From: "Michel Blanc" To: "AEgyptian-L" Subject: AEL How to understand the word aD writen V26:d-W22:Z2 Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 18:57:53 +0100 Dear List Members, Refering to the Carnavon Tablet n°1, line 11, which reads: pdt nt mDAyw Hryt TArt n r HH styw r dr st sn iAbt imnt Xr aD iry mSa Hr DfAw m xt m st nbt D. Redford (in ED Oren, The Hyksos: New historical and archeological perspectives, Philadelphia 1997 pp. 1-44) translates: "... the Medjay archers (being) a-top our fighting-tops on the lookout for the Asiatics in order to destroy their places. East and West proffered their abundance, and the army provisioned itself everywhere.". However some french sholars (i.e. C Barbotin, Ahmosis et le début de la XVIII° dyn, Pygmalion, Paris2008, pp. 174-176) translate: "...the Medjay troop... will lookout for the Asiatics and destroy their places, east and west providing them with grease, and the army provisioned itself everywhere." And they explain that grease is currently used by archers to protect their bow strings from humidity... So,I would highly appreciate any comment regarding how to understand ant translate "iAbt imnt Xr aD iry". Thanks a lot in advance. Michel Blanc France ============================================================================== From: "Marianne Luban" Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 21:39:05 GMT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: Re: AEL How to understand the word aD writen V26:d-W22:Z2 ---------- Original Message ---------- From: "Michel Blanc" >Dear List Members, >Refering to the Carnavon Tablet n�1, line 11, which reads: >pdt nt mDAyw Hryt TArt n r HH styw r dr st sn iAbt imnt Xr aD iry >mSa Hr DfAw m xt m st nbt First of all, I would transliterate a bit differently: pDwt nt mDyAw Hryt TArt=n r HHy stiw "The troops of the Medjai were atop our cabins in order to seek out the Asiatics" It seems to me the pDwt should be "troops" due to the determinatives and the men of Kamose are coming by ship right into the waters before Avaris. Evidently, those Medjai were the sharp-eyed ones, used to looking across stretches of desert for anything oncoming. r dr ist=sn "for the purpose of finding out their positions" I believe "dr" can mean "find out" because "dr" basically has the meaning of getting rid of something--in this case the hiding places of the Asiatics. In other words, they cannot hide from those Medjai on the roofs. I realize it seems a strange use of the verb but others have agreed and translated it as "ascertain", this being the only thing that makes sense with what comes before. >However some french sholars (i.e. C Barbotin, Ahmosis et le d�t de la >XVIII� dyn, Pygmalion, Paris2008, pp. 174-176) >translate: "...the Medjay troop... will lookout for the Asiatics and destroy >their places, east and west providing them with grease, >and the army provisioned itself everywhere." Well, I think the scribe could have found a better verb for "destroy", if that is what was intended. Then comes: iAbtt imntt xr aD >And they explain that grease is currently used by archers to protect their >bow strings from humidity... I don't think so. Don't scholars ever read the Bible? Ancient peoples had similar expressions and I think, in this case, it's like the Biblical "fat of the land" that one can live off. "East and West were loaded with fat". See Gardiner paragraph 166, page 128. And that's what the next phrase is telling us, too. That the soldiers foraged for food all over the place. iry mSaw Hr DfAw m xt m st nbt Marianne Luban http://thetimetravelerreststop.blogspot.com/ ============================================================================== From: "Marianne Luban" Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 19:19:58 GMT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: Re: AEL How to understand the word aD writen V26:d-W22:Z2 I wrote: >pDwt nt mDyAw Hryt TArt=n r HHy stiw >"The troops of the Medjai were atop our cabins in order to seek out the >Asiatics" There's a typo--it should be "mDAyw"--and I had the hieroglyphic text right in front of me. Also, it should be "TArwt=n" as the word has the three strokes of plurality. Marianne Luban http://thetimetravelerreststop.blogspot.com/ ============================================================================== From: "Michel Blanc" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: RE: AEL How to understand the word aD writen V26:d-W22:Z2 Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 11:53:08 +0100 Dear Marianne, Your interpretation sticks perfectly with the "military" situation and I agree with you that, in that sentence, "dr" has the meaning of "find". I had not realized that iry was introducing the next part of the sentence... Best regards ============================================================================== From: "Michel Blanc" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: RE: AEL How to understand the word aD writen V26:d-W22:Z2 Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 10:14:17 +0100 1- "Many collectivess in .t are written with the plural strokes, though they are really feminine singulars and are so treated syntactically." (Gardiner § 77). 