From: "Jenny Carrington" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Ptahhotep Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 16:33:21 +1000 Hi Bob, >How about the first section of PtahHotep?< That sounds like a good place to start. What is your source for the hieroglyphic text? I found it online at: Hieroglyphic text of the Maxims of Good Discourse of Papyrus Prisse, Papyri BM & the Carnarvon Tablet by Zbynek Zába (1956). http://www.maat.sofiatopia.org/zaba01.htm Die Lehre des Ptahhotep (with transliteration and translation in German). http://www.astrodoc.net/andere/Ptahhotep/ptahhotep.htm The Instruction of Ptahhotep (hieroglyphic text easy to print and work from). http://www.africawithin.com/kemit/instruction_of_ptahhotep.htm m Htp Jenny ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 23:03:43 +0100 Subject: Re: AEL "The Doomed Prince" Translation Critique: Let's Move On! From: Mark-Jan Nederhof To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Now that people seem to have calmed down, I have no desire to suggest I'm taking sides and stir things up again. But let me make an observation from a different perspective. Literary translations of hieroglyphic texts benefit from having a justification. This holds both for students trying to learn the language and the writing system, and for scholars. It is highly unsatisfactory to be given a translation by a famous Egyptologist with proof-by-intimidation as only argument: "That's what (s)he says, and (s)he's famous, so better believe it!" A free or paraphrasing translation, which tries to convey not only the meaning in the strict sense but also the 'flavour' or 'style' of the original, can be justified in several ways. One is to give a very literal translation as intermediate step, translating grammatical patterns in rigid ways, so that the reader can recognise the grammatical analysis easily from that translation. An alternative or complementary justification can be given in terms of transliteration and grammatical annotation. We can put all these together with the hieroglyphic and the literary translation in one intermediate form. It is this that I've tried to do with the tool that I've advertised recently. The suggestion to do Ptahhotep seems a good idea. I wonder whether we can use my tool. A very much more primitive version was used in 2000-2002 to translate the Eloquent Peasant, resulting in: http://www.rostau.org.uk/ep/EPAlign/Peasant/guest0.html The latest version of the tool would also result in an interlinear representation, but much more elegant, and it allows easier input, using a graphical user interface. The advantage of using such a tool is that it is easier to compare different analyses. The disadvantage is that one may be tempted simply to upload ones translations instead of entering into discussions with each other, whereas the latter is what makes the AEL list so useful and so much fun. Either way, I can't remember any joint translation effort since 2002 that attracted so much interest, and perhaps we should try to revive the enthusiasm we had then. However, there are some technical problems to be solved before my tool can be used for distributed translation efforts. These technical problems are relatively straightforward (basic PHP, SQL and JAVA stuff), but as this is the first week of semester for me, I cannot afford to spend too much time on this at the moment. If there's any techie out there who wants to help me, that would speed things up. Cheers, Mark-Jan ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 18:59:20 -0500 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL Transliterations of PtahHotep At Digital Egypt: http://www.digitalegypt.ucl.ac.uk/literature/ptahhotep.html At The Hieroglyphica Project (for registered users): http://www.hieroglyphica.com/download_file.php?object_type=egyptian_text&object_id=177&back=%2Fegyptian_texts.php%3Fgroup_id%3D4&back_txt=to+Egyptian+Texts ============================================================================== Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2009 11:43:16 -0500 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Ptahhotep Jenny Carrington wrote: > > Hi Bob, >> How about the first section of PtahHotep?< > > That sounds like a good place to start. > > What is your source for the hieroglyphic text? > I found it online at: > > Hieroglyphic text of the Maxims of Good Discourse of Papyrus Prisse, > Papyri BM & the Carnarvon Tablet by Zbynek Zába (1956). > http://www.maat.sofiatopia.org/zaba01.htm > > Die Lehre des Ptahhotep (with transliteration and translation in German). > http://www.astrodoc.net/andere/Ptahhotep/ptahhotep.htm > > The Instruction of Ptahhotep (hieroglyphic text easy to print and work > from). > http://www.africawithin.com/kemit/instruction_of_ptahhotep.htm > > m Htp > Jenny > > > > Hi, Ms. Carrington; I downloaded the images of Zaba from sofiatopia.org a few years ago, and have been working from them. The German site has those images of the papyrus preceding the transcriptions, and makes for an instructive comparison for more alert students than myself. A typeset of P. Prisse (with a few interesting and possibly mistaken differences from Zaba) was published by Budge in 1896, with vocabulary in: http://www.amazon.com/Egyptian-Hieroglyphic-Reading-Book-Beginners/dp/0486274861/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254155003&sr=1-1 Dr. Panov has the original hieratic manuscript facsimile for PDF download for members at his Hieroglyphica site: http://www.hieroglyphica.com/download.php?order_by_desc=memo My amateur effort for Maxim 1 is posted on a blog as a PNG at: http://bubbahotep111.livejournal.com/40666.html In cases where there appears (to me) a mistake or overly abbreviated spelling in the original, I have made small modifications to my transcription, hopefully for ease of study. Best regards, Bob ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2009 10:49:11 +1000 Hi All, To keep it simple I am using the complete Middle Kingdom Papyrus Prisse only, the other fragments date from the New Kingdom. So here are my first few lines of transliteration, translation and notes. I look forward to the contribution of other members. sbAyt nt imy-r niwt TAty ptH-Htp The teaching of the Overseer of the City, the Vizier Ptahhotep xr Hm n nsw-bity issi anx Dt r nHH Under the majesty of the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Isesi, (given) everlasting life for eternity. ** anx Dt r nHH - I seem to remember this formula sometimes having 'di' at the beginning, and it makes sense to me that he is 'given' everlasting life by the gods. imy-r niwt TAty ptH-Htp Dd.f iTy nb.i The Overseer of the City, Vizier Ptahhotep, he said, Sovereign, my Lord, tni xpr iAw hAw The old man has come into being, old age has descended. **Subject-Stative construction where the subject (noun) is placed before the intransitive verb for emphasis. See Allen pp. 204, 226. Stative uses intransitive verbs, Perfect uses transitive. wgg iw iHw Hr mAw Feebleness has come, weakness is renewing. **"Weakness is renewing" - like when he was a young child. Hr + infinitive, (expresses action in progress), often used in conjunction with Stative, (completed action). m Htp Jenny ============================================================================== Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2009 17:46:04 -0600 Subject: Re: AEL flash cards for Egyptian--If You Really Want To From: Stan Thomas To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Here are several Anki flashcard decks. http://www.xmission.com/~sbthomas/anki/anki.html http://ichi2.net/anki/ -Stan ============================================================================== Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 15:15:53 +0200 From: Serge Rosmorduc To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: AEL JSesh 2.12 Yet another version of JSesh, my free hieroglyphique editor :) This time, you will get the "W" family, plus... (drums....) shading made with standard lines, a feature lot of people have asked for. For more information, go to http://jsesh.qenherkhopeshef.org/node/1402 Best regards, S. Rosmorduc ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 18:40:23 -0500 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List , megaera@uchicago.edu, markjan.nederhof@googlemail.com, Vincent Euverte , pd@twonotes.us Subject: AEL Study Guides with Text, Transliteration, and Translation Hi; Here is a letter from Mr. Dickson from a couple of years back. His study guide for Sinuhe presents text, transliteration, and translation together in a way that is a sort of Egyptian version of the Loeb Classical Library format: > > To help me in my own studies I prepared a different arrangement of Jon J > > Hirst's translation of Sinuhe (that is the version you see at Jenny > > Carrington's web site) that puts the hieroglyphics, transliteration, and > > translations side by side on each page. This makes jumping back and > > forth much easier. You can cover part of the page with another piece of > > paper and then see how well you are doing. > > > > With the kind permissions of Jenny Carrington and Jon Hirst I can make > > this available to everyone interested. You can get the 56 page PDF file > > here: > > http://www.twonotes.us/hg/Sinuhe.pdf > > It is about 1.5 MB in size. > > > > -Paul Dickdon > > Mark-Jan Nederhof wrote: > An alternative or complementary justification can be given > in terms of transliteration and grammatical annotation. > We can put all these together with the hieroglyphic and > the literary translation in one intermediate form. > It is this that I've tried to do with the tool that I've > advertised recently. > > The suggestion to do Ptahhotep seems a good idea. I wonder > whether we can use my tool. A very much more primitive > version was used in 2000-2002 to translate the Eloquent Peasant, > resulting in: > > http://www.rostau.org.uk/ep/EPAlign/Peasant/guest0.html > > The latest version of the tool would also result in an > interlinear representation, but much more elegant, and it > allows easier input, using a graphical user interface. > > The advantage of using such a tool is that it is easier to > compare different analyses. The disadvantage is that one > may be tempted simply to upload ones translations instead > of entering into discussions with each other, whereas > the latter is what makes the AEL list so useful and > so much fun. > > Either way, I can't remember any joint translation effort > since 2002 that attracted so much interest, and perhaps > we should try to revive the enthusiasm we had then. > > However, there are some technical problems to be solved > before my tool can be used for distributed translation efforts. > These technical problems are relatively straightforward > (basic PHP, SQL and JAVA stuff), but as this is the first > week of semester for me, I cannot afford to spend too > much time on this at the moment. If there's any techie out > there who wants to help me, that would speed things up. > > Cheers, > Mark-Jan > *** On my latest visit to the Rosetta Project, I noticed that Mr. Euverte has a section of texts that display in such a fashion. The visitor can even chose from three different hieroglyphic fonts in which the text is to be displayed. Also, until your