa`-pin im-Hatap / --'- / --'- / saSinn@f winawt@f / -'- / -'- / 'ayna-mu:Sa`-pin im-Hatap / --'- / --'- / Sa`in@f dalbaww@f 'urarawt@f / -'- / -'- / --'- / 'ayna-mu:Sa`-pin im-Hatap / --'- / --'- / satin@f 'axa im-parawf-nib / -'- / '- / --'- / 'ayna-mu:Sa`-pin im-Hatap / --'- / --'- / samiln@f ciliwat@f 'imaf / -'- / --'- / -' / im-Ciba`u `iSilu / --'- / -'- / 'ayna-mu:Sa`-pin im-Hatap / --'- / --'- / 'aynin@f ciliwa 'imaf / -'- / -'- / -' / `iSilw@ wu:ra im siqara `anxu / -'- / '- / --'-/ '- / Fecht seems to have been absolutely right. The most amazing thing was that Ptahhoteps's Maxims were composed in an almost identical meter to this particular text. I cannot tell you wether this text was a song or just a poem, but it was clearly designed to have a particular meter as you can see from the above reconstruction of the stress patterns. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu **************************************************************************** Geoffrey Graham, M.Phil, Egyptology, Yale University http://pantheon.yale.edu/~sokar/index.html ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:51:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Geoffrey Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL two questions Dear Mr. Deaton, > According to W.B. Emery (Re: "Archaic Egypt" p. 93), "In the vicinity of > an ancient trade route to the western oasis behind Armant, Ra-Neb's name has > been found crudely inscribed on the rocks (fig.56)." Interestingly the order > in the serech is Nb-(R' ?). In that event perhaps the transcription should be nb=j-r` meaning "my lord is Re". I am incline to believe that the order in the > other copies of the name are due to honorific transposition, since I believe > that the less formal writing is more likely to reveal the true order. This is probably true. I have > placed a question mark after the second element because the vocalization of > the name "R' " is not attested to before Dynasty III (in the name of Hsj-r'). > I would suggest that as the king became Horus by way of his coronation ritual, > that the name might mean "Lord of the Sun." Since the sun was one of the eyes > of Horus, this would emphasize that aspect of his divinity. I am sure by the > time the name was used again in the New Kingdom, it was pronounced something > like Neb-Re'. (for the name in the N.K. see PM I 2nd. ed. p. 321). What do you > think of my suggestions? I would be more inclined to see it as "My lord is Re". We have to be careful about too much conjecture. Until you can find some attestation of any king who claimed possession of the sun, it would be most unusual to postit this. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu **************************************************************************** Geoffrey Graham, M.Phil, Egyptology, Yale University http://pantheon.yale.edu/~sokar/index.html ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 22:34:04 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Weni! Mike Dyall-Smith wrote: > Is it more likely to be a song rather than a poem? You mean there's a difference?! > How was the beat structure recognised by the reader? Were word sounds > (?rhyme?) important? Since Egyptian was a strongly accented language, I don't think there would have been any problem recognizing the rhythm. I keep meaning to sit down with this passage and see what the meter is, but never have the time. Geoff Graham was doing some work on rhythms in Old and Middle Egyptian last spring. Parallelism of phrases / thoughts was important, but probably not rhyme - though perhaps assonance like Saxon verse? There are comments on this in Lichtheim and in Erman. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:55:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Geoffrey Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Isis Dear Francesca, > once again a question which came by reading Quirke's "Ancient Egyptian > Religion". On page 61, he mentions a story with Isis and seven scorpions. > Anyone knows where I could find the text ? It seems to me that this story is reproduced in one of Budge's books. Budge may not be the best source, but he has published several texts and you can probably at least rely on his hieroglyphs if not his translations of transliterations. Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu **************************************************************************** Geoffrey Graham, M.Phil, Egyptology, Yale University http://pantheon.yale.edu/~sokar/index.html ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 15:34:24 +1000 From: Rohan Fenwick To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Learning Elizabeth, I haven't read the book myself, but the ideal choice would be Alan Gardiner's book. I'm not sure of the title, here it is just referred to as "Gardiner text", but it is apparently a very good book. Gardiner's book is available from www.amazon.com for $69.95 US. If you're looking for something cheaper, then it might be possible to look in your local library. That's what I did and it's doing me very well. Rohan Fenwick z-fenwick.r@chac.qld.edu.au ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 22:28:00 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Learning eyerex@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca wrote: > > I am wondering what book would help me learn Ancient egyptian. Aha! Another Canadian! There are quite a number of books available, depending on what level of Egyptian learning you want to get to. There are some that might be available by interlibrary loan at your library to see how you like them. One that I have had that way which might help you "get your feet wet" is Barbara Watterson's _Introduction to Egyptian Hieroglyphics_. It will give you the basics of the hieroglyphic writing system, some vocabulary and basic grammar, and introduce you to reading a few inscriptions. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: "Christopher Jacobs" To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL Isis Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 02:25:27 -0500 The story of Isis and the seven scorpions is in Budge's LEGENDS OF THE EGYPTIAN GODS (Dover Publications 1994 reprint of Kegan Paul, Trench, Truebner & Co 1912 edition). It has the glyphs on the left pages and English translation on the right, with no transliterations. The Isis narrative is under "The Legend of the Death of Horus Through the Sting of a Scorpion and of his Resurrection Through Thoth, and Other Magical Texts." The texts evidently were recited as part of scorpion sting cures, but the Isis narrative contains a fair amount of dialogue (mainly monologues of Isis' laments), some of it rather moving. Christopher Jacobs chjacobs@badlands.nodak.edu http://www.und.nodak.edu/instruct/cjacobs/Jacobs.htm ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 11:00:28 +0200 To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: Francesca Subject: Re: AEL Isis At 06:55 PM 05/08/98 -0400, Geoffrey Graham wrote: >It seems to me that this story is reproduced in one of Budge's books. >Budge may not be the best source, but he has published several texts and >you can probably at least rely on his hieroglyphs if not his translations >of transliterations. Geoff, do you know in which of Budge's books it would be ? Thanks. Francesca ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:50:21 -0500 (CDT) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Mary Jo Jackel Subject: Re: AEL Membership reaches 300! >Dear all, > >AEL members might like to know that as of just now, our membership >has reached the 300 mark for the first time. Not bad for a technical >list with a relatively narrow focus! > > >Regards, >Mark Wilson. I for one am very grateful for the information and the generous response to questions by the knowledgeable members of the list. Thank you Mark for the list and thanks to all of the contributers. Mary Jo ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 15:10:00 -0400 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Gerald Kadish Subject: Re: AEL Weni! Dear Geoff: I was a bit taken aback by your message on metrics, especially on Fecht. Unless my memory is still worse than I recognize, the Fechtian approach to metrics -- which dominates German egyptology on this score -- does not stress rhythmic beat-on-syllable metrics, but rather on `units of meaning'. Miriam Lichtheim's rejection of his view of metrics is in JARCE IX (1971-72), 103-110. Have you dealt with Jack Foster's monograph _Thought Couplets and Clause Sequences in a Literary Text: The Maxims of Ptah-Hotep_ (Toronto, 1977)? I'll take a look at your work on the Weni poem when i have a chance. -- Gerry Gerald E. Kadish Professor of History and Near Eastern Studies Department of History Binghamton University Binghamton, NY 13902-6000 (607) 777-2488 e-mail address: kadishg@binghamton.edu ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AW: AEL Isis Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 19:00:48 +-200 Dear Francesca, > once again a question which came by reading Quirke's "Ancient Egyptian > Religion". On page 61, he mentions a story with Isis and seven scorpions. > Anyone knows where I could find the text ? **In Brunner-Traut - "Altaegyptische Maerchen", 1963 This is only the German translation, no transcription or glyphs. It's about the pregnant Isis fleeing for Seth after the dead of Osiris, to go hide in Chemnis, till she can give birth to Horus an till he is old and strong enough to face his uncle and reclaim the throne. During her flight she is escorted by 7 scorpions: Tefun and Befun behind her Mostet and Mostetef on each side of her Pitet, Titet and Matet before her. In this story, as in some others, Isis is the mistress of magic, with special talent for driving out