From: "A.P. de Visser" To: Subject: AEL The Spoliation of the tombs Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:19:30 +0100 Dear members In the reading-book by Budge this is the title of one of his texts he transcribed in hieroglyphs.Could somebody inform me about the origin of this text,because Budge himself is silent about this. Regards Bram de Visser ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 19:50:17 -0500 From: Jerzy Prus Subject: Re: AEL The Spoliation of the tombs To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Dear Sir, Budge inform about this text on page XVI, is available on internet http://www.archive.org/stream/egyptianreadingb00budgiala#page/xvi/mode/2up More information about pap. Abbot is at the work Eric T. PEET, The Great Tomb Robberies of the Twentieth Egyptian Dynasty, Oxford 1930, II, pl.I-IV. Regards, Jerzy Prus ============================================================================== From: "Marianne Luban" Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 18:45:02 GMT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: Re: AEL The Spoliation of the tombs ---------- Original Message ---------- From: "A.P. de Visser" To: Subject: AEL The Spoliation of the tombs Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 17:19:30 +0100 >Dear members >In the reading-book by Budge this is the title of one of his texts he >transcribed in hieroglyphs.Could somebody inform me about the origin of this >text,because Budge himself is silent about this. It is the Papyrus Abbott, details of which here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbott_Papyrus Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 15:10:34 -0600 Subject: AEL Negating noun phrases From: Greg Davidson To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk I'm working on a project, but am having trouble figuring out how to negate noun phrases in a participle statement and was hoping someone could help me out here. What I'm trying to say is: "He who says 'I am experienced' is experienced in nothing." What I've come up with is: jn Dd 'jnk SsA' SsA.y m nj x.t. Now, Allen seems to indicate that this is how you would do it without a nn-wn construction. Hoch seems to indicate that you can only use a nn-wn construction. Loprieno says nj-js should be used, but says its use is restricted to adverbials and focused subjects. Can anybody tell me how to negate x.t while still maintaining the participle statement structure, which I want to keep for the sake of parallelism? Thanks. -- Greg Davidson gdavidson3@gmail.com ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 19:33:54 +0000 (UTC) From: hebsed@comcast.net To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL The Spoliation of the tombs I believe it is the "confession" of the Herakleopolitan ruler about the destruction of tombs in the Thinite nome in the 1st intermediate period by his armies. This is often taken to be the burning and looting of the 1st and 2nd dynasty pharaohs' tombs at Abydos, although the actual tombs are not mentioned specifically. Al Berens hebsed@comcast.net Berens Graphics President American Research Center in Egypt No. CA Chapter When the sun god is angry with a land he places the fools in charge of the wise. From the Wisdom of Ankhsheshonqy ============================================================================== From: "Brian Yare" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL The Spoliation of the tombs Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 18:43:51 -0000 > > Dear members > > In the reading-book by Budge this is the title of one of his texts he transcribed in hieroglyphs. Could somebody inform me about the origin of > this text, because Budge himself is silent about this. > > Regards Bram de Visser Bram If you look at the Contents of this book, you will see that Budge does indeed give the source of this text. I have placed it below, from the pdf edition published by ourselves. You will find a very good translation of this in Peet, T. E. (1930) The Great Tomb Robberies of the Egyptian Twentieth Dynasty (2 volumes), also available as pdf files. Brian Yare Yare Egyptology http://www.yare.org/egypt ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2009 19:40:04 +0100 From: Vincent Euverte To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL The Spoliation of the tombs Dear Bram, In the table of contents of the Budge's reading book, you may find some information regarding the Abbott papyrus (BM 10221), as well as some bibliographic references about the text (Birch, Chabas, Masp=E9ro). On Internet, using the British Museum reference, you will find many more.