tool is fully functioning in the way you envision, we can always use JSesh to create our own study guides at home, then keep them handy for the day when a more interactive engine is perfected, then choose from among the best or most pertinent to a certain discussion. Whenever I try to make a closer examination of a text (especially one for which I know of no translation), I do a TTT typeset (text, transliteration, translation) to which I can refer. But, as Ms. Lorenz noted, such a document might be very useful for other students if it could be posted and shared. At your AE Align site, you have a wonderful corpus of transliterations with translations. At his database on the web and packaged with JSesh, Prof. Rosmorduc has an ever growing selection of typeset Egyptian texts. Sincerely, Bob ============================================================================== From: "Henri Doranlo" To: "Ancient Egyptian Language List" Subject: AEL Rennes Egypto New Website Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 19:04:33 +0200 Happy to annonce a new website "Rennes Egypto", created by Rennes Egyptologie, actually in French, next year translated in English (I hope) http://rennesegypto.free.fr/ The website is specialised in Middle Egyptian language and all works are available in PDF Best regards, Henri ============================================================================== Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 14:25:18 +0100 Subject: AEL Re: Study Guides with Text, Transliteration, and Translation From: Mark-Jan Nederhof To: Ancient Egyptian Language List On Sun, Oct 4, 2009 at 12:40 AM, Robert Myers wrote: > > Perhaps something along the lines of a transliteration, > followed by a close (I think literal is not exactly the right > word for what is usually produced at this stage) translation > with detailed grammatical analysis, discussion and commentary, > followed ultimately by a group-produced polished translation? > If the entire process were then published in some accessible > place, it could provide an amazingly useful study aid for > future students. (Of course, if something like this already > exists and I just don't know about it, let me know!) > Megaera Lorenz University of Chicago > The pointer to the Eloquent Peasant on the AEL website I gave earlier contains at least part of this. The software allowed different contributors to upload their interpretations with transliteration, translation and footnotes. What we did not do back then is to force a consensus where people disagreed, so there was no single, ultimate, polished group translation. I don't think that's bad, and where people agree to disagree one should not get stuck but simply move on to the next few phrases. The uncertainties in translation (e.g. compare Lichtheim's and Parkinson's) are interesting in their own right. Another thing that was different from the scenario described by Megaera is that the actual discussion (the most important part of the exercise in my opinion) is kept as posts distributed over the AEL archives, so separately from the interlinear format. I think it is very important that the discussion be in a free text format, not constrained (i.e. not hindered) by any software tool. In the efforts on the Eloquent Peasant about 8 years ago, the uploaded translations were part of the posts in a human-readible format and so ended up in the archives as well. With the new tool, this particular feature is not so easy anymore, but this is compensated by a better appearance of the interlinear format, in combination with a more user-friendly way of composing translations. > To help me in my own studies I prepared a different arrangement of Jon J > > Hirst's translation of Sinuhe (that is the version you see at Jenny > > Carrington's web site) that puts the hieroglyphics, transliteration, and > > translations side by side on each page. This makes jumping back and > forth > much easier. You can cover part of the page with another piece of > paper > and then see how well you are doing. > > With the kind permissions of Jenny > Carrington and Jon Hirst I can make > this available to everyone interested. > You can get the 56 page PDF file > here: > > http://www.twonotes.us/hg/Sinuhe.pdf > It is about 1.5 MB in size. > > > -Paul Dickdon > > This is an excellent resource. However, with my tool a far superior and more flexible format can be produced. See for example the Eloquent Peasant at: http://www.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/~mjn/egyptian/texts/ (Either look at the PDF or run the applet.) Not only do we see hieroglyphic, transliteration and translation closer together, we can also compare different manuscripts. The open-source software allows anyone to create such formats themselves. Sorry if I'm sounding like a salesman. At your AE Align site, you have a wonderful corpus of transliterations with > translations. Thank you for your kind words. In fact, some texts now also have hieroglyphic, composed using a graphical editor. There is also an automatic conversion from MdC to my format, although that generally requires post-editing. The main advantage of my hieroglyphic encoding is that it is much simpler, more uniform and yet more powerful than MdC, and is to a large extent independent of the font, which enhances the life expectancy of encodings. Sorry for sounding like a salesman again. As to when my tool will be ready for group-translations, I don't want to make promises. So far I received one generous offer of help, which might speed things up, but my teaching obligations currently put a damper on progress. By the way, my tool can already be used to encode