poison of scorpions and snakes. In another tale this gift strangely is failing (even: lacking?) her, when the Horus baby gets poisonned by the bite of something unmentionned, while mother and son are in the hide-out in Chemnis. Re himself has to drive out the poison, the solar barque taking a miraculous halt in the sky. In yet another tale Isis uses these special talents in a questionable way: she makes a magical snake to bite the poor old Re; and then promisses to drive out the poison only if he tells her his secret name (the only secret in the world she does not know). Her plan works. Not a pretty picture, certainly not if you remember the previous mentionned tale! Aayko Eyma (contemplating witches, bitches, and Deliliahs) ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 08:52:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Geoffrey Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Meter and Stress in Weni Dear Gerry, Thanks for the note. > I was a bit taken aback by your message on metrics, especially on Fecht. > Unless my memory is still worse than I recognize, the Fechtian approach to > metrics -- which dominates German egyptology on this score -- does not > stress rhythmic beat-on-syllable metrics, but rather on `units of meaning'. > Miriam Lichtheim's rejection of his view of metrics is in JARCE IX > (1971-72), 103-110. Let me clarify my intentions in the paper I did. I had been reading Ptahhotep and various articles about these maxims. I was struck that Fecht still insisted that this was originally an Old Kingdom composition when it seems so clearly to have entirely Middle Egyptian features. One of his pivotal arguments was that the meter of the text was like Old Kingdom meter. He never provided any examples of such and this troubled me, basically challenging me to see if I could penetrate the question from a mechanical level on my own and either confirm or dismiss these assertions. So, my paper was not about "literature" per se, and thus did not revolve around thought couplets and other literary devices, but rather on the bare nuts and bolts of stress... based on vowel length, syllable lenght, etc. I had begun to learn the tools of vocalic reconstruction of ancient Egyptian with Jim Allen and, although this process was very time-consuming, I decided to take as many relevant texts as I could in the short amount of time available to me and work through them. I took a passage from Ptahhotep, a Passage from the Pyramid Texts, this passage from Weni, a passage from Sinuhe, and a passage from the Coffin Texts. The first thing which I did was to translate all of them. Then I looked up each word in various Coptic etymological dictionaries until I had found out if it had a Coptic manifestation or not. For words which had Coptic equivalents I worked backwards in vocalization checking myself wherever possible against Osing and Schenkel. For words which had no Coptic equivalents I resorted to parallelism, mostly using Osing's work. After reconstructing the various words I then had to consider their grammatical functions and adjust them accordingly. Then, applying rules of syllabication and stress mostly taken from Arabic but also from what we know of Coptic (yes this all had to be very theoretical) I broke things up into syllables and attempted to assign stresses. Finally, I had to look for what repetitions were to be found in these stress patters. I believe that I began this with an open mind realizing that I might find nothing or that I might find something entirely surprising. If anything I had expected to prove that Fecht had been wrong in his assertions, and that Ptahhotep was datable to the Middle Kingdom, being pseudepigraphic. What I did find was that two of the pieces I considered happened to have an almost identical set of repetitive stress patterns, perhaps an identical meter: these were the Ptahhotep passage and the Weni passage. I was frankly very surprised by this. Fecht had clearly seen something but had failed to adequately communicate it to the reader in his article. This similarity still cannot prove that Ptahhotep was really composed in the Old Kingdom, but I do believe that it proves that the author was familiar with the same kind of verse which was employed in Weni's victory hymn. I do not know what this means about Fecht's "view of meter" as opposed to those of various other scholars, but I do know that I obtained a similar result to Fecht using only "nuts and bolts". It was certainly an interesting exercise. You and others may not believe that what I have done has any validity, or that it is too subjective or theoretical, but I challenge anyone else to attempt it and see what they find independently from my primitive experiment. Yours, Geoff Graham **************************************************************************** Geoffrey Graham, M.Phil, Egyptology, Yale University http://pantheon.yale.edu/~sokar/index.html ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 23:34:49 +1000 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Weni L29-35 Dear Mark, >L29 >Dd.ti wn.ti btk.w n-xt-m xAs.t.i.w ipn >told that there were rebels amongst these foreigners Dd.ti, A passive sDm.ti/w=f in initial position. Is there a missing suffix pronoun ? ie. Dd.t(i)=i, 'I was told'. Or was it meant to be hearsay, "It was said" and the 3rd person suffix pronoun is not written? wn.ti, Couldn't this just be the conjunction wn.t "that", ( a feminine derivative of the verb wnn), introducing a noun clause as object of the first verb ? Following wnt is a construction (noun-prep.