= I hope this will help. Regards, /*Vincent Euverte, Rosette Project*/* web = http://vincent.euverte.free.fr Projet Rosette : http://projetrosette.info * ============================================================================== From: "A.P. de Visser" To: Subject: AEL The spoliation of the tombs Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:41:15 +0100 Dear members Many thanks for your reactions on my question.I knew from Budge that his transcription came from the Abbott Papyrus,but was especially curious about the period from which this originated. Kind regards Bram de Visser ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 22:19:01 -0500 Subject: Re: AEL Negating noun phrases From: John Corridan To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Hi Greg: I'm self-taught, so take what I say with a grain of salt. My apologies in advance if I misunderstand your question. Are you really trying to negate a noun phrase here? It looks like you are trying to negate the verb, or negate a participle. And it looks like your transliteration negates a single noun, "x.t". If the subject, loosely stated, is "one who says 'I am experiended", and you are trying to say that this person is "NOT experienced", by using a participial statement, then perhaps: jn Dd jnk sSA.f tm.f sSA m x.t (one who says 'I am one-who-he-is experienced' IS THE ONE who he-is-not experience in things) Or, if not expressed as a participial statement, you could maybe negate the verb: nj SsA Dd SsA.f m x.t (is experiened-NOT, one who says that he is experienced, in things). Allen does say such use of the imperfective in a noun clause is rare (page 272). In any event, I think you might need the ".f" suffix after "sSA" (see Allen, page 273, example 3). I took for granted that the verb "sSA" is exactly what you want, and that "m x.t" (rather than, say, "r x.t" is correct). Best wishes, John Corridan ============================================================================== From: "Marianne Luban" Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 17:21:25 GMT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: Re: AEL The spoliation of the tombs ---------- Original Message ---------- From: "A.P. de Visser" To: Subject: AEL The spoliation of the tombs Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:41:15 +0100 >Many thanks for your reactions on my question.I knew from Budge that his >transcription came from the Abbott Papyrus,but was especially curious about >the period from which this originated. It's a very interesting document for several reasons. Although many of the tombs of the former kings are "gmy wDAy" or "found intact", most of them are pre-18th Dynasty--but one--and that is the tomb of Amenhotep I, whose location is given somewhere on what is now called Dra Abu el-Naga. Some other interesting points are that the tomb of the children of Ramesses II [possibly KV5] was found to be devoid of burials and that all the tombs of the nobles on Sheikh Abd el-Qurna had already been violently despoiled. Of course that wasn't quite true, but that's how the situation looked to this royal commission. One has to wonder why the tombs of most of the 18th and 19th Dynasty pharaohs aren't mentioned in this text. Was it taken for granted that they had all been robbed long ago? But a kind of scapegoat was found in the pAbbott, a workman attached to a funerary temple on the West Bank near the Theban necropolis, evidently the son of a foreigner and perhaps an Egyptian woman. Much was written about his interrogation but, in the end, nothing valuable could be gotten out of him as far as tomb-robbing was concerned and he "swore by the ruler" that he knew nothing. The great officials "gave breath" to the workman in the following of the High Priest of Amun or rather had mercy on him and let him go. I found it interesting that the word for "thieves" which is "iTAw" in the text has as a determinative T14, the sign usually employed to denote "foreigner". Checking the word in Faulkner for early attestations, I see this wasn't always the case. Faulkner points to "The Eloquent Peasant" as a source and also the Book of the Dead. but has no T14 in his examples. Marianne Luban Author of "The Exodus Chronicles: Beliefs, Legends & Rumors from Antiquity Regarding the Exodus of the Jews from Egypt", Second Edition, New and Revised (2008) http://tinyurl.com/5kbywp ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 13:35:30 +0000 (GMT) From: bert_hramm Subject: Re : AEL Negating noun phrases To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Hi Greg, What about using the relative jwty, which is often translated "that which does not exist". I'm a student in egyptology, but still quite a beginner. Moreover, I'm French and don't use neither Allen nor Loprieno nor Gardiner, but Malaise-Winand (Grammaire raisonn=E9e de l'=E9gyptien classique). But, first of all, I think you should analyse your sentence, in syntaxic units. As I understand your sentence in English, here is my analysis: - "He who says 'I'm experienced'": you have here the subject of your sentence, what MALAISE-WINAND call