Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 13:35:34 -0500 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Christina Paul Subject: Re: AEL Medicine or Incense? (WAS Re: AEL Change of Subject/iwdnb) Since in the treatment of many diseases, the appeasement of the Goddess Sekhmet who had the ability to bring both illness as well as healing, it makes perfect sense that the medicinal laudanum and the incense would have some carry over to both purposes. As Katherine described, laudanum is an opiate and it was used in cases of infection, . Its use would also hold correspond quite neatly into the legends and quelling of the rage of Sekhmet by use of an opiate slipped into red beer. Its my belief that illness and infection was viewed as (fever, infection etc). another such 'rage' but on a smaller scale. Cheers, Christina Paul "Evaluate things and opportunities as you encounter them; don't be afraid, listen to the voices and act on them." "Believe in your culture, be confident, and attend to community" - Jhon Goes in Center - Lakota http://www.netins.net/showcase/ankh ICQ # 4699385 ============================================================================== From: Michael Tilgner To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: AEL First hieroglyphs (was: AEL Chronology Confusion) Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 23:03:36 +0200 Stephen Fryer wrote: >>Abu Elisha wrote: > > > >> And what do we know about the beginning dates of Hieroglyphic script? > > > >As far as I know, the earliest evidence for hieroglyphic writing is Late >Predynastic, perhaps 3400BCE or later. (_Early Egypt_, A.J. Spencer, is a recent >survey of the origins of Egyptian culture and state the mentions this) > As I was in Paris over the last weekend to visit the new Egyptian department of the Louvre and some other exhibitions I could not write this posting earlier. In fact, the beginning of the hieroglyphic writing system is as fascinating as its end. Until recently the first known hieroglyphs were those reported by Guenther Dreyer, "Umm el-Qaab - Nachuntersuchungen im fruehzeitlichen Koenigsfriedhof - 3./4. Vorbericht", Mitteilungen des Deutschen Archaeologischen Instituts Abteilung Kairo [MDAIK], Vol. 46, 53-90 (1990). He described the new excavations in the cemetery U in Umm el-Qaab near Abydos. The tomb U-s (pp. 57/58) contained among other items 4 fragments of vases with wavy ledge-handles with inscriptions (see also fig. 3a-d, p. 59): a) 2 x srx (Gardiner O33) and two vertical lines below it (tA.wi?) (fig. 3a-b) b) 2 x Gardiner W10 over N24 (fig. 3c-d) He dated the tomb U-s to the period Naqada IIIa2 - IIIb1 (p. 62). In the meantime the digging continued and he published a new report - same title as above, "... - 5./6. Vorbericht", MDAIK, Vol. 49, pp. 23-62 (1993). A tomb called U-j, consisting of 12 rooms with a lot items was found, including some 125 (+ 30 nearby) small tablets (labels) made of bone with numbers and 1-4 hieroglyphic signs resp., partly with some black ink still in them (pp. 34/35). It is obvious for Dreyer that an important ruler was lying here. As a scorpion was found very often he proposed that this is the name of the king, but that he should not be confused with the king of the same name, owner of the famous mace-head from Hierakonpolis. Therefore he called him Scorpion I (p. 65). Figs. 7c-f (p. 37) show numbers, indicating probably the sizes of clothes; 7g may be S-Hr the name of the residence of the king, 7h is a name of an administration unit, also known from later times, 7i Basta and 7j Buto. These toponyms may indicate the provenance of goods. This tomb is dated to Naqada IIIa2 (p. 35). Even more important is the dating of two wooden items of the Tomb of U-j by the C14-method (Rainer M. Boehmer, Guenter Dreyer, Bernd Kromer, "Einige fruehzeitliche 14C-Datierungen aus Abydos und Uruk", MDAIK, Vol. 49, pp. 63-68 (1993)). After discussing the details of calibration the authors think that a date of 3320 BC for the tomb would be the best fit of the data. A summary of other findings is given by A. J. Spencer, "Early Egypt", London, 1993, pp. 73-76. Fig. 51 is the tomb of U-j as described above. Also on this topic: Kathryn A. Bard, "Origins of Egyptian Writing", in: R. Friedman/B. Adams (eds.), "The Followers of Horus - Studies dedicated to Michael Allen Hoffman, 1944-1990", 1992, pp. 297-306. If you don't have access to MDAIK you may find figs. 7g and 7i in the article: Nicholas Postgate, Tao Wang, Toby Wilkinson, "The evidence for early writing: utilitarian or ceremonial?", Antiquity, Vol. 69, 459-480 (1995). It includes also some other interesting stuff as indicated by the title. Michael Tilgner mtilgner@baan.nl ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 23:21:13 +0100 From: rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr (Serge Rosmorduc) To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL Chronology Confusion Answer to a few questions: The initial "L" is the greek way of stating the year : 5. Use of greek words and notations is very frequent in coptic; it is interesting to find it in such an early example. The 'g' in urgonafor/Hor-oun-nefer is really there. Note that the english "w" corresponds to a 'g' in french, which gives an example of a similar phenomenon. Now, I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment much on this. Except that our pronunciation of greek is also rather artificial regards, Serge ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 20:19:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Chronology Confusion Dear Serge, > The 'g' in urgonafor/Hor-oun-nefer is really there. Note that the english > "w" corresponds to a 'g' in french, which gives an example of a similar phenomenon. > Now, I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment much on this. Except that our > pronunciation of greek is also rather artificial Yes, it is not surprising in the least. Many languages have correpondence between /g/ and /w/. Ancient Greek also at one time possessed a grapheme known as "digamma", which represented the /w/ sound, and looked much like a capital Latin {F}. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 11:53:11 +1100 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: Re: AEL First hieroglyphs (was: AEL Chronology Confusion) M. Tilgner wrote: > After discussing the details of calibration the authors think that a date of > 3320 BC for the tomb would be the best fit of the data. So, how does this compare with the earliest cuneiform writing? Must make it a very close race... Regards, Mike D-S Melbourne ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 25 May 1998 20:14:04 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Chronology Confusion Serge Rosmorduc wrote: > The 'g' in urgonafor/Hor-oun-nefer is really there. Note that the english > "w" corresponds to a 'g' in french, which gives an example of a similar phenomenon. > Now, I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment much on this. Except that our > pronunciation of greek is also rather artificial I was wondering whether the "g" was in fact a "digamma" - the letter used in archaic Greek to represent the "w" sound, as in wanax ( >anax, "king") and woinos ( >oinos, "wine"). A digamma looked rather like our capital F. I don't remmber whether it was preserved in some of the dialects into the Hellenistic era - but I don't feel like joing Classics-L just to find out! (BTW, the correspondence between French g and English w only works for words that originally had a gw sound - French kept the g part, English kept the w part. Not quite the phenomenon you thought.) -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 10:44:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL First hieroglyphs (was: AEL Chronology Confusion) Dear Mike, > > After discussing the details of calibration the authors think that a date of > > 3320 BC for the tomb would be the best fit of the data. > > So, how does this compare with the earliest cuneiform writing? Must make > it a very close race... Actually, it puts hieroglyphs earlier, because at this period, we only have clay tokens, which is a pre-writing notational device coming from mesopotamia and Susa. The hieroglyphs found in Tomb Uj, while not long passages of text, are actually developed hieroglyphs written onto an object rather than scratchings denoting number. The dating of tokens is however also rather shaky, so it is possible that evidence still may be found to prove that Sumerian or Elamite pictograms developed earlier than these hieroglyphs, but for the moment the picture looks to me at least as if the Egyptians had a more advanced stage of writing simultaneously to the proto-writing of the Mesopotamian region. The person to ask about this, however, might be Peter Daniels, who is on the ANE List. He is an expert in writing systems and makes a point of staying on top of all these issues. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL AW: AEL Shipwrecked Sailor Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 20:14:31 +-200 Stephen wrote: >I have (finally!) finished the parallel transcription into hieroglyphics of the Story of the Shipwrecked Sailor from pLeningrad 1115. Each page of the original hieratic has a parallel page of hieroglyphic text in which the lines/columns and sign groupings match those in the original. This may be of value to those working on learning hieratic, or to those who need access to the text of this story. **This greenhorn thought of starting trying to work on the SS, so I took Brunner (An Outline of ME Grammar) who has the hieroglyphs and started with line one....Huhh?? So notice with me that Brunner gives the text in a wrong order. He starts with line 21b. And likely the columns (he renumbers every time) are arranged differently for the rest of the transcription as well. Odd. I did have the correct transcription text with continuous line numbering though (Borghouts, he includes the red markings). So now I had done what proved to be lines 21(b)-27(a) :-/ which I transcribe as: sDd=j r=f n=k mj.t.t jr.y xpr m-'=j Ds=j Sm.kwj r bj3 n it.y h3(i).kwj r w3D-wr m dp.t n.t mH 120 m 3w=s mH 40 m sxw=s and translate - nicely literally! :), I prefer that - as: "I'll recount (something) concerning this to you, (namely about) the like thereof happening to me myself: I had set out to (the) Mining-Region of (the) Sovereign; I had descended to (the) Great Green (Sea) in (a) ship which (had) 120 cubits in its lenght (and) 40 in its breadth." Correct? The ending .kwj/.kw/.kj is the old Pseudoparticiple, denoting a state or acertainment. Anyone wants to tell us about it? The first line is clear in meaning but a bit akward to translate. Lichtheim has "I shall tell you something like it that happened to me". Is there any taste for doing the tale? One sentence per week? :) It's a typical beginners' piece I've understood. line 1-3a Dd.jn Sms.w jqr wD3 jb=k H3t.j-' m=k pH.n=n Xnw = "Said by (this) thrustworthy follower: Refresh your heart, prince - Look!, we have reached home!" or: "Thereupon this excellent follower said: May your heart be well, O prince - Behold, we have herewith reached (the) Abode (= home land)!". Best wishes, Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 20:18:43 +0000 Subject: AEL Hieroglyphic translation question Forwarded on behalf of the undersigned who is now a member of the list. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Hi all, recently I started with hieroglyphs, so you can say i'm new to the topic. At the moment I try to translate a text in to hierglyps and encounter the following problem: I need to translate: "beautiful gift" I know ther are a lot of hierglyphs for translating this, but let's say: - beautiful = Spss - gift = Aw.t How must this be translated? (characters between brackets represent 1 hieroglyph) like: [Sps] [s] [Aw] [t] or : [S] [p] [s] [s] [A] [w] [t] or is it the same? Is there a (general) rule for this? your help would be much appriciated! kind regards, Marc van Kollenburg m.v.kollenburg@kbi.nl ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 18:47:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL AW: AEL Shipwrecked Sailor Yes, Aayko, I think this is an ideal text for the AEL. This was the first real text that I ever read in my first year Egyptian class, and I know it to be an excellent place to begin. I think you have done a fine job of translating the lines you did. I will offer my translation too, so you can see that we have pretty much the same interpretation. > sDd=j r=f n=k mj.t.t jr.y xpr m-'=j Ds=j Sm.kwj r bj3 n it.y Indeed, I shall recount to you a pertinent (jr.y) semblance (mj.ty.t) which happened to me myself. I had gone to the mine-land of the Sovereign. > h3(i).kwj r w3D-wr m dp.t n.t mH 120 m 3w=s mH 40 m sxw=s I was returning on the sea in a boat of 120 cubits in its lenght and 40 cubits in its width. > "I'll recount (something) concerning this to you, (namely about) > the like thereof happening to me myself: > I had set out to (the) Mining-Region of (the) Sovereign; I had > descended to (the) Great Green (Sea) in (a) ship which (had) 120 cubits > in its lenght (and) 40 in its breadth." > Correct? Yes, very good. I would translate h3j as "return", however, because it is the typical verb used for coming back at the end of an expedition. > The ending .kwj/.kw/.kj is the old Pseudoparticiple, denoting a state > or acertainment. Anyone wants to tell us about it? As most of you know, the past tense is often expressed by the sDm.n=f for many verbs, but for verbs of motion, like "go" and "return", if one used the sDm.n=f one would have a second tense, in which the emphasis was placed on the last adverbial element in the sentence. Therefore, the usual past tense of verbs of motion was the stative (Old Perfective). This is analogous to many European languages, wherein the helping verb associated with verbs of motion is a form of the verb to "be" rather than the verb to "have". Notice that in French, for instance, one says: "il est alle'" with "est" instead of "ha". This is analogous to the effect of using the Old Perfective/Stative in ancient Egyptian. jj.kw is like saying (literally) "I am come", just as was normal in an older stage of English, in stead of "I have come", which is more analogous with jj.n=j, although English does not have the added connotation of emphasis of the adverbial adjunct which was present in Egyptian. In a narrative case like this story, however, you might say, "I had come" or "I was coming" depending on the context. For me it made perfect sense to use the pluperfect for Smj.kw and a past imperfect for h3j.kw because the context seems to call for it. > The first line is clear in meaning but a bit akward to translate. > Lichtheim has > "I shall tell you something like it that happened to me". Lichtheim is actually very good on this line. It gets accross the meaning of mj.t.y.t "likeness/similar thing" nicely. I was struggling for a word when I selected "semblance", and I think Lichtheim's wording is actually far superior to that. ;-P > Is there any taste for doing the tale? One sentence per week? :) > It's a typical beginners' piece I've understood. I should hope so. With Stephen's new site all prepared, I see no reason why we should not do it. > line 1-3a > Dd.jn Sms.w jqr wD3 jb=k H3t.j-' m=k pH.n=n Xnw Then the skilled courtier said, "may your heart be well, Mayor! Look, we have arrived home!" > "Said by (this) thrustworthy follower: > Refresh your heart, prince - Look!, we have reached home!" > or: > "Thereupon this excellent follower said: > May your heart be well, O prince - Behold, we have > herewith reached (the) Abode (= home land)!". Yes, we have a few different lexical interpretations, but basically the same meaning. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 18:50:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Hieroglyphic translation question Dear Mr. von Kollenburg, You said: > I need to translate: "beautiful gift" 3w.t nfr.t {3w}{t}{bookrole}{nfr}{r}{t} Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 15:42:39 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Hieroglyphic translation question > At the moment I try to translate a text in to hierglyps > and encounter the following problem: > > I need to translate: "beautiful gift" > > I know ther are a lot of hierglyphs for translating this, > but let's say: > - beautiful = Spss > - gift = Aw.t > > How must this be translated? > (characters between brackets represent 1 hieroglyph) > > like: [Sps] [s] [Aw] [t] > > or : [S] [p] [s] [s] [A] [w] [t] > or is it the same? > > Is there a (general) rule for this? > Marc van Kollenburg Well the first general rule is that the adjective must follow the noun: Aw.t Sps. The second is that the adjective agrees in gender and number with the noun, so that we must have (since Aw.t is feminine): Aw.t Sps.t The Egyptian scribes, while not totally consistent, had a specific way of spelling most words - not necessarily what seems the most logical, but traditional, like English spelling. Thjis spelling usually involved one or more "determiatives" which are supposed to indicate the semantic classification of the word. The best thing is to take the spelling from a dictionary or vocabulary list. If we do that we get: Aw t w Y1 Sps s t Y1 The "Y1" is the standard Gardiner number referring to the "scroll" determinative (abstract things). However, Sps is not a word I would translate as "beautiful" - more like "expensive," "noble," etc. More usually it would be "nfr" (spelled nfr f:r - the colon indicates the f is above the r). -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 16:34:00 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL AW: AEL Shipwrecked Sailor Aayko Eyma wrote: Well Aayko, you certainly sent lots to have to respond to! > **This greenhorn thought of starting trying to work on the SS, so > I took Brunner (An Outline of ME Grammar) who has the hieroglyphs > and started with line one....Huhh?? > So notice with me that Brunner gives the text in a wrong order. > He starts with line 21b. And likely the columns (he renumbers > every time) are arranged differently for the rest of the transcription > as well. Odd. > I did have the correct transcription text with continuous > line numbering though (Borghouts, he includes the red markings). I wasn't aware of rubrication. Could you expand on this? In the black and white photos I didn't see any of the usual indications that some parts were in red. > So now I had done what proved to be lines 21(b)-27(a) :-/ > which I transcribe as: > > sDd=j r=f n=k mj.t.t jr.y xpr m-'=j Ds=j Sm.kwj r bj3 n it.y > > h3(i).kwj r w3D-wr m dp.t n.t mH 120 m 3w=s mH 40 m sxw=s The transliteration is great! > "I'll recount (something) concerning this to you, (namely about) > the like thereof happening to me myself: > I had set out to (the) Mining-Region of (the) Sovereign; I had > descended to (the) Great Green (Sea) in (a) ship which (had) 120 cubits > in its lenght (and) 40 in its breadth." > > Correct? Well, not bad. My comments: sDd=i at the beginning of a sentence is, as you are aware, Prospective, however that doesn't mean future - treat it more like a subjunctive (it is a "modal" verb form), so translate like "Let me tell..." rf is a particle of rather vague meaning, usually translated as "now" or "however" or some other innoccuous word, or left out entirely. You could try translating sDd=i rf as "Now, let me tell..." or "Well, let me tell..." mit.t iry is an expression that crops up several times in this story (and the word mit.t even more often). The word mi is a preposition meaning "like" or "similar to", and mit.t is a noun derived from it meaning "the like" or "something similar". The word iry means simply "to it". So mit.t iry is "something similar to it" Oops, I just noticed you should have xpr.n (you forgot the n) - past tense "which happened" m a=i Ds=i is sort of emphatic way of saying "to me". If you want it more literally "in my own arms" > The ending .kwj/.kw/.kj is the old Pseudoparticiple, denoting a state > or acertainment. Anyone wants to tell us about it? Verbs of motion use this form in the past tense - it is always Sm=kw, never Sm.n=i. The same goes for hA=kw. Both of these are stuck at the beginning of their clauses, so they are not to be treated as initial main clauses. I would treat them as "when I went ... having gone..." n iti - I might take this as perhaps "for the Sovereign" or "on behalf of the Sovereign" I wonder if hA n wAD-wr (literally "go down to the sea") could be taken to mean "set sail." All just technical details to tighten things up a bit. > Is there any taste for doing the tale? One sentence per week? :) > It's a typical beginners' piece I've understood. This story is often used because there are not very many difficult or obscure passages, there isn't any very flowery rhetoric, and it is about as "pure" Middle Egyptian as you are likely to find. Westcar has a number of features that show the creeping influence of the vernacular that later became enshrined as Late Egyptian. And, as you have seen already here, even if you don't pick up all the grammatical details, the meaning is generally fairly easy to follow. > > line 1-3a > Dd.jn Sms.w jqr wD3 jb=k H3t.j-' m=k pH.n=n Xnw > > = > > "Said by (this) thrustworthy follower: > Refresh your heart, prince - Look!, we have reached home!" > or: > "Thereupon this excellent follower said: > May your heart be well, O prince - Behold, we have > herewith reached (the) Abode (= home land)!". Two comments: Dd.in=f is a past tense form which implies continuation from something else (I tend to think of it as being similar in meaning to the Hebrew waw-consecutive) - "And he said". Whether there is an implication that something had preceded this in the story, I'm not sure. Perhaps the story teller wanted to give the feeling that something had happened previously, but wasn't going to elaborate. Any thoughts on this? The word Xnw occurs very frequently in this story (10 times by my count -almost 1% of the words in the story!), always in contexts where we would be likely to use the word "home" in English. So just translate it as "home" -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 13:07:07 +0200 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL AW: AEL Shipwrecked Sailor (There are a few important lines before this, which describe the setting : The sailor and his chief are coming back from a failed expedition, and the sailor tries to explain that it's not that grevious :) Aayko Eyma 'ecrit : > > > sDd=j r=f n=k mj.t.t jr.y xpr m-'=j Ds=j Sm.kwj r bj3 n it.y > > h3(i).kwj r w3D-wr m dp.t n.t mH 120 m 3w=s mH 40 m sxw=s > > "I'll recount (something) concerning this to you, (namely about) more "I want *then* to tell you". "r=f" is unlikely to mean "about it", because : a) in middle egyptian, it would be r=s (but then we have "xpr m-a=i" and not "xprt m-a=i") b) because in this case, it would go at the end of the sentence, not before 'n=k" > the like thereof happening to me myself: > I had set out to (the) Mining-Region of (the) Sovereign; I had > descended to (the) Great Green (Sea) in (a) ship which (had) 120 cubits > in its lenght (and) 40 in its breadth." > > Correct? > The ending .kwj/.kw/.kj is the old Pseudoparticiple, denoting a state 'the old perfective' or the 'Pseudoparticiple' :-) Your translation is possible, but it would be the "narrative" value of stp=kwi we met in Weni, and which does survive in autobiography. A more normal rendering would be to suppose this form has here its circumstantial value : 'the like thereof happening to me myself, as I had set out to (the) Mining-Region of (the) Sovereign ... regards, -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) IUT de Montreuil 140 rue de la Nouvelle France 93100 Montreuil FRANCE tel 01 48 70 37 09 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 22:51:15 +1000 To: Ancient Egyptian Language , "Egyptologist's Electronic Forum" From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Aleph: a glide or glottal stop? I have just been reading an article by Chris Reintges (Lingua Aegyptia (1994) 4:213-244) entitled: 'Egyptian root-and-pattern morphology'. In section 1.2, 'Egyptian Aleph' he discusses the phonological value of the egyptian vulture-A sign. He uses Coptic evidence and arguments based on common phonological processes (eg. 'dipthongisation') to derive a value for the Aleph in Middle Egyptian as..... a glottal stop! While I know there has been some debate about whether it was a glottal stop or a liquid (r, l), I thought the matter had been fairly well resolved in favour of latter, and that the discussion had now narrowed to whether it was an 'r' or an 'l'. James Hoch and Antonio Loprieno come to mind here as active participants in this arena. They both cite examples of correspondences in egyptian and afroasiatic words where the aleph in egyptian seems to be equivalent to 'r' or 'l' in the other language (eg. Egyptian kAm = Afroasiatic krm, meaning 'garden'). Reintges argues that this sort of analysis is too simplistic, and that a simple one-to-one correspondence in sounds may not be present. He thinks it is a many-to-one relationship, with afroasiatic /r l/ corresponding to egyptian r, ? or '. He goes on to propose that, "the afroasiatic proto-morpheme is analysed as a complex segment, with /r/ as the primary and /?/ and /'/ as the secondary articulators, which became the primary ones in the course of debuccalisation. Geoffrey Graham has mentioned to me that he has seen a paper by Osing also comes to the conclusion that the aleph is a glottal stop. If this is accepted, then we seem to have come full circle ! Can anyone offer a view as to how these arguments stand up in the general egyptological community. Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne ************************************* Mike Dyall-Smith, Ph.D. Department of Microbiology and Immunology, University of Melbourne, 3052 Australia Tel: +(613) 9344-5693 Fax: +(613) 9347-1540 e-m: m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au web: www.microbiol.unimelb.edu.au/mds/ ************************************* ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 23:31:47 +1000 To: Ancient Egyptian Language From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Weni line 5 While lesson 5 of Gardiner is 'cooking', I thought I would start again on Weni. I noticed Mark Vygus received no comments for some of his translations: Line 5: dbH=ki m-a Hm n.i nb=i ini.ti n(=i) qrs.w-inr-HD m rA-Aw rDi Hm=f DAi xtm.w-nTr Hna TAz.t [Mark Vygus, 28/2/98; AEL Weni P1/L5-8a] I begged the majesty of my lord (to have) brought to (me) a sarcophagus of white stone from Tura His majesty caused the seal-bearer of the god to cross over together with a company ... dbH=ki, stative/old perfective with 1st person sing. suffix. Is begging considered a verb of motion? m-a, a compound preposition, is not translated. Lit. 'in the hand', but could have the meaning 'from', so I suppose here it could be 'I begged from the majesty....", which in english could probably be left out, as Mark has done. ini.ti, the prospective verb form. The initial verb of the sentence, to beg, would normally take a two component object (probably not the right jargon here). You beg someone for something. So is nominal clause that begins with the prospective (a nominal form of the verb) a secondary object to the initial verb? In current linguistic phrase structured grammar, how would you 'tree' this sentence? rDi, is this the old indicative? DAi, is the prospective, used as the object of the verb rDi (section 75, Hoch). comments please. Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne ============================================================================== From: Michael Tilgner To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: AEL First hieroglyphic sentence (long) Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 11:31:47 +0200 When I found the last hieroglyphic inscription of AD 394 (see my earlier posting) I wonder whether there is something like a first "meaningful text". Please, don't discuss the meaning of "meaningful text". For me it is: a complete sentence according to Egyptian grammar, which is not a (personal or other) name [names could be sometimes read as a sentence]. For solving this question, I looked - also - into this book: Jochem Kahl, "Das System der aegyptischen Hieroglyphenschrift in der 0. - 3. Dynastie", Wiesbaden, 1994. It discusses the origin and development of the hieroglyphic writing system in a very systematic manner. Let's start with the appendices. The first appendix compiles all known hieroglyphic inscriptions of this period: Kahl lists 3859 inscriptions and their sources (publications). 