From: Michael Tilgner To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: AW: Re: AEL Weni. L19-28 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 01:45:21 +0200 Jenny Carrington wrote: > Greetings Gerald, > You wrote; >> I'd be interested to learn what you think `to reveal' (as an >> interpretation of wb3, l. 22) means. What is Weni actually telling us? >> -- GEK > I must admit I wasnt sure about this word but I used it in the sense of > making known the number of troups. Gardiner gives its meaning as to > open, and Faulkner has to reveal as well as open. I felt that > Lichtheims translation as determined implies merely counting the > troops and does not contain the full meaning of wbA. Budges dictionary > has a similar word with a determinative of an eye meaning to open the > eyes, to look, to gaze, to spy into, to examine. Perhaps reviewed the > number of these troops would fit better in a military situation, after > the king had assembled the army and put Weni in command. Though I can't participate in your translation effort now I want to add the following remarks at least: Jenny's transcription and translation were (in a posting on July 14): > L 22. //////////// x.t nb.t .......... anything. > wbA.n(=3DI) Tnw Tsw.t iptn n sp wbA.t n bAk nb > I revealed the number of these troops. Never before had it been revealed > by any servant. Lichtheim, Ancient Egyptian Literature, Vol. I, p. 20 translated this text as follows: "I determined the number of these troops. It had never been determined by any servant." She gave as reference Edel, Altaegyptische Grammatik, paragraph 992. Edel discussed in this paragraph the ellipse (omission) of the pronominal subject: "the suffixes of the 3rd person can be omitted which, however, occurs rarely. Such for the passives sDmtif and sDmwf:" and translated "I found out/determined the number of these troops" n zp wbAti[f] n bAk nb "It (the number) had never been found out/determined by any servant." wbA to find out, to determine (German: feststellen) Another example of wbA is in paragraph 696 wbA Hrst msiww nSd "to pierce pearls by jewellers" wbA to pierce (German: durchbohren) The "Lexikon der Aegyptologie" translated several examples as follows wbA to unlock, to open (German: aufschlie=DFen) Rainer Hannig, "Grosses Handwoerterbuch Aegyptisch-Deutsch (2800-950 v. Chr.)", Mainz, 1995, p. 186/7 wbA (1) to open (door, part of the body) (2) to open, to make accessible, passable (unknown or inaccessible location); to explore, to walk on (way); to make navigable (lakes and rivers); to open up, to clear (way) (3) [medical] to have an orifice, a way out (4) [figurative] to reveal, to disclose (5) to drill, to drill out, to pierce (stone, pearl of carnelian); to sink (well) (6) wbA-ib (a) clever (b) to open the heart, to betray, to confide (7) wbA-Hr (a) to be able to see (again) (also in the sense of: to realize, to become aware of) (b) to be skillful, experienced (m in work) wbAw-Hr scholars, experts (8) [medical] to improve vision I think meaning (4) fits well in the context. Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@baan.nl ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:24:47 -0400 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Gerald Kadish Subject: Re: AW: Re: AEL Weni. L19-28 Michael: Thanks for our review of the meanings of wb3. I put to you the same question i put to Jenny: what does it mean to `reveal' the number of troops? Lichtheim's `determine' makes sense, but are there examples of that extended meaning for wb3. For another -- if not widely accepted -- view, see my article in JEA 52 (1966). -- Gerry Gerald E. Kadish Professor of History and Near Eastern Studies Department of History Binghamton University Binghamton, NY 13902-6000 (607) 777-2488 e-mail address: kadishg@binghamton.edu ============================================================================== From: Michael Tilgner To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: AW: Re: AW: Re: AEL Weni. L19-28 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:07:27 +0200 Gerald E. Kadish wrote: > I put to you the same > question i put to Jenny: what does it mean to `reveal' the number of > troops? Lichtheim's `determine' makes sense, but are there examples of that > extended meaning for wb3. For another -- if not widely accepted -- view, > see my article in JEA 52 (1966). Dear Gerry, unfortunately I don't have access to JEA at the moment and to your interpretation so that I cannot comment on it. BTW, Lichtheim cited your article, too. If one looks at the meanings given by Hannig one gets the impression that the original meaning of wbA is to exert some physical force to bore a hole into something; figuratively you have to exert some mental force, need some effort to overcome an obstacle or to unlock something to find out, to determine something. Therefore this translation gives an understandable interpretation. I agree that one should look for other instances of wbA with this meaning. Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@baan.nl ============================================================================== From: "ydupont" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Cc: Subject: Re: AEL Weni.P3, 17-19 Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 12:35:25 +0200 Mark Wilson wrote on june 23 about l.19 : [19] ink wn iri(=i) n=sn sxr* *What is going on this sentence ? It seems a bit strange with the verbs wn and iri, one right aftrer the other. Possibly, the use of two auxiliary verbs gives emphasis. I translate this sentence (in french) : *C'est moi qui les commande* Is it a good use ? amicales salutations / kind regards Yves Dupont - Lyon Croix-Rousse - France y-dupont@formations.net http://www.formations.net/y-dupont/ ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 20:18:59 +0200 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Weni.P3, 17-19 ydupont writes: > Mark Wilson wrote on june 23 about l.19 : > [19] ink wn iri(=i) n=sn sxr* > > *What is going on this sentence ? It seems a bit strange with the verbs wn > and iri, one right aftrer the other. > > Possibly, the use of two auxiliary verbs gives emphasis. > > I translate this sentence (in french) : > *C'est moi qui les commande* > > Is it a good use ? > > amicales salutations / kind regards > Yves Dupont - Lyon Croix-Rousse - France > y-dupont@formations.net > http://www.formations.net/y-dupont/ Perhaps "wn" stands for "wnt" (gardiner par 127,4) "indeed", and the whole is to be translated "ink wn(t) ir n=sn sxr", cleft-sentence, with "ir" being a perfective participle : "It was indeed me who commanded them". Regards, ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:21:05 -0400 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Gerald Kadish Subject: Re: AEL Weni.P3, 17-19 Dear Weni-philes: The passage at Urk. I, 102:9 under discussion is treated by Edel in his _Alt=A"gyptische Grammatik_ II, =A7 897. He understands the passage as part of a past formation he labels wnf sDmf (i.e. wn=3Df sDm=3Df). He transliterates our example as: (converting j to i) ink wni irii nsn shr and translates "ich machte fu"r sie die Planung". As much as i tend to admire Edel's views, I would modify his reading a bit. I would agree that it is wn=i; wn(t) requires an emendation (to be avoided unless driven to it). I take ink wn=1 as an emphasizing structure: "As for me, I was . . . ." The suggestion that ir is a perfective active participle seems right to me, so i would translate "As for me, I was the one who devised the plan for them." Perhaps an alternative rendering would be: 'I, I was the one who ...." -- Gerry Gerald E. Kadish Professor of History and Near Eastern Studies Department of History Binghamton University Binghamton, NY 13902-6000 (607) 777-2488 e-mail address: kadishg@binghamton.edu ============================================================================== From: To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:34:10 +0200 Subject: AEL Letters to Akhenaten During the reign of Akhenaten there was an exchange of letters between Akhenaten and Kassite king Burnaburiash. Does anybody know where these letters are published (book or electronic) and if they were in hieratic/hieroglyphs? regards, Marc van Kollenburg e-mail: m.v.kollenburg@kbi.nl ==============================================================================