Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2009 13:31:32 +0000 Subject: Re: AEL Help needed re isolating each clause in a text From: Mark-Jan Nederhof To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Segmenting an hieroglyphic text is the most serious obstacle many people run into just after learning some basic grammar and trying to tackle a full text for the first time. After one has (tentatively) identified phrases, the next problem is how to connect a sequence of those phrases into a unit that in English would be called a sentence, in a way that makes sense, which often requires inserting appropriate connectives. I frequently find myself switching between considerations about the expected meaning and those about the grammar and the writing system. One such consideration may influence another, not necessarily in a linear or hierarchical manner, and one sometimes needs to revise e.g. the word segmentation based on insights about the discourse structure of the text. The only "strategies" I use that I'm conscious of using are: 1) left-to-right matching of hieroglyphs against words in the dictionary, 2) not committing to an interpretation too soon, and revising and re-revising ones ideas about how parts fit together, until one has a translation of a substantial section of the text that makes good sense, while relying on familiar grammatical constructions to justify that translation. If either the grammar use seems odd or if the translation is nonsensical, more work may be needed. If it is of any help, I'm currently working on a tool that allows one to blot out existing translations, while keeping visual cues indicating phrase boundaries. This will help students in early stages of learning to overcome part of the problem of segmentation. Mark-Jan ============================================================================== From: Mark-Jan Nederhof Subject: AEL tool for collaborative translation (Ptahhotep) To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Date: Friday, 27 November, 2009, 19:23 Dear All, With generous help from Geoffrey Watson, Mark Wilson, and Robert Myers, a tool was put together to help with our collaborative translation of the Instruction of Ptahhotep. You can download the tool to put your translations under the hieroglyphic, and then upload them to a central server, to be aligned with translations from others. You can find instructions on the main page: http://www.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/~mjn/ptahhotep/ To avoid abuse, you will need a password to be able to upload, which is: *************** The tool is as yet experimental, so bear with us if there are initial glitches. Good luck! Mark-Jan ============================================================================== Subject: Re: AEL Help needed re isolating each clause in a text From: Rhio Barnhart Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 10:34:56 -0800 To: Ancient Egyptian Language List John and Mark-Jan, On Nov 27, 2009, at 5:31 AM, Mark-Jan Nederhof wrote: > After one has (tentatively) identified phrases, the > next problem is how to connect a sequence of those phrases into a unit > that in English would be called a sentence, in a way that makes sense, > which often requires inserting appropriate connectives. With the online GlyphStudy group, using Hoch "Middle Egyptian Grammar", we have gone through considerable basic grammar at this point. Hoch introduces sentence structure from chapter 1. Our superb moderator provided a chart (below) that is extremely helpful in organizing the components of a verbal sentence. Sentences do not contain all the parts. There are other sentence structures that we have not yet covered, but the following is very helpful. PVsioSOA Word order in a verbal sentence P = particle V = verb s = pronoun as a subject i = pronoun as an indirect object o = pronoun as a direct object S = Subject as a noun O = Subject as an object, direct or indirect A = Adjunct, any additional information which Hoch calls "adverbial modifiers". The "O" and "A" sections can contain words, prepositional phrases, verbal constructions etc to which the word order can be overlaid again. Try a breakdown and listing of the components of your sentence per the above list. The overall structure is often clarified. Mark-Jan, I find the appropriate word interpolations in translating very tricky as well. However, using the chart above, many instances become clear. Cheers, RHB ******************************* Rhio H. Barnhart Head of the Music Department Library University of California, Davis, CA 95616 rhbarnhart@ucdavis.edu ******************************* ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 09:47:53 +0100 (CET) From: "omezzab@tin.it" To: Subject: R: AEL Help needed re isolating each clause in a text Dear John, this is my rule of thumb. It seems to me that Egyptian sentences are very short. Usually three words (but you have to add possible particles) [let's call it "section"] or two sections. There may be more than two sections, but that is an exception. So if you try to read the hieroglyphs keeping that in mind that may be a helpful tool. (possible adjustments may be needed though). I found that while recording "The tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor" which I thought it was composed using a "three-tempoed" form. In fact I find that almost every text I read has the same basic structure. Presently I am doing experiments with the Kamose stele (with the invaluable help of Marianne Luban) and I find the same construction. I wouldn't bet on this theory, but as a tool it seems to work. For me it does. Just try and see. Bye Orlando Mezzabotta ============================================================================== From: "Brian Yare" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL Help needed re isolating each clause in a text Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 16:56:40 -0000 Very good, but why call them sections? In English, the terms phrases and clauses would probably cover these parts of sentences. A phrase or clause can usually take the place of a single part of speech. Sorry to keep it so simple! Brian Yare Worcester, UK ==============================================================================