-noun) that would look like a typical adverbial sentence if it stood alone (with an initial iw). n-xt-m, I take as a compound preposition. I can't find this in Faulkner or in Hannig. xt means 'through', 'pervading'. The prep. m-xt, means 'after', 'accompanying'. What is the nuance of n-xt-m? Is n-xt the same as m-xt? Then it might mean something like 'accompanying as', ie. hiding amongst. Regards, Mike D-S ******************************** Mike Dyall-Smith, Melbourne, Australia m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au ******************************** ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 23:58:11 +1000 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL Weni! Responding to Stephen Fryer's comment on the Weni 'Poem': >Mike Dyall-Smith wrote: > >> Is it more likely to be a song rather than a poem? > >You mean there's a difference?! This is interesting. Songs and poems are obviously connected but in a practical sense they can differ. What occasions and settings would be appropriate for poetry reading and singing? Music and singing seem to be very popular in Egypt. I could imagine Weni's army singing a victory song, or it being sung at a special celebration after the campaign. Geoff Graham suggested to me that it could have been written by Weni's subordinates, to praise him. If Weni wrote this as a poem to mark the success of this campaign, who would he have read it to? I doubt it would have been for the king, as the king is not mentioned. Regards, Mike D-S ******************************** Mike Dyall-Smith, Melbourne, Australia m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au ******************************** ============================================================================== From: mschreiber@bigfoot.com (Michael S. Schreiber) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Learning Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 23:03:22 GMT >eyerex@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca wrote: >> >> I am wondering what book would help me learn Ancient egyptian. There are a number of introductions to Ancient Egyptian available in bookstores and through Amazon.com. Gardiner's Egyptian Grammar (3rd ed.) (already mentioned in some replies) is certainly the standard for the serious student. However, I would mention a few other useful texts for beginners and amateurs (such as myself). (only recently published) Mark Collier & Bill Manley " How to Read Egyptian Heiroglyphs" ISBN 0-520-21597-4 (Univ. Cal Press) is the best beginner's aid I have found (I am reading it now). It is clearly written with a specific concentration on the types of examples that would be found on ancient monuments, making it very practical for the beginner. "The Handbook of Egyptian Hieroglyphs: A Study of the Ancient Language" by Samuel A.B. Mercer (in paperback) ISBN 0-87052-102-0 (Hippocrene Books) is a good grammatical introduction to the language, but the long exercises do not include answers to check your work against. "Heiroglyphs Without Mystery: An Introduction to Ancient Egyptian Writing" by Karl-Theodor Zauzinch (in paperback) ISBN 0-292-79804-0 (Univ. of Texas Press) is the first and simplest of the introductions I have found and uses items from King Tut's tomb and other interesting materials as study exercises. "Reading Egyptian Art: A Heiroglypic Guide to Ancient Egyptian Painting and Sculpture" by Richard H. Wilkinson ISBN 0-500-27751-6 is a wonderful compendium of about 100 common signs, with short well illustrated essays on their use in egyptian art. All of the books listed above are available through http://www.amazon.com One book that I have not read, which other members of this list might comment on, and that seems to be fairly popular is "Middle Egyptian Grammar," by James Hoch more information on this book can be found at http://www.utoronto.ca/gsunion/hoch/middleegyptiangrammar.html Finally don't miss the good introductions located on line at: http://hosting.netvision.be/egyptologica/e_hiero.htm (by Egyptologica Vlaanderen VZW) http://home.prcn.org/~sfryer/Egyptian/intro.html (by Stephen Fryer) and don't miss the AEL home page which contains references to other sources at http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/hierointro.html