From: "Jenny Carrington" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep - lines 573-574 Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 15:50:19 +1100 Hi Bob, Here's my take on lines 573-574. (573) dwA rx r smnt.f The wise man rises early in order that he endure, ** 'dwA' would be a verb here, 'to rise early' (sDm.f form). Followed by r+infinitive which describes purpose. 'smnt' is a causative 2-lit verb - to establish, to make endure. (Or perhaps 'to succeed' might be appropriate here.) (Forms of Infinitive - see Allen's Grammar p. 160) (574) iw wxA mDd.f the ignorant is hard pressed. **The particle 'iw' introduces adverbial sentences, and is used before a nominal subject. It marks a statement which is temporarily true, ie. the ignorant man might not always be ignorant. I prefer to translate wxA as 'ignorant' rather than as 'fool'. The ignorant simply does not know (temporarily true), whereas the fool chooses to not know or is incapable of knowing (always true). (Allen p.110) ** 'mDd' - the first determinative is supposed to represent warp threads between two stakes. I wondered also about a wine press. Either way pressure seems to be the operative word. The ignorant man is kept pressed down and has little chance to advance his station in life. Faulkner quotes P.Prisse 'the fool is hard-hit'. m Htp Jenny ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Myers" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2009 8:10 AM Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep > I have been wondering how to get a flawless rendering of lines 573 and > 574: > dwA rxi r smt.f > iw wxAi mDd.f > > Is it: > The morning of the wise one will be his reestablisment > While the fool will become laden > > or maybe: > In the morning, the wise one will reinvent himself > But the fool is destined to get pushed around > > ? Sorry if that sounds naive. > I am wondering if iw...mDd.f is a iw sDm.f type of construction that > could indicate a future, continuing action, or something like that? > Bob > > ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 04:33:08 -0500 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep - lines 573-574 Jenny Carrington wrote: > > Hi Bob, > > Here's my take on lines 573-574. > > (573) dwA rx r smnt.f > The wise man rises early in order that he endure, > > ** 'dwA' would be a verb here, 'to rise early' (sDm.f form). Followed > by r+infinitive which describes purpose. 'smnt' is a causative 2-lit > verb - to establish, to make endure. (Or perhaps 'to succeed' might be > appropriate here.) (Forms of Infinitive - see Allen's Grammar p. 160) The verb dwA seems connected with words for "praise", indicating perhaps an important connection between dawn and prayer in Egyptian praxis? Here, it seems that smnt suggests that the man creates the conditions conducive to success. It seems somewhat reminiscent of the adage about "early to rise". The Egyptian precursor? saying seems somehow more practical. > > (574) iw wxA mDd.f > the ignorant is hard pressed. > > **The particle 'iw' introduces adverbial sentences, and is used before > a nominal subject. It marks a statement which is temporarily true, ie. > the ignorant man might not always be ignorant. I prefer to translate > wxA as 'ignorant' rather than as 'fool'. The ignorant simply does not > know (temporarily true), whereas the fool chooses to not know or is > incapable of knowing (always true). (Allen p.110) That makes sense. I guess it is appropriately less judgmental, indicating that the person is uninformed, less than skilled, or mistaken more than stubbornly heedless. > ** 'mDd' - the first determinative is supposed to represent warp > threads between two stakes. I wondered also about a wine press. Either > way pressure seems to be the operative word. The ignorant man is kept > pressed down and has little chance to advance his station in life. > Faulkner quotes P.Prisse 'the fool is hard-hit'. Hard pressed seems spot on. The learned one stays on top of his game, while the not so learned one gets behind. The Aa24 to me appears to be a pair of baskets that one would see slung over the back of a donkey, but this may just be my imagination. But, if it is so, I suspect that it may indicate that if one doesn't work smarter, one has to work harder. Thanks! This is wonderful. ============================================================================== From: "Marianne Luban" Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 18:38:46 GMT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep - lines 573-574 lines... 24. bw nfr xpr m bw bin " good becomes as bad" is what this literally means. "bw" is one of those strange terms linked to other words such as "bw-nb" meaning "all people" or "bw-dw" meaning "the worst". Sometimes "bw"has a negative connotation such as in "bw-pwy" meaning "not". It is not easy to tell how the Egyptians viewed this "bw" but it appears to have an emphatic usage, in this case conveying that there isn't a blessed thing that old age doesn't destroy and it is no respecter of beauty or any "goodly" aspect of a person. But let it be "what was good becomes bad". 