3374 of them are "dated", meaning that they can be attributed to the reign of a king. The rest - 485 - belong somehow to this period, but it cannot be said to which king or dynasty. (In a second appendix a list of all signs of this period followed with a reference to the source(s), including the first one.) Kahl analyzed in a lengthy introduction of 167 pp. the development of the graphical peculiarities of the early hieroglyphic writing system. In a chapter about word recognition he noted (p. 139) that "the context of a sentence plays only a minor role in the 0.-3. dynasty, as most inscriptions contain only words, but no sentences" and he added in a footnote that the earliest known sentence is from Peribsen, source no. 2902! Peribsen is a king of the 2nd dynasty, ruling about 2700 BC. It took over 600 years from the first hieroglyphic signs (ca. 3300 BC) to the first sentence! This inscription is a reconstructed seal and published in: Peter Kaplony, "Die Inschriften der aegyptischen Fruehzeit", Vol. III, Wiesbaden, 1963 (Aegyptologische Abhandlungen, Vol. 8), fig. 368 on pl. 95. Kaplony's translation is in Vol. II, p. 1143. The original sealings are reproduced in: Edouard Naville, "The cemeteries of Abydos, Part I 1909-1910 - The mixed cemetery and Umm el-Ga'ab", London, 1914 [33rd memoir of the Egypt Exploration Society], pl. XI. The inscription consists of six columns read from left to right. The WinGlyph format follows: s\110*U29\110 x*t nb ! n-b-t S12 ! n-i*b ..\25 S12 ! d-D-n-f\120 ! N17-N17 n G39-f ! M23*L2 t\60*t\60 (pr\60:ib\80)*s-n Please use the following WinGlyph options: Left to right Columns without lines Height of lines (=columns): 0.75 Distance between lines (=columns): 0.20 I use some scaling factors to approximate the seal's appearance. Transcription (by Kahl): sDA.wti ix.t nb.t nb[w].t nbw.i d[m]D.n=f n sA=f nsw-bit pr ib=sn Translation (by Kahl): "Seal-bearer of all golden things; Nbwi ['the Golden One', a god], he united the Two Countries for his son, the King of Upper and Lower Egypt Peribsen." Formerly dD.n=f was translated as "he gave over" as sDm.n=f of di "to give", but Kahl believes that this a defective writing of dmD "to unite". Later we often find rmT.w "people" also with a missing m, even for Old Kingdom texts. What about Nbwi? Is it possible to read ni b[w] nbw "he, who belongs to the golden place"? It is known from other seals that Peribsen replaced Horus by Seth in his titulary, where a seth-animal instead of Horus is over his name in a serekh. Seth was the principal god of Ombos (Egyptian nbwt the gold-city). Can anybody comment on this? Anyhow, this first sentence has two statements: (1) A god united the Two Countries. (2) Peribsen was King of Upper and Lower Egypt. Both statements are supporting each other. On the other hand, it is now common opinion of the egyptologists that Peribsen ruled only in the South due to archeological evidence. Wolfgang Helck, Untersuchungen zur Thinitenzeit, Wiesbaden, 1987, p. 200 commented "this [sentence] may be understood as an intention". Here we have a situation of indirect reasoning vs. a contemporary statement. As we know, not all statements on temple walls or stelae can be taken at face value. But, however, my doubts on the current state of discussion remain. Anyhow again, this first sentence is about - the relationship between god and man, or better: god and king and - the unification of the country, topics which will govern Egypt over thousands of years! In the beginning there is a strong god acting for the king. And in the end a god should only speak ("words to speak by Mandulis: ---"), but he can't. These two sentences are the brackets of Egyptian civilization. Hope you enjoy my rather long posting! Michael Tilgner mtilgner@baan.nl ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 10:06:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL AW: AEL Shipwrecked Sailor Dear Stephen, Thank you very much for all your insightful explanations. > sDd=i at the beginning of a sentence is, as you are aware, Prospective, > however that doesn't mean future - treat it more like a subjunctive (it is a > "modal" verb form), so translate like "Let me tell..." Yes, I like this better. > rf is a particle of rather vague meaning, usually translated as "now" or > "however" or some other innoccuous word, or left out entirely. You could try > translating sDd=i rf as "Now, let me tell..." or "Well, let me tell..." It is probably so. rf refers to some earlier thought, although it does not necessarily agree in gender and number, because, like mk, it became frozen. In good Old Egyptian you will find rj, rk, rT, rf, etc... used in the same way, more as enclitic particles than literal prepositions with pronoun endings. It just connects a sentence with what came before, and is often best left out in English, although sometimes we can find nice ways of translating it, and I like your "now" better than my "indeed", to tell you the truth, because this IS the way we might connect such a sentence with what came before in a narrative story. > mit.t iry is an expression that crops up several times in this story (and the > word mit.t even more often). The word mi is a preposition meaning "like" or > "similar to", and mit.t is a noun derived from it meaning "the like" or > "something similar". The word iry means simply "to it". So mit.t iry is > "something similar to it" Yes. I have also noticed that although jr.y exists side by side with jr.y.t, jr.y.w, and jr.y.w.t, often it is frozen in this masculine singular form. Note that in the name of Nefertari, nfr.t-jr.y mrj.y.t-mw.t, the masculine singular occurs. And, here in this sentence too, jr.y is masculine singular even though it seems to refer to mj.t.y.t. Perhaps it does not actually refer back like an adjective, but also to some undefined antecedent, or maybe it is simply a noun. What do you think of that? I guess you must agree with that, judging by how you have translated it. Then, it must be a nominalized nisbah-adjective. > n iti - I might take this as perhaps "for the Sovereign" or "on behalf of the > Sovereign" Yes, much better than my interpretation! > I wonder if hA n wAD-wr (literally "go down to the sea") could be taken to > mean "set sail." It is possible, but as I said before, h3j is almost always used as the verb to "return" in texts about expeditions. > > line 1-3a > > Dd.jn Sms.w jqr wD3 jb=k H3t.j-' m=k pH.n=n Xnw > > > > "Said by (this) thrustworthy follower: > > Refresh your heart, prince - Look!, we have reached home!" > > or: > > "Thereupon this excellent follower said: > > May your heart be well, O prince - Behold, we have > > herewith reached (the) Abode (= home land)!". > > Two comments: > > Dd.in=f is a past tense form which implies continuation from something else (I > tend to think of it as being similar in meaning to the Hebrew waw-consecutive) > - "And he said". Whether there is an implication that something had preceded > this in the story, I'm not sure. Perhaps the story teller wanted to give the > feeling that something had happened previously, but wasn't going to > elaborate. Any thoughts on this? Yes, I was also tempted to point this out, however, you will note that he did actually translate it that way the second time around. > The word Xnw occurs very frequently in this story (10 times by my count > -almost 1% of the words in the story!), always in contexts where we would be > likely to use the word "home" in English. So just translate it as "home" yes, and in most respects this is what the word meant. The term used as "Residence" only refers to the "_Royal_ home", and the term as "interior", is just an extension of the same concept, one that was perhaps not entirely distinct for the Egyptians. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 00:28:51 +1000 To: Ancient Egyptian Language From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Weni L6 Weni LINE 6 --------------------------------------- n.i.t apr-aHa.w Xr.i a=f ir ini.t n(=i) qrs.w pn m rA-Aw ii.n=f m-a=f m sAT aAi n.i Xnw Hna aA=f [Mark Vygus, 28/2/98; AEL Weni P1/L5-8a] ... of sailors under his command in order to bring to (me) this sarcophagus from Tura it arrived with him in a great barge of the court together with its lid, ... ---------------------------------------- Some thoughts: ir ini.t, I take this as the infinitive of the verb ini, as shown by the 't' ending and the construction preposition+infinitive. The preceding preposition 'ir' (later just 'r'), meaning 'to, towards, in order to'. Now, it looks like it could also be a preposition followed by the prospective form of ini, which also has a .t ending and can be preceded by a preposition (Hoch, section 75,2). But then it would have to be a passive ini(t)tw, which I suppose it could still be given that the 'w' is not likely to be written. Can someone show me which is the more likely form here? ii.n=f, tricky..., after some hunting around in my books, I take it as a second-tense verb form. The only past tense sDm.n=f form for a verb of motion. It would otherwise be a stative. Loprieno describes this as "a topicalized VP in initial position (always with verbs of motion)" [p77 of 'Ancient Egyptian']. Comments please Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith Melbourne ============================================================================== From: "Mark Wilson" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 18:23:32 +0000 Subject: AEL Administrative A few changes have been made to the AEL list rules over the last couple of days. These changes take effect immediately and remaining subscribed to AEL after receiving this message constitutes your acceptance of the new rules. Please take a couple of minutes to read through the rest of this message. If you have subscribed to the list over the last 48 hours, please accept my apologies for the duplication. From now on I'll be posting the rules to the list about once ever 3 months. 