From: "Jenny Carrington" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Cc: Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 16:18:28 +1100 Minor correction: I wrote > However I'm not sure how accurate it is. I have noticed a different spelling in one word, a missing \\ after 'mAw' - renew, when compared with Zaba's version< That was on Bob's page, and the other two later versions in Zaba, not the "africawithin" site. Now, answering some of Bob's comments. >> ** anx Dt r nHH - I seem to remember this formula sometimes having 'di' >> at the beginning, and it makes sense to me that he is 'given' everlasting >> life by the gods. >Grammatically, is it possible that this (as is) could mean, "Living >forever, unto eternity"? There are probably as many variations as there are translations. I think yours is possible. Taking a look in Collier and Manley "How to Read Egyptian Hieroglyphs", there are the following examples (2.6 Dating, p.163): di anx mi ra Dt = given life like Re enduringly. anx Dt = living enduringly di anx Dt r nHH = given life enduringly and repeatedly. >> tni xpr iAw hAw >> The old man has come into being, old age has descended. >> >> **Subject-Stative construction where the subject (noun) is placed before >> the intransitive verb for emphasis. See Allen pp. 204, 226. >> Stative uses intransitive verbs, Perfect uses transitive. >Would a present tense rendering be feasible, like, "Maturity manifests and >old age arrives"? I don't think so, because the noun is at the beginning and must be Stative which is completed action. "Maturity manifests and old age arrives" is action in the process of happening which would use the Hr-Infinitive construction. (But I may have missed something. Anyone else?) >> wgg iw iHw Hr mAw >> Feebleness has come, weakness is renewing. >> >> **"Weakness is renewing" - like when he was a young child. >> Hr + infinitive, (expresses action in progress), often used in >> conjunction with Stative, (completed action). >I don't know if this would be technically fitting, but I have, "Misery and >weakness return afresh." wgg seems to suggest various kinds of strain for >which the subject is not fully prepared, perhaps including the kind >encountered by a tired man attempting to rise from sleep. I see this as a couplet of two separate clauses. wgg could be read as 'misery', but I like the way each part relates closely: feebleness/weakness, and old man/old age (in the previous line). m Htp Jenny ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 09:22:51 +1100 Hi Marianne, So far I am using the hieroglyphs on this site (for ease of use): http://www.africawithin.com/kemit/instruction_of_ptahhotep.htm However I'm not sure how accurate it is. I have noticed a different spelling in one word, a missing \\ after 'mAw' - renew, when compared with Zaba's version: http://www.maat.sofiatopia.org/zaba01.htm Also, just checking Budge's An Egyptian Hireoglyphic Reading Book, I find a few differences there as well. Perhaps we should use Zaba, noting that the variant lines are later writings. m Htp Jenny ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 13:09:50 -0700 From: Stephen Fryer To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep Jenny Carrington wrote: > Also, just checking Budge's An Egyptian Hireoglyphic Reading Book, I > find a few differences there as well. Having checked the beginning of Budge's hieroglyphic transcription against P. Prisse some years ago I decided that his transcriptions should be taken with a large sack of salt. His translation is extremely careless as well. Stephen Fryer ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 16:37:55 -0500 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep Jenny Carrington wrote: > Minor correction: I wrote > However I'm not sure how accurate it is. I > have noticed a different spelling in one word, a missing \\ after > 'mAw' - renew, when compared with Zaba's version< That was on Bob's > page, and the other two later versions in Zaba, not the "africawithin" > site. == I could be mistaken, but, the africawithin material seems to be a re-posting of the noted but incomplete? work by Matt Whealton, which was on a free page on which service was discontinued, last year. Also, the Rennes Egypto site has a TTT document in French of The Prophecy of Neferti. Best wishes, Bob ============================================================================== To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Rennes Egypto New Website From: "W Quarles" Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2009 15:35:34 +0800 Thank you Henri - your verb chart is particularly fine Koala On Sat, 03 Oct 2009 01:04:33 +0800, Henri Doranlo wrote: > Happy to annonce a new website "Rennes Egypto", created by Rennes > Egyptologie, actually in French, next year translated in English (I hope) > http://rennesegypto.free.fr/ > The website is specialised in Middle Egyptian language and all works are > available in PDF > > Best regards, > Henri ============================================================================== From: "Henri Doranlo" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Rennes Egypto New Website Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2009 15:09:28 +0200 About the chart, verbal-non varbal on website Rennes Egypto Thanks Koala, but take note the chart is purely synthetic and the language is diachronic "by nature", so be careful with the translation. You know, for instance, that the aorist (itératif, in linguistic terminology) is a good illustration in a diachronic view (see Vernus, Future at issue, about Sinuhe, p.182, ex. 394); see also BM 275, p.2, note 3 (on my website) about "jw=f r sdm"; idem on "jw=f m pr.t" ("il est sur le point de sortir-he is on the point of coming out", who latter means "il va sortir-he is on going to come out"). About the negation of aorist (itératif), "n sDm.n=f", the meaning changes with ground level : tranlation on the chart is only in foreground, but used in background the same negative verbal construction have a modal meaning (dénégation modale) like "nn sdm.n=f". A basic construction like "bAk pw" takes in charge the construction "nominal verbal sentence pw" (ex. "wnn bAk pw" and "wnn=f Hr sDm-without pw") used in gloses for normative explanation, strongly exclamative. With infinitive "sDm", the translation "entendre" is basic, and you know the past narrative "sDm N" at the begining of a sentence. The specific constructions like Cleft sentence, or "pr.t pw jr(w).n=f" and "pr.t pw jry" passive, for instance, cannot take place in this chart. It will be