From: Dirk Campbell Subject: Re: AEL waw Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 10:28:10 +0000 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Thanks Aayko - what is the middle consonant? I am not trying to make any connection between Semitic and Indo-European words, by the way! Thanks for your help Regards Dirk > Hi Dirk, > >> I would like to confirm that 'waw' means 'wave(s) of the sea' for a >> project I am working on, with the relevant hieroglyphs. > > In Egyptian, _wAw_ (w3w, second letter is a consonant, not a > modern 'a'!) indeed means "wave". But, if that's what you > are aiming for: it is not the origin of the English word "wave", > for water in motion, as that derives from a Germanic word > that also surfaces in the verb "to wag". > > Best, > Aayko Eyma ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 16:19:11 +0000 (GMT) From: bert_hramm Subject: Re : AEL waw To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Hi Dirk, I think that Ayako speaks about the hieroglyph waw. It is "written" by the G43 or V1 signs (in Gardiner font), is tranliterated by w, and rendered by the sound w (like in "week-end"). Regards, Bertrand ============================================================================== From: Dirk Campbell Subject: Re: Re : AEL waw Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 09:30:08 +0000 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List So is the word for waves of the sea 'wAw' or 'w'? Thanks Dirk ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:40:15 +0000 (GMT) From: Jerry McCarthy Subject: Re: Re : AEL waw To: Ancient Egyptian Language List According to Mark Vygus' dictionary (that being the most recent which I know about) "Wave of the Sea" is "wAw" and is written using the glyphs V4 - G1 - G43 - N35A. Regards, Jerry McCarthy, U.K. ============================================================================== From: "A.K. Eyma" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: Re : AEL waw Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 17:02:04 +0100 >So is the word for waves of the sea 'wAw' or 'w'? wAw "A" is internet convention (MdC) for the aleph -- in print it would be rendered w3w (well, the transcription looks like a 3 - you would need a special font). For an outsider not familiar with the issues (if you need it in such a context) both would be rather confusing! -- perhaps using we'ew could do there? Aayko ============================================================================== From: Carlos Moreira Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 13:03:32 +0000 Subject: AEL is there a glyph code for this "thing" ? To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Hi Folks on this Youtube video of a notorious coffin in the British Museum you can see what presumably could be the glyph of an aquatic dinosaur (Oh no! It's the infamous Elasmosaurus!!) or other amphibian animal, or whatever. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AtYXjOIeZ0 On category I of the CCER's Extended Library I can't find anything besides the lizard (I guess it is I2). I perused my Hieroglyphica book but couldn't find the relevant sign and code either ? Can you tell me if such animal has some Gardiner code assigned ? Not sure if Serge has drawn a similar thing or came across with some version of it already .... thanks in advance Carlos Moreira Portugal ============================================================================== From: ahatnakht@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 08:49:27 EST Subject: Re: Re : AEL waw To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk It's 'wAw' - the middle consonant "A" is a weak consonant: either a glottal stop, or similar to an "r" or and "l" or an "n", depending on the stage of the language and also the opinion of individual scholars. As vowels weren't written, and we don't usually know what they were, but have to somehow pronounce words, it is just an Egyptological convention to pronounce it as an"a". Mechthild Burton ahatnakht@aol.com ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 23:20:27 +0100 From: Vincent Euverte To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL is there a glyph code for this "thing" ? Hi everyone. May I suggest this glyph to be G54, a plucked bird (probably a goose or a duck). According to James P. Allen, it is either a phonogram snd / snD or a determinative in wSn "wring the neck of birds". You may also find several words in R.O. Faulkner using this glyph with the meaning of fear : snD = to fear, respect ; snD.t = fear ; snDw == timid, frightened man. However, I did not found any meaningful translation for the sequence as represented on the coffin : M16*(F51?:Z1) I9 G54 N35:O34 Z11*G43. Does anybody have a proposal ? Regards, /*Vincent Euverte, Rosette Project*/* web = http://vincent.euverte.free.fr Projet Rosette : http://projetrosette.info * ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:12:00 -0600 Subject: Re: AEL is there a glyph code for this "thing" ? From: Greg Davidson To: Ancient Egyptian Language List G54: snD. Clear