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Remaining subscribed to the list or posting to it after receipt of this copy of the Book of Coming Forth by Email indicates acceptance of the conditions given herein. The list owner's interpretation of the rules will apply. Remember, persistent or egregious infringement of the rules WILL result in you being removed from the list. -- Mark Wilson weneg@rostau.demon.co.uk http://www.rostau.demon.co.uk/AEgyptian-L/index.html ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: "AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk" Subject: AEL AW: AEL Chronology Confusion Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 19:40:34 +-200 Dear Serge, >The initial "L" is the greek way of stating the year : 5. Use of greek words and notations is very frequent in coptic; it is interesting to find it in such an early example. ***Yes, I'd deduced it designated "(year) 5". But my question was: according to what system. In Greek, the letter la(m)bda stood for 30, not 5. So it is AFAIK not "the greek way", at least not in normal use of numerals. There seem to have been a special year numbering, either Greek or Egyptian where L stood for year 5. Does anyone know about this? Likely more a Classics-L question too, did you subscribe Stephen? :). Hmm, I could ask on Ancient-L. Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 18:07:31 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Weni line 5 Mike Dyall-Smith wrote: > dbH=ki, stative/old perfective with 1st person sing. suffix. Is begging > considered a verb of motion? While this is not a direct response to this question, it seems like a reasonable point for a comment. I haven't had time to follow the discussion on the Weni inscription in detail so far, but one thing I noticed in glancing at some of the messages - discussion of verb forms involved the terms, etc. that we know from Middle Egyptian. However, this is not Middle Egyptian, so categories and interpretations based on Middle Egyptian may not apply here. The "Old Perfective" may be a case in point - that it was not used the same way. I would appreciate some clarifications on this point - especially since there is no such thing as a textbook of Old Egyptian (at least that I have heard of), let alone one that us peasants could get our hands on. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== From: To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 27 May 1998 12:43:50 +0200 Subject: Re: AEL Hieroglyphic translation question Thanks Stephen and Graham for your reply. As you all probably noticed I've just started with Hieroglyphs (about 3 months) in my spare time. In my search for good literatrure about this topic I cannot find a good book for starters. The book I have is from J.F Borghouts (Dutch author) and is rather complex. If any one can advice me on a good starters book I would appreciate it very much! >From the internet I downloaded the Beinlich list (German) and some other listst in English. I'm busy translating these lists in Dutch and writing a program for searching this database. Stephen said: > The best thing is to take the spelling from a dictionary or vocabulary list. Can any one tell me where to get/buy such a list? preferably electronic. My next question is: Can some one tell me where I can find a good explanation to use/read/write the translitaration codes (aswell in this newsgroup as in the 'real world') from the Manuel de Codage? I only know roughly how it works. The reason I asked for the translation of 'beatiful gift' is: we (my wife and I) expecting our first child at the end of july. I'm designing the birth announcement card myself and wish to put this text, with the gender of the child as determinative (A1 for male and B1 for female), on the front of the card in a cartouche. With your information added to my knowlegde this would form: Aw t w Y1 nfr f:r t Y1 A1 for male Aw t w Y1 nfr f:r t Y1 B1 for female I know I asked a lot of questions and I would like to thank every one in advance for taking the time to help me understand this intriguing language. Marc van Kollenburg e-mail: m.v.kollenburg@kbi.nl ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 08:34:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Hieroglyphic translation question Dear Mr. Kollenburg, > As you all probably noticed I've just started with Hieroglyphs > (about 3 months) in my spare time. In my search for good literatrure > about this topic I cannot find a good book for starters. The book I > have is from J.F Borghouts (Dutch author) and is rather complex. > If any one can advice me on a good starters book I would appreciate > it very much! I am familiar with the Borghuts grammar of Late Egyptian which was not yet published at the time that I had access to a photocopy used in a class many years ago. Has this now been published? Perhaps you are refering to a different book, though, because this one was written in English. [snip] I don't have my books with me right now, so I am not hte right person to give references at the moment. > With your information added to my knowlegde this would form: > Aw t w Y1 nfr f:r t Y1 A1 for male > Aw t w Y1 nfr f:r t Y1 B1 for female Actually it would be 3w.t nfr.t in both cases, because the word for "gift" is feminine, ragardless of the gender of the child. Yours, Geoff Graham sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: AEL Shipwrecked Sailor Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 19:37:42 +-200 Dear Stephen, >I wasn't aware of rubrication. Could you expand on this? In the black and white photos I didn't see any of the usual indications that some parts were in red. Borghouts tells this about the document: - written in: vertical colums lines 1-123, then six pages with horizontal lines 124-176, and then again in vertical colums lines 177-189 - red ink is used to indicate when a writer with a word or phrase is starting a new section of his story. [cf. pPrisse] - there are no red dots to indicate stanzas/verses like in the Teachings of Merikare So in this case in red are written: (1) Dd.in Sms.w iqr (12) sDm r=k n=i etc. Borghouts underlines the red glyphs. As reference he gives: A. de Buck - Reading book but especially W. Golenischeff - Papyrus hieratiques (St. Petersburg 1913), plates I-VIII But I would think only black and white in 1913? Don't know where he saw them then. He does not discuss date (only MK) kind regards, Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 08:27:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Graham To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Weni line 5 Dear Stephen, > I would appreciate some clarifications on this point - especially since there > is no such thing as a textbook of Old Egyptian (at least that I have heard > of), let alone one that us peasants could get our hands on. I must admit to not having had the time to follow what is taking place on the Weni text, so I don't really know what the question was about, but I do know of an Old Egyptian textbook which has been around for some time. It is by Elmar Edel in two volumes. I am not near my books so I can't give you an exact reference, but I think it is called Altaegyptische Grammatik or something very close to that. Geoff sokar@minerva.cis.yale.edu ============================================================================== To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk From: "Leonid M. Kokun" Date: Thu, 28 May 98 20:14:22 +0300 Subject: AEL fenugreek > ***Borghouts 1993 has [my side-remarks]: ... > Xs3y.t = fenugrek, a plant species [ fenegreek = foenum greacum; > medicinal plant][Faulkner: "kind of spice(?)"] ... > Aayko Eyma Dear Listmembers, Several years ago I looked over a popular Bulgarian book on Egyptian medicine where fenugreek was mentioned as (the fruit of) the plant that corresponds to the Egyptian Hm3j.t The topic discussed was a prescription from Smith papyrus where Hm3j.t is the main ingredient; the prescription itself can be seen, for instance, in vol.4 of v.Deines & Grapow & Westendorf's "Grundriss der Medizin der alten Aegypter" at p.302 (Sm 21,9-22,10). That booklet being popular, there was no reference. Perhaps, anybody on the List could comment on which identification looks more valid ? Best regards Leo Kokun ============================================================================== From: Michael Tilgner To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: AEL AW: AEL Weni line 5 Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 21:59:21 +0200 Dear Stephen, dear Geoff, the textbook about Old Egyptian, the language of the time of the Old = Kingdom is Elmar Edel, "Altaegyptische Grammatik", Roma, 2 Vols., 1955/1964 = (Analecta Orientalia 34/39). It seems that this book is still available, as I noticed in the current edition of Italian books in print. The publisher is: Pontificio Istituto Biblio Piazza Pilotta, 35 00187 Roma ITALY The price was given as Lire 61,200 for each