25. dpt nbt Aq-sy "All taste vanishes" I'm not sure why it was thought that old-age renders one unable to taste but that's what it seems to say and the determinative of the tongue is present. Because "dpt" is feminine, it is "she" that vanishes and that's why you see "sy" after the verb "Aq", which has to do with losing and disappearing. Another example is "pHti Hr Aq" meaning "strength is on the wane". 26. irit iAwy n rT Here is an infinitive "irit" meaning, literally, "is doing old age to people". "iAwy" is a noun, of course. It just means "age" but it is quite plain that "old age" is intended. "iAwy nfr wrt" is how one says "great old age". I would have to translate this as "What old age does to people" because... 27. of the next line being "bin m xt nbt" or "[is] evil in all things" or "all ways". Even though there are signs of plurality after "xt", it is just "xt nbt". Marianne Luban ============================================================================== From: "A.P. de Visser" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep - lines 573-574 Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 13:52:38 +0200 Hi Marianne A small remark about yourlast translation. 26. irit iAwy n rT.You call an infitive,but I wonder if we have to do here with a relative form; the main clause is starting then with 27. .Your translation corresponds with a relative form. Regards Bram de Visser ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 00:43:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Weben Banu Subject: AEL Astronomical Frieze of Edfu To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Hello all! I'm working on the astronomical frieze(s) from the Edfu temple- Plates IV and V from Richard Parker's The Calendars of Ancient Egypt. Some of the names I can figure out, but others are written in abbreviated forms- and I don't seem to have a dictionary which would list Edfu's version of the 36 decans, names of the days of the waxing moon, and names of the days of the lunar month (with associated deities). All of these (and more!) are included on the plates, but with no translation- and I'm feeling a little defeated. Does anyone know where I might find a translation to check what I have and help me along with what is beyond me? Many thanks, Katherine Michael ============================================================================== From: "Marianne Luban" Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 20:04:51 GMT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: RE: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep - lines 573-574 ---------- Original Message ---------- From: "A.P. de Visser" >Hi Marianne >A small remark about yourlast translation. >26. irit iAwy n rT.You call an infitive,but I wonder if we have to >do here with a relative form; the main clause is starting then with 27.m xt nbt> .Your translation corresponds with a >relative form. I'm not sure about that and can't disagree. You may be right. But I don't know why I put the extra /i/ in "irt". Marianne Luban ============================================================================== From: DAaron1347@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2009 23:21:47 EDT Subject: Re: AEL hieroglyphic font (Aegyptus) To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Does this font still exist. The URL seems to be broke. Thanks Dennis ============================================================================== From: Rhio Barnhart To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL hieroglyphic font (Aegyptus) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 09:20:30 -0700 Dennis et al, The font does indeed still exist and has been very recently updated. The URL is http://users.teilar.gr/~g1951d/ Macintosh users note: This font, along with numerous other OTF fonts does not work with the new Mac OS Snow Leopard (10.6). I discovered this when my biliterals page (http://music.ucdavis.edu/RHBHome/Biliterals.html) no longer displayed the glyphs. This is a beautiful font and I believe George has added some control characters to allow cadrat formatting although I have not tried this feature. Regards, RHB ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 09:14:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Grant Hicks To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL hieroglyphic font (Aegyptus) The URL has changed, but the font is still available at http://users.teilar.gr/~g1951d/ - Grant ============================================================================== Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 11:13:47 +0000 (GMT) From: ANGELA MANN Subject: Re: AEL hieroglyphic font (Aegyptus) To: Ancient Egyptian Language List If you delete 'download.html' from