as day. Not a dinosaur, but a plucked, dead bird. Greg Davidson ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 17:05:05 -0500 From: Jerzy Prus Subject: Re: AEL is there a glyph code for this "thing" ? To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Dear Sir, This is not a dinosaur, but a regular hieroglyphic sign G54 on the Gardiner list (Egyptian Grammar, 1969, p.473), explained by Him as a "trussed goose or duck". Sir Gardiner gave two examples of word where this sign is a determiantive, first is "wSn" = "wring neck of birds", "offer", the second one is "snD" = "fear". A printed form we can find under adress http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gardiners_List_G26-G54.png. On the website http://wapedia.mobi/en/List_of_hieroglyphs/german-Gardiner-list-translated we have explanation "G54 Phonogram for snd? (also phonetic Determinative) Determinative for (the bird) the neck". With regards, Jerzy Prus ============================================================================== From: "Michael Tilgner" To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL is there a glyph code for this "thing" ? Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 23:27:24 +0100 Carlos Moreira wrote: > Can you tell me if such animal has some Gardiner code assigned ? Dear Carlos, the sign in question is G54 "trussed goose or duck" for snD "fear". This passage is no. 110-111 in E.A. Wallis Budge, The Sarcophagus of Anchnesraneferab, London, 1885, p. 23 and no. 86-87 in C.E. Sander-Hansen, Die religi=F6sen Texte auf dem Sarg der Anchnesneferibre, Kopenhagen, 1937, p. 45 resp. Best wishes, Michael Tilgner ============================================================================== From: Dirk Campbell Subject: Re: Re : AEL waw Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 12:15:06 +0000 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Is everyone happy with the conclusion w-aleph-w? I'm getting a bit confused with the conflicting answers! Not familiar with Gardiner glyph codes I'm afraid, just wanted some basic information. Thanks Dirk ============================================================================== From: David New Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:17:07 +0800 Subject: Re: AEL is there a glyph code for this "thing" ? To: Ancient Egyptian Language List That would be a trussed goose or duck. Gardiner sign list G54. I don't understand how anyone could see a dinosaur when it's obviously dead poultry. David New ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 17:29:08 -0600 (GMT-06:00) From: thekets1@sprintmail.com To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL is there a glyph code for this "thing" ? That is a plucked bird = # G54. ============================================================================== From: "hansvanhaarst" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL is there a glyph code for this "thing" ? Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 22:22:55 +0100 It is G 54, a plucked bird. Phonogram for snD : fear Hans ============================================================================== To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: Re: AEL is there a glyph code for this "thing" ? Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 15:07:46 -0500 From: wenamun@aol.com G.54: "plucked bird" yours-- --Noreen Noreen Doyle freelance writer, editor, researcher, photographer http://www.noreen-doyle.com/ http://www.egyptomania.org/ ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 19:41:53 -0500 Subject: Re: AEL is there a glyph code for this "thing" ? From: John Corridan To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Hi Carlos: It's probably G54 (plucked bird). I was too lazy to translate the text in the youtube video, so you'll have to see if G54 might make sense here, but that's what it appears to be. Good luck. John Corridan ============================================================================== From: Rhio Barnhart Subject: Re: AEL is there a glyph code for this "thing" ? Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 13:33:05 -0800 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List This image is Gardiner G54 and represents a goose ready for cooking. No dinosaur. Sorry. RHB ============================================================================== To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: Re: AEL is there a glyph code for this "thing" ? Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 06:40:10 -0500 From: gwynefer@talktalk.net Hi, Being a total novice at hieros, I noticed it is facing the wrong way round for your dinasour, how about simply a duckus quackerus with a very long neck? Gwynefer ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 20:41:27 +0000 (GMT) From: bert_hramm Subject: Re : AEL is there a glyph code for this "thing" ? To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Hi Carlos, This is the G54 glyph, snD, "fear". It is indeed quite stretched, but it is really a goose. Regards, Bertrand ============================================================================== From: "George Fowler" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL is there a glyph code for this "thing" ? Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 17:18:36 -0400 Hi: Looks to me like Gardiner G 54 - "trussed goose or duck" seen as determinative in snD, "fear". Regards George ============================================================================== From: William Glidden To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 11:25:23 +1000 Subject: RE: AEL is there a glyph code for this "thing" ? Try Gardiner G54. It's a duck. William Glidden ============================================================================== From: Subject: Re: AEL is there a glyph code for this "thing" ? To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2010 14:49:21 -0600 (CST) Hi, That looks to me like the snD bird, Gardiner G54. It's a dead, plucked duck or goose. Megaera Lorenz ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 00:45:21 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: Grant Hicks To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL is there a glyph code for this "thing" ? Carlos, I think this is probably the "plucked bird" glyph G54, though it's a little longer and narrower than it's usually shown. m Htp, Grant ============================================================================== To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: Re: : AEL waw Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 13:24:49 -0500 From: ahatnakht@aol.com Yes, w + aleph + w is the consonantal root of the word. In order to pronounce it you need some vowels between the consonants, but we don't know the vowels and we aren't too sure about the pronouncation of the aleph either, so perhaps we'ew or wa'aw or wa'wa, or wa'awa or wa'uwa etc etc The phonologists on the List may be able to suggest some likely pronouncations. ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 23:44:00 +0100 (CET) From: "omezzab@tin.it" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: AEL kamose stele audio version Dear AEL members, Marianne Luban and I did try a vocal experiment with some lines of the first Kamose Stele. Marianne did the vocal research and I tried to give them shape. Those who are interested may find the mp3 recording and some explanations at my site: http://digilander.libero.it/ormez/ Any feedback would be quite welcome. Regards Orlando Mezzabotta ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 09:53:27 -0600 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: : AEL waw ahatnakht@aol.com wrote: > > Yes, w + aleph + w is the consonantal root of the word. > > In order to pronounce it you need some vowels between the consonants, but we don't > know the vowels and we aren't too sure about the pronouncation of the aleph either, so perhaps > > we'ew or wa'aw or wa'wa, or wa'awa or wa'uwa etc etc > > The phonologists on the List may be able to suggest some likely pronouncations. > Funny how Latin suggests, "wawe". : >} ============================================================================== From: Dirk Campbell Subject: Re: Re : AEL waw Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 15:44:52 +0000 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Many thanks Mark, that is really helpful! In Wallis Budge's Egyptian Language he gives the three hieroglyphs featured as representing the sounds 'u/o', 'a' and 'u/o'. On the Rosetta Stone the eagle hieroglyph (which I believe we are referring to as G1) undoubtedly transliterates the Greek/Roman letter 'a' - it cannot be a consonant. I don't know about Hebrew but in Arabic, surely closer to Hebrew than ancient Egyptian, the glottal or consonantal 'a' is Ain, not Alif. But consider that in order to pronounce any vowel sound on its own one must use a glottal stop - try saying 'a' or 'ee' or 'oo' without one! Vowels are only sounded like that at the beginning of a word, however, not in the middle. The statements of another correspondent here that we don't know what vowels were in the middle of some Egyptian words does not apply in this case as G1, undoubtedly 'a', is used. The 'chick' and 'knotted rope' hieroglyphs both stand for either 'o' or 'u' according to Wallis Budge (a spiral symbol can also be used). So it seems fairly clear to me that the Egyptian word for 'wave of the sea' is pronounced pretty much like the modern English 'wow'. If there has been any improvement on Champollion, Wallis Budge et al. in respect of the Egyptian pronunciation of Greek and Roman names in the 1st century BCE, please let me know. Thanks all for your interest, and best wishes Dirk > Dirk > Here are the glyphs/Gardiner codes for Wave (of the Sea) > > ============================================================================== From: "Marianne Luban" Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 21:35:07 GMT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: Re : AEL waw According to Faulkner, "wAw" is not attested until "Shipwrecked". Although it looks like it might be vocalized "wa'u", due to