volume. There is also an index to the citations, but I haven't the = bibliographic information at hand. A specialized study on the grammar of the pyramid texts is C. E. Sander-Hansen, "Studien zur Grammatik der Pyramidentexte", = Copenhague, 1956 (Analecta Aegyptiaca, 6). You may order it from Otto Harassowitz P. O. Box 2929 D-65019 Wiesbaden GERMANY Order-Nr is +220-001-805+. Price: DM 40. There are other studies about the verbal system of Old Egyptian (J. P. Allen, E. Doret). Best regards, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@baan.nl ============================================================================== From: Michael Tilgner To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: AEL How the ancient Egyptians greet a newborn child Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 00:00:22 +0200 Marc van Kollenburg wrote: > The reason I asked for the translation of 'beatiful gift' is: we (my > wife and I) expecting our first child at the end of july. I'm > designing the birth announcement card myself and wish to put this > text, with the gender of the child as determinative (A1 for male and > B1 for female), on the front of the card in a cartouche. Hermann Grapow discussed how the ancient Egyptians greeted their newborn childs in "Wie die Alten Aegypter sich anredeten, wie sie sich gruessten und wie sie miteinander sprachen - II. Die Verwendung der Anreden", in: Abhandlungen der Preussischen Akademie der Wissenschaften, Phil.-hist. Klasse, 1940, Nr. 12, pp. 17-18 Examples: M18-w-n:O50*Z4A m Htp G39&t n:t X:t*Z1 N36:t <1-N5-C10A-D28-2> ii.wi n[=i] sp 2 m Htp sA.t[=i] n.t Xt[=i] mri.t MAat-kA-ra [Deir el-Bahri: Hathor brought the child to his divine father, who greeted Hatshepsut with] "Welcome, welcome, my beloved daughter of my body Maat-ka-Re!" Pyr. 820 nfr-f:r D:d-n G14-t:f w-a:F44 D:d-n i-t:f nfr Dd.n mwt=f iwa[w] Dd.n it=f "My beautiful one!" said his mother; "My heir!" said his father. (Faulkner) Pyr. 1450 nfr-r w T-w D:d-w G14-t:f i-a:F44-w-i D:d-w st-D4 nfr wi Tw Dd=w mwt=f iwa[w] wi Dd=w Wsir "How beautiful you are!" is what his mother says; "My heir!" is what Osiris says. (Faulkner) New Kingdom [RIH 29] p:a:n-A40 D:d-w G14-t:f nw*t:pt E9:a-w st-t:H8 D:d-w t:f-A40-f G38-b-A40 pan Dd=w mwt=f nwt iwaw Ast Dd=w it=f gb "Beautiful one!" is what his mother Nut says; "Heir of Isis!" is what his father Geb says. (Grapow) [Hannig, pan "intelligent, clever"; Grapow interpreted pan as synonym of nfr] Grapow summarized that these statements are certainly the old form to greet a newborn child. The mother says tenderly: "Beautiful one!" or "How beautiful you are!"; the father says proudly: "My heir!". Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@baan.nl ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 19:48:53 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Shipwrecked Sailor Aayko Eyma wrote: > Borghouts tells this about the document: > - red ink is used to indicate when a writer with a word or > phrase is starting a new section of his story. [cf. pPrisse] This is indeed a common practice in hieratic > - there are no red dots to indicate stanzas/verses like in the > Teachings of Merikare You can find colour photographs of Merikare (pCarlsberg 6) at http://dorit.ihi.ku.dk/cni/papcoll/ where there is use of rubrication, but I don't see the verse-points mentioned by Borghouts - possibly just the quality of the images? > So in this case in red are written: > (1) Dd.in Sms.w iqr > (12) sDm r=k n=i > etc. > Borghouts underlines the red glyphs. Could you be so kind as to list all of them for me? > A. de Buck - Reading book doesn't indicate rubrication (anywhere?) > W. Golenischeff - Papyrus hieratiques (St. Petersburg 1913), > plates I-VIII > But I would think only black and white in 1913? It is photocopies of the plates from this that I used to create the images on the web-site. The originals I'm sure were black&white, though it is frequently possible even so to spot rubrication because the red often came out as a grey colour. There are a couple of places in the pLeningrad 1115 that I thought might be rubrication, but I didn't notice them in other places in the text where I might have expected them, and so ignored the issue. The other possibility is that Borghouts had looked at the original papyrus. As you see - I live up to my motto! -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 20:15:19 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL First hieroglyphic sentence (long) Michael Tilgner wrote: > > When I found the last hieroglyphic inscription of AD 394 (see my earlier > posting) I wonder whether there is something like a first "meaningful text". > Please, don't discuss the meaning of "meaningful text". For me it is: a > complete sentence according to Egyptian grammar, which is not a (personal or > other) name [names could be sometimes read as a sentence]. This is indeed very interesting! Thank you Michael for sharing the results of you reading with us. I am glad that there are a few people on the list with access to such materials and are willing to tell the rest of us about them. > The inscription consists of six columns read from left to right. The > WinGlyph format follows: It was also much appreciated that you took the time to generate the WinGlyph codes and settings for us. It adds a great deal to be able to get some idea of what the original looked like. However, I don't think I'm going to argue about Kahl's interpretation! > It is known from other seals that Peribsen replaced Horus by > Seth in his titulary, where a seth-animal instead of Horus is over his name > in a serekh. Seth was the principal god of Ombos (Egyptian nbwt the > gold-city). Can anybody comment on this? Does this mean that the Set Peribsen is no longer identified with the Horus Sekhemib? -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 12:34:17 +0200 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Shipwrecked Sailor Oh, BTW, you can find a loadable version of the Shipwrecked Sailor in Manuel de codage format at : http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/hieroglyphes/naufrage.hie It follows the version of Blackman in "Middle Egyptian stories", Bibliotheca Aegyptiaca, and has the rubrics and all. regards, Serge Rosmorduc -- Serge Rosmorduc, (rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr) IUT de Montreuil 140 rue de la Nouvelle France 93100 Montreuil FRANCE tel 01 48 70 37 09 fax 01 48 70 86 49 http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/AEgypt.html ============================================================================== From: Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 08:23:15 EDT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL How the ancient Egyptians greet a newborn child In a message dated 98-05-29 03:35:00 EDT, you write: << Examples: M18-w-n:O50*Z4A m Htp G39&t n:t X:t*Z1 N36:t <1-N5-C10A-D28-2> ii.wi n[=i] sp 2 m Htp sA.t[=i] n.t Xt[=i] mri.t MAat-kA-ra [Deir el-Bahri: Hathor brought the child to his divine father, who greeted Hatshepsut with] "Welcome, welcome, my beloved daughter of my body Maat-ka-Re! >> Dear Michael--I certainly appreciate the examples of "how it was said" that you post from time to time. They are "keepers" for sure! Stephen Fryer--you are very helpful, too. Can you tell me what texts are in DeBuck's "Reading Book"? Marianne Luban ============================================================================== From: Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 13:17:22 EDT To: mtilgner@baan.nl, owner-AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk, AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Needed: A Thorough Workbook! Any writers out there? As a language teacher and novice Egyptologist, I am quickly becoming aware of the desperate need for supplementary material in the study of hieroglyphs. Stephen Fryer's "A Little Egyptian Reading Book" (internet) is a step in this direction, but much more basic stuff is needed. A well-formulated language text will devote 5-6 pages for drills/exercises/application for each 1-2 pages of explanation - preferably ~2 pages for each paragraph of instruction. The Foreign Service Institute texts are pretty good about this, since the government wants its employees to actually be able to use the language when they finish. Some linguists believe that a language-learner must use a word 70-100 times before he/she can be said to "know" the word, and the same is true with grammatical forms. As I'm sifting through lesson 3 of the Hoch, with 12 PAGES OF TECHNICAL DESCRIPTION (much of which I do not understand, and the examples are not particularly illuminating), followed by 2 pages of words to memorize and only slightly over 1 page of exercises, I'm thinking loudly, "This is not enough! I don't get it! How will I ever learn this?!" Okay, okay, I know. "Time on Task" will solve most of my woes. But seriously folks, the proportions are all wrong for learning a new language, especially one that I will probably never, ever speak. It should be 2 pages of text, 1-2 pages of vocabulary, and 6-10 pages of exercises to pound the info into my dense skull. Are any of you out there involved in writing such a workbook for non-geniuses such as myself? Perhaps Dr. Hoch has a supplementary volume in the making? Michael Akard Modesto, CA ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL AW: AEL Shipwrecked Sailor Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 19:24:01 +-200 ---------- > Borghouts underlines the red glyphs. Could you be so kind