the URL it works. Best wishes Angela ============================================================================== From: g mvts To: Subject: RE: AEL hieroglyphic font (Aegyptus) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2009 09:58:44 -0400 I am able to reach this URL and to download Aegyptus: http://users.teilar.gr/~g1951d/ Michael Van Ty Smith ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 08:41:37 +1100 Bram de Visser wrote: >>26. irit iAwy n rT.You call an infitive,but I wonder if we have >>to do here with a relative form; the main clause is starting then with >>27. .Your translation corresponds with a >>relative form. Marianne Luban wrote: >I'm not sure about that and can't disagree. You may be right. But I don't >know why >I put the extra /i/ in "irt". === My thought was that 'irt' would be infinitive, (which refers to action without reference to tense, mood, aspect or voice). It could be translated "Old age is doing to people evil in every respect." Regarding relative forms: the perfective relative is spelled 'ir' - 'which he made' and the imperfective relative 'irr' - 'which he makes'. (No 't' there.) sDmt.f form = future relative. Since he is speaking from experience as an old man, I don't think our sentence would have future meaning. Note: 'rT' - 'people', has an 'm' in it - rmT. m Htp Jenny ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 12:30:10 -0500 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL PtahHotep: 28-35 Hi; One of the most disturbing lines in the work to translate, to me, has been line 35. Further on in the text, bAk appears as what seems to me a transitive verb meaning, "govern", advising a man in teaching his son. And, the idea that PtahHotep would say that the Two Shores should serve the Pharaoh seems very much against what I have seen of the Egyptians' own view of the character of kingship. In Sanskrit, bhakti exists as a word meaning "devotional service". In Egyptian, bAk seems to mean "work" or "work for", but the performance of proper duty according to ones station seems to be implicit. Any thoughts? Here is the JSesh MdC of the text, transliteration, and translation that I have, so far: +i28+s-wD-w&t-Y1:n-bA:k-A1-i-m-|5.3-ir:t-S43A-A19-A1-! +twD tw n bAk im irit mdw-iAwy+s-! +lOrder that our apprentice, here, serve as a "staff of old age";+s-! +i[29]+s-D37:t*W-aHa-a:D54-aq-A1-A1-m-st-t:pr-A1-! +trdi.tw aHa aqwy m st.i+s-! +lThat he may be permitted to stand functionally in my place,+s-! +i30+s-i-x:Y1-D&d-A1-N35:f-S43A-d:W-A2-sDm-m-i-i-w-A1:Z2B-! +tix Dd.i n.f mdw sDmyw+s-! +lAnd so may I speak to him the words of the auditors,+s-! +i31+s-z:x:r-w-Y1:3-imi-m-w-Z3-HAt:t*1-! +tzxrw imyw HAt+s-! +lAnd the designs of the originators:+s-! +i32+s-p&pA-A&y-W:Z2B-sDm-m-R8A-! +tpAyw sDmw n nTrw+s-! +lThe matters heard among the gods,+s-! +i[32a]+s-pA-A-i-i-W:Z2B-bA:k-w-A24-n-tp*p:W-Z3-a:1-Sps-Z3-! +tpAyw bAkw n tpyw aw+s-! +lThat were put into effect by the first chiefs.+s-! +i33+s-i-x:Y1-ir:t-N35:k-|5.4-mi-t*t:Y1-! +tix iritw n.k mitt+s-! +lIndeed, this may serve for you as well,+s-! +i34+s-d:r-A24-t&w-V49-N35:nw*W-G37:3-m-r:x-i-i-t&rxyt-A1*B1:3-! +tdr.tw Snw m rxyt+s-! +lThat sufferings may be subdued for the people,+s-! +i35+s-bA:k-A24-N35:k-N20:N20-w&y-! +tbAk n.k idbwy+s-! +lAs you govern the two shores.+s-! ============================================================================== From: "Marianne Luban" Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 17:40:46 GMT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep The following lines are rather difficult, but I'll try to transliterate them and give a translation. Anyone having a grammatical explanation, please feel free to supply it. Lines..... 28. imi wD=tw n bAk im irt mdw iAwy I had to consult Lichtheim to see what she made of this phrase and she has "May this servant be ordered to make a staff of old age" I suppose "imi" is an imperative like "rdi" and can literally amount to "let one order to the servant" [bAk]. The following "im" is probably better left untranslated as per Lichtheim but could mean "there" as in "that servant there". "mdw" is the staff and Lichtheim believes the "staff of old age" means a son or successor so as to teach him about what comes next, but all that harks back to the past, to the time of youth when the successor was begotten--not the present. BTW, the term "iri" [make] is always the one used for the act of the progenitor. One is "ms n" ones mother, but "iri n" ones father. 29. rDi-tw aHa bAkw m ist This looks to me like "give one then to the servants of the place" and, consulting Gardiner paragraph 477, I think "aHa" in this case is best left as "then". I do not know what the glyph of the "seated man" is doing after "ist". It doesn't seem to me it's a case of "my place". so....? 30. sbA=sw r mDt sDmyw "teach him so that he may tell the listeners" or literally "teach him for telling listeners". Miriam Lichtheim givesquite a loose translation of the last two lines. She renders "So as to tell him the words of those who are heard". This directly follows "the staff of old age" in her translation and she seemingly pays no attention to those servants in that place. In a footnote, she claims the "sDmyw" mean "judges" but I can't understrand her reasoning in this instance. 