the th=E8me. - "is experienced in nothing": here is the predication of your sentence (the MALAISE-WINAND's rh=E8me). Let's go deeper... Deep breath before the plunge. Ready ? ^^ - Your th=E8me contains a pseudoverbal form ("He who says") and a quote; both can (should ?) be rendered by an aorist form, a participle for "He who says", and a adverbial predication for the quote. E.g.: Ddw jw.j m SsA -Explanations: -- Ddw is an aorist active participle and means "He who says"; perfectly what you need; --jw.j m SsA: typical adverbial predication, with the preposition m which signifies "as"; litteraly: "I am as experienced". - Your rh=E8me, now: you can use here also an aorist form, i.e. SsA(w).f m jwty. So, your sentence could be translated as follows:Ddw jw.j m SsA SsA(w).f m iwty. That's word-to-word translation anyway. I wonder if egyptian won't rather negate the verbal form, which would give: Ddw jw.j m SsA n SsA.n.f. The aorist is negated by n + sDm.n.f (Gunn rule). Hoping it could have helped a bit. :) Regards, Bertrand Gajeot ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:27:09 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL The spoliation of the tombs Marianne Luban a écrit : ... > > > I found it interesting that the word for "thieves" which is "iTAw" in the text has as a > determinative T14, the sign usually employed to denote "foreigner". Checking the word in > Faulkner for early attestations, I see this wasn't always the case. Faulkner points to > "The Eloquent Peasant" as a source and also the Book of the Dead. but has no T14 in his examples. > > > Marianne Luban > In fact, the actual writing for thief in Abbot is is i-TA-A-D51:D40:A1. This is the regular writing in late Egyptian, from the verb TAy, "to take" (G47-G1-M17-M17-D40). There is no notion of "foreigner" at all. The "T14" sign is in fact D51, probably originally an ideogram at first (another meaning of TAy being "to carve", the sign might mark the notion of scratching. See Gardiner, EG, p. 456. However, the D51 sign is sometimes simplified to the extend that it look indeed like an horizontal T14. Best regards, S. Rosmorduc ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 15:17:04 -0500 (EST) From: Grant Hicks To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Negating noun phrases Greg, Another autodidact here, so get your salt shaker out. It looks to me like what you're looking for is an Egyptian equivalent of German "kein". I don't know if such a thing exists, but it's possible to translate your sentence without it and retain its parallelism. My attempt: jr Ddj jw.f SsA.kw nj SsA.f rssj "As for one saying 'I am experienced', he is not experienced at all." Here (using Allen's terms) _Ddj_ is an imperfective active participle, SsA.kw is the stative, _nj SsA.f_ is the negated perfective, and _rssj_ (variously also _rsj_, _rssy_) is an adverb meaning "entirely, at all". From what I can see, SsA (Allen's sSA) is an adjective-verb with meanings such as "be wise", "be skilled (in)", and so forth, and it seems to me that the best way to represent the sense of the English word "experienced" using this verb is to put it in the stative, implying that the speaker's state of wisdom or skill is the result of earlier events (i.e., the experience itself). I'm a little unsure about the negated perfective in the last clause. When discussing the negated stative in Ch. 17, Allen merely says that the stative "is normally replaced by another verb form in negated sentences" without specifying what verb form that might be. If he identifies it later in the book, I haven't found it. (I looked in Gardiner too.) I chose the negated perfective by analogy with the verb _rx_, which appears in the stative to mean "know(s)" (e.g. "has/have learned") and in the negated perfective to mean "do(es) not know" ("has/have not learned"). m Htp, Grant ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 15:35:57 -0800 (PST) From: sonofthemummy Subject: Re: Re : AEL Negating noun phrases To: Ancient Egyptian Language List See Zaba's line 111 of PtahHotep for a model of how sentiments regarding "the man who says" can be expressed. ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:07:29 -0600 Subject: Re: AEL Negating noun phrases From: Greg Davidson To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Thanks gentlemen, but after reading Loprieno more thoroughly, I think I have it figured out. First things first. I am not trying to negate the statement as a whole for two reasons. First, I'm trying to get something along the lines of "He who says I am experienced is not experienced in a _single_ thing." In other words, a certain level of focus on the fact that there is nothing in which the person is experienced. I'm not trying to say "It is not NP who is experienced," which would be negated in the standard fashion for participle statements: nj jn NP js SsA. The