another work later, idem for interogative constructions. Best regards Henri ============================================================================== From: "Marco E. Chioffi - Archeologo" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Book of the Gates Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 09:18:05 +0200 Good morning to all. See the most updated translation of: Claude Carrier Grands Livres Fun=E9raires de l'=C9gypte Pharaonique, = Cybele, 2009. M.E. Chioffi member of the: Ass. Italiana Archeologi Subacquei Ass. d'=C9gyptologie ISIS Ass. Napoletana Studi Egittologici International Association of Egyptologists Institute of Nautical Archaeology Ist. Italiano Archeologia Etnologia Navale Istituto Italiano Civilt=E0 Egizia Ass. Nazionale Carabinieri ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2009 00:03:23 -0500 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep Hi; Also, Ms. Carrington et al, would it be okay to ask questions about PtahHotep from later maxims before we get to the full coverage? I think I have some fairly interesting questions. Bob ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2009 00:07:05 -0500 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep Stephen Fryer wrote: > > Jenny Carrington wrote: > >> Also, just checking Budge's An Egyptian Hireoglyphic Reading Book, I >> find a few differences there as well. > > Having checked the beginning of Budge's hieroglyphic transcription > against P. Prisse some years ago I decided that his transcriptions > should be taken with a large sack of salt. His translation is > extremely careless as well. > > Stephen Fryer > > No doubt. Thanks! One thing I do like about the Budge book, though, is that it comes with a handy vocabulary. It is a flawed book, but with some great stuff in it for the price of the Dover edition. I loved finding the curse on a book thief. Bob ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: "AEL" Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2009 23:15:15 +1100 Does anyone else have any lines they wish to send in? So we can compare notes. One line at a time will do. Any questions? If I can't answer them someone else will. I try to make my translations as literal as possible so as to retain the structure of the original. It helps to see how the constructions work, though I still find it difficult to remember the names of the constructions. Line numbers refer to P Prisse, as used in Zaba's transcription. Continuing: (10) sDr n.f Xdr ra nb (11) irty nDsw anxwy imrw Sleep (lying down) for him is uncomfortable every day. The eyes are dim, the ears are deaf. (12) pHty Hr Aq wrd ib.i Strength is perishing, my heart is weary. **Hr Aq = Hr-Infinitive again. The sentence is divided into two clauses again. (13) r gr n mdw.n.f (16) ib tmw n sxA.n.f sf The mouth is silent, it does not speak. The heart withers (deteriorates), it does not remember yesterday. ** r gr n mdw.n.f = Stative, and then the negated Perfect 'n sDm.n.f'. Negation of the narrative verb has present meaning. Allen (18.15) says the negated perfect normally has the connotation of inability ("without being able to speak"). This would be an adverb clause. The negated perfect can also be an independent statement ("it cannot speak.") The heart was considered the seat of intelligence, so is associated with memory. 'tmw' translates as perishes or ceases, but I though that sounded a bit too final, withers or deteriorates is a bit more drawn out over time. (17) qs mn n.f n Aww (18) bw nfr xpr m bw bin The bones have been painful for him for a long time. Beauty has changed into evil. (19) dpt nbt Smt (20) irt iAw n rmT (21) bin m xt nbt All taste is gone. What old age does to people is evil in all things. (22) fnd DbA n ssn.n.f (23) n Tnw aHa Hmst The nose is blocked, it cannot breathe. There is no difference, standing or sitting. **n ssn.n.f = 'it cannot breathe'. I'd say this is another negated perfect. Tnw = generally used with numbers and counting, or each and every time. Faulkner has 'tnw' as a variant spelling (p.305). Also 'Tnt' - difference between x and y. So I think this fits here with standing or sitting (each position - x and y). m Htp Jenny ============================================================================== From: "Brian Yare" To: "'Ancient Egyptian Language List'" Subject: RE: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 16:41:39 +0100 Sorry to arrive late on the scene. This is not a completely serious suggestion, but please look at Rawlinson, Hardwicke D. (1892) Notes for the Nile, together with a Metrical Rendering of the Hymns of Ancient Egypy and of the Precepts of Ptah-hotep (the Oldest Book in the World). You won't find hieroglyths, transliteration or even a word-for-word translation, but you will have a good read! As always, Yare Egyptology have made it available as a pdf document on CD-ROM Brian Yare ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 19:56:06 +1100 Hi Bob, I'd love to hear your questions about later maxims. I'm sure that will be fine to talk about the specific things that interest you, before we get to them in the main translation. Jenny ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Myers" > Also, Ms. Carrington et al, would it be okay to ask questions about > PtahHotep from later maxims before we get to the full coverage? I think I > have some fairly interesting questions. > Bob ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 16:10:59 -0500 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep Jenny Carrington wrote: > > Hi Bob, > I'd love to hear your questions about later maxims. I'm sure that will > be fine to talk about the specific things that interest you, before we > get to them in the main translation. > > Jenny Thanks, so much. I have been wondering how to get a flawless rendering of lines 573 and 574: dwA rxi r smt.f iw wxAi mDd.f Is it: The morning of the wise one will be his reestablisment While the fool will become laden or maybe: In the morning, the wise one will reinvent himself But the fool is destined to get pushed around ? Sorry if that sounds naive. I am wondering if iw...mDd.f is a iw sDm.f type of construction that could indicate a future, continuing action, or something like that? Bob ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2009 16:23:54 -0500 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep Oops; my apologies: (in JSesh MdC) dwA&A&ra-r:x:Y1-A1-r-s-mn:n:t-Y1:f dwA rxi r smnt.f i-w-w&x-xA-A-G37-A1-m-D&d-Aa24-A24-f iw wxAi mDd.f ==============================================================================