31. sxrw imiw HAt "the ways of the ancestors" That is why I believe the son must be taught the wisdom of the ancestors in order to instruct the servants of the "place" --whatever place that may be--or make discourse with them. If they are "judges", I am not sure what the old man's son would need to be telling them. As I said, these are difficult lines. "sxrw" can be "plans" but "ways" is best here. The "ancestors" are the "inhabitants" or "imiw" of "HAt", that is, "afore" [times]. Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 11:56:59 +0200 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep Jenny Carrington a écrit : > > My thought was that 'irt' would be infinitive, (which refers to action > without reference to tense, mood, aspect or voice). It could be > translated "Old age is doing to people evil in every respect." > > Regarding relative forms: the perfective relative is spelled 'ir' - > 'which he made' > and the imperfective relative 'irr' - 'which he makes'. (No 't' there.) > sDmt.f form = future relative. Since he is speaking from experience as > an old man, I don't think our sentence would have future meaning. > > Note: 'rT' - 'people', has an 'm' in it - rmT. > > m Htp > Jenny > In my version of Zaba's edition, it gives quite clearly ir:r*t-Z3A-i-A-W:y-A19-Y1:n-r:T-A1-B1:3 irr.wt iAw.t n rmT So, it's an imperfective participle. Best regards, S. Rosmorduc ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 11:50:20 +0200 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep A short note about the variants of Ptahotep. According to P. Vernus, L2 and the other late variants are heavily simplified versions of Ptahotep, to the point that in some places the order of the sentences is different in L2 and Prisse. Marianne Luban a écrit : > 29. rDi-tw aHa bAkw m ist > > This looks to me like "give one then to the servants of the place" and, > consulting Gardiner paragraph 477, I think "aHa" in this case is best > left as "then". I do not know what the glyph of the "seated man" is > doing after "ist". It doesn't seem to me it's a case of "my place". so....? > > What about di=tw aHa sA=i m s.t=i Note the spelling of the verb rdi, which marks the prospective. > 30. sbA=sw r mDt sDmyw > > sbA(=i) sw r ... Note that, strangely, Prisse has a simpler and plainer reading : ix Dd=i n=f md.w sDmy.w that I may tell him the words of the judges (P) that I may teach him the affairs of the judges If the ".t" in L2 is to be trusted, then L2 speaks about "the affairs of the judges", whereas Prisse tells of the "words of the judges". Well, sDmw is well known for judge. The problem is that it's a very ambiguous word. Basically it's "listener", but one can listen for many reasons: * a servants listen to his master, hence "servant" * a judge listen to the plaintifs. As Ptahotep is a vizier, and hence a judge, he is going to teach his son his job, and the wisdom that comes along being an egyptian official. for the following sentences : "pA" is not the article, nor the pronoun. It's the auxiliary verb "to do in the past", as participle : Prisse : pAy.w sDm m nTr.w "which (the words or the judges) where heard among the gods". L2 : pAy.w bAk n tpy.w-a In L2, as md.t is feminine, it's unlikely to be the antecedent of pAy.w (we would have pAy.wt) Hence the antecedent is sDm.w : "who worked for the ancestor". (in the case of L2, at least, it seems that sDmw here is more to be understood as "servant" than as "judge". But then, it's servants of the king, which makes the point mooter). ix ir=tw n=k mitt dr=tw Snw m rxy.t bAk n=k idb.wy Then one will do the same to you, suffering will be cast away from the people, so that the two land work for you. This is not really strange (considering that Ptahotep is now seen as a Middle Kingdom or First intermediate period work, not old kingdom). We have a number of other comments in wisdoms which explain that a happy people is a working people. In the loyalist teaching, it is said no to presure the people, lest they would flee. And to defend them, as "The people are those who create what exists", i.e. they produce the various goods the elite need. Best regards, S. Rosmorduc ============================================================================== From: "Marianne Luban" Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 17:54:03 GMT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Serge Rosmorduc >A short note about the variants of Ptahotep. >According to P. Vernus, L2 and the other late variants are heavily >simplified versions of Ptahotep, to the point that in some places the order >of the