From: "A.P. de Visser" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL PtahHotep Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 10:23:23 +0100 Hi Bob I am very glad with your PtahHotep-text, which I have put beside my Budge and for the translation comparing with Lichtheim and the French text by Vernus. Now my question:<332> sHry s r sxm ArwD s;your translation is: . I do not understand because I can not find this back in the Egyptian text. Lichtheim translates: . This follows the text anyhow more literally. Kind regards Bram de Visser -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: owner-AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk [mailto:owner-AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk] Namens Robert Myers Verzonden: zondag 25 oktober 2009 18:32 Aan: Ancient Egyptian Language List Onderwerp: AEL PtahHotep Hi; One thing we might consider trying is to look at the maxims in some order other than linear: to take the more interesting or difficult ones, earlier. Here is my PDF of the text/transliteration/translation: http://www.scribd.com/doc/21403019/PtahHotep Since it's the work of a non-expert, there should be plenty in there to call into question. Sincerely, Bob ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 09:10:42 -0600 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL PtahHotep 332 Hi; Here is what Zaba has for line 332: |10,11-s-Hr:r-Aa19-N31:z-r-sxm-m-A24-A-r:d-+i(sic)+s-i-s I am reading not a pronoun at the end of the line, but: [is] enclitic particle. {M17-S29} Dickson, p. 142 ============================================================================== Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 08:43:23 -0600 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL PtahHotep Hi; Good question. Maybe we can achieve a more refined translation. On p. 226 of Paul Dickson's PDF dictionary based on Faulkner, I found: [sHri] (caus.) remove, exorcise (ill), drive away (foes), avert (face), deliver (from). {S29-D2-D21-M17-V19-Y1} and on p. 79: [Ar] drive away, oppress. {G1-D21-T12- A24} So, my thinking is that PtahHotep has no wish to arbitrarily constrain or thwart a wife (judging from his surrounding comments), but to teach the husband to take the responsibilities upon himself, perhaps with the attitude of a gentleman who says, "Now, don't worry your pretty head about this, My Dear." But, this comes from looking at Ar as an adjective, which may be a mistake. If it is a second imperative verb, the meaning could be more coarse. Best regards, Bob ============================================================================== From: "Michael Tilgner" To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL Source of quote Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 23:46:40 +0100 Rhio H. Barnhart wrote: > Would some kind soul point me towards the original source for the > "Harper's Song" that begins: > "Spend the day merrily. Put unguent and fine oil together to thy > nostrils. Set singing and music before thy face. Cast all evil behind > thee, and bethink thee only of joy. Till comes that day of mooring in > the land that loveth silence." This is an inexact citation from: Adolf Erman, The Literature of Ancient Egyptians: Poems, Narratives, and Manuals of Instruction from the Third and Second Millenia B.C., Newy York, 1927, p. 252 [reprinted by Dover in 1995] http://books.google.de/books?id=tOnCEC8vhS4C Erman is citing in parts from the hieroglyphic text: W. Max M=FCller, Die Liebespoesie der alten =C4gypter, Leipzig, 1899 [there was a 2nd unrev. ed. in 1932], pl. 1. M=FCller has a German translation on pp. 31-33. This text [Neferhotep I] is from the tomb of Neferhotep (TT 50) of the reign of Haremhab; more information: PM I, 1 (2), 95-97. You may find M=FCller's source in: Johannes Duemichen, Historische Inschriften alt=E4gyptischer Denkm=E4ler, Zweite Folge, Leipzig, 1869, pl. XL http://digitalgallery.nypl.org//nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=1019659&imageID=1543174&parent_id=1019565&word=&snum=&s=¬word=&d=&c=&f=&k=0&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&total=80&num=40&imgs=20&pNum=&pos=46 The latest publication: Robert Hari, La tombe th=E9baine du p=E8re divin Neferhotep (TT50), Gen=E8ve, 1985 A more modern treatment in English is by Miriam Lichtheim, The Songs of the Harpers, in: JNES 4, pp. 195-197 (1945) with a photograph of the hieroglyphic text on pl. VII A parallel of the Neferhotep texts - but not this passage - is discussed in: L=E1szl=F3 K=E1kosy, Zolt=E1n Imre F=E1bi=E1n, Harper's Song in the Tomb of Djehutimes (TT 32), in: SAK 22, pp. 211-225 (1995). Best wishes, Michael Tilgner ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2009 11:44:21 +0100 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Source of quote Michael Tilgner a écrit : > > Rhio H. Barnhart wrote: > >> Would some kind soul point me towards the original source for the >> "Harper's Song" that begins: To complement Michael Tilgner's mail, I will add that the text of Neferhotep's harper son in included in JSesh text base (from Hari's edition). Best regards, S. Rosmorduc ============================================================================== From: "usher@easynet.co.uk" To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2009 07:05:38 -0400 Subject: Re: AEL Source of quote Further to the posting from Serge and Michael on this topic - some among the group may like to know that this text (here called 'The Harper's Lament') makes an appearance in a book of texts by Wallis Budge entitled 'First Steps in Egyptian'. There is a section on basic grammar followed by around thirty texts in all - most of them are quite short and thus make themselves useful when one wants something to practice on for only a short time. 'The Harper's Lament' can be found on pages 138 - 140 (as published in Stern, Aegyptische Zeitschrift, 1873, p. 60). I believe the hieroglyphs have been accurately transcribed and they come together with Budge's transliteration (somewhat outmoded now, of course) and a fairly rough and literal translation which can be improved upon. The book, along with others like it, is freely available for download at:- http://www.72languages.com/Egyptian_Budge_First_Steps_in_Egyptian.pdf Anyone interested can also check out the other links at the same time... http://www.72languages.com/pdfs/ http://www.72languages.com/inprogress/ Best regards to you all, Raymond A. Usher-Cooper. [usher@easynet.co.uk] ==============================================================================