Gardiner V4, one cannot be sure because this syllabic sign was evidently used, in the orthography, to indicate Semitic terms like "sAwAbAbA" [in the pAnastasi] where it is unlikely that V4 represents "wa". In fact, the word there seems to be Sem. "seevoov", which means "rotation" and is a masc. noun. In the toponyms.there is a "Wiry",[or maybe "wAriyi"] beginning with the sign [Hannig 1324 b] which seems to mean "Ilios" or Troy. Most often, though, it is represented in the "wAwAt" of the land south of Egypt, the pronunciation of which does not seem to be known. In the writing of the kingly names of the Persian and Macedonian dynasties V4 seems to represent "oo" in "intirywAS" or "Darioosh" [Darius]. and the "o" in "ptwArwmys" [Ptolemy]. Before them, there was "wAsArkni", called "Osorkon" by us. So who knows how V4 was viewed at any particular time in Egyptian histor?. Still, judging by how some other common words beginning with the sign have survivied into Coptic, I do not think "we" [short e] unreasonable and tend to agree with Aayko. Marianne Luban http://thetimetravelerreststop.blogspot.com/ ============================================================================== From: ahatnakht@aol.com Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 18:42:40 EST Subject: Re: Re : AEL waw To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Dirk Budge is unfortunately not reliable and his transliteration system was already out of date when he published it. None of those glyphs represent vowels but weak consonants. The Egyptians also used a special system of writing foreign names - so-called syllabic writing. I am not an expert in Demotic (the vernacular at the time of the Rosetta Stone), so perhaps someone else can answer as to how that system was employed in Greek and Roman times. In a message dated 15/01/2010 17:28:50 GMT Standard Time, dc@dirkcampbell.co.uk writes: In Wallis Budge's Egyptian Language he gives the three hieroglyphs featured as representing the sounds 'u/o', 'a' and 'u/o'. Mechthild Burton ahatnakht@aol.com ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 11:18:56 -0500 Subject: Re: Re : AEL waw From: Aurelio LaRotta To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Hi Dirk, Let me start by trying to answer your original question: What is the word for 'wave' (of the sea) in Ancient Egyptian and how is it written in hieroglyphics? I'll get to the pronunciation a little bit further down. I don't have a way to send you hieroglyphic text on this message board, but if you're interested you can do the following (should be fun): - go to http://aaew.bbaw.de/tla/servlet/S05?d=d001&h=h001 - take a minute to register, then log in with your new password (make sure to accept the terms) - go to 'search the list of Egyptian words' and type in 'Welle' under translation (sorry, German not English) - this will give you all words that have the translation 'wave' + their hieroglyphs To enjoy the full benefits of this you will have to know some German (note that there are also words in the list that include the string -welle- like in "anschwellen" - ignore those). In any case, you will find that Erman's Woerterbuch gives: 3Hy (?), nw.yt, h3n.w, hn.w. The word discussed so far, w3.w only comes up if you type in 'Brandung' (= surge, the waves hitting the shore). The nice thing about this is that it shows the hieroglyphs for all these words, so if you were thinking about inspiration for cover art or the like - here it is :-) Why so many? Actually, this is to be expected. You're looking at 4,000 years of documented history of the Egyptian language (I'm including only one millenium of Coptic) and sources ranging from graffiti and student exercises to courtly poetry and religious writings. The question remains which of these most closely matches what you had in mind. In Coptic, the survivors seem to be 'hoeim' and 'dzhol', at least judging from Crum's (had to look them up). But let's accept w3.w for the moment as the best equivalent - how is this to be pronounced? You will have noticed that I changed the transcription from 'A' to '3' whereever applicable precisely to avoid the confusion between vowels and consonants. There are only two scenarios I know of that Ancient Egyptian uses consonants for vowels in and that is in the transcriptions of foreign names (like those that allowed Champollion to get started in the first place) and in the group writing of foreign loan words that Marianne already mentioned. Otherwise, everything you'll see in Egyptian words are consonants. To the best of my knowledge, this has been accepted in the Egyptolgic community for at least half if not a full century. Citing Budge and Champollion in support of the contrary is alike to claiming that superconductivity and quantum tunnelling cannot exist because Volta didn't describe them - these sources are hopelessly outdated (which does not diminish the magnitude of their achievments in their own time). Unfortunately, it has become a time-honoured tradition to keep the original transcription as 'vowels' for simplicity - a convention understood by