difference between the two is in the scope of negation and the pragmatics of the two statements. The second reason is for parallelism's sake. The following line is jn Dd jw=j sbA~kw xm x.t nb.t, "It is he who says I am taught who is ignorant of all things." I'd like to keep parallel participle statements for stylistic reasons. So, what have I come up with? Well, I realized after thinking about it that one level of focus I want is on the adverbial. I'm trying to say "It is NP who is experienced _not in a (single) thing_. In other words, I'm trying to come up with a statement that has high focus on NP and, at the same time, that a listener could hear and in no way think that there was something that NP was experienced in. It seems to me, then, that the proper form of my statement, based on what Loprieno says, is jn Dd jnk SsA SsA.y nj-js m x.t, with nj-js preceding the adverbial. However, this is sufficiently complicated that I'm still not 100% certain I have it right. If someone has a different opinion, I'd still like to hear it. This translation attempt has made me keenly aware of how complicated Egyptian negation is, in large part because of how wrapped up it is in pragmatics. -- Greg Davidson gdavidson3@gmail.com ============================================================================== From: "Marianne Luban" Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 19:54:02 GMT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: Re: AEL The spoliation of the tombs ---- Message ---------- From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL The spoliation of the tombs Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 17:27:09 +0100 Marianne Luban a =E9crit : ... > > >> I found it interesting that the word for "thieves" which is "iTAw" in the text has as a determinative T14, the sign >>usually employed to denote "foreigner". Checking the word in Faulkner for early attestations, I see this wasn't >>always the case. Faulkner points to "The Eloquent Peasant" as a source and also the Book of the Dead. but has >>no T14 in his examples. >In fact, the actual writing for thief in Abbot is is i-TA-A-D51:D40:A1. >This is the regular writing in late Egyptian, from the verb >TAy, "to take" (G47-G1-M17-M17-D40). There is no notion of "foreigner" >at all. >The "T14" sign is in fact D51, probably originally an ideogram at first >(another meaning of TAy being "to carve", the sign might mark the notion >of scratching. See Gardiner, EG, p. 456. However, the D51 sign is >sometimes simplified to the extend that it look indeed like an >horizontal T14. You're right but, unfortunately, the only hieroglyphic copy I have of the pAbbott is the one in Budge's reading book and there he definitely has T14, exactly the same determinative he has in the word "mDAy" on the very same page. Perhaps, in the hieratic text, Budge read D51 as T14--I don't know--but I can't get too mad at him because, if it weren't for his little book [which is supposed to be for beginners and that's odd in itself because some of the texts are not very easy at all] I wouldn't have been able to see what this text was all about. In fact, it is one of those that I went over so many times [as I once suggested others do] so that I could finally read it from start to finish without any problems. Yet that determinative did raise a question in my mind and I am glad I asked about it. Thanks. Marianne Luban http://thetimetravelerreststop.blogspot.com/ ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2009 17:03:21 -0800 (PST) From: sonofthemummy Subject: Re: AEL Negating noun phrases To: Ancient Egyptian Language List --- On Fri, 11/20/09, Greg Davidson wrote: This translation attempt has made me keenly aware of how complicated Egyptian negation is, in large part because of how wrapped up it is in pragmatics. == Hi; This is a good parallel of my initial thoughts on the matter. The value system of the scribe traditionally resisted anything that might trigger discord. In frowning upon a certain bearing, he might chose to be discreet and indirect. I think in translating English into Egyptian, we have to consider what statements might be in or out of harmony with Egyptian logic or decorum, and ask ourselves how the thought would arise within their experience-affirmative world view; and then what customs would come into play when forming an admonition. In this case, my guess would be that the writer would try to discourage the over-representation of a man's expertise, perhaps by taking a more positive posture in trying to encourage modesty about ones accomplishments. The Egyptian literature I have seen seems to make a conscious effort to steer clear of any sentiment that could be construed as bitter, unless there was clearly a wrong to be righted or a jest to be made at someone pretentious. Bob ==============================================================================