From: "A.P. de Visser" To: Subject: AEL Soker Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 09:56:58 +0100 Dear members Does anybody know the existence of a translation of,,The Litanies of Seker", published in the readingbook by Budge? Thanks for help anyhow. Bram de Visser ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 09:28:40 +0100 (CET) From: "omezzab@tin.it" To: Subject: R: Re: AEL Sinuhe: line 5 of 7 (Berlin 3022, 2-7) well, I think my translation (or at least the image I grasp) agrees with yours: "to clear the road for its traveller" (where "its traveller" is Sinuhe, am I wrong?). I thought "s(y)" could be read as "accusative", so Sinuhe is the traveller (Smw) who walks on it [s(y)]. But I wonder whether that is correct. If we read (=s) I think "Smsw=s" could be seen as genitive. But, as I said, it seems to me that both our images agree, with Sinuhe cutting through the bushes. And since I'm more interested in "images" than in grammar - sacrilegious as this may seem - that's OK for me. Thank you Orlando Mezzabotta ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 13:41:41 +0000 Subject: Re: Re: AEL Sinuhe: line 5 of 7 (Berlin 3022, 2-7) From: Mark-Jan Nederhof To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Orlando Mezzabotta wrote: > I thought "s(y)" could be read as "accusative", > so Sinuhe is the traveller (Smw) who walks on it [s(y)]. > But I wonder whether that is correct. Ah, so with Smw as active participle. I think that would work. I abandone my objections, but perhaps someone else sees a problem with this. > If we read (=s) I think "Smsw=s" could be seen > as genitive. But, as I said, it seems to me that both our > images agree, with Sinuhe cutting through the bushes. > And since I'm more interested in "images" than > in grammar - sacrilegious as this may seem - > that's OK for me. With passages that are contentious, any type of analysis, grammatical or otherwise, may help to get closer to an informed interpretation. As to "images", one thing that is not clear to me is whether wAt is the road that Sinuhe flees from (my present guess) or whether it is the way he creates cutting through the bushes (this may be your view). I don't know whether wAt can have the latter meaning. Either way, my understanding of the grammar is that s(.y) would likely refer to wAt rather than to bAty. If this is true, then your translation is still not so easy to justify in my opinion. Mark-Jan ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 20:17:22 +0100 (CET) From: "omezzab@tin.it" To: Subject: R: Re: Re: AEL Sinuhe: line 5 of 7 (Berlin 3022, 2-7) >I don't know whether wAt can have the latter meaning. I think "wAt" is a generic word. And in Hannig I find a "iri wAt" translated as "Weg bereiten" which is probably what Sinuhe is doing. >Either way, my understanding of the grammar is that s(.y) would likely >refer to wAt rather than to bAty. I agree with you definitely. >If this is true, then your translation is >still not so easy to justify in my opinion. This I do not understand. While he cuts his way (irt wAt) on it [ s(.y) ] he walks (Smw). But it would be nice to have other opionions. Thank you Orlando ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 21:26:28 -0800 (PST) From: sonofthemummy Subject: Re: AEL Soker To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Hi; In the Dover edition with select translations of the texts, there is a translation in the front material, page xxxii, I think. Bob --- On Mon, 12/7/09, A.P. de Visser wrote: From: A.P. de Visser Subject: AEL Soker To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Date: Monday, December 7, 2009, 2:56 AM Dear members Does anybody know the existence of a translation of,,The Litanies of Seker", published in the readingbook by Budge? Thanks for help anyhow. Bram de Visser ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2009 21:47:25 +0100 From: Vincent Euverte To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Soker Dear Bram, In his Reading Book (Dover Edition - Toronto, 1993 - ISBN 0-486-27486-1), Wallis Budge is proposing his own translation (p.XXXII - XXXV) ; and in the table of contents (p.X), it reads : "/6. THE LITANIES OF SEKER (p.87-96) - Transcript into hieroglyphs from the hieratic text of a Rhind Papyrus, BM 10188. The complete text of the papyrus, with tranliteration and translation, has been published by myself in Archeologia, vol LII./" A summary of the book and a link to Amazon can be found here : http://www.donf.com/egypt/biblio/te1a.htm From Trismegistos (http://www.trismegistos.org/hhp/detail.php?tm=48496), it seems that R.O. Faulkner produced a transcription in 1933, and W. Speigelberg translated the colophon in 1913. Hoping it will help, friendly yours, /*Vincent Euverte, Rosette Project*/* web = http://vincent.euverte.free.fr Projet Rosette : http://projetrosette.info * ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 11:25:01 +0000 Subject: Re: Re: Re: AEL Sinuhe: line 5 of 7 (Berlin 3022, 2-7) From: Mark-Jan Nederhof To: Ancient Egyptian Language List On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 7:17 PM, omezzab@tin.it wrote: >>If this is true, then your translation is >>still not so easy to justify in my opinion. > > This I do not understand. While he cuts his way (irt wAt) > on it [ s(.y) ] he walks (Smw). To me, "place myself between bushes" doesn't rhyme with "travel" (or "walk" if you prefer). Sinuhe crawls into the bushes to hide, not to journey anywhere. This is a matter of common sense more than of grammar. > But it would be nice to have other opionions. By all means. A convincing translation motivated by sound arguments is still missing. Mark-Jan ============================================================================== From: "Marianne Luban" Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 19:28:49 GMT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: Re: AEL Sinuhe: line 5 of 7 (Berlin 3022, 2-7) ---------- Original Message ---------- From: "omezzab@tin.it" To: Subject: R: Re: Re: AEL Sinuhe: line 5 of 7 (Berlin 3022, 2-7) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 20:17:22 +0100 (CET) >I think "wAt" is a generic word. And in Hannig I find a >"iri wAt" translated as "Weg bereiten" which is probably >what Sinuhe is doing. I think you have the right idea. I have two translations of Sinuhe here. Miriam Lichtheim has "I put myself between two bushes, so as to leave the road to its traveler." William Kelly Simpson renders "I placed myself between two shrubs in order to separate the road from its traveler." I think, in this case, in "r irt wAt Smw-s", "r" has the meaning of "until" as in "until making a way [as] her traveler". That looks pretty clumsy in English, I realize, but the fact remains that Sinuhe does leave in the next phrase, which is "I set out southward". So this might be the ancient Egyptian way of saying "getting ready to hit the road", as we say in America. While hiding in those bushes, the fugitive has to figure out what to do. All he knows is, he has to avoid the palace ["I did not plan to go to the residence."], get as far away from it as possible. He has to "make" a way, get going. I don't know how Lichtheim or Simpson justified their versions but neither are too satisfactory, either. Probably, the word "m" before "Smw=s" would be preferable--and it could be an omission. Hannig has another example on page 819, column one, that is hard to translate into English and German, also. It is "mtnw Hr irt Smt" or "the ways are passable", which Hannig gives as a loose translation. Marianne Luban http://thetimetravelerreststop.blogspot.com/ ============================================================================== From: "Michael Tilgner" To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL Soker Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 23:03:26 +0100 Bram de Visser wrote: > Does anybody know the existence of a translation of,,The Litanies of > Seker", > published in the readingbook by Budge? In addition to Vincente Euverte's posting: A new hieroglyphic transcription of the Hieratic text can be found in: -- Raymond O. Faulkner, The Papyrus Bremner-Rhind, Bruxelles, 1933 (Bibliotheca Aegyptiaca, III), chapter III: "The Ritual of Bringing in Sokaris", pp. 35-41, and chapter II: "The Colophon", pp. 32-34 -- Faulkner also translates these texts: "The Bremner-Rhind Papyrus II", in: JEA, vol. 23, pp. 10-16; with commentary. -- Photographs of the original Hieratic papyrus: http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/search_results_ids.aspx?IdNum=10188 See also: -- Jacqueline Lustman, Étude Grammaticale du Papyrus Bremner-Rhind, Paris, 1999 Best wishes, Micael Tilgner ============================================================================== From: Michael Mac Donagh To: Subject: RE: AEL Sinuhe: line 5 of 7 (Berlin 3022, 2-7) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 22:03:16 +0000 Just a thought. Sinuhe at this point has 'done a runner'. He may be hiding in the bushes to work out what to do next, as suggested. But he would also be hiding form the official and military traffic on the road - waiting until he could safely move. He would, in a real world situation, be unlikely to travel by the official road so the text may be hinting that he will make his own road and in that sense leave the official road to its follower. That may be what is behind Lichtheim's translation. Howevr, Egyptian can be quite subtle in combining meanings in such a way. ============================================================================== From: "Marianne Luban" Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2009 18:15:23 