2- The Z2 plural sign definitely belongs to the suffix-pronoun, =n and we should read TAr.t=n as you originally stated. Therefore I rather translate: "A troop of mDAw was atop of our cabin in order to seek out the Asiatics" ============================================================================== From: "Marianne Luban" Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 19:28:38 GMT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: RE: AEL How to understand the word aD writen V26:d-W22:Z2 ---------- Original Message ---------- From: "Michel Blanc" Dear Marianne, >Your interpretation sticks perfectly with the "military" situation and I >agree with you that, in that sentence, "dr" has the meaning of "find". >I had not realized that iry was introducing the next part of the sentence... I didn't mean to give that impession because I don't think it's the case. I think it means something like "thereof"--"East and West were full of the fat thereof". I think this is like the other term, "xr" not always so clear or easy to translate. By the way, those Kamose texts use that type of "xr" several times. James Hoch says it has the meanings "bearing, carrying, holding, having,[ being] in a state or condition". But I don't think any of that makes for an English translation. I am quite convinced it has to do with "fat of the land", as I said. Here are the troops going down river, which has the right and left banks. They stop to find food before landing at Nefrusi to take on an enemy there. Marianne Luban ============================================================================== From: "Timothy A. Jackson" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL How to understand the word aD writen V26:d-W22:Z2 Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 22:50:23 -0500 The mDaw were the same people who served as police for Pharaoh, and their descendents were the "Fuzzy-Wuzzies" of the 19th century that were the only native people to crush the English Squares in the war of the MahDi against the Europeans. Rudyard Kipling wrote a poem about them. They had white linen garments and dreadlocks, and carried shields and broadswords against the rifles of the British. And they "crumpled up the English squares", and routed a modern army. Somewhat like the Ethiopians did at Adowa at the turn of the 20th century. ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 14:13:08 -0800 From: Sam_Kimpton To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Museum of antiquities under imminent risk of fire. Sorry for the off topic announcement but this should be of interest to all with an interest in Egyptology. The Ruling party headquarters building in Cairo which is next door to the Museum of Antiquities is burning as I write this. With the current situation there it is questionable if they will be able to control this fire unhampered and the museum is at risk. Thousands of priceless artifacts including documents are in danger of being lost forever. ============================================================================== From: "Marianne Luban" Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 19:50:06 GMT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: RE: AEL How to understand the word aD writen V26:d-W22:Z2 ---------- Original Message ---------- From: "Michel Blanc" Dear Michel, >1- "Many collectivess in .t are written with the plural strokes, though they >are really feminine singulars and are so treated syntactically." (Gardiner 77). >2- The Z2 plural sign definitely belongs to the suffix-pronoun, =n and we >should read TAr.t=n as you originally stated. >Therefore I rather translate: "A troop of mDAw was atop of our cabin in >order to seek out the Asiatics" You may be right. However, in this case, the cabin or cabins seem to fall at the end of the line. While, yes, in the text the suffix =n has those three strokes usually, in this instance, since there was no more room, the strokes may have had to suffice for both the suffix and "TAr.t". If not, then Kamose is saying "our cabin" in the manner of some monarchs who refer to themselves in the plural-- but has not been demonstrated to be the Egyptian way. So, if there is only one ship with a cabin, that being the ship of the Theban prince, why does he not say "my cabin" or simply "the cabin", the article being implied since the body of the text is in Middle Egyptian? Anyway, I don't think it likely that only one ship was making its way down river to the north. I really like these Kamose texts. They are quite vivid, don't you think? Marianne Luban http://thetimetravelerreststop.blogspot.com/ ============================================================================== From: "Michel Blanc" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: RE: AEL How to understand the word aD writen V26:d-W22:Z2 Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 18:00:48 +0100 Dear Marianne, On the Carnarvon Tablet N° 1 TAr.t=n is in the middle of line 11. I have two versions of the hiéroglyphic text where TAr.t= sn is writen same way: G47-G1-r:t-pr:n*Z2 the Z2 sign being vertical. Apparently line 11 of Kamose Stelae N°1 is broken right after the Z2 sign. For sure there was more than one boat down the Nile and most certainly Pharaon's one was heading the fleet. And I agree that one should have expected TAr.t=i or TAr.wt=n ... May be somebody has the adequate translation? Anyway, I also like very much that kind of more or less unformal text. ==============================================================================