sentences is different in L2 and Prisse. I am happy with your comments but not with that website and its glyphs! They are small and hard to read and sometimes I can't tell one "bird" from another as drawn. I have been following L2 because it is at least consistently there [you will notice that sometimes the version above it has no corresponding line] and I do not know what the version below is. Is Prisse represented there? Which is Jenny following? She may have mentioned that, but I have forgotten. Which should we use? Marianne Luban a =E9crit : >> 29. rDi-tw aHa bAkw m ist >> >> This looks to me like "give one then to the servants of the place" and, consulting Gardiner paragraph 477, I >>think "aHa" in this case is best left as "then". I do not know what the glyph of the "seated man" is doing after "ist". >>It doesn't seem to me it's a case of "my place". so....? >What about > di=tw aHa sA=i m s.t=i >Note the spelling of the verb rdi, which marks the prospective. > 30. sbA=sw r mDt sDmyw > Okay, and it must be "sA=i" but that didn't make sense to me so I thought it must be a miswriting for "bAkw" or something. I did not expect a sudden change to this tense, becoming "my son" and "my place" or "seat". Was "st" ever transliterated as "ist" as in "Isis" in some bygone era? Somehow this stuck in my mind and I can't even find "st" with this sense in Hannig this morning even though I know you must be correct and it is there somewhere. :-( Marianne Luban ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 14:47:21 +0100 From: Carlos Moreira To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL flash cards for Egyptian--If You Really Want To Stan thanks for the link to those Anki decks. I'm using Collier and Manley's. Although useful, it is a pity that around 90% of the translations are either mispelt or wrong, glyphs unaligned and pages mentioned don't match those on the book most of the times. Even so, it is really a good attempt at producing an AE flashcard. kind regards Carlos Stan Thomas escreveu: > Here are several Anki flashcard decks. > > http://www.xmission.com/~sbthomas/anki/anki.html > http://ichi2.net/anki/ > > -Stan > ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 21:48:21 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep Marianne Luban wrote: >> A short note about the variants of Ptahotep. > >> According to P. Vernus, L2 and the other late variants are heavily >> simplified versions of Ptahotep, to the point that in some places >> the order >> of the sentences is different in L2 and Prisse. > > I am happy with your comments but not with that website and its > glyphs! They are small and hard to read and sometimes I can't tell one > "bird" from another as drawn. I have been following L2 because it is at > least consistently there [you will notice that sometimes the version > above it has no corresponding line] and I do not know what the version > below is. Is Prisse represented there? Which is Jenny following? She may > have mentioned that, but I have forgotten. Which should we use? Perhaps it would be well to pause and figure out what version of Ptahhotep everybody is working from ans come to some agreement. Jequier's publication of the original Prisse and several variants is available at http://archiv.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/propylaeumdok/volltexte/2009/366/ Stephen Fryer ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 15:45:54 -0500 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Line 29 +i[29]+s-D37:t*W-aHa-a:D54-G39-A1-A1-m-st-t:pr-A1-! +tdi.tw aHa zA.i m st.i+s-! +lAllow my son to stand in my place,+s-! May I ask; does the context require that we read di in this case, rather than rdi? ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 16:42:50 -0600 Subject: Re: AEL flash cards for Egyptian--If You Really Want To From: Stan Thomas To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Thanks Carlos. They are definitely pass zero. No better way to improve them than to get many eyes and minds at work. I hope that people will steal whatever is useful and make more and better sets. They represent only a day or two of my own effort. I used existing Hierowords decks and a few amazing software tools to do the job. Please make available any improvements. Just let me know if there is anything I can do. If you need me to correct images or anything else, just ask. -Stan ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 15:20:37 -0500 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep: Variant Texts Hi; Through the bulk of the text, it seems that the main variant text includes some words that the editor of P. Prisse found superfluous. But, at the end of the P. Prisse, it seems to me that the copy scribe is getting a bit knackered, and some of the lines truncated. In a few cases, the main variant text supplies what may be words omitted from P. Prisse, rather than superfluous adornments. When we come to the