as to list all of them for me? ***I was afraid you would ask :)) If you have patient I'll get to it in the course of next week. It's a lot of transcribing. Aayko ============================================================================== From: Michael Tilgner To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: Re: AEL First hieroglyphic sentence (long) Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 21:12:30 +0200 Stephen Fryer wrote: > Michael Tilgner wrote: >> It is known from other seals that Peribsen replaced Horus by >> Seth in his titulary, where a seth-animal instead of Horus is over his name >> in a serekh. Seth was the principal god of Ombos (Egyptian nbwt the >> gold-city). Can anybody comment on this? > Does this mean that the Set Peribsen is no longer identified with the Horus > Sekhemib? Thomas Schneider, "Lexikon der Pharaonen", Zuerich, 1994, p. 195, entry "Peribsen", recounts the current discussion on that king of the 2nd dynasty: (1) P. is successor of Sekhemib (Lauer). (2) P. had as first name Horus Sekhemib-Perenmaat und called himself later P. as a reaction against the North (Drioton, Vandier, Wolf) (3) P. and Sekhemib are identical, both names were used during the same time (as Horus and Seth name); successor was Sened (Helck, Garnot) (4) Sekhemib was successor of P. and buried him (Helck, Grimal) (5) P. is son and successor of Sened (Grdseloff) (6) P. is identical with Sened (Gauthier, Wildung, Barta) Schneider writes that most probable is (1) the succession Ninetjer - Sened - P. - Khasekhemui and (2) that Sekhemib was an earlier Horus name of P. But the discussion is far from being over; the reasonings are all on shaky grounds. Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@baan.nl ============================================================================== From: Michael Tilgner To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: AEL Champollion Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 22:24:55 +0200 Dear Listmembers, if you ever come to Paris you should go to Pe`re Lachaise, a cemetery worth seeing, because many prominent people had been buried here. They used impressing gravestones, epitaphs, even small temples and pyramids. You will find the grave of Jean-Franc,ois Champollion (1790 - 1832), = who deciphered the hieroglyphs and founded the modern scientific = egyptology. Around the cemetery you can buy a map on which his tomb is marked. = After walking some 5-10 minutes you will find an obelisk, about 5 m high, = with the name CHAMPOLLION - Le Jeune. His name and the dates of his birth = and death are inscribed on the gravestone, barely readable. It seems that nobody cares about this place! This is in contrast to the ongoing interest in his publications, some = of them astonishingly cheap, if one judges from a walk through the bookshops of the boulevard St. Michel. For those bibliomaniacs loving reprints of old books (and have a little knowledge of French) the following selection may be of some value. J.-F. Champollion, "Lettre a` M. Dacier ...", Paris, 1822 [reprint], FF 84 The famous report in which Ch. explained his discoveries for the first time. --, "Panthe=B4on e=B4gyptienne ...", Paris, 1823-1831 [reprinted in = reduced size], FF 140 Ch. introduced the Egyptian gods and goddesses, each one with a colored plate and some descriptive notes. --, "Grammaire e=B4gyptienne ...", [reprinted in reduced size], Paris, 1836-1841, FF 158 Completely out-of-date and only of historical interest; with colored hieroglyphs. There are several biographies about Ch.; I would recommend Michel Dewachter, "Champollion, un scribe pour l'E=B4gypte", Paris, = 1990 (De=B4couvertes Gallimard No. 96), FF 73 Many color illustrations, glossy paper, pocketbook You can order all these books in the bookshop of the Louvre; they = accept VISA card. Boutiques des espaces commerciaux du Muse=B4e du Louvre 75058 Paris Cedex 01 FRANCE I do not know, whether the following book can also be ordered from the Louvre: --, "Monuments de l'E=B4gypte et de la Nubie", Paris, 1835-1845 = [reprint] Some 30 plates out of 446, "the most beautiful ones", with an introductory text by Jean Yoyotte, Paris, 1990. The plates are printed on heavy paper in original size - 37 x 49 cm - and are in a box. FF 980. Very beautiful! Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@baan.nl ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 20:55:02 -0400 From: James_Hoch@mail.campuslife.utoronto.ca (James Hoch) Subject: Re: AEL Needed: A Thorough Workbook! To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk I could not agree more that a workbook is essential. In my class, when I teach it, I always give tons of supplementary materials. These materials are more in the form of a "drill" exercise to reinforce, and to give practice with the basics. Indeed I would like to put this together as a workbook with a complete key (this releives the instructor's load, too, if it is being used in a classroom environment). The other purpose of a workbook would be to give less formal explanations or tips on how to read or make sense of word sequences, and memory aids--such things as instructors are expected to do in class. A formal grammar and a workbook have two complementary, but different functions. And the need for a workbook is all the greater in a language where there are so many individuals interested in self-instruction--or otherwise put, a language whose instructors are hard to come by apart from certain universities. In fact, I intend to write a companion workbook for my grammar. Alas, I still must first finish the text proper. It would not take too much time to take my drills and put them into the form of a workbook--in fact I intend that much of it be done in hand-writing, in order to introduce students to hand-written texts. It would also include practice writing of the hieroglyphs, etc. And practice reading right to left. That would be a bare-bones workbook. Additionally I would eventually like to add a whole series of verb charts--blank forms to be filled out by the learners--you remember it better if you do it yourself. It might have the targetted verbs listed, but the forms would all be blank. I have discussed the workbook with the publishers, and they are very keen on the idea. They would even go further and have suggested supplementary video documents--well, that's a bit down the road. Regards, James Hoch james_hoch@campuslife.utoronto.ca -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- CampusLife - University of Toronto http://www.campuslife.utoronto.ca ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ============================================================================== From: Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 21:03:29 EDT To: mtilgner@baan.nl, owner-AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk, AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: AEL Shipwrecked Sailor address? I attempted to find the downloadable Shipwrecked Sailor, and was told that no such address exists. Is this the correct address?: http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8fr/~rosmord/hieroglyphes/naufrage.hie Michael Akard Modesto, CA ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 22:46:19 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL deBuck's _Reading Book_ Nubkhas@aol.com wrote: > Stephen Fryer--you are very helpful, too. Can you tell me what texts are in > DeBuck's "Reading Book"? The Reading Book is 126 pages, divided into three sections: Exercises Historical Texts Canal inscription of Thutmose III Coronation decree of Thutmose I Inscription of Thutmose II, recording a rebellion in Nubia The Punt Expedition of Queen Hatshepsut The 'poetical' stela of Thutmose III Gebel Barkal stela of Thutmose III Five scarabs of AmenHotep III The biography of KhnumHotep, prince of Beni-Hasan Laudatory autobiography of Kay (Hatnub) Expedition to Hammamat (several versions of this) Semneh stela of Senwosret III Literary Texts Papyrus Westcar (page 6 - end) Story of the eloquent peasant Story of the shipwrecked sailor The Bentresh stela (Louvre C284) Religious Texts Hymn to Osiris (Louvre C286) Hymn to the sun-god Magical spell for the protection of a baby Book of the Dead, chap 125 (Papyrus of Nu) The myth of the destruction of mankind Complete references to the original publications are given in the table of contents. A lot of the stuff in the exercises is taken or adapted from the continuous texts. There is no key for the exercises. I hope this helps. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 23:34:41 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Shipwrecked Sailor Serge Rosmorduc wrote: > > Oh, BTW, you can find a loadable version of the Shipwrecked Sailor in > Manuel de codage format at : > > http://webperso.iut.univ-paris8.fr/~rosmord/hieroglyphes/naufrage.hie There has been no response from that site all day, at least from here. I find I not infrequently have problems accessing this server. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 30 May 1998 16:31:45 -0700 From: Al Berens To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Website Update The American Research Center in Egypt, Northern California Chapter is pleased to announce the upgrade of their website. Included is a selective archive of past lectures by such scholars as Dr. Antonio. Loprieno, Dr. Aidan Dodson, Dr. Daniel Polz, Dr. Susan Hollis, and others, with more to be posted shortly. Although there is not much language, the topics may be of interest to those with an interest in ancient Egypt. Also there is information on the upcoming visit by Dr. Zahi Hawass on August 19th when he will deliver a lecture on "Sacred Passages at Giza". http://home.pacbell.net/djoser Al Berens djoser@pacbell.net ARCE/NC Newsletter Editor ============================================================================== From: Aayko Eyma To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: AEL AW: AEL AW: AEL Shipwrecked Sailor Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 14:07:00 +-200 Thanks Stephen, Geoff, and Serge for your comments! I'll return to it, but for now only: >> So now I had done what proved to be lines 21(b)-27(a) :-/ >> which I transcribe as: >> >> sDd=j r=f n=k mj.t.t jr.y xpr m-'=j Ds=j Sm.kwj r bj3 n it.y >> >> h3(i).kwj r w3D-wr m dp.t n.t mH 120 m 3w=s mH 40 m sxw=s >Oops, I just noticed you should have xpr.n (you forgot the n) - past tense "which happened" ***Ah, yes Stephen, but the n is not there in the glyphs...neither in the sample of Borghouts nor that of Brunner...so I did not transcribe it, thinking xpr was an infinitive or something ("the happening"?). But I did not know what to do with the part exactly. Actually, everything verbal I like to run by with eyes closed ;). Q: should you supplement such things when transcribing? I thought transcription should be as much as possible "you get what you see". An occasional (i) left aside in standard ways of writing words. But this n would really be an addition. >m a=i Ds=i is sort of emphatic way of saying "to me". If you want it more literally "in my own arms" *** Yes, though it to be the prepostition m-' = in the hand of, together with, from, in the possession of, in charge of Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 16:23:52 -0700 From: Patrick De Smet - Rodrigues To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Champollion Michael Tilgner wrote: > > Dear Listmembers, > > if you ever come to Paris you should go to Pe`re Lachaise, a cemetery > worth seeing, because many prominent people had been buried here. They > used impressing gravestones, epitaphs, even small temples and pyramids. > You will find the grave of Jean-Franc,ois Champollion (1790 - 1832), who > deciphered the hieroglyphs and founded the modern scientific egyptology. > Around the cemetery you can buy a map on which his tomb is marked. After > walking some 5-10 minutes you will find an obelisk, about 5 m high, with > the name CHAMPOLLION - Le Jeune. His name and the dates of his birth and > death are inscribed on the gravestone, barely readable. It seems that > nobody cares about this place! SIC TRANSIT GLORIA MUNDI... Patrick De Smet - Rodrigues udjat@skynet.be Udjat, *Tearful* Eye in the Sky ============================================================================== From: Michael Tilgner To: 'Ancient Egyptian Language List' Subject: Re: AEL Champollion Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 20:01:22 +0200 Dear listmembers, I wrote: > if you ever come to Paris you should go to Pe`re Lachaise, a cemetery > worth seeing, because many prominent people had been buried here. They > used impressing gravestones, epitaphs, even small temples and pyramids. > You will find the grave of Jean-Franc,ois Champollion (1790 - 1832), who > deciphered the hieroglyphs and founded the modern scientific egyptology. > It seems that nobody cares about this place! > This is in contrast to the ongoing interest in his publications, some of > them astonishingly cheap, if one judges from a walk through the > bookshops of the boulevard St. Michel. Somebody commented: SIC TRANSIT GLORIA MUNDI! (Please, excuse, I deleted this mail already!) But, however, we have an Egyptian commentary as well, as I was reminded by this posting. Miriam Lichtheim, Ancient Egyptian Literature, Vol. II, The New Kingdom, 1976, pp. 175-178, "The immortality of writers": "Their [the scribes's] portals and mansions have crumbled, Their ka-servants are (gone); Their tombstones are covered with soil, Their graves are forgotten. Their name is pronounced over their books, Which they made while they had being; Good is the memory of their makers, It is for ever and all time! ... Man decays, his corpse is dust, All his kin have perished; But a book makes him remembered Through the mouth of its reciter. Better is a book than a well-built house, Than tomb-chapels in the west; Better than a solid mansion, Than a stela in the temple! ... Death made their names forgotten But books made them remembered!" One could not add anything to these statements! Best wishes, Michael Tilgner mtilgner@baan.nl ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 19:02:16 +0100 From: rosmord@iut.univ-paris8.fr (Serge Rosmorduc) To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: AEL AW: AEL AW: AEL Shipwrecked Sailor About xpr.n : There is no 'n', and I don't think there should be. What can be understood here points either to a pseudoparticiple or to a participle. A relative form is not likely because there is no subject. Now, there is a problem, anyway. We have "mitt iry xpr m-a=i" and mitt looks feminine. So, we should have *xpr.t m-ai "the like which happened to me" or *xpr=ti m-a=i a likewise thing, which happened to me A first solution would be to correct the text, but in our case, the text is generaly good. Maybe the scribe mixed up mitt and "mitw"/"miti", masculine substantives which mean the same. Hannig lists mitt as feminine, but gives an example : mitt is pfA pw : "it's equal". but for a feminine mitt, shouldn,'t we have 'tfA' ?? What do you think ? regards, Serge ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 10:40:57 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL AW: AEL AW: AEL Shipwrecked Sailor Aayko Eyma wrote: > >Oops, I just noticed you should have xpr.n (you forgot the n) - past tense > "which happened" > > ***Ah, yes Stephen, but the n is not there in the glyphs...neither in the > sample of Borghouts nor that of Brunner...so I did not transcribe it, > thinking xpr was an infinitive or something ("the happening"?). But I did not > know what to do with the part exactly. My mistake. I must have been glancing at the hieratic at that point and mistook the ligature (sign-group) xpr-r for xpr-n which is easy to do if you're careless. As for the grammar of the thing - Hoch suggests that it COULD be a stative in agreement with mitt iry (xpr.w), but considers it more likely to be a participle modifying mitt iry - meaning "...(something like it) which happened..." > Q: should you supplement such things when transcribing? > I thought transcription should be as much as possible "you get > what you see". An occasional (i) left aside in standard ways > of writing words. But this n would really be an addition. While I subscribe to that minimalist approach to transliteration, there are others who emend things a lot - Geoff Graham tends to lean in that direction I've noticed. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 31 May 1998 13:53:02 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL AW: AEL AW: AEL Shipwrecked Sailor Serge Rosmorduc wrote: > Now, there is a problem, anyway. We have > "mitt iry xpr m-a=i" > and mitt looks feminine. Indeed mitt should be feminine. However in this case xpr is treated as modifying the whole phrase "mitt iry" which is masculine - the final word in the phrase is masculine, I believe. Egyptian seems to have contained quite a number of "compound words" like this. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ************************************************** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ************************************************** ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 06:58:39 +1000 To: Ancient Egyptian Language From: Mike Dyall-Smith Subject: AEL Weni L7-8 Weni line 7. i-xr(=i) iqr Hr ib n.i Hm=f Can someone explain the syntax here? What would be the difference if it was written: i-xr iqr wi Hr ib n.i Hm=f [ie. sentence with adjectival predicate]. Is iqr being used as part of some kind of a compound noun (iqr-Hr-ib) or is it an independent noun meaning 'an excellent one' ?? Another possibility, "because of my excellence in the heart", in which case the transliteration would be i-xr iqr(=i)...... The adjective iqr can't be used in a verbal form here because it would be a stative and the .ki suffix would show (wouldn't it??). Weni line 8. I note the translation by Mark for the word 'wAb' (in line 8) is "innocence". I can't find this definition in Faulkner or Hannig. In Hannig the meanings are: Root. Root of the eye. Eye-muscles. in the expression ' wAb Hr-ib' = "cheering for" (?)*. *Note: I got the translation from Hannig via a computer program so it may be wrong. If it is correct, what is the origin of such an expression If the determinative was a rope instead of the bunch of flowers, then it could mean "cloth, diaper", but I can't see this being very appropriate, well, unless..... Is there a reference to someone proposing "innocence" for this word? Sorry if this is going over old ground (I did look). Perhaps Geoff has said something about it but I can't find it. Regards, Mike Dyall-Smith ************************************* Mike Dyall-Smith, Ph.D. Department of Microbiology and Immunology, University of Melbourne, 3052 Australia Tel: +(613) 9344-5693 Fax: +(613) 9347-1540 e-m: m.dyall-smith@microbiology.unimelb.edu.au web: www.microbiol.unimelb.edu.au/mds/ ************************************* ==============================================================================