I hope this helps Michael S. Schreiber mschreiber@bigfoot.com http://members.aol.com/Egyptmouse "A day without laugher is a day wasted" - Charlie Chaplin ============================================================================== From: mschreiber@bigfoot.com (Michael S. Schreiber) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL two questions Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 23:31:29 GMT On Thu, 06 Aug 1998 15:31:18 +1000, Rohan Fenwick wrote: >The only reason >we pronounce the kings' names the way we do is because that is either >the way the name was written in regard to the text, or the name "sounds" >better than it would any other way. Is this true in all cases? I had understood that at least for some kings' names the order of pronunciation was determined in part by references found in contemporary non-egyptian sources. Michael S. Schreiber mschreiber@bigfoot.com http://members.aol.com/Egyptmouse "A day without laugher is a day wasted" - Charlie Chaplin ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Weni Poem Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 17:28:41 PDT I thought the poem might be a chant that the troups sang as they marched home. Each step matching a stress point in the poem. Like saying a mantra when you are walking somewhere, that makes the time seem to pass more quickly. The army would be keen to get home, with the fighting over, their thoughts would be on family and friends. m Htp, Jenny Carrington ============================================================================== From: eyerex@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 21:30:37 -0600 (MDT) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Learning How did the rule of Akhenaten and the rule of the Greeks and Romans, effect the Ancient Egyptian Language. Elizabeth Edmonton, Canada ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 10:19:37 -0400 From: Ed Burrucker To: AEL Mailing List Subject: AEL Egyptology/Hieroglyph Courses Greetings, All! Being relatively new to Egyptology (five years), I need to take formal courses in the subject. However, the Web being the all-or-nothing animal it is with thousands of related (and otherwise) links, I can only find a few US locations where I can either attend courses OR take correspondence courses (if I move to Berkeley or Chicago, my worries are over). I am a few miles south of Baltimore and am willing to do some driving to get into a developed course. Yes, I have Gardiner, Zauzich, Wilkinson, Mercer and even Budge, but I would enjoy a regimen more disciplined than my making the same errors for a few hours a day. If you have suggestions (institutions or sites are fine...I can research from there), I would welcome them greatly! Thank you most kindly for your attention, Friends! Ed Burrucker eburruck@worldnet.att.net ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 09 Aug 1998 11:13:51 -0400 From: Don Feruggia To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Meter and Stress in Weni Geoffrey Graham wrote: > What I did find was that two of the pieces I considered happened to have > an almost identical set of repetitive stress patterns, perhaps an > identical meter: these were the Ptahhotep passage and the Weni passage. What types of stress patterns did you find? I've always thought it amazing that poetry and song should be based on rhythm everywhere in the world except in the Middle East! I'd be very interested in seeing your vocalizations of some of these passages. ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: AEL Shipwrecked Sailor line 14b-17a Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 17:27:10 +-200 Hi all, High time to continue with our Sailor. (14b-16) jx wSb=k wSd=t=k mdw=k n n-sw.t jb=k m'=k wSb=k nn njtj.t According to my books, the particle jx introduces a wish sentence (with prospective SDm=f). Faulkner translates the particle with "then, therefore". wSd.t=k: At first you think: sDm.t=f form? This form notably comes after the negative particle and some prepostions; Brunner says "past", Borghouts says "future". In fact, Borghouts says it is a future result regarded as completed "shall have been ...". Hmm, would that fit here? I do not think it can be used passively though? And we would need a passive, with =k as victim, not subject, seeing the context. So then you look a bit further abd find that the impersonal suffix =t(w) can be followed by a pronoun suffix to make a kind of passive: wSd.t(w)=k "you are questionned". Anyone having a bit more clearcut thoughts on this? The construction 'nn + infinitive' means "without ...-ing" So we get: (14b-16) "That you may answer (when) one addresses you, (that) you may speak to the king, your heart in your possession, " [i.e. "with self-control"] "(that) you may answer without stammering." Aayko Eyma ==============================================================================