anybody in the field but bound to confuse newcomers. Also, the enormously wide distribution of Budge in today's bookstores (which I suspect has got something to do with expired copyrights and cheap reprints as well as the ease of access - modern books are bigger on 'scientific rigour') certainly doesn't help. But back to the issue at hand: Following from the above, we do not have any a priori knowledge of which vowels to substitute in w3.w. You would need: (a) a direct descendant in Coptic or (b) a transcription in another language like Akkadian or Greek or (c) a cognate in another language, like Hebrew or (d) a related word in Egyptian (say a verb) and some rules on how nouns derived from certain classes of verbs are generally vocalized. All these being absent, you could get lucky if the word w3.w was used as a rhyme somewhere in a song or as a pun in a story (yes, this happens) or mispelled for a homonym. You see how this goes - the typical mystery novel is easier to figure out :-) As to the nature of the consonant /3/, there is still some debate (again, consonants change over the millenia, think 'knight' pronounced kay-neekht in Chaucer's times and 'nite' today) but the 'ayn' is generally reserved for the consonant transcribed as lower case /a/ by most and as /9/ by some (I prefer the latter, for the above reasons). If you want to have a good look at some recent material on Egyptian phonology, check out Loprieno on Amazon ( http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Egyptian-Introduction-Antonio-Loprieno/dp/0521448492 ). Hope you find this interesting and maybe helpful. Cheers, Leo ============================================================================== To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: Re: AEL kamose stele audio version Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 14:25:34 -0500 From: ahatnakht@aol.com Orlando I'm not qualified to give you feed-back on phonology or vocalisation so will just say: I really like it! I do hope you and Marianne Luban will do some more ! Tilly ============================================================================== From: Dirk Campbell Subject: Re: Re : AEL waw Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 00:34:57 +0000 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Thank you Leo for the time and attention you have put into educating a complete beginner. I will stop regarding Wallis Budge as an expert from this point. One thing I still don't understand is why the Rosetta Stone would feature consonants as transliterations of Greco-Roman vowels. If vowels were not written, Cleopatra should have been rendered KLWPTR instead of KLEWPATRA in the cartouche. Best wishes Dirk ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 16 Jan 2010 22:30:52 -0600 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL kamose stele audio version Hi; I understand that nobody can make any promises for real advancement from such experimentation, but there was a good example, this week, of how original research can bring more likely ideas to the fore. PBS did a Nova show on the reconstruction of one of Hatshepsut's sea boats for the expedition to Punt. There is no way to prove that the Egyptians used caulking of linen and beeswax, but, after the boat was built, this combination seemed to recommend itself quite well. So, while plugging in possibilities may not be a sure way of getting closer to the truth, it is sometimes the best way available. The linguist who did the Egyptian dialog for Stargate and The Mummy also plugged in Coptic vowels. While not conclusive, they are a good place to start. The more you play around with this kind of thing, the more it may become possible to sense what seems natural. Best of luck, Bob ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 17:08:02 +0100 From: Zbigniew Szczudlik To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: Re : AEL waw Dirk Campbell wrote: > One thing I still don't understand is why the Rosetta Stone would > feature consonants as transliterations of Greco-Roman vowels. If vowels > were not written, Cleopatra should have been rendered KLWPTR instead of > KLEWPATRA in the cartouche. As Leo put it above: There are only two scenarios I know of that Ancient Egyptian uses consonants for vowels in and that is in the transcriptions of foreign names (like those that allowed Champollion to get started in the first place) and in the group writing of foreign loan words that Marianne already mentioned. Otherwise, everything you'll see in Egyptian words are consonants. Take care, Zbigniew ============================================================================== From: "Marianne Luban" Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 21:20:34 GMT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: Re: AEL kamose stele audio version ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Robert Myers >I understand that nobody can make any promises for real advancement from >such experimentation, but there was a good example, this week, of how >original research can bring more likely ideas