GMT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: RE: AEL Sinuhe: line 5 of 7 (Berlin 3022, 2-7) ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Michael Mac Donagh To: Subject: RE: AEL Sinuhe: line 5 of 7 (Berlin 3022, 2-7) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 22:03:16 +0000 >Just a thought. Sinuhe at this point has 'done a runner'. He may be hiding >in the bushes to work out what to do next, as suggested. But he would also >be hiding form the official and military traffic on the road - waiting until >he could safely move. He would, in a real world situation, be unlikely to >travel by the official road so the text may be hinting that he will make >his own road and in that sense leave the official road to its follower. That >may be what is >behind Lichtheim's translation. Howevr, Egyptian can be >quite subtle in combining meanings in such a way. hierogl But usually Egyptian clauses make better sense than this one. "The Tale of Sinuhe" was very popular and was copied many times. We are looking at the Berlin version, a more or less contemporary one, but probably not the original. Anyway, I needn't explain what can happen with hand copies of copies but perhaps all this once made more sense. King Amenemhat is murdered and his heir, off fighting the Libyans, is notified. Sesostris, the new king, leaves for home without notifying the bulk of his army, evidently including some of his brothers or half-brothers who were following him in some capacity. Then it says that "one sent to or for" these royal children and then "nis.n-tw n wa im", which Lichtheim took to mean one of them was summoned while Sinuhe was nearby with Simpson feeling that this prince was being read some letter under these conditions. Where is all this supposed to be happening? If Sinuhe, the harem official was off on the campaign with the sons of the murdered king, it must mean that women were also there as he served the great princess. You are assuming that Sinuhe and others were by now on some road back to the residence, but the Berlin version does not say anything about that. Instead, it seems to indicate that a messenger came to the Egyptian encampment--wherever it was-- to advise the other royal children what had occurred--as their brother had left without telling them. It also makes little sense that Sinuhe would still be there, as his mistress was the wife of the heir or cco-regent. Didn't Sesostris take his wife with him when he left? Regardless, just why a harem official is around to hear somebody tell a prince of the death of his father is not very transparent. It was not unusual for princes to go on campaigns but royal ladies? So it is not at all clear if Sinuhe was close to the palace at the time or far away from it. Anyway, the ensuing itinerary indicates the fugivtive was in Egypt and not in some foreign land. It is a muddle. Then it says that the heart of Sinuhe began to flutter and his body to tremble when he heard the news of the murder. Evidently he thought he might be implicated in the plot against the sovereign, as he thought it best to hide himself from sight--in those bushes. Then the word for "way" or "road" is mentioned in the enigmatic passage, but not before. When people have to guess what is meant by an Egyptian passage, it means that there is an unknown expression there--or some scribal error. The only verb in the clause under discussion is "irt" but two philologists rendered that as "separate" and "leave". There are some rather odd expressions in Egyptian. I feel sure it was not immediately clear that "Hr mw=f", which is literally "upon his water" actually meant "loyal to him"--but it was discerned. "r irt wAt Smw=s" may be an expression--or something is written very oddly--erroneously. Those are the options. Marianne Luban http://thetimetravelerreststop.blogspot.com/ ============================================================================== From: To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Sinuhe: line 5 of 7 (Berlin 3022, 2-7) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 14:48:53 +0100 Sinuhe R5-R7, we propose: (R5) m oA-nfrw nfr.w nb.t jmAx HA.t-sp 30 Abd 3 (ny) Ax.t sw 7 in (nella città di) Qaneferu”, Neferu, Signora di adorazione. L’anno di regno 30, nel terzo mese della stagione dell’inondazione, il giorno 7, Note: oA-nfrw, lett. (Amenemhat è) alto di bellezza (nome della piramide e della città della piramide di Amenemhat a Lisht) (Grimal, SE, tav. 10). In egizio, molte parole, maschili o femmminili, sebbene dotate di tratti del plurale sono grammaticalmente dei singolari. Questi termini, detti collettivi, servono a designare degli insieme di persone o animali, di materie o prodotti, di sentimenti o di astrazioni. In traslitterazione, la –w finale della quale sono talvolta provvisti, non è perciò preceduta dal punto (Grandet-Mathieu, EH 