end, I think that may be an intriguing matter to consider. Bob ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 07:53:15 +1100 Hi Marianne, I've been using Zaba's glyphs on this website http://www.maat.sofiatopia.org/zaba01.htm On the first page, the first line has a (P) (Prisse) before the glyphs. Then follows L2 (Papyrus BM) and C (Carnarvon Tablet). Lines 2 and 3, are L2 and C only. Line 4 has Prisse (but is unmarked with the P) then L2 and C. So I am following Prisse only, which is the first in each line group, and no longer has the identifying marker (P). Jenny ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 08:43:42 +1100 Serge wrote: > In my version of Zaba's edition, it gives quite clearly > ir:r*t-Z3A-i-A-W:y-A19-Y1:n-r:T-A1-B1:3 > irr.wt iAw.t n rmT > So, it's an imperfective participle. Thanks Serge. I translated Prisse line 20,which has 'irt', and didn't look closely at line 26 (L2 and C). (Same line in translation.) So would it be a participle or infinitive in line 20? Being an earlier text, would the grammer have been different here? Jenny ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 12:07:48 +0200 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep Jenny Carrington a écrit : > > Serge wrote: >> In my version of Zaba's edition, it gives quite clearly >> ir:r*t-Z3A-i-A-W:y-A19-Y1:n-r:T-A1-B1:3 > >> irr.wt iAw.t n rmT > >> So, it's an imperfective participle. > > Thanks Serge. I translated Prisse line 20,which has 'irt', and didn't > look closely at line 26 (L2 and C). (Same line in translation.) So > would it be a participle or infinitive in line 20? Being an earlier > text, would the grammer have been different here? > > Jenny > > Well, Prisse has also ir:r*t-Z3A which should be read irr.t, because if you look at the forms of the verb iri in the text, you find that Prisse does not write the "r" when it's alone. Now, the spellings of iri are somehow problematic. There are basically two traditions. One which would spell ir = ir, and irr= ir;r ; the other would render ir = ir:r and irr = ir:r:r For instance Gardiner, § 357 (p. 274), for the active participle (ours is a passive participle, § 358, with the spelling ir:r) says : 'Make' shows two forms, both are to be read irr : ir:r is the commoner (Siut I, 315, Louvre C14, 2...) but ir:r:r is not infrequent (Louvre C 3....) See also Allen, p. 325 (23.7) "the verb jrj ... is normally spelled ir jr in the perfective and ir:r jrr in the imperfective, but a few texts use the spelling ir:r for the perfective jr and ir:r:r for the imperfective jrr". Now, in our case, Prisse is a middle kingdom papyrus, so its orthography can be trusted to be consistant. In 7, 8, about the self-made man (a respectable figure in Wisdom litterature), Prisse has i-n-nTr-Z1-ir-i-q:r-Y1:f "in nTr ir iqr=f" "it's the god who has made him rich", with a perfective participle spelled "ir" ( as an interesting aside, L2 has chosen to transform this specific sentence into a more general proverb, losing in the process some colour: in nTr ir:r iqr (not iqr=f) : it's the god who creates wealth" ) Best regards S. Rosmorduc ============================================================================== From: "Marianne Luban" Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 12:51:10 GMT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep ---------- Original Message ---------- From: "Jenny Carrington" >Hi Marianne, >I've been using Zaba's glyphs on this website >http://www.maat.sofiatopia.org/zaba01.htm Same here. But not easy on the eyes. Or maybe it *is* my eyes! I have nothing against artistic license, but some of those glyphs.... >On the first page, the first line has a (P) (Prisse) before the glyphs. Then >follows L2 (Papyrus BM) and C (Carnarvon Tablet). >Lines 2 and 3, are L2 and C only. >Line 4 has Prisse (but is unmarked with the P) then L2 and C. >So I am following Prisse only, which is the first in each line group, and no >longer has the identifying marker (P). Got it, thanks. Prisse it shall be. ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2009 12:50:54 +0200 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Line 29 Robert Myers a écrit : > > +i[29]+s-D37:t*W-aHa-a:D54-G39-A1-A1-m-st-t:pr-A1-! > +tdi.tw aHa zA.i m st.i+s-! > +lAllow my son to stand in my place,+s-! > > May I ask; does the context require that we read di in this case, > rather than rdi? > Normally, rdi would be spelled r:d. Plus, a subjunctive sDm=f fits the context rather well. It's quite usual to follow an imperative with subjunctive sDm=f. ( I have probably used "prospective" in one of my previous posts. It's a terminology problem, but from now on I'll try to stick to Allen's names. Dig the archives of AEL for some discussions about this question, or look at Allen's table §26.32 , p. 407. Allen's prospective for rdi is indeed rd=f) Best regards, S. Rosmorduc ==============================================================================