to the fore. Oh, I don't know...the lines of the Israel Stela that I recently provided demonstrates quite a bit about pronunciation, IMO, and I am personally convinced that a pun there shows that Israel and "apwyryw" [in one example of group writing] were considered one and the same in the 19th Dynasty era--due to the vocalization of the word "prtw". That is my notion of an "advancement", although others may not agree. >The linguist who did the Egyptian dialog for Stargate and The Mummy also >plugged in Coptic vowels. While not conclusive, they are a good place >to start. The more you play around with this kind of thing, the more it >may become possible to sense what seems natural. There never really was anything conclusive where the previously unwritten vowels were concerned because one of the things that is truly obvious in Coptic is that its various dialects often employed different vowels in the same word. I think it quite safe to conclude that there were geographic dialects of more ancient Egyptian, as well. One text claims that a man of the Delta and someone living in the extreme south [Elephantine] could not understand one another. For that reason and others, I think vowels are overrated. There is not so much difference between some of them and their regional vocalization renders that even more insignificant. When I came to live in southern California, people knew I wasn't from there originally due to the way I pronounced "bag"--yes, there are several shades of "a". The thing I liked best about Stargate and the Mummy films was that very thing--people making an effort to speak Egyptian. I may be prejudiced, but I don't think anybody has thus far done that as convincingly as Orlando Mezzabotta. I hope he doesn't mind that I reveal his profession--dubbing for movies and TV. He is a seasoned actor, although that should be obvious enough. Marianne Luban http://thetimetravelerreststop.blogspot.com/ ============================================================================== From: Dirk Campbell Subject: Re: Re : AEL waw Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 17:21:33 +0000 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Yes, I did read that. It doesn't answer my question, but never mind. Dirk > Dirk Campbell wrote: > >> One thing I still don't understand is why the Rosetta Stone would >> feature consonants as transliterations of Greco-Roman vowels. If >> vowels were not written, Cleopatra should have been rendered >> KLWPTR instead of KLEWPATRA in the cartouche. > > As Leo put it above: > > There are only two scenarios I know of that Ancient Egyptian uses > consonants for vowels in and that is in the transcriptions of > foreign names (like those that allowed Champollion to get started > in the > first place) and in the group writing of foreign loan words that > Marianne already mentioned. Otherwise, everything you'll see in > Egyptian words are consonants. > > Take care, > Zbigniew > > ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 17 Jan 2010 18:44:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Re : AEL waw From: Aurelio LaRotta To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Hi Dirk, You're welcome :-) Actually, I wouldn't want to be too hard on Sir Wallis Budge - he certainly was an expert in his own time and did a lot to re-introduce the Egyptian language and literature to the world. It's just that we've learned so much more since :-) About your question on using consonants for vowels in foreign names (and syllabic writing in loanwords): a mere matter of practicality! It's easy to substitute the vowels in words of your own language - if I wrote to you: "Ystrdy, Prm Mnstr Grdn Brwn mt wth Jpn's Prm Mnstr Yky Htym" you'll probably be able to read everything - but the last two words only if you know the current PM is Yukio Hatoyama. You either know the person's name or you have to ask somebody who does :-) To prevent the potential embarassment, the Egyptians came up with a clever convention: use a certain set of consonants to indicate the position and quality of the vowels. So, Yukio Hatoyama would probably become Ywkyw H(3)twy(9)m(3). I put some consonants in parentheses because the Egyptians did not transcribe every vowel, either, when rendering Greek or Roman names - just enough to make it pronounceable. So, if they had the technique, why would they not use it on all words? As a matter of fact, why not do away with the whole complicated system of hundreds of hieroglyphs and use just the monoliteral signs instead? The same question could be asked with respect to the thousands of hanzi/kanji needed to write today's Chinese and Japanese. Some of it may have been tradition, but I suspect (now that's my personal opinion) that it just did not appeal to them. Not elegant enough :-) After all, we don't make our spelling system consistent either (so, 'plough' is pronounced 'plow' and 'though' is 'thoe' and 'through' is 'thru' - hm .... in a way we're not that different :-) ) Hope this helps! Cheers, Leo ==============================================================================