5.2). La m che compare nei nomi delle due piramidi è la m di stato (Grandet-Mathieu, EH 4.4); Nelle datazioni due elementi, l’anno di regno e il giorno del mese, sono espressi per mezzo di due termini specifici: HA.t-sp, anno di regno (Grandet-Mathieu, EH 21.4, b); questa lettura non è affatto certa. Si è anche proposta la lettura rnp.t-sp e Hsb.t (Grandet-Mathieu, EH 21.4, b, nota 3) (Allen, ME 9.9), e sw, giorno (questo termine non deve essere confuso con hrw e ra [Grandet-Mathieu, EH 3.5 e 7.3], mai usato nelle datazioni). è l’abbreviazione di una parola la cui ortografia completa è sw, var. jsw (?) (Grandet-Mathieu, EH 21.4, b); Ax.t, lett. inondazione (da metà luglio a metà novembre) (Grandet-Mathieu, EH 21.4, a). (R6) ar nTr r Ax.t=f n(y)-sw.t bjty sHtp(w)-jb-ra il dio ascese al suo orizzonte. Il nysut bjty Sehetepibra, Note: ar nTr r Ax.t=f, lett. l’essere asceso del dio verso l’orizzonte, eufemismo per morì; nTr, dio, divinità (Erman-Grapow, WB II, 358, 1-360, 12) (Faulkner, CD 142) (Hannig, GH 443) (Meeks, AL I, 77.2260; II, 78.2284; III, 79.1661) (Menu, PL 127), è l’agente di ar (indica qui il sovrano defunto e divinizzato); ar / jar [2-lit.], ascendere, elevarsi (Erman-Grapow, WB I, 41, 14-25) (Faulkner, CD 45) (Hannig, GH 31) (Meeks, AL I, 77.0168; II, 78.0194) (Menu, PL 50); ar nTr, lett il dio è asceso, forma nominale perfettiva antica (Grandet-Mathieu, EH 33.1); si rende in traduzione con un passato prossimo o, in un contesto narrativo, con un passato remoto (Allen, ME 20.4) (Gardiner, EG 450.1). Secondo Malaise-Winand, il perfettivo o passato remoto narrativo sDm=f è spesso utilizzato per dare alla recita una connotazione di particolare vivacità. Questo deriva dal fatto che il perfettivo sDm=f non tiene conto alcuno della post-fase, forzando l’attenzione sulla realizzazione del processo. Ciò ha contribuito a dare a questa forma il nome di sDm=f dranmmatico (Malaise-Winand, GR 443 e 552); sHtp(w)-jb-ra, colui che propizia il cuore di Ra, prenomen di Amenemhat I (nome in tematizzazione ripreso dal pronome suffisso, soggetto di sHr) (Grandet-Mathieu, EH 13.3.1; 49.1); sHtp(w), participio attivo imperfettivo (Grandet-Mathieu, EH 40.2, c e .4, a) del verbo causativo [3-lit.] sHtp, propiziare, compiacere, accontentare (Erman-Grapow, WB IV, 221, 10-222, 20) (Faulkner, CD 239) (Hannig, GH 738) (Meeks, AL I, 77.3767). (R7) sHr=f r p.t Xnm(=w) m jtn egli s’allontanò verso il cielo, essendosi unito al disco solare Note: sHr [caus. 2-lit.], allontanarsi, elevarsi (fly up, monter, s’éleve, entfernen ) (sinonimo di ar, cfr. nota 6) (Faulkner, CD 238) (Menu, PL 195); o sHrj [caus. 3-inf.] (Allen, ME Dictionary 467) (Erman-Grapow, WB IV, 219, 9-11) (Hannig, GH 737); sHr=f, lett. essersi allontanato di lui, forma nominale perfettiva antica, cfr. ar nTr di nota 6; il pronome suffisso =f si riferisce a sHtp(w)-jb-ra in tematizzazione, cfr. nota 6; (m-xt) ø Xnm(=w) m jtn, proposizione circostanziale in protasi con congiunzione m-xt sottintesa, e Xnm(=w) come compiuto senza agente (Grandet-Mathieu, EH 38.2, a). Fondamentalmente una circostanziale è una proposizione a predicato avverbiale (=PPA) sequenziale avente per soggetto il pronome dimostrativo ø, il quale riprende il contenuto della proposizione che precede. Tutte le circostanziali contengono una forma di verbo introdotta da una preposizione. A differenza delle semplici sequenziali, tali proposizioni permettono di precisare la natura della circostanza ch’esse intrattengono con la proposizione iniziale (Grandet-Mathieu, EH 36.1). M.E. Chioffi & G. Rigamonti member of the: International. Ass. of Egyptologists Ass. Italiana Archeologi Subacquei Institute of Nautical Archaeology Istituto Italiano Civiltà Egizia Ass. Napoletana Studi Egittologici Ass. d'Egyptologie Isis Ist. Ital. Archeologia Etnologia Navale European Ass. of Archaeologists Ass. Italiana Carabinieri ============================================================================== From: "Marianne Luban" Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 20:34:40 GMT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: Re: AEL Sinuhe: line 5 of 7 (Berlin 3022, 2-7) ---------- Original Message ---------- From: To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Sinuhe: line 5 of 7 (Berlin 3022, 2-7) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2009 14:48:53 +0100 >Sinuhe R5-R7, we propose: >((R7) >sHr=f r p.t Xnm(=w) m jtn >egli s=92allontan=F2 verso il cielo, essendosi unito al disco solare Si, grazie--ma non stiamo a " linea sette" ma " sezione sette" --potete vederla qui: http://jennycarrington.tripod.com/JJSinuhe/transcription-1.html Il problema =E8 con questo ...... "r irt wAt Smw=s". Che cosa voi pensano a questo? Marianne Luban http://thetimetravelerreststop.blogspot.com/ ==============================================================================