translations, but what is still missing is a Web infrastructure to combine contributions from different people automatically and store them in a central place. Regards, Mark-Jan ============================================================================== From: "Jenny Carrington" To: "AEL" Subject: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2009 07:19:37 +1000 Hi All, To keep it simple I am using the complete Middle Kingdom Papyrus Prisse only, the other fragments date from the New Kingdom. So here are my first few lines of transliteration, translation and notes. I look forward to the contribution of other members. sbAyt nt imy-r niwt TAty ptH-Htp The teaching of the Overseer of the City, the Vizier Ptahhotep xr Hm n nsw-bity issi anx Dt r nHH Under the majesty of the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Isesi, (given) everlasting life for eternity. ** anx Dt r nHH - I seem to remember this formula sometimes having 'di' at the beginning, and it makes sense to me that he is 'given' everlasting life by the gods. imy-r niwt TAty ptH-Htp Dd.f iTy nb.i The Overseer of the City, Vizier Ptahhotep, he said, Sovereign, my Lord, tni xpr iAw hAw The old man has come into being, old age has descended. **Subject-Stative construction where the subject (noun) is placed before the intransitive verb for emphasis. See Allen pp. 204, 226. Stative uses intransitive verbs, Perfect uses transitive. wgg iw iHw Hr mAw Feebleness has come, weakness is renewing. **"Weakness is renewing" - like when he was a young child. Hr + infinitive, (expresses action in progress), often used in conjunction with Stative, (completed action). m Htp Jenny ============================================================================== Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2009 11:25:45 -0500 From: Robert Myers To: Ancient Egyptian Language List Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep Hi; My freshman year, I was in a seminar where one young lady never failed to make the rest of the class groan with the simplicity of her questions in class. Yet, when examination time came, she made the best grades. This made me think about the value of "dumb" questions. Please forgive me if I ask a few, if this discussion moves forward. Jenny Carrington wrote: > > Hi All, > > To keep it simple I am using the complete Middle Kingdom Papyrus > Prisse only, the other fragments date from the New Kingdom. So here > are my first few lines of transliteration, translation and notes. I > look forward to the contribution of other members. > The other main papyrus (in the British Museum?) used by Devaud seems to supply us with lines that the editor of P. Prisse perhaps found superfluous? At rare times, though, there seem to be a few that actually clarify. At some point, I would be very interested if someone could comment on whether the verbal constructions and variant vocabulary of the second manuscript might actually suggest a later date than P. Prisse, whose date of origin has been often questioned. > > sbAyt nt imy-r niwt TAty ptH-Htp > The teaching of the Overseer of the City, the Vizier Ptahhotep Some transliterate imy-rA, but because of the Arabic word, _emir_, I am thinking imy-r is better. > > xr Hm n nsw-bity issi anx Dt r nHH > Under the majesty of the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Isesi, (given) > everlasting life for eternity. > > ** anx Dt r nHH - I seem to remember this formula sometimes having > 'di' at the beginning, and it makes sense to me that he is 'given' > everlasting life by the gods. Grammatically, is it possible that this (as is) could mean, "Living forever, unto eternity"? > > imy-r niwt TAty ptH-Htp Dd.f iTy nb.i > The Overseer of the City, Vizier Ptahhotep, he said, Sovereign, my Lord, > > > tni xpr iAw hAw > The old man has come into being, old age has descended. > > **Subject-Stative construction where the subject (noun) is placed > before the intransitive verb for emphasis. See Allen pp. 204, 226. > Stative uses intransitive verbs, Perfect uses transitive. Would a present tense rendering be feasible, like, "Maturity manifests and old age arrives"? > wgg iw iHw Hr mAw > Feebleness has come, weakness is renewing. > > **"Weakness is renewing" - like when he was a young child. > Hr + infinitive, (expresses action in progress), often used in > conjunction with Stative, (completed action). I don't know if this would be technically fitting, but I have, "Misery and weakness return afresh." wgg seems to suggest various kinds of strain for which the subject is not fully prepared, perhaps including the kind encountered by a tired man attempting to rise from sleep. Please be generous with criticism, as I would really love to arrive at the best possible translation. > m Htp > Jenny ============================================================================== From: "Marianne Luban" Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 19:06:06 GMT To: AEgyptian-L@rostau.org.uk Subject: Re: AEL Teachings of Ptahhotep ---------- Original Message ---------- From: "Jenny Carrington" >To keep it simple I am using the complete Middle Kingdom Papyrus Prisse >only, the other fragments date from the New Kingdom. So here are my first >few lines of transliteration, translation and notes. I look forward to the >contribution of other members. Hi, Jenny--I have a hieroglyphic version here but can see, at the outset, that it's not the same as the one you're using. Can you or someone indicate the URL for the pPrisse again so we can all agree? Marianne Luban http://thetimetravelerreststop.blogspot.com/ ==============================================================================